The more I read through the AP, the less I care for the Endo Kline subplot. To sum it up in bullet points:
- Discovery seems to be one of the biggest themes of the AP. From a deserted island to an ancient lost city to an even more ancient city located a thousand feet below, it seems like the whole thing is about the party being explorers in a foreign land.
- But then Juliver shows up at the end of Book 3, and reveals to the party that it's actually not about them, but about this guy Endo Kline, who found this even more ancient city. From here on out, it's about finding the gems to get into the vaults ASAP.
- When you do find the gems and go to Ilmurea, you end up needing to rescue Endo Kline. Which essentially means you no longer get to explore Ilmurea, because you're on a mission. It's this wonderful looking map, but it's not for the party, really.
- Once you rescue him, he reveals every detail about the city, including its hidden purpose, and the purpose of the villains, who you guys maybe didn't recognize as the villains yet, but they're important. After that the party doesn't really have even the illusion of agency. It almost feels like they're accesories rather than heroes.
Those are my gripes, really. And I figure the best way to handle it is to remove Endo Kline's subplot entirely. This has actually worked out so far! The group is collecting the crystals, even though they have no idea what they are for yet (they have one so far, but the one in the temple district). So removing Juliver has been a success so far.
But soon I'll be in trouble, because once they get into Ilmurea, I have no idea how to proceed. I figure they'll want to look around. I can't imagine them rushing in to save a figure they know nothing about. And skipping book 5 seems out of the question because it's neat and fun.
I've read reviews of people back in book 3 who just HATED that there was that Pathfinder who somehow found Saventh-Yhi before the PCs. I figure those people were at least as bugged about the Endo Kline arc, and I'm curious to hear how they pulled these things off in their own campaign.
Other things worth mentioning:
- I have a gnome prophecy, which a new member of our team will have. It's not complete yet, but it will specify some of the PCs roles while still being vague.
- That serpentfolk from book 2 technically survived, though I haven't touched him since. They know nothing of his goal, so he could theoretically be of use.
I think Juliver's role is important because she lets the characters know about Illumeria and she's also involved with the only serpentfolk enemy in books 3&4.
I'm thinking I'll make her be an ancient Azlant vampire who was placed in stasis (similar to the Cyclops), but who has been found and dominated by the serpent folk necromancer in book 3. That way she can tell characters that the serpent folk are up to something underground without necessarily upstaging the PCs. I figured you could play off her ancestral dislike of Serpentfolk to get to her to cooperate, somewhat, with the PCs.
I'm not sure about how to motivate the characters in book 5 if you take out the search for Eandro Kline.
They both should be put up against a wall.....unfortunately our GM was inflexible and the pair stuck around.
One reason we have stopped playing APs....too npc centric for our tastes
Ilmurea is already revealed. But what it is is still up for debate.
And I figure the best way to handle it is to remove Endo Kline's subplot entirely.
I'm really of the same opinion, although my players didn't mind Nareem Dess because in their minds he "didn't really make it all the way into the city."
I've been thinking about this more and for two reasons -
1.) We're about to finish Book 3 so if I want to make a change, I need to make one soon AND
2.) My players are in the Sargavan Faction and thus far have had several negative interactions with the Pathfinders and I don't know that "helping" a Pathfinder - either Juliver or Kline - is enough to motivate them to get far enough to learn the important information.
I am trying to find a way to figure this out... You could get rid of Juliver and Sozolotha and have the final battle of Book 3 be with Serpentfolk Seekers sent by Vyr-Azul to investigate the goings on in Saventh-Yhi. Maybe they broke the crystals to seal the way behind them, because they have a scroll of teleport in order to get back?
There's one big problem I have with this. Fighting serpentfolk doesn't make my characters suspicious anymore. Not after Yarzoth, Issilar, and the Degenerate Serpentfolk. So, the Seekers would have to have something on them to tip the players off that they came from below and that something big is happening down there. (Also, entering through the vault would make the Seekers insane, no?). Still working on fleshing this idea out. Let me know what you think and if you have any ideas/suggestions.
NPC backstory-wise, Eando has a history with trying to quell the upcoming serpentfolk rising (this story is told within the Second Darkness AP.). It would make sense that he stumbled onto Illumeria also since he kept the wayfinder. He doesn't necessarily have to have found it through the City of Seven Spears either.
It really just depends on whether the players are following the Pathfinder lore and would appreciate being part of it, or whether they might better appreciate 'being first'.
Also, if any of your characters are pathfinders or one is a bard, they would have likely heard of Eando Kline.
As for not using Eando, the morlocks, urdefhans, ropers, or any number of sentient darkland beings could be used (if the characters use a little diplomacy) to figure out what is going on down there. You could repurpose Juliver, the Aboleth, or even the Radiant Muse as well.
Okay. Um... rather than remove Endo Kline, why not just remove the fact he was a Pathfinder? Maybe he was just a famous adventurer/explorer that was not affiliated with any group at all. I mean, how many players even bother learning anything about the Golarion world, let alone which people are in an organization set in that world that they have no interest in?
