Kurald Galain wrote:
Read the guide.... Cleric can get AC very easily (and in actual fact can get 2 AC via Animal and Scalykind domains) and still have another domain to play with, has much better buffing capability, better AC, better race options, better in-combat healing The only advantage Druid has is wildshape and even that can be replicated partially by spells. There are several Cleric domain abilities that make excellent combat boosters. You have to remember the ratings have a minimum level and maximum level.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Being that I am the one doing the Cleric stuff can you take out the scores for Critters and Utility since I haven't actually done them yet! And regarding Combat, I genuinely think there is only a hair's breadth difference between Cleric and Druid at the maximum end. And quite possibly they are equal (as stated in the guide). Cleric gets better weapons, armour, race options and Combat spells for starters, and has more ways of healing themselves in combat effectively. A Cleric can also access an AC easily too. Throw in all the various other options outlined in the guide and there really is nothing in it. Also you cant just auto lump Cleric/Oracle together for obvious reasons. To be brutally honest, my Cleric guide must be used as the basis for ALL things Cleric within the document.... no ifs buts or maybes. Its probably one of the most comprehensive on the entire internet. If other people disagree with the assessments in my guide then it is up to them to identify where they think the faults are. It is NOT up to me to constantly have to reference it! In summary... my guide is the Cleric gospel and thus if there are no significant identifiable flaws in a given section, then that's that! Ps Kindly change the Cleric spell list rating to a 9 Cheers
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
The Cleric is bottom tier in control?!? Me thinks someone hasn't read my guide/Bible..... And a quick note - the Cleric spell list has to be rated at 9 not 8. It is the 2nd largest in both quantity and quality and has the advantage over even the Wizard in that the entire spell selection can be changed every day, and finally it is accessed at the earliest level possible (ie a level ahead of spont casters).
Some tweaks to the Blaster and Item sections..... 'Critter Cleric' is up next! Regarding domains - almost any non-Cleric blasting spell can be sourced if you look around which further complicates things when building. And looking at deity choices (see previous): - Shizuru gets you Color Spray (technically a de-buff but worth mentioning, especially since you can cast it spontaneously), Scorching Ray and Prismatic Spray.
So in general here is how I would approach building a ‘blaster Cleric’: First, you have to apply your race template depending on your specific plan. These are my go-to’s: 1) Human - extra feat, great FCB and useful alternate racial abilities
Next apply your archetype. 1) Theologian - all in to the Fire/Ash domain and maxing damage and Wall of Ashes utility, but make sure you incorporate Elemental Spell into your build somehow to give you options as you reach the mid-levels. Thanks to some free MM
Plan your specific feats/traits. 1) Dreamed Secrets - needs good WIS investment for the save, but functions like the Samsaran template, albeit smaller in number but wider in option and applicable to any race. 2) Metamagic reducers - a must have but remember you only get two. IMO for most blast spells it’s not worth giving up more than an extra level in slots for a spell - ie) an Empowered, Elemental Spell Fireball is worth a 4th level slot (factoring in your 2 MM reducers), but an Empowered, Persistent Spell Fireball is not worth a 5th level slot IMO. But hey if you’re going all in then maybe it’s to your taste?! 3) MM feats - yes of course you can buy MM rods to partly get round this, but then that’s another conversation due to cost, availability….etc. Alongside the above, you have Rime Spell (+1) which would pair excellently with Flurry of Snowballs if you were using the Samsaran template. Reach Spell (+1) has many uses and I have found it particularly useful paired with Harm for a Blaster build, since this is on the basic spell list and builds in some extra ability for the mid-levels onwards. Furious Spell (+1) is a good one to pair up with Fireball, granting you a +6 damage bonus to the damage total. 3) Vile domain - getting that Fireball CL higher! 4) Flumefire Rage - now this is only going to be of real worth to the dedicated Fire/Ash domain blaster due to its requirements - ie) CHA 15, Spell Focus, Mage’s Tattoo. Human could well be the best choice to help with the feat cost. Fortunately as a Cleric with your good Fort save, you should be able to avoid the Fatigue (DC 18 for Fireball) - curiously, this point can make this feat more useable for you than a Wiz/Sorc. It does lead onto the further potential tie-in with the spell Rage which can be accessed with a few of the domains/subdomains - although this does then have an action economy cost and also means that you can only cast damaging fire-based spells whilst it’s in effect. But then again +2 hp per die might well be worth it for you build; so it comes down to specifics. Overall, it’s fair to say, if you know what you’re doing, the Cleric can make a very good blaster. HOWEVER, ultimately it can never truly get top tier, even when specialised, when compared to a Wiz/Sorc (whom I view as equal for differing reasons) due to its lack of bonus feats. Having extra feats or specialised blaster Arcane School/Bloodline abilities is what gives them the little bit of extra polish that they need to excel. Obsessing about getting Spell Perfection sorted at 15th level isn't what makes a great Blaster IMO... after all blasting as a method (especially elemental types) begins to decline in efficiency notably past mid-levels. You need to make sure you can do decent damage reliably throughout your PC career. As always though, what makes the Cleric so useful is that even if you do hyper-specialise in a given role within your party, you can still perform many other roles pretty decently as a side-hustle! Void Shard - 250 gp Effect - When you use a void crystal as a material component or focus for a spell of the necromancy school, the target takes a –2 penalty on saves against the spell. A great item for any necro-Cleric and priced reasonably enough to make purchasing and using regularly definitely worthy at mid-high levels.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
My thoughts on this are pretty clear... This whole exercise is about 'Roles' not spell lists. Now for some classes (eg Wizard/Sorceror/Psychic) their ability to perform a given caster role can only be defined by their spell list since they have a very low level of physical ability. However, for other classes their innate physical ability does impact on their ability to perform certain roles - a good example is healing or buffing. Being survivable contributes to your ability to perform the roles.
Here's another..... feedback liked as always! BLASTER Rating: TBC - 9 Another real toughy…. definitely the hardest for me to rate out of the roles. I think first and foremost, to be a good+ blaster, you need to have options from spell levels 1-9. This doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to have loads of blasting spells, more that the spells you do have can cover your likely adventures/encounters for the PC levels 1-20 and be effective with it. Although everybody has read various guides on being a ‘Fireball Wizard/Sorceror specialist…. etc’, even those builds have ways of bullet-proofing themselves against resistances and such, eg) Admixture school for Wizards. And even then once you get into the mid levels and beyond, creatures often have multiple resistances or immunities. So having non-elemental ways of dealing damage becomes increasingly important. In terms of the minimum for a Cleric, it gets a relatively low score, due to lacking direct damage spells in the lower levels (eg. 1-3) in its core list, and in general AOE damaging spells at the mid levels. There are exceptions but in terms of the core list, the Cleric is mainly a single target blaster until mid-high level. However, using Human as the base race template, you do get the excellent +1 vs Outsider SR as your FCB, largely alleviating the need for investing in Spell Penetration feats. Here are the low level spells: Barbed Chains, Inflict Light/Moderate/Serious Wounds, Magic Stone, Admonishing Ray, Deadeye’s Arrow, Eroding Ray, Shard of Chaos, Spear of Purity, Holy Javelin, Iron Stake, Lightning Lash, Screaming Flames, Searing Light, Trial by Fire and Storm of Blades. Things then definitely improve in the mid-levels (4-6), but still lacks any significant AOE damage spells, although the mass inflict spells do at least get around the selectivity problem of some AOE damage spells and are not subject to the more common energy resistances: Chaos Hammer, Inflict Critical Wounds, Fleshworm Infestation, Forceful Strike, Healing Flames, Holy Smite, Order’s Wrath, Positive Pulse, Summoner Conduit, Terrible Remorse, Unholy Blight, Boneshatter, Flame Strike, Mass Inflict Light/Moderate Wounds, Holy/Unholy Ice, Harm, Cold Ice Strike, Elemental Assessor, Hellfire Ray and Undeath to Death. At the higher levels (7-9), the Cleric is basically either as good or better as any other caster, containing both good single target and AOE spells: Destruction, Mass Inflict Serious/Critical Wounds, Umbral Strike, Death Clutch, Earthquake, Fire Storm, Orb of the Void, Implosion, Soulreaver, Stormbolts, Symbol of Death, Canopic Conversion, Cursed Earth, Energy Drain, Massacre, Polar Midnight, Scourge of the Horseman and Storm of Vengeance. Implosion is a very interesting one - on the surface it seems very similar to Wail of the Banshee and could be seen as slightly worse due to the fact that is not an AOE spell, even though due to its long duration can affect many creatures over time. However, it is in fact better for several reasons - WOTB only affects living creatures, is both a Death and Sonic spell (by mid-high level many enemies will be immune or at the minimum have significant resistances) and although AOE, it can only affect any creature once. Implosion, can if the Cleric desires, continue to concentrate on one target and so potentially inflict a minimum 170-200 hp per round for the cost of only 1 spell. It is also an Evocation spell - and since many blast spells are Evocation too, this makes investing in Spell Focus type feats even more worthwhile. And being that it is neither Death or Sonic based, far fewer creatures will have any immunity. TBH IMO by the time you get to higher levels, life-threatening danger is much more likely to come from a BBEG rather than groups of mooks. It is noteworthy that in PF2 it is the Wizard that gets Implosion on its core list, whereas the Cleric is given WOTB. In terms of items to boost blasting then the natural candidates are, MM rods, Wizard’s Hook, Prayer Beads, Candle of Evocation and Incense of Meditation. Now…… at the maximum end, things change dramatically for the Cleric in terms of options! From a race perspective, if you were a Tiefling (like Human) and had been taking + 1 vs outsider SR up to 10th level as your FCB, you would be very likely to overcome any SR you came across. Using the ‘Samsaran template’ you would have a couple of options to boost your blast ability: Hunter - Snowball, Frostbite, Explosion of Rot, Aggressive Thundercloud, Flurry of Snowballs, Pinecomb Bomb, Burst of Nettles, Burning Entanglement, Call Lightning, Ball Lightning and Ice Spears Adept - Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt Aasimar (and Consecrate Spell - Metamagic) has uses for both a Theologian specialist (Fire/Ash) but also an Ecclesitheurge who wants as part of their toolkit to have some extra blasting potential. I would say though the difference between maximised and empowered, isn’t as much as you might think when you actually do the maths: For example, a maximised 10 D6 fireball is 60 hp, but an empowered one is 53.25 hp, so when you factor in that Consecrate Spell is only vs evil creatures and Empowered Spell is vs anyone, in the long run Empowered Spell may be better. On the other hand Aasimar (+2 WIS and +2 CHA/CON/CON) has no ability score downsides and their bonuses are basically ideal for a Cleric.
