Andor the Wise's page

Okay - I finally have had the chance to look at Dungeon 112, and the information scattered within tells the following story (page references refer to Dungeon issue 112, July 2004):

A thousand years ago, the ancient Suel Mage of Power Slerotin died shortly after enabling 11 Suel tribes to flee the Twin Cataclysms. Eight of his apprentices formed House Maure (pp.12). They created the eight-pointed star in the entrance corridor of the new dungeon complex which they had presumably had constructed, then left everything in the hands of a group of their apprentices, whom they had initiated as masters of House Maure, and left for other planes of existance (pp. 20). Maure subjects would visit the first level of the dungeon's Chamber of Offerings and what is now known as the Throne/Statue area for worship and entertainment. They lounged around and were pretty debauched and did what they could to curry favour with the early Maure Leaders by leaving offerings to them (pp. 20). Four ancient Suel cults (The Cults of Silver Dreams, Malcanthet, Long Shadows and the Purple Stone) took up residence within the second level of the dungeon complex (pp. 32). When the Cult of the Purple Stone tried to subvert the other cults, along with the Masters of House Maure, the Maures responded by sealing all those within the dungeon complex behind the Unopenable Doors and leaving them to rot (pp. 32).

The third level of the dungeon complex was created by Eli Tomerast 37 years ago from a small network of natural caverns (pp. 52).

The only confusion arises with the statement that the Unopenable Doors were raised 'many decades ago' (pp. 32). However the introduction to the Statuary level states that the doors were sealed 'more than 600 years ago' (pp. 71). I'm happy to go with the latter, as 600 years technically is 'many decades'. =)

Okay. Useful only to the obsessive, I know, but there it is. The 'side dungeon' was most likely created in parallel with the rest of the Maure environs back in the early says of the Suel's...

I believe the "decades" was in error, and it should have been "centuries". On page 44, in room 47, it actually gives a date of approx. when the doors were sealed...5249 SD. That's -267CY, which, in 591(I'm assuming this is the date of the adventure-25 years ago when Mordenkainen was here would put them here in 566) would mean the doors were sealed 858 years ago. I've created a timeline of sorts. Just contact me if you're interested.

2) what is she doing in the picture?

There are TWO ways to read this...

A) what is she DOING in the picture
B) what is SHE doing in the picture

Notice the difference? It completely changes the meaning.

Up till recently, I was reading version A. Which made no sense to me. Ummm... she's staring. Which caused me to try and see WHAT she was staring at...which led to more confusion. Actually, for the longest time, I just read over that comment, not even putting it into the identification bank.

When I read version B, I was like WOW. A whole line of questioning opened up. The painting in the illos was of a red-haired, GREEN eyed female...the only RED-haired female in the actual paintings was Wee Jas...but she has DARK eyes...NOT green. As pointed out earlier, Malcanthet has black hair, AND doesn't even have a painting. So....WHY did the artist render ELLUVIA as one of the paintings?

My first thought was "she IS Wee Jas." But then I remembered RJK answering that the red-haired woman was NOT Wee Jas. UNLESS...( this JUST came to me), Elluvia IS Wee Jas. RJK's answer was ACTUALLY to the question "who was the red-haired lady in the series of scenes" (which RJK described as a vortexual memory cycle. Sooooo...WHAT IF...the "Elluvia" in the cycle WASN'T actually her? It LOOKED like her, but remember that shadow that left her...what if (and I don't know if he has this ability or not) FRAZ, being the deceiver and all...changed his appearance to make it LOOK as if it was Elluvia ...after all...it was HIS painting the memory cycle was in! Talk about Prince of Deception!

OK, this is a lot of conjecture, with little to back it up.

I'll start with posting what RJK has said about her on these and other threads (that I've found...if there has been more, please add):

James Jacobs Creative Director
Sep 16, 2006, 12:27 am
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James Jacobs
Most of those questions are intentionally left up in the air for now. But as for the missing Malcanthet picture... I asked Rob about this myself and he ponited out something intereting... the hall only contains portraits of allies to the Maure Family. Malcanthet is Elluvia's patron, certainly, but neither of them are allies to the family overall.

Rob Kuntz Contributor
Sep 16, 2006, 04:36 pm
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2 people marked this as a favorite. +
infomatic wrote:
Why doesn’t Malcanthet get a portrait? Y hates her, I realize, but half the subjects in the room seem to hate the other half, anyway (Orcus/Demogorgon/Grazz’t, Yeenoghu/Baphomet, etc.)
James answered this in part, but I'll also point out that the family was composed of individuals which had their own distinct powers and allies. When saying that the family had allies, it is only true because, in some cases, one of the individuals had gone the distance in attaining that ally and thus became the family's benefactor in that respect, and probably the one who would act as the family's intermediary with that "ally," the others being known to that Ally as a just faceless "Maure."

