The Bladesinger, an iconic class, the epitome of Elven Figher/Mages, was a class that never reached its full potential in the 3.X version of D&D, IMHO of coarse. So I have attempted a proper way to Pathfinderize this gem. Feedback and constructive critism are welcome.
The Bladesinger d10 HD
Requirements:
Race: Any Elf or Half-Elf
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Acrobatics 3 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 2 ranks, Perform (Dance) 4 ranks, Perform (Sing) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks
Feats: Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Any light or one-handed melee weapon)
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells
Special: Arcane Bond (Any light or one-handed melee weapon)
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells
1 +1 +0 +1 +1 Bladesong 1/day, Chosen Weapon, Spellsong -
2 +2 +1 +1 +1 Song of Celerity (3rd) +1
3 +3 +1 +2 +2 Bladesong 2/day +1
4 +4 +1 +2 +2 Bonus Feat +1
5 +5 +2 +3 +3 Bladesong 3/day +1
6 +6 +2 +3 +3 Song of Celerity (6th) -
7 +7 +2 +4 +4 Bladesong 4/day +1
8 +8 +3 +4 +4 Bonus Feat +1
9 +9 +3 +5 +5 Bladesong 5/day +1
10 +10 +3 +5 +5 Song of Celerity (9th), Bladesong Mastery +1
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Knowledge (all), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Spellcraft
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 2+Int modifier
Spells per day: At every level except 1st and 6th the bladesinger gains additional spellcasting level, spells per day, and spells known(if he is a spontaneous caster) as if he had also gained a level in one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding levels in bladesinger. He does not gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained upon reaching a new level.
Chosen Weapon: A Bladesinger chooses to use one weapon type to the exclusion of all others, this must be a light or one-handed melee weapon(swords are most common, but any qualifying weapon is allowed) in which he has the Weapon Focus feat and Arcane Bond class feature. The character adds his levels in Bladesinger to any Fighter levels he has to determine feats he is eligible to select, but this only applies to weapon specific Fighter feats (such as Weapon Specilization), not any other Fighter specific feats that are not tied to a specific weapon (such as Spellbreaker), these may only be selected in his chosen weapon type. Once selected this cannot be changed, and from this point forward whenever he uses a weapon type other than that of his chosen weapon, he receives a -2 to attack rolls (spells are not affected).
Bladesong: Starting at 1st level the Bladesinger can initiate the graceful and deadly dance known as the bladesong. He gains the following benefits while bladesinging, a +1 to attack, damage, and CMB with any melee attack using his chosen weapon, a plus +1 bonus to concentration checks made to cast defensively, and his Intelligence modifier as a bonus to AC and CMD. He may use this ability one per day starting at 1st level and an additional time per day at every odd level after 1st, in addition at each odd level he gains an additional +1 to his attack, damage, CMB, and concentration checks made to cast defensively (to a maximum of +5 at 9th level). To initiate the bladesong, a move action, the bladesinger must have his chosen weapon in one hand and and nothing in the other and be wearing light or no armor. The bladesong last for a number of rounds equal to the bladesingers ranks in perform (dance), at the end of the bladesong he is fatigued for twice the number of rounds he spent bladesinging.
Spellsong: Due to his intensive training with both sword and magic, the bladesinger can wear light armor with no chance of arcane spell failure, he may also take 10 on all concentration checks to cast defensively.
Song of Celerity: At 2nd level, while in his bladesong and making an attack or full attack action, a bladesinger may cast one spell of up to 3rd level as a swift action without increasing its effective level. At 6th level he may use this ability to cast up to 6th level spells, and at 10 level he may cast up to 9th level spells. He can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and one additional time every even level he gains after 2nd, to a maximum of 5 times per day at 10th level.
Bonus Feat: At 4th level, and again at 8th, a bladesinger gains a bonus feat that must be chosen from the list of Combat Feats.
Bladesong Mastery: At 10th level the Bladesinger becomes a master of his deadly artform. He can now initiate his bladesong as a swift action and is no longer fatigued after his bladesong expires. Furthermore, while bladesinging he may choose to make one additional attack each round at his highest base attack bonus when using the full attack action, this attack and all others until the beginning of his next turn come at a -2 to attack.
Now as you may notice, this is a difficult prestige class to acquire, as no matter how you slice it, 10th level is the earliest anyone can enter the class. This was done intentionally because bladesingers are elite, and the stiff requirements show both the difficulty in training and dedication required to acheive the status of Bladesinger.
Any chance you can build this as a base class?
I have been pushing for that for a long time b/c you can enter and play the class you want to play at first level rather than all the hoops, etc to get there.
PF seems to be going that route, with the playtest and I want to see more of it.
