Alcibyades's page

I've been preparing some changes to Saventh-Yhi, that I've collected here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Pav11mT0DK405bZ9mXr7QZKP3xQZbVgM/view?usp= sharing

I had two major goals in the changes I made to Saventh-Yhi: the first was substantiate the sense that Saventh-Yhi was a city of wonders and treasures; the second was to complicate the internal dynamics of some of the districts and the relationships between districts so that PCs had more options to achieve goals than “slay at least 100 vegepygmies.” What you won’t find here is a detailed description of buildings and sites.

In each district I added a minor treasure that is tied to the district and cannot be moved without damaging the item, explaining why Urschlar was unable or unwilling to hide them. I also used the minor treasures to address some of the game-play consequences of Saventh-Yhi’s isolation, such as a chest that summons a Mercane interested in trading magic items.

I also added a more major treasure that ties to the history of the city in each district, treasures either hidden by Urschlar or already hidden by the time he arrived on the scene. I’m planning to put each major treasure in a five room dungeon (nerdsonearth.com/2017/12/5-room-dungeon/) and while I’ve included some notes on both the treasure and the dungeon, I haven’t detailed the dungeons.

I would make finding the minor and major treasures worth a discovery point each.

To differentiate each district I included random encounter tables for each district.

I don’t directly address the conquest conditions spelled out in the text, but I tried to provide new quests/opportunities to form alliances with the various factions.

A major potential source of complication to Saventh-Yhi is the actions taken by and alliances formed by rival factions. I don’t detail them below, but hopefully the quests/dynamics identified for each district can provide ideas for what the other factions are doing: if the PCs run across a rival faction in the mercantile district for instance, they may be trying to capture ketches in order to secure an alliance with Olujimi. The other factions will likely also be in conflict with the PC’s faction over control of some of the minor treasures, particularly those with limited uses.

I removed the Aboleth from the city. The only significant change this required was to change Ugimmo’s (the boggard oracle) reason for being in the Government District.

I’ve elaborated the history of the city quite a bit for my own campaign, but I’ve tried to minimize references to this history from the text.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Some strategies for creating player interest in Savith-Yhi:

Consider adding fabled treasures to the city. I put one in each district and tried to make them things that tied into the ancient history of the city. I just made it so that Urschlar hid many of them, in addition to the argental font. I generally just put them in a five room dungeon, that could be done in a session. Some examples were a drum that disrupted serpent folk telepathy and mental attacks; part of the regalia of the ancient kings and queens that helped protect against aberrations.

Revisit the pacification conditions for the districts. Most of them are kill x number of creatures, which are kind of boring. You can make the various districts interact a little more a way of creating more interesting potential pacification conditions: so if Ergizamora has kidnapped some of the monkeys, rescuing them might be a condition. You can pull from video games: a bodyguarding/escort quest, an item fetch quest, etc. I made the troglodytes a cruel ruling class over cowed lizard folk in the temple district, but the lizard folk would only rebel and ally with the players if the players could bring them the feathers they needed to make a ceremonial headdress, feathers from the camulatz, of course.

Depending on your players you can use the discovery point system as well. As presented it is pretty abstract, but I made little partial clues for each discovery point that could slowly be pieced together in order to get a picture of what had happened to the city. I also included clues about the fabled treasures here and and clues that could help bypass some of the traps and puzzles in the fabled treasure dungeons.

Just some thoughts. Good luck.

Would it be unbalancing to allow an alchemist archetype that used Charisma instead of intelligence for bombs and extracts? What about just for extracts? The fluff is that the alchemist compels or uses magic spirits to power their abilities rather than pseudo-scientific stuff, but the action economy would be mechanically identical.

I raise the extract alone issue because the player wants to play a rogue-replacing beast-morph vivisectionist but wants to re-flavor it so that the beast shape stuff is about using animal spirits and stuff.

Thoughts?

My only concern with the spheres in the sky addition is that it might make the vaults of madness repetitive, since in each part you have to find 7 special mcguffins in each of the districts. But that can be worked around and you have a better sense of whether your players would find it frustrating or not.

I like your ideas for buildings in the districts. I'd throw in some haunts as well (perhaps in the mercantile district so you can have undead without worrying about them overrunning the place). Haunts could be a way of providing information about ancient Savanth-yin too.

The racing pools could also be sacrificial pools where they through offerings? Perhaps something has animated these ancient offerings?

Seems like good ideas so far! I'm interested to see what you have planned for the rest, especially since you have so much intrigue going on.

Those are some good ideas Shimnimnim. I guess I'll have to play the faction and exploration stuff by ear and see what the players are more interested in.