Rob Kuntz Contributor
Sep 21, 2006, 11:09 pm
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infomatic wrote:

• The Red-haired woman: There's a similar woman (red hair, green eyes) described in the entry with the "favorite niece" inscription. I'm not sure if there's ever been a description of Elluvia; she'd be a key suspect, I suppose.
Well, he gave it to his niece, so he must be the Uncle (or an Uncle), note that it notes "Favorite," indicating also that there is at least one brother, whoever that is, heh?

Allen Stewart
Oct 4, 2006, 11:36 pm
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Malyas' Shield
Uncle,
We're eagerly awaiting the Family Crypts. Will we find Uncle Maure down in the family crypts? Can he be aided or restored to health/life by altrustic PC's, (and GM's)?

In the familiar tune of 'where's Waldo', Where's Elluvia Maure? Is she still hanging around on some obscure outer plane? Inquiring minds want to know...

Rob Kuntz Contributor
Oct 5, 2006, 04:26 pm
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Allen--

Elluvia. Well, I hope someone puts 2 and 2 together on this woman, as she's part of one of the major plots, and the one which was "unexpected."

Indeed, where are all of the Maures now? We know of Aflebain, and since the ID Core still funstions that suggests taht some are still alive, eh?

infomatic wrote:
Shad-Duan – no mention of this guy anywhere, that I can tell, though given his name and title he may have a connection with the Cult of the Long Shadow. Is he the shadow figure that was attached to the red-haired woman (Wee Jas?)
Try page 93 of DUNGEON #112, Tome of the Black Heart for Sha-Duan.

Th red-haired woman is not Wee-Jas, far from it. The hair color is only a hint at the relationship this woman holds with another not of the family (big hint, note the illos in the issue for this). What is she doing in the picture?

Now, that last response from RJK, to me, is the biggest answer to who Elluvia is.
When I first read this, I misinterpreted 2 things: the hair color, and what is she doing in the picture.

1) hair color...up until Dragon 353, there wasn't any description of Malcanthet. I assumed, based on the artist rendering of the giant succubus,being that she had red hair, that Malcanthet did also. Even after obtaining the Dragon issue and seeing Malcanthet with black hair...I failed to put 2&2 together...or apart in this instance. If her hair color was a clue to the relationship she had with another NON-Maure...(another KEY word...ANOTHER), then WHO is this OTHER red-haired person? The only one I can think of is WEE JAS. No, Elluvia wasn't WEE JAS, but she served her. Perhaps WEE JAS was the cause of the MAGICAL catastrophe that happened?
Now, back to the ANOTHER comment. It could be saying Malcanthet and ANOTHER...OR....it could mean ELLUVIA is not a Maure (by blood).

several people starting looking for a fan driven continuation. I will say this,
if I turn out to put out quality material for this upcoming new game world, I will revisit this at a later date, for right now I doubt my ability to provide as good as material as Rob has done over the years. Also, talking over the telephone is not a good way for me to communicate with anybody. So, if there are others that want to continue working on fan based material, do so. Maybe someday in the future, I will be able to meet with Uncle for a major sit down and hammer ideas event and have enough confidence in my work to tackle such a treasure that Maure Castle has become. Just want to inform all gentle readers. Godspeed.

Vermilleo
May 6, 2013, 04:26 AM | FLAG | LIST
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I realize this thread has been dead for awhile but it's not like necroing a thread is a crime, right? I just wanted to say that while Yog-Sothoth is also my first guess (pretty much along the same reason as the OP, mainly due to the Silver Key), two other possibilities include Yuggoth (if it's not just a planet...? Which it may not be) and Y'golonac, who is also an (albeit less-known) Old One. Also his (?) "portfolio" seems to overlap rather well with the Maure family's personality <<