So you can see when it comes to race choice for a Blaster Cleric it is trcky. For example, It could well be that a Samsaran Ecclesithuerge of Yamatsumi is the most optimal blasting choice if you want to have the best options from l - 9: Burning Hands, Snowball, Fireball, Fire Seeds, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Disintegrate, Explosion of Rot, Burning Entanglement, Flurry of Snowballs, Ball Lightning, Pinecomb Bomb and Polar Ray are now part of your spells…….. ON TOP of all the spells from the Cleric list! You could then take ‘Riming Spell’ and/or ‘Elemental Spell’, ‘Intensified Spell’ MM to improve your effectiveness. Regarding domains - almost any non-Cleric blasting spell can be sourced if you look around which further complicates things when building. And looking at deity choices (see previous): - Shizuru gets you Color Spray (technically a de-buff but worth mentioning, especially since you can cast it spontaneously), Scorching Ray and Prismatic Spray.
Overall, it’s fair to say, if you know what you’re doing, the Cleric can make a very good blaster. HOWEVER, ultimately it can never truly get top tier, even when specialised, when compared to a Wiz/Sorc due to its lack of bonus feats. Having extra feats or specialised blaster Arcane School/Bloodline abilities is what gives them the little bit of extra polish that they need to excel. As always though, what makes the Cleric so useful is that even if you do hyper-specialise in a given role within your party, you can still perform many other roles pretty decently as a side-hustle!
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Your updates are cut/paste in Arkham. Thanks again for the good work. Cheers... much app There was a small omission in the text to be added... Snowball, Wall of Fire, Burning Sands, Thunderstomp, Euphoric Cloud, Wall of Thorns, Aqueous Orb, Thorny Entanglement Snowball provides a nice low-mid level blast/control option as it can be used in conjuction with Rime Spell (and a MM reducer) to get an entangle effect.
Afternoon...... a tweak and a couple of updates - cheers! CONTROL Rating TBC - 10 This was a toughy as ‘Control’ can be a difficult concept to define precisely in order to rate it. However, I gave it a go! IMO ‘Control’ is influenced by mainly spell/SLA/Su options, but also there is a physical component, in that a physically capable PC can have a significant ‘Control’ option too. After all you can’t tell me a suitable optimised martial character (either ranged or melee) doesn’t have an ability to limit an opponent’s options? I have been in several adventures where invisible Ninja’s or sneak-attacking Rogues have wiped out party casters within 2 rounds. A suitably built Dwarven Barbarian is an absolute nightmare opponent for most spellcasters!! Finally, there is also a significant degree of overlap I think between the ‘De-buff’ and ‘Control’ roles. For example, if you are hit with a blindness effect, are you weakened? Yes. Are your options now limited? Yes again. At a minimum, and taking into account the Cleric’s de-buff spells that could also be employed, the following spells could be used: Entropic Shield, Grasping Corpse, Shadow Trap, Stone Shield, Stunning Barrier, Boneshaker, Darkness, Enthrall, Fear the Sun, Shackle, Shatter, Spiritual Weapon, Spiritual Ally, Sun’s Disdain, Zone of Truth, Chain of Perdition, Deeper Darkness, Invisibility Purge, Spotlight, Wall of Bone/Blindness/Deafness/Clockwork/Stone/Split Illumination/Silver, Waveform, Blade Barrier, Constricting Coils, Animate Objects, Forbiddance, Symbol of ……., Control Weather, Glyph of Warding, Cursed Earth, Rift of Ruin, Maw of Chaos and Roaming Pit. At the maximum end, you could for easy starters use the ‘Samsaran template’ and Hunter List to grab any of these: Wall of Fire, Burning Sands, Thunderstomp, Euphoric Cloud, Wall of Thorns, Aqueous Orb, Thorny Entanglement Worshipping Deskari gets you Create Pit and Acid Pit as bonus spells, Hei Feng gets you Gust of Wind and Hydraulic Push, Grandmother Spider gets you Web and I thought about doing a Combat/Control build using Nivi Rhombodazzle with Greater Invisibility - you wander the battlefield invisible causing mayhem with control spells and a bit of smashface! As an Evangelist and Exalted you would get some great boons, including True Strike. As well, there are several options from the domains including, Earth (Caves) giving several of the ‘Pit’ spells, Earth (Metal) giving Wall of Iron, Fire giving Wall of Fire and Wall of Ash, Void (Isolation) giving Wall of Force and Prismatic Wall and Artifice giving Wall of Iron. Oceans subdomain has a very useful control ability in ‘Surge (Su)’. And of course a Cleric of a GOO/OG could fill in a couple of gaps using Dreamed Secrets. TBH my max rating of 10 doesn’t at all mean that I think the Cleric is the best at ‘Control’ amongst the 9th level casters, more that a role-optimised Cleric is as good as anything else out there. What you have to remember is that being able to swap out your entire spell list every day is a big plus point for any role, especially when it is generally regarded as being the 2nd best spell list in the game. With archetypes and items enabling you to swap out domain powers and spells every day too, this only adds to the gravy! Tielfing: Standard is +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma (various options apply) A real out of left field option here, but it does have some potential, albeit in niche circumstances. Out of the sub-races, the following are most apt for a Cleric and offer various possibilities for various build/role types: Asura-Spawn (Faultspawn): +2 Dex, +2 Wis, –2 Int
I particularly like the Hellspawn option for an Asmodean Cleric if only for the homage to ‘Spawn’! But there are some good combat options there too. There are some useful alternate traits too - Fiendish Sprinter, Prehensile Tail, Darklands Guide and Soul Seer being noteworthy; the latter being particularly thematic for any necromantic focussed build. Lastly and crucially, it has the most excellent Cleric FCB of a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders. I’ve never seen a Tiefling Cleric at a table, but there is definite potential here. Water Here the Flotsam subdomain and ‘Sift (Su)’ does give some interesting applications with randomly pulling out scrolls of 1st- 2nd level spells. Due to the broken condition (not broken at 12th level) it uses 2x charges/uses as normal so initially you would have to put twice as many spells on the scroll to compensate. And a UMD check would be needed for any arcane spells. Nevertheless, at 6th level, 300 gp gets you a scroll with 6 effective uses of Mage Armour (1 hr duration) or 3 effective uses (2 hour duration) on it. For a niche Utility build it could well be very useful.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Well then we have a bit of a problem!! My minimum rating doesn't factor in anything except the skeleton of the chassis.... not even armour! Saying a minimum score should reflect "reasonably well-built characters" is highly subjective and certainly not something that can be standardised. Comparing the bare chassis of each class is a lot easier to quantify. This is in essence what the 'Minimum' score is describing... You have a specialised/maximised 'Blaster' of Class X. Even with this specialisation how well could it also still perform in the Heal/Buff/Utility/Combat... etc role? ie) Even in the worst case scenario, what is the class capable of doing in the role X? The only way you can rate this 'minimum ability' is by looking at the bare bone chassis (HD, BAB, spell list.. etc), as this represents its minimum level of capability in any other given role. The bare bones score will vary slightly between different roles because of the nature of the class, Eg) a Cleric will have a significantly higher minimum score in the 'Heal' role than it will in the 'Blaster' role, due to its spell list not having as many blast spells as heal/condition removal and having a more survivable chassis, which is more useful in the 'Heal' role as you will need to be able to get to your allies if they are in need of help. My logic is sound. As it stands all of my Cleric minimum scores would need increasing if we used your metric! This would be very misleading IMO. Until we get some sort of agreement between all the contributors, could you remove all the minimum scores from my guide please. If we're not all singing from the same hymn sheet then any rating is pointless! Cheers
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Cheers.....a Tiefling Cleric probably isn't going to make that much of an impact on any build, but the ability to grab the alternative FCB, still get a +2 on WIS, as well as some interesting options.....eg) Prehensile Tail for permanent wand carrying or Soul Seer (enormously thematic for any necromancer/Undead Lord) certainly warrants a mention. I put it in the next update. LOL....The fact that one of the Subraces is actually a 'Hellspawn' is great just by itself! Todd McFarlane would be proud!