I think Juliver's role is important because she lets the characters know about Illumeria and she's also involved with the only serpentfolk enemy in books 3&4.

I'm thinking I'll make her be an ancient Azlant vampire who was placed in stasis (similar to the Cyclops), but who has been found and dominated by the serpent folk necromancer in book 3. That way she can tell characters that the serpent folk are up to something underground without necessarily upstaging the PCs. I figured you could play off her ancestral dislike of Serpentfolk to get to her to cooperate, somewhat, with the PCs.

I'm not sure about how to motivate the characters in book 5 if you take out the search for Eandro Kline.

I'm thinking of running this adventure path in the next couple of months: something about the setting and the idea of it is really appealing. That said, the AP seems to have some weaknesses that, if addressed, could make for a more fun experience for all concerned. From reading the AP and what people have said on this board here is my sense of the problems with the AP.

1) Racing to Ruin feels too much like a rail road.
2) The serpent folk kind of disappear in the adventure path, which is troubling because they are the final antagonist of the first adventure and of the last adventure path as a whole.
3) Saventh-Yhi isn't all that well fleshed out, can be boring and the adventures that take place there are needlessly separated.
Some things about Saventh-Yhi just don't make a ton of sense to me--I don't see what the Aboleth adds to the adventure.
It also doesn't seem like there is a lot of opportunity for non-combat resolution of conflict, so many of the groups in the city are unwaveringly hostile to the PCs.
4) For all the talk of the characters being the first to discover the city, NPC pathfinders got there first and end up being really important to the plot.
5) The player's motivation needs to change throughout the AP, though this isn't really addressed in the text. In the first they just want to survive and get back to land. In 2-4 they are in some weird competition? and in 5-6 they need to avert the rise of an evil god.

I have some thoughts on how to deal with some of these issues, but I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone has or comments on any other problems they encountered/forsee with the AP. A lot of people on this board have already taken steps to deal with some of the issues, especially of fleshing out Saventh-Yhi and it seems like the best way to make the Saventh-Yhi portion fun is to play up the element of competition/rivalry with the other factions, so I'll make sure to emphasize that.

I'm thinking of adapting the chase rules to make a kind of overland race. The race would consist of cards with skill challenges on them, but the party's goal is to accumulate a number of cards before the rival factions do, (which represents who gets to Tazion or Kalabuto first). To diminish the railroady-ness of it maybe I'd give the players the choice of two cards where they could see name of the encounter but not necessarily the details of the DCs (so players could choose, for instance, between facing the hungry hippos or the treacherous ford and could make educated guesses about what skills they could use). It would be easy to throw in random encounters into the deck as well. I think I'd still like to use some of the set encounters as well, as well as some way for the pcs to interact with other factions.

I'm less sure how address the fact that scheming serpent folk disappear from the adventure path till about book 5. I guess what makes the most sense is to have serpent folk infiltrate some of the rivals in Racing to Ruin and then work at cross purposes with the PC's while they are in Saventh-Yhi. Maybe they are looking for a way to get to Ilmuria. Because I think the Aboleth is kind of a wasted opportunity, I was thinking of putting something serpent folk related in that pool. Maybe there is an underwater crypt or something that the serpent folk are looking for, or use to unleash some kind of monster on the various groups in Saventh-Yhi.

The other big stumbling block from a plot point of view is how to motivate parts 4 and 5 without having the pathfinders already in Ilmuria. The PC's only find out about the portal because a pathfinders stumbles out of it and book 5 is all about rescuing a pathfinder. I'm toying with the idea of replacing the pathfinder with survivors from the original Saventh-Yhi. Not really "survivors" but undead Zura-cultists who were placed in stasis or something to explain how they survived so long and to tie to the Zura temple in adventure 1 as well. Also thinking about making the Urdefhans into ancient Zura cultists who were cast into Abbadon and transformed there.

I'm not sure how to address the PC's motivations. They get a prophetic vision at the beginning of racing to ruin, but I'm not sure it would make a ton of sense or let them know what is at stake in the following encounters.

I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions as to how to make the adventure path as enjoyable as possible?

I had a little too much time on my hands this weekend so I took a crack at this and tried to be systematic about it here.

Many of the abilities granted are fantastical, but they generally pale in comparison to what a spell caster could do at an equivalent level, so I'm not too worried about that. What I am worried about is how some of the abilities would work with the vast number of abilities granted by feats, classes and archetypes, and I would like to close any loopholes that allow abuse. Some of the mechanics may be clunky, obsolete or incompatible with existing rules so suggestions there would be good (I haven't invested much in system mastery).

