Warning: There may be very minor Kingmaker spoilers in my posts.
I'm playing a Kitsune in Kingmaker and I'm becoming a neutral Master Spy who wants to create a faceless guild of other spies. We're still pretty early in the game (level 3), but my character has decided to begin building an underground lair to eventually house her cohorts. I'm essentially trying to build a guild of neutral spies that gather information and use it to shape the world.
Obviously, at such a low level, there's not much I can do yet. However, I want to hear your ideas for what I should be planning. How can I build an underground lair secretly? I'm considering using an abandoned alchemist's shack as the entryway, and I might be able to convince some kobolds to do the work. However, I might have to hire people. How do I do that without arousing suspicion?
How would you build a secret lair? And how would you secretly recruit the guild members?
1. where to build: I have always chosen the hide in plain sight rationale; everyone's going to be wary of the crazy alchemist's shack that's been abandoned since he lost his marbles, but nobody's going to have a problem with the town barber or a perfectly natural hole in a big tree.
2. How: I've never used humanoids, though that's one good way to get around people knowing (people you might run into later anyway). You could also use the fight club mentality: have the guild members build their OWN place. Personally I prefer heavy use of magic: unseen servants, summoned creatures, undead, and creation spells.
3. Recruitment: watch any spy movie franchise that starts at the beginning of the recruit's career. Hook 'em young and make sure they're loners, no family, possibly with a troubled home life. You'll want to frequent military establishments, schools and bars; anywhere your target is likely to be. Finally its all about compromising, as in making sure you put your recruit in a compromising position. Nothing ensures loyalty to the firm better than snapping some photos of the married recruit in bed with a floozy or keeping evidence of their first murder.
My Rouge did something similar in our "evil" Kingmaker campaign. In terms of building a secret lair.. I have always been a fan of having a "front".
Claim an unused warehouse as a location for your "merchants guild". Within the warehouse, there might be any number of traders, officers, storage rooms, etc. You could recruit guild members through the guise of the merchants guild, and have laborers work for the guild to dig an "extra storage area" in the basement, and then kill off those that know the true extent of the warehouse. *Bazinga* Spy Network Starter Kit.
1. where to build: I have always chosen the hide in plain sight rationale; everyone's going to be wary of the crazy alchemist's shack that's been abandoned since he lost his marbles, but nobody's going to have a problem with the town barber or a perfectly natural hole in a big tree.
2. How: I've never used humanoids, though that's one good way to get around people knowing (people you might run into later anyway). You could also use the fight club mentality: have the guild members build their OWN place. Personally I prefer heavy use of magic: unseen servants, summoned creatures, undead, and creation spells.
3. Recruitment: watch any spy movie franchise that starts at the beginning of the recruit's career. Hook 'em young and make sure they're loners, no family, possibly with a troubled home life. You'll want to frequent military establishments, schools and bars; anywhere your target is likely to be. Finally its all about compromising, as in making sure you put your recruit in a compromising position. Nothing ensures loyalty to the firm better than snapping some photos of the married recruit in bed with a floozy or keeping evidence of their first murder.
Great advice all around. Thanks.
I have a few places that are "in plain sight" that might work. I thought the alchemist's shack would be kind of "in plain sight" if I rebuild it and had someone manning it like a small farm or store, or even if I left it abandoned like the Dark Brotherhood's house in Oblivion. People know it's there and abandoned. Why bother it?
My Rouge did something similar in our "evil" Kingmaker campaign. In terms of building a secret lair.. I have always been a fan of having a "front".
Claim an unused warehouse as a location for your "merchants guild". Within the warehouse, there might be any number of traders, officers, storage rooms, etc. You could recruit guild members through the guise of the merchants guild, and have laborers work for the guild to dig an "extra storage area" in the basement, and then kill off those that know the true extent of the warehouse. *Bazinga* Spy Network Starter Kit.
I always find that killing people off causes too much stir. Plus, the guild is going to be more neutral than that. Very little direct action or killings. I'd like most of our deaths to be caused by events we created and controlled rather than through assassinations (framing people, stirring up infighting or war, etc).
Think true neutral.
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Neutral spies = druids?
Regardless of the moral bent of your recruits it doesn't change the profile of potential hopefuls. If you find someone with an agenda, a fanataical/compulsive personality or lots of attachements/interpersonal needs then chances are they're more of a liability than an asset. Now, this isn't to say you COULDN'T have someone like that in the guild: Sometimes having a happy daddy type who's great at keeping a family together is good for morale.
Bottom line though most of your operatives will be people who 1. place no attachment on others (since most of their spying will get SOMEONE hurt), 2. can be cut loose at a moment's notice, and 3. are used to disappearing since (see 1. and 2. above).
For some reason overly religious types don't work; not even if their god is one of neutrality. If they zealously believe in something greater than themselves they may be willing to martyr themselves. What's the one thing that's consistent with most martyrs? They're rememberered. If you're in the business of being invisible this is disadvantageous.
Now from all you've said you're going to be doing a lot of spying. Then you'll be using the info gained to "shape the world". Ostensibly you have an agenda and a specific world view, an "end world" you're shooting for. You might want to subtly probe for dissidents who are willing to pass on their current world for something you'll provide.