A couple of tweaks/additions and the latest chunk.... Human: Floating +2 Humans are a popular choice for Clerics, especially since they receive Bonus Feat and Skilled. In a class that is both feat and skill starved this is always a solid choice. Overall, a Human can be used for any of the roles and in particular ones that would benefit from the extra feat (eg Critters, Blaster). Also Clerics are unique amongst the classes in that they can receive a very good alternative FCB if they are Human, namely: Add a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders. This is excellent since Spell Resistance is one of the banes of a caster’s life at higher levels, and this massively increases your casting potency. And you don’t have to take it every level either to reap its benefits……… An often overlooked bonus. Suitable archetypes: All and probably especially so with more feat intensive options like Herald Caller, Theologian, Ecclesitheurge. Divine Scourge An interesting archetype, attempting to introduce a ‘Witchy/Hex’ element into the Cleric class - in reality it gives up too much/too restrictive for what it receives in return…… a common theme with many Cleric archetypes! HOWEVER, if you are determined to become a specialist de-buffer Cleric then there are some plus points: 1) By RAW a worshipper of any deity can take it
Overall, a bit like Blossoming Light in that you give up too much to become a specialist. The only real highlights for me are the ability to pick up ‘Slumber’ and ‘Evil Eye’ hexes at the lower levels which are good, but you could probably do a better de-buff build using other methods. It’s OK, but a bit…. MEH! Death Here the ‘Undead’ subdomain gets you ‘Ghoul Touch’ and ‘Enervation’ as useful domain spells and ‘Death’s Kiss (Su)’ enables you at 1st level to start healing from Neg. Channelling if you want to. Solid for any Necromancer/De-buff build and a natural fit for Undead Lord. DE-BUFF Rating 7 - 9 At a minimum, although the Cleric spell list may not have the sheer volume of de-buff spells that the Wiz list does or the innate breadth/depth of hexes of the Witch, the ones it does have a very good. Bane, Barbed Chains, Burning Disarm, Command (+Greater), Doom, Forbid Action (+Greater), Hallucinogenic Smoke, Murderous Command, Ray of Sickening, Hold Person, Silence, Burst of Radiance, Chains of Light, Archon’s Aura, Bestow Curse (+Major), Charitable Impulse, Light of Iomedae, Prayer, Debilitating Portent, Plane Shift, Symbol of Sleep/Pain, Wall of Blindness/Deafness, Banishment, Plague Storm, Wither Limb, Archon’s Trumpet, Energy Drain, Anti-Life Shell, Anti-Magic Field, Source Severance and Holy Word/Blasphemy are all very solid spells that cover the full range of levels. From a maximising perspective, and from my own personal experience, the following can not only be encounter-ending at their appropriate levels, but in certain cases definitely worth investing in MM feats/traits (eg Persistent Spell, Reach Spell). Burning Disarm, Silence, Burst of Radiance, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Greater Forbid Action, Plane Shift, Holy Word/Blasphemy. As well, Investing in CL boosting feats/traits/items and using Holy Word/Blasphemy can basically trivialise encounters, especially if you’re a Human Cleric utilising the alternative FCB. On a different approach, Variant Channelling offers the possibility of Rulership and its ‘Dazing Channel’ harm effect, although this does require a specialist negative channeller to work properly which can be tricky in terms of return in investment (outside of Undead Lord). Using the ‘Samsaran template’ and the Hunter spell list can boost your lower level de-buff options with any of the following: Entangle, Hydraulic Push, Ice Slick, Sickening Entanglement, Earth Tremor, Blast of Wind, Geyser Several domains and deities (see previous section) offer some excellent de-buff boosters - here are some examples: Fire(Ash) - Wall of Ashes. Simply excellent. A great supernatural effect that because it auto-scales as you level up, is in many ways superior to similar spells. A mass blinding effect with counter-invisibility and line of sight blocking ability, that is unlikely to run out of uses in an adventuring day - its better than many of the hexes available. Madness - Vision of Madness. Everyone knows about this - a no save ability that auto scales. It’s only drawback, the need for melee touch, is negated in the famous/infamous Divine Paragon of Tsukiyo build, turning it into a multi-target hell spell for anyone on the receiving end! Sun (Light) - Blinding Flash. A great AOE ability straight from Level 1 that will be very useful for targeting mooks and thus saving spells. In summary, a Cleric can make a very good de-buffer in several ways. Overall a Witch will on average have the wider variety of options through the levels due to the fact that their hexes give such great mileage, but a specialist Cleric will run them close thanks to the basic spell list having some excellent options alongside all the other stuff. A Divine Scourge possibly gives it a bit of a boost, but overall it’s a marginal call in terms of its worth as an archetype.
Here's another...... feedback/agree/disagree always welcome! BUFF Rating: 7 - 10 At a minimum, many of the spells that can be directly useful in the ‘Combat’ role also apply to a ‘Buff’ role. In addition, amongst others, spells like Spell Resistance, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Defending Bone, Effortless Armour, Profane Nimbus, Instrument of Agony, Life Bubble, Weapon of Awe, Second Wind, Spell Immunity and Death Ward are also of use to yourself or others. Since part of ‘Buffing’ involves keeping allies optimal during a combat, I would also include the ‘Mass’ healing spells and ones like Infernal/Celestial healing in this list. In short, you will always have a solid ability to buff yourself and others, irrespective of your build priorities or character set-up. To illustrate the Cleric’s ability at the maximum end of the scale, I have chosen the Varisian/Devout Pilgrim as my example. As previously discussed this archetype has extremely useful ability in the ‘Buffing’ role due to its Caravan Bond and Harrow skills. Various domain abilities have a strong ‘anti-debuff’ effect, and since this is akin to buffing someone as it makes them very hard to take down in combat, the ability to hand these out at range to your allies is very useful. Other abilities like ‘Copycat’, ‘Dimension Hop’, ‘Enlarge’, ‘Vision of Madness’, ‘Bit of Luck’, ‘Adoration’. ‘Destructive Smite’ or ‘Fury of the Abyss’ can now make for some excellent party buffing. And as many of these are 3+WIS/day you can get plenty of mileage without even touching your spell slots, especially if you choose a race that gives extra uses of domain abilities (eg Dwarf or Elf). As well if you wanted it, the Foundation of Faith archetype stacks with it, thus providing the potential for some easy in-combat healing for your allies! And being that you don’t necessarily have to max-out on WIS for this build type, then choosing a race like Catfolk to gain access to the amazing spell ‘Nine Lives’ could be worth it if you knew you’d get some high level play in. The cherry on the cake is ‘Blessing of the Harrow’ (for yourself or an ally) at 8th level which replaces your choice of an 8th level domain power: Blessing of the Harrow (Su): Once per day, a harrower may perform a harrowing for herself and all allies within 20 feet of her. This harrowing takes 10 minutes, and allies to be affected by it must remain within 20 feet of the harrower for the entire time. At the conclusion of the harrowing, count up the number of cards from each suit that were used in the reading. This harrowing provides a bonus based upon the suit with the most cards showing. In case of a tie, choose one suit. The bonus lasts for 24 hours. The suits grant insight bonuses as follows. Strength: +1 on attack rolls; Dexterity: +1 to AC; Constitution: +1 on weapon damage rolls; Intelligence: +1 on all skill checks; Wisdom: +1 on all saving throws; Charisma: +1 on caster level and concentration checks. Varisian Pilgrim must be one of the most (if not the most) under the radar archetypes in the entire game.
A tweak and another section for you all..... thoughts always welcome! Consecrate Spell (Metamagic) Prerequisites: Aasimar, able to prepare or cast consecrate. Phenomonal for an Aasimar Cleric and definitely throws in another race option for a Theologian. Since it only uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher, instead of the normal 3, it means that it can be metamagic reduced down to evens. Being able to cast Maximised Fireballs from Level 5 against anything evil is very good indeed. Stacked with Idealist (Plane of Fire) and with Spell Specialisation and you can be throwing out auto 72 hp Fireballs at 8th level……. Oooooouuuuuuch. HEAL Rating: 8 - 10 Firstly, I would include ‘Condition Removal’ as part of a ‘Healing’ builds parameters.
The following gives an overview of the various channel options available: At 5th level, the Angelfire Apostle can spend two uses of his channel energy ability to cast remove blindness/deafness or lesser restoration as a spell-like ability. At 7th level, he can choose remove disease or remove paralysis. At 9th level, he can choose neutralize poison. At 11th level, he can choose breath of life. At 13th level, he can choose heal. At 15th level, he can choose regenerate. At 17th level, he can choose restoration but cannot affect permanent negative levels. At 19th level, he can choose resurrection but can affect only a target that has been dead no more than 1 round per his cleric level. When you throw on Variant Channelling (and Channelling Variance) you are the undisputed Healing/Condition Removal monster.
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Great minds think alike!... I was thinking that the other day too! Here is a start on the rating section, it would be interesting to get feedback on the logic behind it. I do feel that how I've dealt with the 'minimum end of the range' bit is the correct methodology for the 9th level casters in general, as you have to look at it as a 'bare bones' idea. RATINGS Finally we reach the end! This section I found very tricky to complete due to the aforementioned numerous interactions between all the components of ‘the Cleric’.
For example, thinking of the Cleric in the ‘Combat’ role and looking at the minimum end of the range: You have the spell list, human, D8 hp/level, ¾ BAB, minimum of 2+ INT skill points/level, good FORT and WIS, poor REFLEX and a choice of +1 hp/+1 skill point/level. Nothing else can be factored in since these can all vary enormously, and/or be traded out via a specific archetype. However, and this is key, for the upper/maximum end of the range, everything is factored in since if you were specifically building a ‘Combat Cleric’ then you would be looking to modify all the variables in order to perform optimally. COMBAT Rating: 6 - 9 At a minimum the Cleric can have an effective D10 HD/level and have good levels in the 2 most important saves. As a ¾ BAB full caster it is able to hit in melee reasonably OK in the low to mid-levels and have no trouble at all with touch attacks.