Andor the Wise
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I'd like to put my two coppers worth into this discussion. Ive been playing greyhawk now for 22 years. I actually stumbled upon this blog recently looking for info for my own campaign that is a compilation of modules and my own stuff. Anyway, on to my coppers: i read both of generic villian and arten's posts and great work by both, but i think everyone has missed a critical point that RJK tried to allude to on several occasions, and that is TIME. When looking at things on the surface we have seen through the eyes of our characters as if they were reading things un real time. But that is incorrect. Here is a timeline I came up with using the Hisrory of Oerth from the OJ's and the dates provided in the maure adventures : 5069SD (-447CY) Slerotin creates tunnel in the Crystalmists.
5069-5102SD (-447to-414CY) Slerotin's apprentices establish Maure Castle; create 8pointed star and leave oerth.
5102-5152SD (-414to-364CY) Chamber of Antiquities (level 6) created by Afelbain; Statuary (level 7) created; Afelbain joyous that he witnessed Uncle summon "the prince. Dread talons, 7times making 7passes. Earth trembled and obeyed."
5152-5802SD (-364 to 286CY) levels 8-18 completed.
5249SD (-267CY)Tanilar Kreel, a cultist of the Cult of the Long Shadows,scrawls message before he dies "they know not what they anger"; the Purple Stone tried to subvert all the cults and the Maures; Maures raise the Unopenable Doors.
5202SD (-14CY) Lower levels sealed.
5516-5766SD (1-250CY) Uncle and Vexus have dealings with Rauxes.
5752SD (236CY) Vexus dealing with Duchy of Urnst.
5802SD (286CY) Vexus's repository updated.

Now, what do we know/hypothesize: Uncle summoned the prince early on. If this was Y, then why the need for Dalt later? And all of the extensive rituals to summon one who is already here?
Who or what wanted to destroy the Maures and why?
From the notes from Elluvia to Bersteck, we find that 1. Bersteck had possessions of the Scythe of Yenoghuu, and 2. Elluvia gained possession of it.
Elluvia had unwanted attention from family members.
Orcus was once a servant to Tharizdun.
Why was Afelbain's death depicted in Orcus's painting?
Area 16 of the Greater Halls shows that there were once paintings there. Were they moved to the paintings room? Why?
How did Uncle get to the Lost City of Elders?
Afelbain alludes to something that Elluvia can give Uncle that will make him relent when she wants to create her pit. I believe this is the Book of Dead Names.

NOW FOR THE PAYOFF: Y and the HE in the note about "pray tha the boy is successful so that HE may come, are two differnt beings. Y may be yog sothoth sothoth as surmised in artens post, but I believe him to be a red herring, a fake. Uncle has been around longer than any of the other Maures. He sets up a false god to hide the fact that he secretly worships tharizdun. He obtains the Tome of the Black Heart and summons Kerzit (the prince that Afelbain witnessed being summoned). In the early goings, Dalt was summoned as an unknowing dupe to aid in the illusion that yog sothoth was their god. Convincing Dalt of the same, they send him to supposedly break yog free, but in fact, it was Tharizdun that Uncle wanted to summon to help them destroy the fiends of Rauxes. At the time of the Maures fall, the Great Kingdom was on the move,taking over all around. Their power was much more than Vex surmised. Was that due to Xaenes arrival from another dimension? Hmm. Yea Vex was trying to get in Elluvias pants, but his was the way of gifts and honeyed words (aftr all, he was a merchant and rogue), but it was Bersteck, Elluvias real uncle, who took on thw role of her rapist. Hence overwhelming anger that pours forth when she has the magic mouth scream "Die, Bersteck!" Oh, and by the way, her method of carrying out her excution attempt is the clue to what Malcanthet had her southern attentions on. Elluvia kept stringing Vex along, dangling the goods but never allowing a taste, putty in her hands, gaining information about Uncle until the time was right to strike, then usung his want for hwr as leverage to have him help her in the coup. The picture of Dalt being led by her is correct, she to was misled and deceived by Fraz. So, what happened to Dalt and why was hus painting defaced you ask? The paintings are gates of a sort. They allow access, both ways, to the demon depicted. But they lose their magical properties if destroyed. So by destroying Dalts painting is to close the gate thereby stranding Dalt. Who then, would know that it was Tharizdun and not Yog that would also not want him coming? Malcanthet. Hers was the claws that rent the painting. Berstecks comment "Curse Vex for hus greed was referring to his involvemnt with Rauxes, as he became a turncoat once seeing the true power of the great kingdom and seeing his gain by switching sides,hence the other reason he helped Elluvia summon Malcanthet.

By the way, this also explains the reason there are paintings of Kerzit and Shan Duan mixed in with the others. Now for the proof/link: I finally received my copy of Dark Druids in the mail today. It deals with thw Dark God (as Tharizdun is also known as). On page 43, the list of the Dark quest Series, part 3 is titled Black Heart (as in Tome of the).

THE END.

Thanks for your time reading my ramblings.
Greyhawk lives on! Always!