Sometimes people overthink things. There's a simpler solution to excising Endo, and that's just not having him be a Pathfinder.
i haven't really read the thread but most people that aren't big Golarion fans or even know much about it have never even heard of him, i built him up in our game years ago, and even still when whats her face told them what happened they were like "Who?"
i don't really think he's very necessary and can certainly be expunged with minimal effort:)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay. Um... rather than remove Endo Kline, why not just remove the fact he was a Pathfinder? Maybe he was just a famous adventurer/explorer that was not affiliated with any group at all. I mean, how many players even bother learning anything about the Golarion world, let alone which people are in an organization set in that world that they have no interest in?
Sometimes people overthink things. There's a simpler solution to excising Endo, and that's just not having him be a Pathfinder.
The problem isn't Eando's connection to the Pathfinders, it's the fact that the entire campaign is about this big undiscovered city that the PCs found full of a hostile race of creatures thought to be extinct and the ancient lost culture they discover there... eeeeeeexcept they weren't the first explorers there, this NPC was. It takes the PCs' moments of big exploratory, discovery-centric glory and snatches it out from under their nose and hands it to an NPC.
I don't play in Golarion, but I know if I pulled that with any of my NPCs - even the ones the players know well, due to recurring in several campaigns or me just talking about them or playing them up in game - having them show up out of nowhere and undermine the players' triumphs with "Nope, this guy was here all along, you guys were just a tad too slow" the response would be "Who's this douchebag?!" and a great deal of irritation and upset. Doubly so if the character is supposed to be an ally, rather than an enemy they can punch in the face to get their frustrations out.
There are plenty of explorers who weren't the first to discover some ancient city or the like. However, it's the ones who RETURN who are the ones who get credit. It's the PCs who get credit for finding the underground city because they're the ones who survived. If they rescue some great explorer who was captured and never returned? So what. Without them, that person would still be a prisoner. The PCs are the heroes here.
Besides. The underground city is just icing on the cake. The PCs first go to discover an ancient city in the middle of a jungle... which they found out about because of some previous explorer. It's like complaining that the Goonies didn't discover the treasure map first because some treasure hunter died because of booby traps and they find his body. So? Who cares.
The campaign is about the players learning about a dread threat under an ancient city in the jungle and preventing an ancient horror from being reborn. It isn't about finding an underground city inhabited by several factions in the Underdark or the like. And really, those factions mean even without Kline the PCs were NOT THE FIRST ONES TO FIND THE CITY.
The more I read through the AP, the less I care for the Endo Kline subplot. To sum it up in bullet points:
- Discovery seems to be one of the biggest themes of the AP. From a deserted island to an ancient lost city to an even more ancient city located a thousand feet below, it seems like the whole thing is about the party being explorers in a foreign land.
- But then Juliver shows up at the end of Book 3, and reveals to the party that it's actually not about them, but about this guy Endo Kline, who found this even more ancient city. From here on out, it's about finding the gems to get into the vaults ASAP.
- When you do find the gems and go to Ilmurea, you end up needing to rescue Endo Kline. Which essentially means you no longer get to explore Ilmurea, because you're on a mission. It's this wonderful looking map, but it's not for the party, really.
- Once you rescue him, he reveals every detail about the city, including its hidden purpose, and the purpose of the villains, who you guys maybe didn't recognize as the villains yet, but they're important. After that the party doesn't really have even the illusion of agency. It almost feels like they're accesories rather than heroes.
Emphasis mine.
Clearly the person who started the thread disagrees with you. So your adamant stance that they're wrong isn't exactly helping. It's like going into a thread titled "I don't like purple" and where the poster is asking "What can I do to change this to green?" and replying with "Well you can just change it to a more reddish shade of purple".
If you want to play down the discovery aspect of the plot in your own take on the campaign, more power to you. But Shimnimnim seems definitely irked by Eando stealing the spotlight in that regard.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who's played through Serpent's Skull - the Eando Kline plotline was critical, because it gave us a clear objective, and its the only motivation there is to actually get through Book 4. (YMMV, but I found books 1, 5, and 6 to the strong parts of the AP.)
"Explore city block, meet locals, kill them because everyone but one district are murderous psychos" got old pretty quickly. (Aside: Our group's actual battle cry became I hate this city!)
Now, we mocked the hell out of Eando after we saw his actual stat block and completely rewrote him as an archeologist bard. Because we wanted him to actually be useful.
And honestly, you beat Eando to Savith-Yi; Eando, to his great misfortune, beat you to Ilmuria. There is a distinction.
[Though I think book 3 reveals someone else who actually beat you to the city, but they also died horribly? Maybe at the hands of that hag?]
The party SHOULD explore Ilmuria before they try to jailbreak Eando. We sure as hell did. It's important to stress that Eando tried to the take on the Fortress of A Thousand Fangs and lost and the party needs to do recon, scope out their potential allies, and avoid repeating his mistake.
@ TheNovaLord - I might regret saying this but if Eando and Juliver were managing to show up your party in actual game play, something was seriously wrong. Eando and Juliver have weak builds (Juliver's actually very useful if she continues to level in her prestige class, but she's purely support) and they're snake food without the party's help. Maybe your GM seriously overhauled them and gave them several levels or something?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Juliver's role is important because she lets the characters know about Illumeria and she's also involved with the only serpentfolk enemy in books 3&4.