At the maximum, the Cleric is right at the top of the tree for 9th level casters. It has the best basic chassis for combat, best basic spell list for a combat built caster, and due to the possible combos can be potent in melee or ranged combat. For example, a fully armoured Dwarf Vanilla Cleric with Animal and Liberation domains can have an AC tiger, be virtually “un-debuffable” with very good AC, hp and saves. Or you have a Cleric of Erastil with Animal and Plant and start with Enlarge Person antics and/or flying around on a Roc using a Longbow with Erastil’s Blessing - both could be enhanced with Foundation of Faith for on-tap in-combat healing. As you have seen, there are numerous other possible combat permutations - eg) use of Mirror Image or Samsaran for extra combat spells from Inquisitor. I am sorely tempted to give it full marks, but both Oracle and Druid can make excellent Combat builds too, so I was uncertain. Its very close though.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
No problem - cheers for the work! A couple of tweaks and the latest batch of stuff...... the end is in sight!! Phylactery of Positive/Negative Channeling - 11,000 gp If your GM is allowing slots to have more than one ability, then fine go for it, but even then IMO only if you are a focussed channeling archetype or an Undead Lord. Otherwise a WIS headband will overall give you more power in the long run. Channeling Armour - 18,000 gp A shield with this special ability is crafted to resemble an angel or other outsider holding a basin of some sort, and is engraved with holy symbols. The shield is keyed to either positive or negative energy when it is crafted. If the bearer can channel energy of the keyed type, three times per day he can increase the total number of dice of channeled energy by 1. The wearer also reduces any damage taken from energy of the type opposed to the keyed type by 10 points. Pricey, but definitely worth considering if you’re an Undead Lord. FEATS AND TRAITS Dreamed Secrets Already mentioned - an excellent choice for any pure caster-focussed Cleric. Well worth maxing out your WILL save for. Interesting back story on it - it was apparently devised by none other than James Jacobs himself, who is a big fan of Lovecraft. The feat is technically PFS legal, but due to the bizarre mess up by Paizo with making GOO/OG worship non-PFS, it has become non-PFS friendly, despite having an entire AP (Strange Aoens) dedicated to the genre…. What a mess! Consecrate Spell (Metamagic) Prerequisites: Aasimar, able to prepare or cast consecrate. Phenomonal for an Aasimar Cleric and definitely throws in another race option for a Theologian. Since it only uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher, instead of the normal 3, it means that it can be metamagic reduced down to evens. Being able to cast Maximised Fireballs from Level 5 against anything evil is very good indeed. Stacked with Idealist (Plane of Fire) and with Spell Specialisation and and you can be throwing out 120 hp Fireballs at 8th level……. Oooooouuuuuuch. Elemental Spell (Metamagic) If you’re going full on ‘Fireball Cleric’ then you really do need to pick this one up to give you that much needed versatility. Improved Initiative Always a solid choice for any caster, or pretty much any player TBH. Reactionary Similar reasons to the above. Sacred Summons Yes it does restrict your summoning options, but not massively so. And most summoning builds would want to utilise Summon Good/Evil/Neutral Monster anyway which does mitigate the restrictions and provide some extras (eg Diehard feat). There aren’t many classes that can get standard action summons, and as a general rule it’s better to get extra bodies on the field quickly than get slightly more powerful bodies slower. As well, many deities provide bonus summoned creature options for Clerics. Augment Summons Yes you get this free as a Herald Caller, but potentially still worth the investment (+ the Spell Focus pre-requisite) for other Cleric builds. Vile Domain Your connection with a malignant force has granted you great power. Choose a domain granted by an evil aligned deity, such as an archdevil, demon lord, or Great Old One. You gain a +1 trait bonus to your caster level when casting spells that are granted by that domain. Very under the radar trait - now here’s the crafty bit, it would require getting the ‘Extra Traits’ feat as both of your initial traits are going to be MM reducers, but for an Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit Fire/Ash Theologian it represents another way to get your CL up for casting those Fireballs! Magical Lineage and/or Wayang Spellhunter Absolute musts for a Blaster/Theologian build, but could also be useful for an Ecclesitheurge if they fancied dabbling with blasting and maybe combine it with Elemental Spell or even a Vanilla Cleric that wanted to boost a Debuff spell like Hallucinogenic Smoke or Greater Forbid Action with Persistent Spell. Scribe Scroll / Craft Wand Great feats for any Cleric due to the size and versatility of the basic spell list and the fact that they automatically know all the spells on it. Would be of course particularly good for an Ecclesitheurge. Combat Reflexes I am not a huge fan of Reach builds as their damage output just doesn’t merit the investment IMO, especially as you level up. There are occasional exceptions though, a great example would be the previously discussed use of the Plant subdomain, or any build that made heavy use of Enlarge Person spell. Divine Interference Well known for basically being a must-have feat - forcing rerolls at a penalty is a definite lifesaver, even if you only sacrifice a 1st level spell. Beacon of Faith (Trait) Potentially worth it to cast a domain spell like Holy Word/Blasphemy/Spell Resistance, even if it’s only 1/day. Heedful Readiness (Trait) It’s only 1/day but adding WIS to initiative could be a game changer in a big battle. Fate's Favored (Trait) Always great. Mother's Rage (Trait) Lamashtu specific, but a +1 on Survival checks and a +1 on CL for Summon Monster spells is good straight from Level 1. Accelerated Drinker (Trait) If you have the Alchemy subdomain, everyone in the party should get this trait. Move action potion drinking is great. VARIOUS CHANNEL BOOSTING FEATS/TRAITS Unless you are a Channel specialist or Undead Lord, none of these are really worth it IMO. Clerics are feat starved already! As a general rule with Channelling, the benefits are only there if you are all in or all out. Making your Cleric much SADer is great overall for caster builds. The only exception is Herald Caller which basically receives a free ‘improved’ Selective Channel for use on summoned critters and so doesn’t have to invest as much in order to make Channelling viable in the first place. Picking up ‘Undead Lord does get Command Undead as a bonus feat and a choice of Channel Smite, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Quick Channel, Skeleton Summoner or Undead Master at 10th level. Extra Channel - could be worth it as it gives a CHA 10 Cleric, 5 channels instead of 3 and so saves ability score points. But do you have the spare feats?? Improved Channel - for an Undead Lord could be excellent. Factoring in the other stuff your neg channel DC is now 19 + CHA + ½ Cleric level. Try and save that *(&^%$! Throw on some D6 boosters and your damage starts to become half decent too. Quick Channel - probably only worth it for a real Channel specialist as although useful will really chew through your daily uses. Channel Viciousness - Potentially very good as an extra 2D6 on melee weapon damage for CHA mod in minutes has real use even for a lower CHA build. Fateful Channel - anything offering re-rolls is always worth considering, especially since it only burns the standard 1 channel to use. Protective Channel - Prot Evil is an excellent spell and so being able to hand it out on top of the healing effect is solid. The only downside is the need to have a 7D6 channel. Sacred Conduit (Trait) - like before, go for it if you are an all in Channeler and want that +1DC, otherwise forget it.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Thanks again Arkham. How's that look? Yes good... much appreciated Have a couple of additions/tweaks for the archetypes and the items section to be added: Foundation of Faith: To be honest, the trade-offs vs losing channelling doesn’t IMO quite match up but then if you are going to dump CHA anyway you may as well as take this. And because you are now CON focussed, it does provide for some extra HP and Fort save gains. You do also gain the ability to add your CON bonus to CMD, concentration checks and vs Intimidate which definitely has some utility. But the gain to focus on is ‘Rooted Vitality (Su)’, and in particular the following phrasing: At 5th level, a foundation of faith draws healing from the earth. As a swift action while standing on natural or worked stone, the foundation of faith can gain fast healing 1. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the foundation of faith’s Constitution modifier or until the foundation of faith loses contact with the natural or worked stone. At 7th level, this ability increases to fast healing 2, and it increases by an additional point every 2 levels thereafter (to a maximum of fast healing 8 at 19th level). Instead of gaining this fast healing herself, a foundation of faith can expend a use of this ability to instead touch up to six other creatures as a standard action to grant each creature half of the fast healing that the foundation of faith would receive (minimum fast healing 1). A recipient must be standing on natural or worked stone to receive this fast healing, and the fast healing lasts for a number of rounds equal to the foundation of faith’s Constitution modifier or until the recipient leaves contact with natural or worked stone. If one recipient loses this fast healing early, it does not affect the duration for the other targets. This ability is usable once per day at 5th level, plus an additional time per day for every 5 levels beyond 5th. Bearing in mind in D&D/D20 type games, you are frequently surrounded by natural or worked stone, so this ability is pretty easy to access, and even if you aren’t there is nothing stopping you carrying round a suitable piece of stone for emergency back-up (a bit cheesy I know!) The essence is that either after a big battle basically everyone in the party is healed back up to max - at 5th to 7th level, auto heal back 10 hp/minute, or if you’re a Combat build Cleric, you can switch it on during a big battle to keep yourself topped up, or you can pre-buff the party with it (standard actions gets 6 PCs activated) and then everyone wades in! As well it stacks with Herald Caller, Divine Paragon, Devout Pilgrim or Theologian which is noteworthy. Anglefire Apostle I see this as a Healbot with a twist, yes with 5+CHA channels, you are obviously channel biased and with reduced spellcasting and no medium armour, this further reduces your options. However, it does have a niche space - Selective Channel and possibly Quick Channel are still probably on your list of feats. You do still get both domains which is good. A moderate investment in WIS (but certainly not a maximum) is going to be useful to claw back your lost spell slots and keep a reasonable DC for the ‘Cleansing Flames (Su)’ ability. The bolt-ons to Channelling are situationally very useful within this build, eg) being able to auto-dazzle for 1 round via ‘Channel Angelfire (Su)’ is OK and when you can AOE remove paralysis or Breath of Life at 11th (empowered if you have the Good domain) then you will be vital for your party. Variant Channelling probably has some mileage here too. A niche archetype but could do very well as a Healer build with a secondary Buff or even Critter role with some Sacred Summons. The best of the Channel focussed archetypes. Stacks with Divine Paragon or Theologian which does open up some very interesting options. Blossoming Light If you are determined to become ‘Uber-Healbot’ then this is the archetype for you! You get 5+CHA for channelling straight off the bat and this goes up by 1 every 2 levels, so you’ll have channels to burn. Keep WIS to a minimum and go full on CHA focus with Selective Channel and Quick Channel obvious choices. Noble Scion