It's very much a work in progress and doesn't fulfill all the goals I set for it (not all of the skills have an ability that scales, for instance)and I didn't do anything for ride, fly, knowledge or UMD as I feel like they stay relevant and used, though I may be wrong.

Lastly there is very little in here that is original, lots of it is just lifted from Tarkisflux's Tome of Prowess for 3.5.

Have fun.

This is kind of a change in direction, but could we help the rogue by rejigging the "shot on the run" feat? As it stands right now it is pretty much impossible to start hidden, shoot something and then be hidden. There's sniping, but that is pretty hard to pull off and it would be nice if a rogue could move from one location with cover/concealment to another and get in an attack along the way. For flavor reasons this seems like a rogueish thing to do.

The issues with shot on the run are the requirements that don't make a ton of sense. It requires Dodge, Mobility and Point Blank Shot. I take it that Dodge and Mobility are there to make the feat analagous, cost wise, to spring attack. But neither of them, mobility especially, have anything to do with what the feat lets you do. I'm not moving through threatened squares to take a shot on the run, generally. And the feat costs one feat more than spring attack already. You can only take a standard action while using feat on the run, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to let rogues have this, as another way to make a sneak attack, for less than three feats.

Halflings would make the best seafarers ever!

The dex thing, the bonus to climb, the bonus to thrown weapons, all are good selling points.
Even the penalty to strength isn't that big a problem, since lots of work on a sailing ship is team work.

But the biggest reason (and also the reason why halflings should rule the world), is that halflings need to eat way less and drink less. If they are sailing in ships with the same capacity as regular ships (and why wouldn't they?) they could stay at sea for way longer or they could carry more cargo. In either case they've got a big advantage over medium sized creatures.

Back in Mystara halflings were dreaded pirates, or at least that's what it said in the five shires gazeteer.

I haven't used them yet, but do plan on it. Somebody, I think on the wizards board, uses them so that the DM gets none to start, but everytime a player uses one, the DM gets a point to use that session.

Good advice so far,
I'd also advise cutting things out.
Make a list of things that you don't want to be in the world. You could eliminate drow, chromatic dragons, metallic dragons, corporeal undead,the astral plane, the outer planes, the underdark, elves, etc., etc.,.
Doing so really frees you up to twist things in new ways. If there aren't chromatic or metallic dragons, but there are dragons, what are the dragons like and what role do they play? If drow aren't the evil sub-species of elves, do good elves have a traditional foe? What happens when good elves go bad?
The advantage of this is that it really lets your players know that it's a new world that they are playing in. One disadvantage is that it can can conflict with the races or classes that the players want to play. If you eliminate divine spell casting and someone has their heart set on playing a druid, you've got some comprimising to do.
The other thing to do is to steal. From books, movies, tv, myths and even from other cultures. You just have to make sure that all the stuff you steal fits together, and isn't terribly cliche. Some cliche is good.
Cheers.

I agree with Stephen Marks, I don't use racial gods. I usually use a pretty small pantheon (8 gods currently), and i give them more than two or three domains.
I also try and make the gods and their priests a little like real world polytheistic gods and thier priests, so I make clerics choose at least one "moral" domain, and not just two domains that don't necessarily have anything to do with how people live in the world. (moral domains include things like good, evil, protection, etc.)
Green Ronin's "The Book of the Righteous" has a really good take on dieties, and very well worked, and interesting, pantheon.
Cheers

Robin Hood is an intersting case, but I think it shows that people are more complicated than alignments capture.

Depending on what version you are reading, Robin Hood is an outlaw, who steals from the rich to give to the poor, (probably chaotic). Except that the laws are unjust, and are being perpetrated by John the Usurper and his cronies. Robin Hood actually spends lots of time trying restore the rightful ruler of England, Richard Lion Heart, who, since Robin Hood is actually a noble, is Robin's Liege. So it's not as though Robin doesn't think that there are rules that should govern succession (!) and taxation, it's just the rules being enforced in England are unjust. Another thing to consider is that, shouldn't a character that is lawful good also be struggling against unjust laws and a pretender to the throne?

Alcibyades, no offense, but how in the world do you expect that level of physics to hold up in D&D, where the basic ecosystem is quite impossible? And, once again, you're making the alignments too dramatic.