I'd like to put my two coppers worth into this discussion. Ive been playing greyhawk now for 22 years. I actually stumbled upon this blog recently looking for info for my own campaign that is a compilation of modules and my own stuff. Anyway, on to my coppers: i read both of generic villian and arten's posts and great work by both, but i think everyone has missed a critical point that RJK tried to allude to on several occasions, and that is TIME. When looking at things on the surface we have seen through the eyes of our characters as if they were reading things un real time. But that is incorrect. Here is a timeline I came up with using the Hisrory of Oerth from the OJ's and the dates provided in the maure adventures : 5069SD (-447CY) Slerotin creates tunnel in the Crystalmists.
5069-5102SD (-447to-414CY) Slerotin's apprentices establish Maure Castle; create 8pointed star and leave oerth.
5102-5152SD (-414to-364CY) Chamber of Antiquities (level 6) created by Afelbain; Statuary (level 7) created; Afelbain joyous that he witnessed Uncle summon "the prince. Dread talons, 7times making 7passes. Earth trembled and obeyed."
5152-5802SD (-364 to 286CY) levels 8-18 completed.
5249SD (-267CY)Tanilar Kreel, a cultist of the Cult of the Long Shadows,scrawls message before he dies "they know not what they anger"; the Purple Stone tried to subvert all the cults and the Maures; Maures raise the Unopenable Doors.
5202SD (-14CY) Lower levels sealed.
5516-5766SD (1-250CY) Uncle and Vexus have dealings with Rauxes.
5752SD (236CY) Vexus dealing with Duchy of Urnst.
5802SD (286CY) Vexus's repository updated.

Now, what do we know/hypothesize: Uncle summoned the prince early on. If this was Y, then why the need for Dalt later? And all of the extensive rituals to summon one who is already here?
Who or what wanted to destroy the Maures and why?
From the notes from Elluvia to Bersteck, we find that 1. Bersteck had possessions of the Scythe of Yenoghuu, and 2. Elluvia gained possession of it.
Elluvia had unwanted attention from family members.
Orcus was once a servant to Tharizdun.
Why was Afelbain's death depicted in Orcus's painting?
Area 16 of the Greater Halls shows that there were once paintings there. Were they moved to the paintings room? Why?
How did Uncle get to the Lost City of Elders?
Afelbain alludes to something that Elluvia can give Uncle that will make him relent when she wants to create her pit. I believe this is the Book of Dead Names.

NOW FOR THE PAYOFF: Y and the HE in the note about "pray tha the boy is successful so that HE may come, are two differnt beings. Y may be yog sothoth sothoth as surmised in artens post, but I believe him to be a red herring, a fake. Uncle has been around longer than any of the other Maures. He sets up a false god to hide the fact that he secretly worships tharizdun. He obtains the Tome of the Black Heart and summons Kerzit (the prince that Afelbain witnessed being summoned). In the early goings, Dalt was summoned as an unknowing dupe to aid in the illusion that yog sothoth was their god. Convincing Dalt of the same, they send him to supposedly break yog free, but in fact, it was Tharizdun that Uncle wanted to summon to help them destroy the fiends of Rauxes. At the time of the Maures fall, the Great Kingdom was on the move,taking over all around. Their power was much more than Vex surmised. Was that due to Xaenes arrival from another dimension? Hmm. Yea Vex was trying to get in Elluvias pants, but his was the way of gifts and honeyed words (aftr all, he was a merchant and rogue), but it was Bersteck, Elluvias real uncle, who took on thw role of her rapist. Hence overwhelming anger that pours forth when she has the magic mouth scream "Die, Bersteck!" Oh, and by the way, her method of carrying out her excution attempt is the clue to what Malcanthet had her southern attentions on. Elluvia kept stringing Vex along, dangling the goods but never allowing a taste, putty in her hands, gaining information about Uncle until the time was right to strike, then usung his want for hwr as leverage to have him help her in the coup. The picture of Dalt being led by her is correct, she to was misled and deceived by Fraz. So, what happened to Dalt and why was hus painting defaced you ask? The paintings are gates of a sort. They allow access, both ways, to the demon depicted. But they lose their magical properties if destroyed. So by destroying Dalts painting is to close the gate thereby stranding Dalt. Who then, would know that it was Tharizdun and not Yog that would also not want him coming? Malcanthet. Hers was the claws that rent the painting. Berstecks comment "Curse Vex for hus greed was referring to his involvemnt with Rauxes, as he became a turncoat once seeing the true power of the great kingdom and seeing his gain by switching sides,hence the other reason he helped Elluvia summon Malcanthet.

By the way, this also explains the reason there are paintings of Kerzit and Shan Duan mixed in with the others. Now for the proof/link: I finally received my copy of Dark Druids in the mail today. It deals with thw Dark God (as Tharizdun is also known as). On page 43, the list of the Dark quest Series, part 3 is titled Black Heart (as in Tome of the).

THE END.

Thanks for your time reading my ramblings.
Greyhawk lives on! Always!