of War to get CHA to Initiative might be an idea too. It doesn’t get any armour and no domain spells either, so Healing and Buffing are your only 2 real choices. Pick 2 domains that buff your healing further and give you a bit of protection too with their powers! The ability at 3rd level to auto-damage certain creature types is a bonus but certainly not guaranteed, and the other add-ons are pretty mediocre. Since you are going all in, Variant Channelling would be worth look at. IMPACT OF ITEMS/FEATS/TRAITS ITEMS This section isn’t going to deal with the usual stuff that any caster will benefit from. eg) Spell Focus, Cloak of Resistance.. etc, but rather more specifically things that the Cleric as a prepared caster will benefit from. Prices quoted are for purchase cost not for crafting. Pyxes of Redirected Focus - 1,000 gp Once per day, a cleric (or other class with cleric domains) may activate the pyxes and may select any one of her prepared domain spells and replace it with the domain spell of that level from her other domain. Already mentioned - this item has utility with virtually any Cleric build. By RAW seems to be extremely good for an Ecclesitheurge. Can have multiple of these. Icon of Aspects - 5,500 gp When a cleric with an icon of aspects prepares spells, she may replace the granted powers of one of her domains with those of a different domain she doesn’t have but that is associated with her deity. This lasts until the next time she prepares spells. The cleric must meet the level requirements for both abilities. This again has utility for virtually any build, but would be especially useful for a single domain archetype that maybe had great spells but not to good abilities. Since you can have more than one, it allows a two domain Cleric to ensure that they have both the best domains for spells and those for domain powers. Headband of Fortune's Favor - 7700 gp Already discussed - this item has such great synergy with the Luck domain and Varisian/Devout Pilgrim that I would consider it over the standard Headband of Inspired Wisdom for that specific build. Pearl of Power - varies gp Essential for any prepared caster but specifically very useful for any Cleric build stuck with 1 domain slot per level. IMO only financially worth it up to 3rd level spells. Cauldron of Overwhelming Allies - 4,500 gp The artistic scrawls on the dark surface of this small bronze cauldron depict an array of exotic animals, legendary beasts, leering fiends, and hosts of elementals. Once per day, if used as the focus or divine focus for a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell, the cauldron automatically conjures 1d3 additional creatures of the same kind from the next lower level list. Almost hilariously powerful and completely understandable why it is PFS banned!! Incense of Meditation - 4,900 gp When a divine spellcaster lights a block of incense of meditation and then spends 8 hours praying and meditating nearby, the incense enables him to prepare all his spells as though affected by the Maximize Spell feat. However, all the spells prepared in this way are at their normal level, not at three levels higher (as with the regular metamagic feat). Powerful but pricey for something with 1 use. Nevertheless with CWI and at higher levels this could take a Theologian Blaster build to a whole new level! Candle of Invocation - 8,400 gp Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on Attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame. A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him As if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts And the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties. In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. This is a very decent Cleric item with several benefits, however, the most interesting option by RAW appears to be that you can as a Cleric have 4 days where you have the number of spells of a Cleric 2 levels higher than you are. It takes 1 hour meditation to gain your spells, and the candle lasts 4 hours with the option to blow it out at any time - 4 hours = 4 prep sessions. The option where you actually gain a higher level of spells and not just quantity, isn’t worth it IMO. As an example, a 7th level Cleric who uses this would gain an additional 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spell for that day, due to being counted as 9th level. Pretty neat. Summoner’s Idol - 50 gp These depictions of forgotten spirits can be used to augment summoning magic. If used as an additional material component for any summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell, the summoned creature has an additional +2 hit points per Hit Die. Insanely good value for money. At 50 gp you could easily afford to use these once or twice a day and reap the benefits. Prayer Bead of Karma - 36,200 gp Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes. A pretty expensive item to buy outright - a perfect example of why CWI is so good! If you can get one this has obvious uses, especially for a build looking to optimise Blasphemy/Holy Word or even things like Spell Resistance. Wizards Hook - 4310 gp A wizard hook is a +1 hook hand and a useful item for any arcane spellcaster. Although a wizard hook does not allow for fine manipulation, it is infused with magic that bolsters somatic components—you can use a hand stump outfitted with a wizard hook to fulfill any somatic components for casting arcane spells. A wizard hook also grants proficiency in its use as a weapon. You can make touch attacks with spells using a wizard hook, either by making a normal attack with the hook (in which case it deals normal hook hand damage plus the spell effect), or by making a touch attack with the hook (in which case you gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll and the save DC of the spell increases by +1, but you do not do hook hand damage). A very good item for a bad touch/debuff Cleric build. Essential for a user of ‘Vision of Madness (Sp)’. Metamagic Rod, Reach - varies in gp An obvious choice for landing any touch spells at a distance. Poratble Altar - 250 gp Previously mentioned - ties in perfectly with the Craft Magic Arms and Armour ----> Create Reliquary Arms and Shields ----> Desecrate spell combo with the Undead Lord archetype.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Yes looks good thanks.... I have made a couple of tweaks on previous stuff to be swapped. Next up and on its way..... ITEMS/TRAITS/FEATS.... :)) INTRODUCTION Before I go into the Cleric ratings, I feel a prefix is required in order to understand the mechanics of what I will be discussing.
All sounds pretty good doesn’t it? Sadly this deceptive simplicity and ‘good all-rounder’ image have led many, many players (interestingly both new and experienced alike) to be tempted down the path of ‘jack of all trades’ into the tragic realm of ‘healbot’ and/or post 5th level mediocrity. The often seen “I hate playing Clerics” or “No-one wants to play a Cleric at my table” is often down to the above misunderstanding. Pathfinder 1st Ed does NOT reward generalisation, it rewards specialisation, and there are very few (if any) classes where this is more apparent than the Cleric. And specialisation should not be confused with “min-maxing” although there is certainly some overlap. Before any kind of “Ratings” discussion can occur, it has to be made aware of the impact on the build of a Cleric that overall combination of deity, domain choice, archetype, ability score spread, race, items/feats/traits and FCB can make on the final result. When looking at other 9th level casters, this combination does not occur to near the same degree. For example, how many Elf Wizards have you seen?..... I’ve lost count. For some of the 9th level casters, there really is no mechanical reason to stray away from a given race, thus simplifying the process and the build. This is not the case for the Cleric as different races can provide different advantages for any given build. The fact that a WIS bonus isn’t given in certain cases isn’t necessarily a problem – you wouldn’t find many Witch, Wizard, Arcanist or Sorceror builds where an INT or CHA bonus isn’t present. A partial reason why this versatility exists is down to the FCB – for every single type of Cleric build that you can think of simply taking the +1hp/level that is available irrespective of race, is always a solid option. Several other of the 9th level casters are very dependent on their FCB to boost class options, whereas every single Cleric build can very easily become effectively a D10 HD full caster with no loss of overall class function. This has the knock on effect of making CON investment slightly less important - alternatively a minor investment of 12 CON makes the Cleric a D12 HD full caster. Quite a few times I have seen a Cleric with virtually the same HP as the party Fighter. I would finally also like to address a topic that comes up all the time when discussing the merits of various casters, that of ‘spell list access’. The basic idea behind this is that the broader the list of spells you have, the better your casting options; although this sounds like a reasonable supposition, it is in fact not quite as simple. To illustrate this, I will use the Wizard and the Shaman as my main examples: Unquestionably and rightly so, the Wizard has the best spell list in the game. There are certainly great spells on other lists (mainly the Cleric and Witch) that the Wizard doesn’t have access to, but in terms of the overall basic list, the Wizard’s is 100% the best. You may here people cry, “Ah yes, but in reality the Wizard has to buy their spells in order to scribe them into their spellbook and that means gp spent.” Although this is the case, I have never seen a Wizard that didn’t have pretty much the spells they needed on a day to day basis. However, having access to great spells is one thing, but being able to use them effectively is actually much more important. As the great Bruce Lee said, “I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who had practiced one kick 10,000 times.’ What I am trying to illustrate is that in reality, the Wizard is very dependant on the party to keep him alive, hopefully assist with spellcasting duties and preferably just keep the bad guys well away, so they can get to do their thing. A 8th level Wizard will on average have 28 hp + CON (+ if they chose to use FCB) and low-moderate AC - yes they can have additional defensive buffs but these take up precious action economy, are of little use in surprise situations and offer no guarantees. If a game is being GMed properly (ie the GM doesn’t just let the Wizard stand at the back and cast unhindered), the Wizard can have it rough indeed. A Wizard who finds himself on the end of a full attacking melee/ranged martial or sneak attack Rogue/Ninja will v.quickly find themselves on the end of a terminal beat down. And interestingly combined with their lower base saves can easily become undone with a failed spell save if they haven’t invested ability score points wisely.
Now we bring in the Shaman as an interesting comparative. On the surface it has the worst spell list of the 9th level casters, only 1 good save and is hugely dependant on its FCB to boost spells, with only a few races gaining access to the Cleric list and it only kicking in at 3rd level, due to the spell having to be a level lower.
HOWEVER in a smaller party, in comparison to the Wizard, the Shaman due to its greater overall versatility and survivability could easily be a better option. Here, having the best core spell list isn’t necessarily an advantage if you are the Wizard and more reliant on other PCs to keep you alive. Hopefully, this shows how just focussing on spell lists can be misleading when having discussions on the 9th level casters. So I will now discuss how the different components make an impact on the final build before finally giving a ratings breakdown. Erastil (LG) - Animal, Community, Good, Law, Plant The Evangelist boon, 'Faithful Archer (Ex)' - Adding WIS to hit and damage with a longbow is great even if you don’t get it till 14th level. It should be noted that WIS to hit by an Erastil Cleric can be gained much earlier via the Erastil’s Blessing feat - this then could lead onto further options depending on build priorities.