So is it prestige classes in general that you do not like? Beacuse honestly they are one of the things that I've always enjoyed most, though Pathfinder sure has done a good job of not making me want to take a prestige class.
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This...seems really powerful. I like the concept and execution, but I think they're getting a LOT. On top of that, it seems like the path to get into this class is really narrow, with earliest entry requiring you to spend all (or nearly all) of your feats on the prerequisites.
Limiting it to Wizards and Arcane Bloodline Sorcerers is also kind of a downer, especially to those who want to take Bard levels to get in. Given the theme of the class, it would make sense to let Bards in above all else, too.
What I see is an Eldritch Knight with harder qualifications. He gives up a single caster level and trades the rest of his abilities for others that are both more plentiful and better.
Again, I REALLY like the flavor here, but it just seems much too powerful.
Hey, it's just like the 2e Bladesinger!
Limited to elves, and way more powerful then any other choices because "omg elves!"
:|
This...seems really powerful. I like the concept and execution, but I think they're getting a LOT. On top of that, it seems like the path to get into this class is really narrow, with earliest entry requiring you to spend all (or nearly all) of your feats on the prerequisites.
Limiting it to Wizards and Arcane Bloodline Sorcerers is also kind of a downer, especially to those who want to take Bard levels to get in. Given the theme of the class, it would make sense to let Bards in above all else, too.
What I see is an Eldritch Knight with harder qualifications. He gives up a single caster level and trades the rest of his abilities for others that are both more plentiful and better.
Again, I REALLY like the flavor here, but it just seems much too powerful.
Thanks for the constructive critism w0nk. To be honest, I didnt even look at the Eldritch Knight when I made this prestige class, but rather the Arcane Archer. The Bladesong improvements with levels are akin to the Enhance Arrows abilities, while the AA gains a few per day abilites as it levels akin to Song of Celerity (but yes I am aware this is a powerful ability).
Now the reason it gets an additional spellcaster level over the AA is because of the difficult requirements. Lets do compare the Bladesinger to the EK for a second, the EK requires 1 level of Fighter to meet its prereqs, making it easy to acquire 9th level spells. Whereas the Bladesinger will most likely have around 3 levels of Fighter, depending on the build, and with even the most spellcasting intensive build will only get 8th level spells.
As for the prereqs, two options for the Arcane Bond prereq and Bards, one is to do away with it all together, the other would be to require Arcane Bond(weapon) or Bardic Performance, suggestions? As for the feats, most of those requirements are central to the concept of the class, but I guess the Arcane Strike feat requirement could go away.
Thank you for examining my work and any further feeback is very welcome.
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Now the reason it gets an additional spellcaster level over the AA is because of the difficult requirements. Lets do compare the Bladesinger to the EK for a second, the EK requires 1 level of Fighter to meet its prereqs, making it easy to acquire 9th level spells. Whereas the Bladesinger will most likely have around 3 levels of Fighter, depending on the build, and with even the most spellcasting intensive build will only get 8th level spells.
As for the prereqs, two options for the Arcane Bond prereq and Bards, one is to do away with it all together, the other would be to require Arcane Bond(weapon) or Bardic Performance, suggestions? As for the feats, most of those requirements are central to the concept of the class, but I guess the Arcane Strike feat requirement could go away.
The prerequisites do not balance the additional spell level.
The only things this class "requires" that any gish wouldn't already want to take anyway is Combat Expertise and 6 ranks in preform skills. Extra skill points are easy for a wizard to get (one of the primary base classes this assumes), so really, all this class requires is one feat. Not enough. Not even close.
Also, using the Arcane Archer as a baseline is a very bad idea, for one simple reason: archers get completely boned when they are in melee. That's a big part of why they get so much without being broken - they can still be shut down by an ogre with 10ft reach.
Taking the Arcane Archer, turning them into a melee class, and increasing their power level? this is a big no.
Another point: Why is Bladesong based on uses per day? In pathfinder, the only classes with uses per day are clerics and druids, and that's because those abilities aren't necessarily used in combat (they can be, of course, but using them out of combat is generally considered more "optimal"). Look at Barbarians, Bards, etc - any class that used to have a "combat mechanic" that was measured in uses per day operates round-by-round now.
I have a suggestion. Well, more of a challenge, really. I want all of you Bladedancer fans to look at the Bard base class. Assume an elf as the race. Take Dancing as the first Versatile Performance. If you were to replace the various "bardic music" abilities with the following (quoted below), and change nothing else, would it work as a Bladedancer?
Bladesong: While using Bladesong, the Bard gains a morale bonus equal to his intelligence modifier to attack rolls, damage rolls, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and AC. He also gains this bonus to Combat Maneuver Defense versus sunder and disarm.
This ability may only be used while wielding a single light weapon, a single rapier, or a single longsword.