I'm thinking I'll make her be an ancient Azlant vampire who was placed in stasis (similar to the Cyclops), but who has been found and dominated by the serpent folk necromancer in book 3. That way she can tell characters that the serpent folk are up to something underground without necessarily upstaging the PCs. I figured you could play off her ancestral dislike of Serpentfolk to get to her to cooperate, somewhat, with the PCs.
I'm not sure about how to motivate the characters in book 5 if you take out the search for Eandro Kline.
I think this is probably your best course of action. Replace Eando and company with folks who didn't DISCOVER Ilmurea, but who HAVE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG (Morlocks? Low-level Azlanti awakened from a temporal stasis?).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking as someone who just finished as a player in this AP, I can tell you we weren't as put out by Kline having arrived (as noted by Zhangar, in Ilmurea rather than Saventh-Yhi) before us as we were by:
(a) the high reverence he receives from the morlocks, who think he's the Second Coming of the old Azlanti (minutes after we rescued an Eando Kline who could barely stand on his own, we freed and armed a couple hundred morlock prisoners, and joked that those who survived the escape would tell everyone the story of how the Great Kline freed them.)
(b) the rather facile info-dump the PCs get from Kline, which amounts to "No need for you to investigate anything, I already know what's going on and have a plan for what you should do next. Just follow my lead." He also made a big deal out of the fact that he would be able to lock the seven spears into place at the start of Book 6 (thus preserving the fiction of Azlanti blood and his status with the morlocks.) Kind of wish we'd taken him down a peg by using UMD to do that ourselves, but IIRC there was a chance -- maybe 15%? -- of not achieving the needed result that way, so we let him use his ioun stone.
So, yeah, I'd agree with those who advocate removing Kline from the story. It doesn't matter how many people reach the lost city ahead of us if we're the first to successfully exploit it, but handing over the directorial reins to a pompous and deceitful NPC 2-3 levels below us was a bit irritating.
EDIT: On a completely different note, our group would have much preferred that the whole morlock community had been replaced with something neutrally aligned. Our players always have Good or well-behaved Neutral characters, but every AP puts them in situations where theye have to ally with evil characters or groups to get things done. That sort of thing can be an interesting roleplaying challenge if done rarely, but quickly gets tiresome.
EDIT: On a completely different note, our group would have much preferred that the whole morlock community had been replaced with something neutrally aligned.
From what I remember, the "friendly" faction of morlocks behave quite neutrally. Were they all stated evil? If so, this was an easy thing for the GM to change though. One problem here is that due to the nature of the darklands, seemingly nothing sentient is non-evil. It would also have been nice if your only allies weren't also the "food" for everything else living in the city, but it does kind of add to the flavor ... ;)
Since I'll be merging Serpent's Skull with my upcoming Savage Tide game, I'll probably replace the morlocks with the mongrelfolk town from The Lightless Depths.
From what I remember, the "friendly" faction of morlocks behave quite neutrally. Were they all stated evil? If so, this was an easy thing for the GM to change though. One problem here is that due to the nature of the darklands, seemingly nothing sentient is non-evil. It would also have been nice if your only allies weren't also the "food" for everything else living in the city, but it does kind of add to the flavor ... ;)
They didn't behave as evil toward us, but since the Bestiary stats them as evil and notes a predeliction toward cannibalism, they were presented to us as sort of "alignment Pathetic Evil." Udarra pinged the detect evil radar. It's true the urdefhan were worse, and we were in the position of having to ally with both the lesser and least of three evils against the worst of the lot: the serpentfolk. This is not a position a LG Cleric or a Paladin care to be in. It didn't much trouble our LN Ranger or LN Fighter, though they did think the urdefhan were pretty much a-holes, continually rude and threatening toward us for no particular reason, even after we killed their traitor and brought back his gear.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a player who's character died. The player has already posited to me that Saventh-Yhi was some kind of seal keeping Ydersius from coming back. He asked me if he could create an Azlanti wizard for his new character, awakened from a temporal stasis with missing memories. I am going to replace Juliver with him (the timing is perfect - they just hit level 10). He's got missing memories, but know they need to find the rest of the temporal stasis Azlanti from Ilmurea and check on the garrison there (that'll be a big surprise). I am changing Eando to one of these temporal stasis Azlanti, known as "the Engineer." Helps to explain how he knows about the Spears as a weapon/invasion route.
... He asked me if he could create an Azlanti wizard for his new character, awakened from a temporal stasis with missing memories. I am going to replace Juliver with him ...
I am preparing something similar to guide my players toward the Ilmurea. A new player joined our grouped. He wanted to play a dwarf wizard, so instead of making him come from the Faction, we decided to have him wake up in Saventh-Yhi with many of his memories wiped and insane for weeks before meeting the rest of the PCs. All he knows for now is that he had been adventuring in the Darklands. So this new player is essentially replacing Juliver as his memories will be restored.