Here's a biggy on deities.... could it be uploaded along with my recent tweak please! IMPACT OF DEITY
Yamatsumi (N) - Earth, Fire, Protection, Strength, Water Be honest…have you ever seen in real life a Cleric of Yamatsumi played? How many of you had even heard of this deity before reading this?! No boons and no bonus spells….. BUT…….check out the domains! This Cleric has access to Ash, Caves and Ice subdomains. An Ecclesitheurge could wreak absolute havoc with this…. throw on the Samsaran template do I hear you cry? Congrats you are now the Uber God of spell access. This section will deal more specifically with bonus prepared spells that are offered, or interesting boons provided that will of course be of interest to a Divine Paragon Cleric with its free Deific Obedience and accelerated access to the boons. IMO the normal rate of boon access just isn’t worth it for most Clerics. So if I mention the boons, I’m talking specifically about Divine Paragon. Depending on builds, it may well be worth investing in Diverse Obedience or the free entry into PrC Evangelist, but I am not going into detail for that on each deity. Domains are included so as to give a fuller picture of each deity and see how it fits in with possible builds. Bonus prepared spells are crucial as in several of the cases that spell may well be a domain spell already, but for vanilla clerics this obviously limits their use. In other cases, the spell is a Wizard or Druid/Ranger/Inquisitor spell that would normally be unavailable. Hopefully by now (and certainly after reading this section) you are seeing how your options as a Cleric are something that is surprisingly complex, more so than any other 9th level caster, when you are putting together how archetype, domains, deity, ability point distribution and FCB could interact. Erastil (LG) - Animal, Community, Good, Law, Plant Goodberry can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
The Evangelist boon, Faithful Archer (Ex) - Adding WIS to hit and damage with a longbow is great even if you don’t get it till 14th level. Iomedae (LG)- Glory, Good, Law, Sun, War Holy Sword can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Good Hope - a great party buff spell normally only available to Bard & Skald. Excellent duration that makes it in some respects superior to Haste. Stacks with BOF too. Solid for Buffer and Critter builds. Shelyn (NG) - Air, Charm, Good, Luck, Protection Charm Person can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Good Sentinel boons - Haste 1/day, +2 untyped on damage rolls vs evil, Res 15 (Elec) Irori (LN)- Healing, Knowledge, Law, Rune, Strength Astral Projection can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Good selection of spells, although Haste at 4th is probably edged out by BOF at 4th. However, Sentinel boons are very good too - including getting Haste 3/day at 5th. Finally, they get the most excellent ‘Wisdom in the Flesh’ trait - great for ‘Rogue’ Clerics. Nethys (N) - Destruction, Knowledge, Magic, Protection, Rune Arcane Mark can be prepared as a 0-level spell
Has both good Evangelist and Exalted boons. If you are someone going down the Blasphemy/Holy Word specialisation path then ‘Pure Magic Aura (Su)’ is potentially bordering on the insane! Pharasma (N) - Death, Healing, Knowledge, Repose, Water False Life can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Gorum (CN) - Chaos, Destruction, Glory, Strength, War Rage can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Good spells to boost several possible roles - Combat/Buff/Debuff. Also ‘Mass Strength Surge (Su)’ Exalted boon could be outstanding if your party is martial heavy - giving all martials +1/2 your level on attack rolls and CM checks from 11th level at opportune moments could easily swing a combat. Asmodeus (LE) - Evil, Fire, Law, Magic, Trickery Geas, Lesser can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Moderately useful spells but the REAL bonus is the Spellcasting Contract line of spells that are especially for Asmodean Clerics. Definitely one of the best buff spells in the entire game - great for the recipient and great for you too! Since you get the Ash subdomain, Asmodeus offers the potential to be very good in several of the caster roles - a Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit Ash Theologian who has a side-line in Buffing? Just sign on that dotted line please….. Zun Kuthon (LE) - Darkness, Death, Destruction, Evil, Law Symbol of Pain can be prepared as a 4th-level spell (1 level earlier than normal) Has a very good Deific Obedience - ie) Gain a +2 sacred bonus on saving throws against spells that deal hit point damage. A wide variety of uses. Also a decent set of Exalted boons. Urgathoa (NE) - Death, Evil, Magic, Strength, War Ghoul Touch can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell A great deity for an Undead Lord and also for a Divine Paragon due to the Exalted boon, ‘Bolstering Channel (Su)’ - boosting all your undead minions speed by 10 ft is definitely useful. Rovagug (CE) - Chaos, Destruction, Evil, War, Weather Baleful Polymorph can be prepared as a 4th-level spell What is worthwhile for a specialist build is ‘Destructive Spell (Su)’ Evangelist boon - +4 DC on any HP damaging spell and treating all rolled 1s as 2s is very good. Kazutal (NG) - Community, Good, Liberation, Protection, Strength Beast Shape I can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Good spells to boost a Combat build. Some very good Evangelist and Exalted boons, including ‘Anticipate peril 3/day’, ‘Mirror Image 2/day’ and ‘Defending Shield (Su)’ - solid deity for Buffer, Combat, Critter and Utility builds. Milani (CG) - Chaos, Good, Healing, Liberation, Protection Coordinated Effort can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Great for Buffer builds. Grandmother Spider (N) - Charm, Community, Darkness, Luck, Trickery Silent Image can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Good spells to boost a Utility or Control build. Excellent set of Exalted boons but also Spiked Pit 1/day from Sentinel - solid deity for Debuff, Control and Utility builds. Naderi (N) - Charm, Nobility, Repose, Water Confusion, Lesser can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Sentinel boon, ‘Mantle of Tragic Grace (Sp)’ gets you a much more versatile form of a ‘Globe of Invulnerability’ Nivi Rhombodazzle(N) - Community, Earth, Luck, Trickery Expeditious Excavation can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Some excellent Evangelist and Exalted boons, including True strike 3/day or Haste 1/day, ‘Gambler’s Egress (Sp)’, ‘Gemstone Guardian (Sp)’ and ‘Seven-Pipped Gem (Su)’. Groetus (CN) - Chaos, Darkness, Destruction, Madness, Void Fear can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Exalted boons are reasonably good. Arazni (NE) - Evil, Nobility, Protection Anticipate Peril can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Pretty good Exalted and Sentinel boons, including ‘Subliminal Intransigence (Su)’ - congrats you are now immune to Charm and Compulsion effects and get a +4 bonus vs Fear effects. Zyphus (NE) - Death, Destruction, Evil, Plant, War Daze can be prepared as a 0-level spell
A good selection of lower level bonus spells for a Utility build. Also some really good Evangelist and Exalted boons, including Break 3/day, Find Traps 2/day, or Spiked Pit 1/day and ‘Resiliency (Ex)’ or ‘Ever Vigilant (Su)’ - amazing you are now effectively protected by permanent Death Ward AND you get a +2 saving throws against effects that occur before your first turn in combat. Dahak (CE) - Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Scalykind, Trickery Dahak's Release can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
A solid set of Exalted boons. Moloch (LE) - Evil, Fire, Law, War Pyrotechnics can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
A decent obedience bonus (+4 save vs fire) and a decent set of Exalted boons, including ‘Accept the Flame (Su)’ - effectively immunity to fire at 14th level. Pretty good. Shizuru (LG) - Glory, Good, Law, Repose, Sun Tail Strike can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
A very good selection of bonus spells, with especial note, the ability to spontaneously cast Color Spray. A nice obedience too (+2 sacred bonus to confirm crit and can use sword as divine focus). Some reasonably good boons but would definitely require Diverse Obedience or Evangelist PrC to make best use. Tsukiyo (LG) - Darkness, Good, Law, Madness, Repose Faerie Fire can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
No need to go into detail here - all the Evangelist boons are solid but ‘Collective Vision (Su)’ transforms you into a Debuff God at 11th level. Some Utility boosting spells. Hei Feng (CN) - Air, Chaos, Destruction, Water, Weather Gust of Wind can be prepared as a 2nd-level spell
Good spells to boost to a Blaster or Control build. Baphomet (CE) - Animal, Chaos, Evil, Strength Maze can be prepared as a 8th-level spell
Good spells to boost a Combat, Debuff or Utility build. Deskari (CE) - Chaos, Destruction, Evil, War Create Pit can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Good spells to boost a Control or Utility build. Kostchtchie (CE) - Chaos, Evil, Strength, War Hex Ward can be prepared as a 1st-level spell
Good boosts to Debuff and Control builds. Interesting to note that Ice subdomain is available despite the absence of Water domain. Angradd (LG) - Fire, Good, Law, War Solid set of Exalted and Sentinel boons including Fireball 1/day, ‘Blazing Righteousness (Su)’ and ‘Army of One (Sp)’. Great Old Ones / Outer Gods Deserving of its own special section because of the famous/infamous ‘Dreamed Secrets’…… almost universally recognised as one of the most powerful feats in the game. Yes it does require a DC 20 Will save, but for a caster focussed Cleric this shouldn’t be a problem to achieve by 7th level, especially with save boosting items….etc. As well, there a couple of deities in this pantheon that offer boons: Xhamen-Dor (NE) - Death, Evil, Plant, Trickery Wall of Thorns can be prepared as a 6th-level spell
Some nice Sentinel boons, including Entangle 3/day and ‘Transformation Mastery (Su)’. Hastur (CE) - Chaos, Evil, Rune, Void Confusion can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
Generally good boons in all 3 sets, including ‘Confusion Command (Su)’, Disguise Self 3/day and with the Sentinel boons, by 14th level you be immune from confusion, insanity, death and petrification effects. Chaldira (NG) - Good, Luck, Trickery, War Mage Hand can be prepared as a 0-level spell
Some very good Exalted and Sentinel boons, including, Lucky Miss (Sp), Prayer 1/day, Fortunate Spells (Su) or Impetuous Ardor (Su) - you now will almost never provoke an AOO when you move.
Plant The Growth subdomain is where it’s at here - has some useful bonus domain spells and the very good ‘Enlarge (Su)’. Yes it’s only 1 round, but it’s a swift action which is key. A reach cleric could pull some very interesting antics with this as deactivating an ability is a free action: eg) Cleric swift action (size now large/4 squares), standard action attack(s) using max reach (up to 20ft depending on weapon), deactivate (free), move action away from enemy. Alternatively, it could be combined with Combat Reflexes to max out A00s. Also a Varisian Pilgrim could use this on martials to really create some mayhem. Good potential for Combat or Buffing builds.
