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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber. *** Pathfinder Society GM. 17 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 31 Organized Play characters.


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I really love this! These are 4 of my favorite classes! They look fantastic. Thanks.

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
Hopefully the investigator, for an iconic he's very generic looking. My money would be on Alahazra though, her style is a little too epic compared to the low tier adventurer theme of the revised iconics.
I strongly disagree. Quinn, the Investigator Iconic, looks awesome. If I was to pick a worst looking one of the options, it'd be Jirelle, the Swashbuckler. There are much better swashbuckler looks to be had...she doesn't even have a ridiculous but stylish hat.

I agree with Deadmanwalking, the investigator iconic is probably my favorite iconic!

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To make this even more complicated. Even though basic attack actions like strike and shove have the attack trait no class obtained attack actions have the trait, such as, Channel Smite, Double Slice, Exacting Strike, Brutish Shove, Snagging Strike ...etc. These are obviously attack actions and should probably contain the 'attack' trait.

If the 'attack' trait is not intended to indicate that something has an attack roll and therefore applies to multi attack penalty then I have no idea what this trait is intended to do...

The biggest problem from this is that there are whole groups of GMs applying multi attack penalties to spells that do not have attack rolls because on page 446 under 'Multiple Attack Penalty' it states, "Every check that has the attack trait counts toward
your multiple attack penalty, including Strikes, spell attack
rolls, certain skill actions like Shove, and many others." This really needs to be addressed since it is too much to errata simply.

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Here is my entire list of spells that need to be looked at for the 'attack trait'

These spells (or focus spells) have the attack trait but do not have a spell attack roll;

Abyssal Plague
Chill Touch
Death Knell
Ghoulish Cravings
Goblin Pox
Mariner's Curse
Outcast's Curse
Spider Sting
Savor the Sting
Touch of Undeath
Force bolt

These spells (or focus spells) do not have the attack trait but do require a spell attack roll;

Polar Ray
Tangle Foot

It should be noted that similar or almost identical spells such as Force Bolt and Magic Missile are marked differently. Magic missile does not have the 'attack' trait and does not require an attack roll. Force Bolt does have the 'attack' trait, does not require an attack roll but is nearly identical to Magic Missile.

Spiritual Guardian and Spiritual Weapon both have the 'attack' trait and specifically say that they apply to multi attack penalty. Weapon of Judgement does not have the attack trait but also specifically says that it applies to the multi attack penalty.

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Ok, I hope this is ok but I have some items that need clarification from some other sources and they were not mentioned in the errata podcast. They might be FAQ items but I think they need changed in the book to clarify. I also suspect that one might be errata for certain spells and only have a couple examples of something that I think might be multiple spells.

1. Do spells and other actions or activities require a flat check for concealment even if they do not have an attack roll. example magic missile or ranger "hunt prey." I'm assuming no, but this should be clarified.

2. Do spells that have the "attack" trait add to multiple attack penalty even if they do not include an spell attack roll? Examples include the spell "Chill Touch."

3. I suspect because of the above question that some of the spells are missing the "attack" trait and other spells should not have that trait but do. I think this trait was intended to indicate that it has a spell attack roll. Examples include "Abyssal Plaque" has attack trait but doesn't have spell attack, "Chill Touch" has attack trait but doesn't have spell attack, "Death Knell" has attack trait but doesn't have spell attack, "Disintegrate" doesn't have attack trait but does require spell attack, "Polar Ray" does not have the attack trait but does require an spell attack. There might be more and if this wasn't the intention behind the "attack" trait then I have no idea what that trait means.

4. "Telekinetic Projectile" should have Ranged Spell attack rather than ranged attack.

5. The Wizard dedication archetype "Arcane school spell" does not give access to "Hand of the Apprentice" since universal wizard is not a school of magic. Was this intended?