Just be careful not to find radicals; just malcontents. You don't want martyrs remember. You basically want someone like me; willing to complain about the politics of the day and maybe even take SOME action, so long as it doesn't conflict with my gaming or TV schedules...
Another great place to find folks like this is coffee shops. Since this is a fantasy game about unexplored wilderness seek out a tavern or a crossroads. Park yourself and simply listen without comment to those who come by and are willing to jaw with you. If they fit mostly into the picture above trick them into an initial mission and be sure to keep the evidence.
For some reason overly religious types don't work; not even if their god is one of neutrality. If they zealously believe in something greater than themselves they may be willing to martyr themselves. What's the one thing that's consistent with most martyrs? They're rememberered. If you're in the business of being invisible this is disadvantageous.
Unless I build a religion out of the guild. The Faceless Men from the Song of Ice and Fire are a good example. Sometimes the religious are perfect candidates for these types or organizations.
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Two important spying considerations for kitsune [and I'm sure you've looked at them]; the feats "Realistic Likeness" and "Fox Shape" make for one heck of a spy setup. Look like anyone you want, and vanish into the shrubbery when you need to. The fox shape is also good for accessing your secret spy lair. That hole in a tree mentioned up-thread? It's even less conspicuous when it's sized for a humble little fox that frequents the local city park [which just happens to be adjacent to the building being used as a front].
I also endorse using the members of the organization to construct or repurpose your spy lairs. They have a vested interest in maintaining their own security, and plausible covers for the work [renovations or opening new businesses, for example].
You may want to start the network as simply an internal intelligence service with the goal of providing for the security of the fledgling kingdom. It's easier to recruit locals who, again, have a vested interest in the project. When the kingdom feels it's time to engage in some diplomatic endeavors, then you can start to expand your scope of operations. Preferably prior to open diplomatic overtures, actually. You want to know everything you can about your international dance partner before the diplomats start talking.
You don't have to be particularly secretive with the first phase of the operation; just classify it as part of your government's diplomatic service. That's the public face of the spy network. Then, once you have some organization in place, you can start with a small crew of trusted spooks that can start hunting up the motivated malcontents and recruiting them for the more shadowy layer of your organization.
You got my brain twirling; I've been wanting to play a character like this for a while, and all of the little ideas are pinging around . . .
Two important spying considerations for kitsune [and I'm sure you've looked at them]; the feats "Realistic Likeness" and "Fox Shape" make for one heck of a spy setup. Look like anyone you want, and vanish into the shrubbery when you need to. The fox shape is also good for accessing your secret spy lair. That hole in a tree mentioned up-thread? It's even less conspicuous when it's sized for a humble little fox that frequents the local city park [which just happens to be adjacent to the building being used as a front].
I took Realistic Likeness at level 1. It's been insanely useful. I'm planning to take Fox Shape at level 5. I have to use level 3 and 7 for the prereqs for Master Spy. The rest of that sounds great.
Besides mundane disguises, how should I protect the lair? I'm new to building anything, but I'm assuming traps and magical wards of some kind would be useful.
I never understod why the standard location for these things was the sewers.
Given the kind of group you are talking about I think a villa or estate close to a major city would be ideal. You know walls, gardens, quiet peaceful looking place.
But oh what goes on in the basements. And more secret passages and tunnels to other places than you can shake a stick at.
You'd also think they would have a couple of safe houses in the nearest city somewhere, most probably close to places they have an interest in.
Actually, we get to essentially build our city/kingdom once the first book ends (if we live that long). There's a large tree that used to house some mites in the caverns below it. If I can convince the other PCs to build around that tree, I could use the underground caverns as our secret base of operations.
However, that means that the other PCs would have to know about it. Not a problem, as I've been pretty open with them and it might help me. I would eventually need to find another location, though.
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The advantage of sewers is that you can have exits spread all over town, which makes it easier to travel around unseen.
Plus, sewers are the obvious hiding place for all other secretive cults and so forth, so it's worth getting there first and lying in wait for them rather than having to find them later.
You could of course run the firm constructing sewers for your new kingdom. Any construction company gives you a good front to be building things, and who knows how many secret rooms you actually put in?
Hire some kobolds since they are natural diggers, have them dig a tunnel under the city to hide their work. Once they have completed the task of digging your underground hideout collapse the tunnel. The kobolds will have only one way out, the surface. When they start filing out into the city raise the alarm that you are being invaded by a kobold army.
The guards naturally kill all the kobolds and you have a brand new hideout and no witnesses, all without getting your hands dirty. The townspeople might even think you are a hero for helping stop the "invasion".
Hire some kobolds since they are natural diggers, have them dig a tunnel under the city to hide their work. Once they have completed the task of digging your underground hideout collapse the tunnel. The kobolds will have only one way out, the surface. When they start filing out into the city raise the alarm that you are being invaded by a kobold army.
The guards naturally kill all the kobolds and you have a brand new hideout and no witnesses, all without getting your hands dirty. The townspeople might even think you are a hero for helping stop the "invasion".