Here is my stuff on domains...... IMPACT OF DOMAINS This particular section is not an overall review of domains per se as there are several of these already. Instead it will highlight particularly noteworthy ones that can make a real impact on any of the assigned caster roles. Animal Obviously for AC/Critter builds - both Feather and Fur offer an upgrade to the base domain in both abilities and spells. Feather is probably more utility caster focussed. Artifice Alchemy offers some interesting abilities and spells.
Chaos Demon subdomain with ‘Fury of the Abyss (Su)’ as a swift action has some good mileage for a melee focussed build and would be even better if utilised by a Varisian Pilgrim. Charm Love subdomain with ‘Adoration (Su)’, ‘Charming Smile (Sp)’ and some solid domain spells is very good and underused I think. A Varisian Pilgrim could make particularly good use of ‘Adoration (Su)’. Great buffer/debuffer potential (depending on which way you look at it!) Darkness Shadow subdomain gives out basically free Persistent Metamagic on Necromancy and Illusion spells with ‘Whispering Shadows (Su)’ - only 4 deities have access to it but potentially devastating. Take for Debuff/Control/Blaster Clerics. Earth Caves subdomain offers a great selection of domain pit spells and some very useful domain powers with ‘Tunnel Runner (Su)’. Well worth it for any caster or specifically Utility or Control, or just a ‘Rogue’ style Cleric. Fire Ash subdomain is excellent. Great selection of domains spells and the always amazing ‘Wall of Ashes (Su)’. Take for Debuff/Control/Blaster Clerics. The Cleric spell list already has several ‘Wall’ spells on it and this adds 2 more (Fire and Ash). A Top 5 domain IMO and a basic essential for any Theologian, but also v.good but for a basic Vanilla. Glory Has the very good Glory and possibly better Heroism subdomain. Heroism works particularly well in both Critter and Buffer roles. Touch of Glory also has its uses for any Cleric that wants to tie its Initiative to CHA via Scion of War or just ace CHA checks in general. Good
Healing ‘Healer's Blessing (Su)’ - if you want to be a great Healer build this is for you. Free Empowered healing spells at 6th level. Niche but hey, if you really want to specialise! The Blossoming Light archetype is an obvious fit for this. Liberation Amazing. Use of it or the Freedom subdomain make you and allies almost “undebuffable”! Great for a Varisian Pilgrim. Luck Now the goodness of ‘Bit of Luck (Sp)’ is well known, but I believe its true magic only kicks in with Varisian Pilgrim (are you beginning to see a pattern here?!) for use on party martials, and it has so much potential I would consider sacrificing a Wisdom headband slot and go for a ‘Headband of Fortune's Favor’. Having a martial rolling 2 x D20s for all their rolls for 2 rounds instead of 1, is just encounter ending. Yes I know by RAW a slot can have multiple abilities but some GMs don’t allow that. Makes for a Buffer God. Madness The domain has some interesting bonus spells. With ‘Vision of Madness (Sp)’ and ‘Aura of Madness (Su)’ it offers excellent potential for debuffing, but interestingly ‘Vision of Madness (Sp)’ has also good buffing potential in certain circumstances. A Varisian Pilgrim could hand it out to a martial at range to significantly increase their hitting % - yes skill checks would suffer, but who cares?..... and yes saves would suffer but if you just really need to get your martials hitting and dishing out the damage then it could be worth the risk for 3 rounds. It also has good out of combat buffing potential for skill checks. Also I have played a caster cleric that used to use this on themselves in certain fights as their pre-buff to boost my saves, I didn’t care that my skill checks and attack rolls suffered since those wouldn’t be factors. By 8th level I largely stopped worrying about enemy spellcasters!
Plant The Growth subdomain is where it’s at here - has some useful bonus domain spells and the very good ‘Enlarge (Su)’. Yes it’s only 1 round, but it’s a swift action which is key. A reach cleric could pull some very interesting antics with this as deactivating an ability is a free action, but also a Varisian Pilgrim could use this on martials to really create some mayhem. Good potential for Combat or Buffing builds. Sun Another rarely seen but very useful domain - both Sun and Light subdomain offer some great domain spells and abilities. ‘Sun's Blessing (Su)’ is an absolute must for an undead heavy campaign and ‘Blinding Flash (Su)’ is a really good debuff that is useable straight from Lv 1. Travel Not a lot needs saying about this domain, it quite literally is famously great! Curiously amongst the cleric domains, the subdomains aren’t really worth taking, although ‘Door Sight (Su)’ from the Exploration subdomain does have some benefit once you get to about 4th level as you’ll start to be able to see through walls. I’m not exactly sure on the RAW but if I was GM, I would rule that for a Varisian Pilgrim, my allies all received the +10 ft speed bonus (just to put the icing on the cake!). Overall, great for a Utility or possibly Buffer build. Trickery Another well-known domain - both Trickery and Deception sub-domain offer both good spells and abilities. And getting Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth as class skills provides a nice boost to a Utility build and a ‘Rogue’ Cleric. For a Varisian Pilgrim, ‘Copycat (Sp)’ has awesome potential. Void Both Void and Dark Tapestry have some good domain spells and powers. If you stick with Void you get better spells, if you go with Dark Tapestry you improve the powers. Both ‘Part the Veil (Su)’ and ‘It Came from Beyond (Su)’ are decent - simultaneously makes you a better Debuffer and Critter build. Water Here the Flotsam subdomain and ‘Sift (Su)’ does give some interesting applications with randomly pulling out scrolls of 1st- 2nd level spells. Due to the broken condition (not broken at 12th level) it uses 2x charges/uses as normal so initially you would have to put twice as many spells on the scroll to compensate. And a UMD check would be needed for any arcane spells. Nevertheless, at 6th level, 300 gp gets you a scroll with 6 effective uses of Mage Armour (1 hr duration) or 3 effective uses (2 hour duration) on it. For a niche Utility build it could well be very useful.
My latest chunk.... Before discussing the impact of race on the final build, I feel I should be briefly go through notable archetype options since some of these are naturally attuned to some races more than others. Impact of Archetype Vanilla Cleric: This is the commonly seen trap choice made by players which can lead to the sub-par Cleric. However, this does NOT mean that Vanilla Cleric cannot be a very effective choice given the correct knowledge. Your access to metal armour and both domains should be the basis of your build. As a quick example - a Dwarf of Iomedae with Steel Soul, Heavy Armour Proficiency, Sacred Summoning and the Sun and Heroism domains has even before considering the Cleric spell list a good scaling debuff, some good domain spells, a high level of tankiness, a group buff ability and the ability to get extra bodies on the field quickly. As with all things Cleric - the Devil is in the details. Devout Pilgrim: A rarely seen but v.effective choice - with Caravan Bond and Blessing of the Harrow this Cleric can make an outstanding buffer option. A Cleric of Arshea with the Love and Liberation domains or Sun-Wukong with Travel and Liberation will be a phenomena in any party. Herald Caller: Enough has been written about this archetype to know its potential not only as ‘divine summoner’, but also to have a secondary skills monkey, Animal Comp utiliser or utility role. Overall, very good in the ‘Critters’ role - probably one of the best in the game. Ecclesitheurge: IMO a bit of a botched archetype, but nevertheless if you want extra “castiness” this is probably your best bet. Scribe Scroll is a must have feat and then just go to town going through your domains and scribing any useful non-cleric spells for your collection. Just stay the hell away from combat! Regarding ‘Bonded Holy Symbol’, pay attention to the wording: “At 3rd level, an ecclesitheurge forms a powerful bond with a holy symbol of his deity, which functions identically to a wizard’s bonded object except it can be used to cast cleric and domain spells (instead of wizard spells) and the ecclesitheurge can grant his bonded holy symbol only magic abilities appropriate for a holy symbol or a neck slot item” By RAW the symbol can take the form of any slotted item, there is nothing saying that it can’t be a ring for example. All it has to be is a “holy symbol”. The restriction is regarding the magic abilities that are applied to the item, not the location of it. Theologian: IMO is a bit overhyped in the ‘Blaster’ role, but it can be pretty good if built correctly. It does rely on choosing the right race alongside with in all probability the Ash domain and Fireball. Aasimar/Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit are good choices due to the possible boosts. Combine the free Intensified Spell with the traits Wayang Spellhunter, Magical Lineage and the feats Elemental Spell/Empower Spell/Consecrate Spell/Dazing Spell and you have a pretty decent Fireball Cleric, combine with Idealist Cleric and Plane of Fire and you can have some oomph as party ‘Blaster’. Divine Paragon: The classic example of why paying attention to choice of deity is so crucial. Some of the options that are generated from the accelerated boons are really good. For most deities though the trade-off vs losing your 2nd domain abilities probably isn’t worth it - but there are some real gems out there. And the fact that it is free access to the Evangelist PrC certainly doesn’t hurt and expands your options significantly, albeit with certain trade-offs. Foundation of Faith: To be honest, the trade-offs vs channelling doesn’t IMO match up but then if you are going to dump CHA anyway you may as well as take this. And because you are now CON focussed, it does provide for some extra HP and Fort save gains. Idealist: A real weird one. Depending on the plane, you can get some useful bonus spontaneous spells (eg Stoneskin, Shadow Conjuration) and you can replace the pos/neg channelling with something potentially more impactful. What is noticeable and unusual is that it stacks with several other good archetypes - ie) Devout Pilgrim, Herald Caller, Theologian, Divine Paragon. Undead Lord: Functions v.well in the Critters or Debuff role - go for the Undead domain. Grab yourself a portable altar and get Craft Magic Weapons/Armour and Create Reliquary Arms and Shields. You are now not only an undead summoning god but your neg.channelling is seriously hard to resist, so good that it actually becomes worth investing some resources and ability score points into CHA. Dhampir as a race has some interesting mileage.