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Yes, there are no longer ways to get your odds too high as part of character creation, but there are absolutely ways to do so as active tactics in combat. Sure, you can't up the DC on Slow, but you can choose to target foes you know have a low Fort Save, or those who someone just hit with Demoralize, or various other in-the-moment tactics to increase your odds of success.

The same is true of most other combat options. You can't scale them to the point of being certain of success with static decisions in character creation that will always be active, you have to actively work for the bonuses you get.

You have expressed very clearly why I prefer second edition.

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Page 298 The description for illusion school is very misleading. It says, "Illusion
Illusions create the semblance of something real, fooling
the eyes, ears, and other senses. They almost always have
the mental trait, and depending on how the illusion is
perceived, they might also have the auditory or visual trait."

The school of illusion rarely has the 'Mental' trait.

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The main reason that I feel they can accomplish the speed that they are now showing is because they set up a very intelligently modular approach to their classes. This allows them to create many options that won't break the game. This system is set up in a way that it is stable and requires minimal oversight to avoid disrupting the whole. As an example, there are only three categories of buffs; status, contingency and item. The multiclass options now require you to give up options to gain other options. The proficiency system always keeps players and monsters of the same level in a reasonable range of hit and miss success.

What I'm saying is that with a firm foundation you can fairly safely add features without breaking the system, with reasonable oversight.

With other aspects of the game, such as geography and history, they have 10 years of this world and can easily translate the ideas and changes they have created and changed over that time.

So, I think they have the system and background that allows them to put out new content rather quickly.

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Let's double down on that...The Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, The original Hobbit.

I just love the quirky characters with a dark undertone. I love the way the AP builds upon some pretty serious ideas but keeps the characters important. The way I put it to one of my players was Comedy, Drama and Tragedy.

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Everyone is going to think I'm crazy but I'm dead serious here... The Last Unicorn!

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I follow the idea of showing rather than telling. The fun thing about this is I have begun to make the players start to question their own character's perception.

I have warned them that their actions have consequences. They didn't enter the attic in the alchemist's house, so I had the dark young escape the attic and start breeding (Shub Niggarath is a breeding machine). By the time they reach Katheer the city of Cassomir is overrun. They are told that the port of Cassomir is quarantined.

Everytime they say the name of Zhamen Dor someone in the city dies horrifically.

One of the sailors saw a yellow figure walking on the mist shrouded water and he heard a haunting whistled song. When they arrived in Katheer the song becomes contagious and while gathering information a bar goes from one person whistling a tune in the back of the bar to the whole bar whistling.

There are so many ways to introduce atmosphere.

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I took over the Gming of Strange Aeons after our Gm had to leave for real life. He had attempted to use the Sanity rules. I found them clunky and awkward. I found a way that I preferred to introduce the feeling into the game play.

I basically applied 'afflictions' to each PC based upon their backgrounds and characterizations. I tried to keep them flavorful without causing many actual mechanical penalties.

The witch hunter in my group is the center of superstitions...Black cats cross his path, mirrors inexplicably crack and break, and coins dropped land on edge and people tell him he is cursed but don't remember saying it afterwards.

The witch has an unknown connection to Zhamen Dhor and is highly sexualized by men (and lesbians). She can auto succeed in diplomacy but afterwards is the focus of unwanted advances often ending in brutal fighting amoungst men in the streets. Men pounding each other in the face to win her favor but smiling at her the whole time.

The keneticist is the center of all communication from Klaclatak. So he will stop and say strange things in a deep hollow voice. While being assailed by visions. He also is afraid of corruption so everytime he is near small dead things they animate slightly, twitching and stumbling about.

The witch is connected to the leylines and a character that had the black blood curse. So she is seeing the whole AP as a corruption of the ley lines. Since the ley lines are like magic blood vessels for the multi verse, I have given her body horror. Teeth falling out, disease phobias and fungus.