This strikes me as more evil than neutral.
It may be worth mentioning that I've managed to recruit a few ex-bandits to my cause.
Bump
So you've got the mite lair; that's a good start. What kind of startup capital are you thinking and what kind of utility magic do you have access to?
So you've got the mite lair; that's a good start. What kind of startup capital are you thinking and what kind of utility magic do you have access to?
I have a decent amount of money for my level. For some reason, the party trusted me (the known spy) as the treasurer. Not that I'm stealing, but I've managed to collect and hide a lot of gold.
As far as utility magic, I'm a Vivisectionist Alchemist and I've found a spellbook, so I have some, but it's not arcane. But I have spellcraft, use magic device, and craft traps at decent skill checks.
And thanks, Shaun. I'll look into that.
Might as well dot this for future reference.
In a Birthright game I ran one of the players wanted a spy network so he used his resources to build a Cultural Arts Center at his villa outside of the capital city. He started off with Dance and focused on getting all the different cultural dances and created a school/showcase for them. The Cultural Arts Center became the hub for his spy network.
He was also a noble (this being Birthright) so he had a hand in ruling the local area. His cultural arts center became an attraction which lead to it being involved in diplomacy as rulers from other areas would want to check the place out while visiting. This gave him a certain level of power in Diplomatic areas as it was usually on his turf. It also gave an opportunity for his dancers to get placed in other rulers courts after they witnessed the dances or at the least travel to distant courts to provide entertainment for their events.
He then formed up dance troupes to travel around the lands and gather more dances. He also had unaffiliated merchant groups travel to cities and permanently set up shot usually as traders or barristers. The traveling dance troupes could make contact with the barristers to pick up intelligence gathered and take it back to home base (the cultural arts center) all without raising much suspicion.
Since you are an alchemist maybe a school with a similar theme, like a university so that you can have branches in multiple cities and "students" traveling between them.
Well this is the first part of Kingmaker right? I say yes to setting up an Alchemy school. But not just hardcore alchemy like a mad scientist. as people leave the trading post and head into the wilds they'll need things like Healy Myrrh, tindertwigs and the occasional sleep poison; for hunting right?
Anyway, Oleg's trading post has a good idea you could exploit. Set up an area where travelers and traders want to come to and shop. They pass along info you can choose to pursue, exploit or ignore. If someone important shows up you can pump them for additional info and if wanderers/adventurers show up with the right philisophical bent you can "apprentice them" and thus begin building your spy network.
In a Birthright game I ran one of the players wanted a spy network so he used his resources to build a Cultural Arts Center at his villa outside of the capital city. He started off with Dance and focused on getting all the different cultural dances and created a school/showcase for them. The Cultural Arts Center became the hub for his spy network.
He was also a noble (this being Birthright) so he had a hand in ruling the local area. His cultural arts center became an attraction which lead to it being involved in diplomacy as rulers from other areas would want to check the place out while visiting. This gave him a certain level of power in Diplomatic areas as it was usually on his turf. It also gave an opportunity for his dancers to get placed in other rulers courts after they witnessed the dances or at the least travel to distant courts to provide entertainment for their events.
He then formed up dance troupes to travel around the lands and gather more dances. He also had unaffiliated merchant groups travel to cities and permanently set up shot usually as traders or barristers. The traveling dance troupes could make contact with the barristers to pick up intelligence gathered and take it back to home base (the cultural arts center) all without raising much suspicion.
Since you are an alchemist maybe a school with a similar theme, like a university so that you can have branches in multiple cities and "students" traveling between them.
Great idea!
Well this is the first part of Kingmaker right? I say yes to setting up an Alchemy school. But not just hardcore alchemy like a mad scientist. as people leave the trading post and head into the wilds they'll need things like Healy Myrrh, tindertwigs and the occasional sleep poison; for hunting right?
Anyway, Oleg's trading post has a good idea you could exploit. Set up an area where travelers and traders want to come to and shop. They pass along info you can choose to pursue, exploit or ignore. If someone important shows up you can pump them for additional info and if wanderers/adventurers show up with the right philisophical bent you can "apprentice them" and thus begin building your spy network.
I agree - an Alchemy school is a good idea.
And Oleg's is already functioning like a source of information for me. I managed to coerce Oleg and his wife to help me out by gathering information from travelers and reporting it to me. It hasn't been very helpful (yet).
You might also consider building up a theater ( nevermind it possibly earning some money) which puts you into contact with a lot of travellers ( actors, musicians etc) and provides legitimate coming and going, a reasonable way of procuring alchemical substances- for teh stage fireworks - and disguise materials, and serves as a central social draw to peek in on.
If possible, combine with a gambling den and now you have the feet on both doors with those folks doing lying and appearing harmless best : actors and gamblers (all frequent travellers )
There's nothing illegal about alchemy in the wild is there? So why obscure the alchemy? Make it front and center and let the product sell itself.
I think the idea is to keep hidden the fact that as your customers are browsing the acids you're deliberately leading them into revealing who wants that vial of hemlock they keep nonchalantly eyeballing...