I've got the Cleric rolling - before I get into the ratings I did feel that I have to give some underlying context to the class chassis first..... and anyway you can never have too much info!! Before I go into the Cleric ratings, I feel a prefix is required in order to understand the mechanics of what I will be discussing. Amongst the 9th level casters, the Cleric is very unusual. On paper it seems a remarkably simple option since the core decisions are made at first level – do you channel positive or negative and what are your domains? You get to use metal armour and shields, some OK weapons, have good Fort and Will saves and OK HP. All sounds pretty good doesn’t it? Sadly this deceptive simplicity and ‘good all-rounder’ image have led many, many players (interestingly both new and experienced alike) to be tempted down the path of ‘jack of all trades’ into the tragic realm of ‘healbot’ and/or post 5th level mediocrity. The often seen “I hate playing Clerics” or “No-one wants to play a Cleric at my table” is often down to the above misunderstanding. Pathfinder 1st Ed does NOT reward generalisation, it rewards specialisation, and there are very few (if any) classes where this is more apparent than the Cleric. And specialisation should not be confused with “min-maxing” although there is certainly some overlap. Before any kind of “Ratings” discussion can occur, it has to be made aware of the impact on the build of a Cleric that overall combination of deity, domain choice, archetype, ability score spread, race and FCB can make on the final result. When looking at other 9th level casters, this combination does not occur to near the same degree. For example, how many Elf Wizards have you seen?..... I’ve lost count. For some of the 9th level casters, there really is no mechanical reason to stray away from a given race, thus simplifying the process and the build. This is not the case for the Cleric as different races can provide different advantages for any given build. The fact that a WIS bonus isn’t given in certain cases isn’t necessarily a problem – you wouldn’t find many Witch, Wizard, Arcanist or Sorceror builds where an INT or CHA bonus isn’t present. A partial reason why this versatility exists is down to the FCB – for every single type of Cleric build that you can think of simply taking the +1hp/level that is available irrespective of race, is always a solid option. Several other of the 9th level casters are very dependent on their FCB to boost class options, whereas every single Cleric build can very easily become effectively a D10 HD full caster with no loss of overall class function. This has the knock on effect of making CON investment slightly less important - alternatively a minor investment of 12 CON makes the Cleric a D12 HD full caster. Quite a few times I have seen a Cleric with virtually the same HP as the party Fighter. Here is an overview of the impact of race:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Here's how I would do it: D6 = "Priest" (can't stand the name but you get the picture) - 9/9
All would utilise the divine list, but for the Warpriest and Knight they could potentially still get access to some of the higher level spells that were thematically/mechanically appropriate. For example - Knight could get access to Righteous Might (5th level spell) but not until say 14th level when its top level spells kicked in. Inquisitor = D8 prestige class with its own bonus spell list that drew from some divine, some arcane and some that were only accessible to itself and the Paladin/AP Paladin/AP = D10 prestige class with its own bonus spell list that was 50% from the divine list and 50% unique.
Andostre wrote:
The Warpriest issue is that it ran into the stumbling block that was that from Day 1 the Cleric should have been made a D6 class albeit renamed into something thematic. In effect Warpriest is what the original concept of "the Cleric" should be. You would have then had a nice neat D6-D8-D10 divine family tree.
Minigiant wrote:
BASIC RULES FOR CLERIC PLAYING (in no particular order) 1) Minimise or dump channelling
But the core issue is, are you talking Core or UC Summoner... you can't flit between the two like its some kind of weird hybrid class. If you're talking Core, then OK but you have to accept that Paizo themselves decided to nerf it and many tables won't even accept it. If you are talking UC, then OK but you have to accept that it has been nerfed!! Which is it?
The 'Non-generic cleric' is a very simple but yet solid and effective approach to customising the Cleric. https://sites.google.com/site/grindorsgoods/nongenericcleric I've always said that due to the varying nature of the deities themselves, you need a modular approach to the Cleric in order for it to make thematic and mechanical sense.
Dragon78 wrote:
No, no and no As much as I appreciate your enthusiasm for PF1 class options D78, trying to make every class have the option to behave like any other class, completes obliviates the point of having classes in the first place!!!
No definitely not. I was never a fan of the Hybrid classes, as they cluttered up the design space - I think a Rogue archetype could have easily been done that did the job of the Slayer. When I think of a Rogue, first and foremost I think of someone with enormous street savvy and common sense and not a lot of academic skills. For me 10+ or even 12+ INT for skill points would have been absolutely fine. That way even with INT 10 the Rogue would have loads to play with.
Claxon wrote: I'm going to take a different route and say Sacred Geometry. It's great for a player, bad for the other players and GM. Agreed.... I literally had to call a halt to a session when one of the players threw a massive tantrum because I wouldn't allow it. The player then proceeded to sulk for the next 2 sessions. Leadership also for similar reasons...
VoodistMonk wrote:
This is why I've always thought Paladin was an underrated melee monster, not so much because they had huge DPR potential (they don't), but because they can built very easily to be v.hard to kill, and thus they fulfil the prophecy of life... "Life is a marathon, not a sprint." The Paladin can keep on rockin whilst other supposedly "superior" melee classes are failing saves left, right and centre...
Kurald Galain wrote:
Good man... its all a bit of harmless fun! :) I should add though any archetypes could be used, so that would mean more classes could therefore get access to ACs... that could well tilt the odds, when using for example a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor?? And yes with the Summoner, I would say that it would have to be the "unchained" version.
Here's something I was thinking about regarding this to settle it: 6th level casters can seemingly make very good all round melee builds but for a variety of different ways and styles, so lets game it out in a gladiator 3 way PVP style... :)) ARCANE Magus vs Bard vs Summoner DIVINE Hunter vs Inquisitor vs Warpriest PSYCHIC Medium vs Occultist vs Spiritualist The winner of each mini-tournament then goes through to the final! Who takes it?
Here is an interesting couple of cleric options that should be entertaining.... Dwarf
You are a dwarf, full caster with an animal companion to help out with melee, can utilise Sacred Summons for further melee/tank/battlefield control, and since you worship Baphomet you now have access to the full range of Monstrous Physique spells - cast and jump into the melee yourself! Dwarf
You are a dwarf, full caster, utilises Sacred Summons for further melee/tank/battlefield control, and swift action Enlarge Person to help out with melee too by launching enormous range reach attacks and picking up AOO. You get yourself an Icon of Aspects and then at 4th level swap out the powers of Plant/growth domain for that of Animal - Feather/Fur. You now have an animal companion as well. Finally, since you worship Shub-Niggurath you now have access to the wonder of Dreamed Secrets to fill in any gaps that you may have.
In my extensive cleric building experience, I have only ever invested slightly in channelling (eg CHA 12) when I have played a Herald Caller, due to their crafty ability to heal all of their summons at an infinite distance with pos.channeling. Once per battle, I would top up the HP tanks of my summons and any allies within the radius.... HOWEVER, I did not invest in either selective channelling or swift channelling. I would also dish out usually 1 channel at the end of the day to top up party HP. IMO channelling is and always has been complete garbage. I regularly play CHA 8 clerics, and CHA 6-7 is not unheard of! Wands and to a lesser degree spont converting a few low level spells at the end of the day are usually good enough.
Swiftbrook wrote:
Sorry to sound harsh but this is clear evidence that you have very little idea how cleric building works You want to be good at everything on a 9th level chassis The Cleric is inherently feat starved - your idea requires some significant feat investment and will lead to MADness. What do you mean by "doing divine casting well"? If all you mean is healing and condition removing then that isn't doing it well! What exactly do you mean?
About Beldan ValeBeldan Vale (aka Belane Jantork)
Strength 10
Total Hit Points: 97
Armor Class: 34 = 10 +7 [dex] +8 [magical (+4) mithral chain shirt] +3 [deflection, Ring of Protection (+3)] +2 [amulet of natural armour +2] +3 [magical (+2) buckler)] +1 [dodge [Dodge)]
Initiative modifier: +13 Fortitude save: +5 = 4 [base] +1 [constitution]
BAB: +10/+5
+1 Keen Icy Burst Rapier +20/+15 attack [1d6+1 + 1d6, crit 15-20/x2 (+1d10), piercing]
Feats: 8 feats
Skills: 143 skill points
Human Traits
Rogue Abilities
Description:
Region of Origin: Keoland
Equipment:
Spoiler:
+4, cold iron. It has a thin, silvery blade, a grip of finest silvery chain, and a guard like a stylized rose blossom, bedecked with red gold and rubies. As the battle ends, the black swans all take flight. A single black feather spirals down from the sky, and lands on the rose design of your rapier. When it does this, the sword quenches, thrums and steams like a new blade plunged into a waterbath.
And when it's done, add the cold iron quality to your weapon. You now have a "dead swan" trophy. Money:
3 x 5000 gp gems XP:
Stig level 14 Spoiler:
Rotund Male Drunken Dwarf Fighter 14
NG Medium humanoid XP: Crap I don't know... Init +1 ; Senses Perception +0 ==DEFENSE==
==OFFENSE==
==STATISTICS==
Base Atk +14,
Feats
Skills
Languages
Class Abilities
==POSSESSIONS:==
+ 7,241gp
3.5 stats: Spoiler:
Beldan Vale (aka Belane Jantork)
Male Human Rogue 9
Strength 10
Total Hit Points: 47
Speed: 30 feet Armor Class: 23 = 10 +4 [dex] +6 [magical (+1) mithril chain mail (-1ACP)] +1 [deflection, Ring of Protection (+1)] +2 [amulet of natural armour +2]
Initiative modifier: +9 Fortitude save: +4 = 3 [base] +1 [constitution]
BAB: +6/+1
+1 Keen Rapier +12/+7 attack [1d6+1, crit 15-20/x2, piercing]
Feats:
Skills:
Human Traits
Description:
Region of Origin: Keoland
Equipment:
Money:
XP: 35,358 after aspct of Grazzt + 2,300 mutant sahuagin and lamias.
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