The characters don't have to do anything for this except react. I have also built some paranoia into the group as well. They do inexplicable things to each other as well as they become more and more influenced by the AP. One character will wake up with all the other characters doing some strange ritual over them while sleep walking. I think these work better for setting the mood than the Sanity rules.

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

I think there are some very basic ideas about the core PF2e Playtest game that NEED to be put at the very front. Things like training (trained, expert, master, legendary) and other things so that people creating their characters actually understand about when they are writing down the various things on their character sheets.

We had this difficulty in the middle of character creation with at least two of our players, with one of them getting excessively frustrated (to put it lightly).

It doesn't need to be long, as the basic idea can probably be covered in a page or two, but it needs to be there so they don't get frustrated at trying to understand what exactly all this lingo about trained and expert means and what numbers that indicates they put on their books.

It's there, but it needs to be highlighted more so that people read it and see it rather than just glossing over it right before they make their characters.

Quick question, did you feel like the information in pages 7 through 10 failed to give the basics?

As an aside, there will be an example of play in Chapter 1 of the final version of the game. It was cut for space in the playtest (which was one of the pieces I really wanted to keep).

These two things would make a huge difference for me. The actual feeling of the playtest is missing from the book in my opinion. This was the final draw for me. I really felt that it was viseral when you were playing the game. I feel that the GM was well instructed in ways to make the numbers and mechanics behind the game fall into the background and make the actual story telling shine. It was really a revelation. I feel this is missing from the book. An example of play in the beginning of the book would help with that.

The second problem I had was that I missed the key to the whole system in the information in pages 7-10. I might have made an assumption about the term Proficiency since it is a common term. Without that very important piece of information, nothing else made sense. When I tried to make a character, I couldn't understand how to apply skills. I simply didn't understand where the numbers came from. Once I understood Proficiency everything else made sense.

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Attack of opportunity

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Ckorik wrote:

It took me around 30 minutes to figure out what the proficiency bonus was for skills (your level if trained) - that's not really an exaggeration - the problem I think was I was trying to follow the 'build your character' section and it never explained where that info was - so I had to search and kept missing it.

There is no entry in the index for skill proficiency by the way.

It took me even longer to understand what Proficiency meant. It is possible that I just assumed that it meant level of training based upon the standard use of the term from other games. I feel that this is the key to almost everything in this system. The system is elegant and simple. The presentation is convoluted and confusing. Once I understood that proficiency was level plus training bonus everything else made sense. Maybe the solution was simply to say it that way rather than combine them into a very common term.

Skill = Level + Training Bonus + Ability Modifier

And do the same for other proficiency dependent things like AC, TAC, Weapon...etc

Or always list a page for proficiency. Or make sure that things like this can't be missed.

I feel like there are too many page bounces to figure out even simple character creation. The classes combined all the heritage, character leveling, skill feats etc. into one simple chart but everything else is located all over the book. Like powers being located in the spells...

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I had the same question about this. I'm still not sure about the meaning and the phrasing needs to be clearer.

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Skullkeeper wrote:
AshVandal wrote:

The basic Wizard and Sorcerer should both be dumped in favor of the Arcanist. It is what casters should have always been with Vancian casting.

Never had a problem with preparing spells in spell slots. Not sure I understand exactly what the complaint is. Although if it helps, I've had a house rule for a long time with my casters that Heighten spell can be applied to any spell that has been metamagiced, as long as you have the heighten spell feat. So it's a bit of a feat tax but makes spell-casting much more enjoyable. Is that similar to what you mean by freedom to prepare any spell in any slot? It only really matters for combat spells.

I'm good with preparing spells, but having to assign specific spell level slots is unnecessary IMO. The real crime is losing the spell once you cast it. This is a throw back to old school Vancian spell casting from the Elric novels (I think). Cleric, Druid, and Wizard lose a prepared spell after they cast it. Bard and Sorcerer appear to be spontaneous casters.

No, I believe the memorized spell concept came from Jack Vance's Dying Earth.