No offense taken,

Yes, the chaotic person could be an anarchist, but one who cares for his fellow people and would seek to help them (good) or would not consider harming them without good reason (neutral), or feels that rules are actually just a way for the powerful to abuse the weak, in which case he would not be chaotic because of passive views, but due to actively railing against all forms of laws in general, even if he activities by themselves would make him Neutral (if his activities by themselves would make him Lawful, then his true alignment is Neutral, not Chaotic, due to his opposition of laws, unless he's deluding himself, in which case he could still be lawful and hate laws).

Or, this person could feel that any form of law merely constrains his personal potential, and he will do anything he needs to in order to accomplish his goals, with no compassion for anyone else, or perhaps even an enjoyment of their suffering (Evil).

Sound complicated?

Two things: Specifically regarding Chaotic Good. I don't really see how a person that examines all the evidence can really be chaotic good, if being chaotic good is being opposed to all laws (i.e., being an anarchist) and really care about other people. There's just way too much historical and empirical evidence that shows that anarchies are not good for the public good. It seems to me like you have to either cling to your chaotic good principles in the face of contrary evidence (which is a kind of moral failing or just being stupid) or give up the anarchist position.

While I certainly agree that the alignment system can be confusing, as can real people, I am not so sure that they are confusing in ways that map onto each other. People are complicated because they delude themselves, because they have moments of weakness, because they try to do the right thing and fail, because they repent for doing the wrong thing and for many other reasons as well. Alignments are complicated because they involve relations to abstract things like Laws, as your example clearly shows. Consider the case of neutral on the law-chaos axis: I think you say that someone who says that they are chaotic, but whose actions are really lawful, is really neutral. Such a person would be neutral by default. But surely there are other ways of being neutral: some one who is pragmatic about laws might be neutral, as might someone who has no opinion about them at all. In this way, Neutral is too broad a category, as there are too many ways of being neutral that have little to do with each other. I think that this is true for most of the alignment categories. All that I am saying, is that if alignments are supposed to provide a guide to roleplaying and convey information about a character there are better ways of doing just that.

Cheers,

Hey,

It seems to me like alignment serves two primary roles: on the one hand it provides a mechanical way of dealing with moral conflict (detect evil, smite evil), and on the other hand alignments are a way of conveying information about a character and providing a guide for role playing (i.e., you can make some assumptions about a character that has been declared Lawful Good and you have some sense of how the character will behave in some situations).

The OP provided a revised mechanic for dealing with moral conflict: detect evil, protection from evil, smite evil, etc., apply only to outsiders and sometimes the undead, but not to mere mortals. Some claim that this weakens clerics and paladins and this is true. However, clerics can handle a little weakening, and paladins could be given a bonus feat at 3rd level and every 5th thereafter, or some other such fix, to make up for it. Nobody ever said that being a virtuous paladin should be easy.

I think that there are good flavor reasons for this mechanical change: it creates a strong distinction between us mere mortal dwellers of the material plane and other-wordly creatures: fiends, angels, etc. Whereas mortal lives are governed by a kind of freedom and the possibility of redemption, outsiders are supposed to be, by thier very nature, good or evil. I think that this makes mortal characters easier to identify with and makes the difference between the material plane and other planes more interesting. The mechanical change also provides lots of story possibilites, as has been mentioned, i.e., a fiend's need for human servants.

When it comes to conveying information about a character, and serving as a guide to roleplay, I'm not sure that the alignment system works well, largely because some parts of it just don't make sense, at least not to me. Someone who is chaotic good is supposed to prize freedom about all else, and be opposed to law, but isn't it the case that freedoms are best protected when they are protected by law, like in the bill of rights? Are chaotic good characters supposed to be anarchists that think that everything will turn out for the best if every one is free to choose? I don't want to think that all chaotic good characters are stupid, but I don't know what else to say about their amazing ability to ignore the fact that anarchies don't transform into utopias, quite the opposite in fact.

And what's with law and chaos as opposing cosmic forces anyhow? What does that even mean? Chaos theory is actually very law governed, and there are laws about entropy too.

There's also the fact that many of the alignment categories are really broad (and at the same time very narrow) and alignments themselves don't allow a lot of room for human complication and complexity.

I think that there are better ways of conveying information about characters and guiding role play. I get my players to answer two questions on behalf of their characters: 1) What things are of value to your character? 2)How important is loyalty to your character, and to whom is your character loyal?
A few sentences suffices to give both me and the players a sense of who their character is and what things will motivate their character, which ultimately leads to easier adventure planning and a better insertion of the character into the world. That's how I do it, and i'm sure that there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing that work better than the nine standard alignments.

You can still have games where morality is important and there are moral consequences to characaters' actions without using a simple good vs. evil axis and the even more bizarre law vs. chaos axis, so no, alignments aren't necessary.