This ability can be activated as a move action. At seventh level, this ability can be activated as a swift action.
EDIT: Like spells, this ability can only be used while wearing light or no armor.
New Requirements:
Race: Any Elf or Half-Elf
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Acrobatics 3 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 2 ranks, Perform (Dance) 4 ranks, Perform (Sing) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks
Feats: Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Any light or one-handed melee weapon)
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells
Class Changes:
New spells levels at every level besides 1st, 5th, and 9th
I have a suggestion. Well, more of a challenge, really. I want all of you Bladedancer fans to look at the Bard base class. Assume an elf as the race. Take Dancing as the first Versatile Performance. If you were to replace the various "bardic music" abilities with the following (quoted below), and change nothing else, would it work as a Bladedancer?
Quote:
Bladesong: While using Bladesong, the Bard gains a morale bonus equal to his intelligence modifier to attack rolls, damage rolls, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and AC. He also gains this bonus to Combat Maneuver Defense versus sunder and disarm.This ability may only be used while wielding a single light weapon, a single rapier, or a single longsword.
This ability can be activated as a move action. At seventh level, this ability can be activated as a swift action.
EDIT: Like spells, this ability can only be used while wearing light or no armor.
The only problem with this is, I just dont see the Bladesinger as a Bard, "dancing" is only just fluff to describe the intricate manuvers he uses while Bladesinging. Now if a Bard wants to take the class, I have no problem, but the general concept behind it is a Fighter/Wizard.
I have altered the class above somewhat above, making the prereqs more open, Bards can now enter the class with the removal of Arcane Bond, and making it a 7/10 caster, hopefully this should alleviate some of the issues.
As for the uses per day vs rounds per day, I guess it could be altered to suit that mechanic. There is no precedent yet for prestige classes with that mechanic, I wonder should it start at first level with 4+Dex, with 2 rounds added per level, or should it start higher, say 10 or 12, since you will only have 10 levels of upgrades instead of 20.
Here is the updated version of the class, taking into consideration some of the issues that have been brought up, please review it and critique honestly.
The Bladesinger d10 HD
Requirements:
Race: Any Elf or Half-Elf
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Acrobatics 4 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 2 ranks, Perform (Dance) 2 ranks, Perform (Sing) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks
Feats: Arcane Strike, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Any light or one-handed melee weapon)
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells
1 +1 +0 +1 +1 Bladesong, Chosen Weapon, Lesser Spellsong -
2 +2 +1 +1 +1 Song of Celerity (3rd) +1
3 +3 +1 +2 +2 +1
4 +4 +1 +2 +2 Bonus Feat +1
5 +5 +2 +3 +3 Greater Spellsong -
6 +6 +2 +3 +3 Song of Celerity (6th) +1
7 +7 +2 +4 +4 +1
8 +8 +3 +4 +4 Bonus Feat +1
9 +9 +3 +5 +5 -
10 +10 +3 +5 +5 Song of Celerity (9th), Bladesong Mastery +1
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Knowledge (all), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Spellcraft
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 2+Int modifier
Spells per day: At every level except 1st, 5th, and 9th the bladesinger gains additional spellcasting level, spells per day, and spells known(if he is a spontaneous caster) as if he had also gained a level in one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding levels in bladesinger. He does not gain any other benefits a character of that class would have gained upon reaching a new level.
Chosen Weapon: A Bladesinger chooses to use one weapon type to the exclusion of all others, this must be a light or one-handed melee weapon (swords are most common, but any qualifying weapon is allowed) in which he has the Weapon Focus feat. The character adds his levels in Bladesinger to any Fighter levels he has to determine feats he is eligible to select, but this only applies to weapon specific Fighter feats (such as Weapon Specilization), not any other Fighter specific feats that are not tied to a specific weapon (such as Spellbreaker), these may only be selected in his chosen weapon type. Once selected this cannot be changed, and from this point forward whenever he uses a weapon type other than that of his chosen weapon, he receives a -2 to attack rolls (spells are not affected).
Bladesong: Starting at 1st level the Bladesinger can initiate the graceful and deadly dance known as the bladesong. He gains the following benefits while bladesinging, a +1 to attack, damage, and CMB with any melee attack using his chosen weapon, a plus +1 bonus to concentration checks made to cast defensively, and his Intelligence modifier as a bonus to AC and CMD. At each odd level he gains an additional +1 to his attack, damage, CMB, and concentration checks made to cast defensively (to a maximum of +5 at 9th level). To initiate the bladesong, a move action, the bladesinger must have his chosen weapon in one hand and and nothing in the other and be wearing light or no armor. Starting at 1st level the bladesong can be used for a number of rounds per day equal to 10 + Dexterity modifier, each level after 1st he can use the bladesong for an additional 2 rounds per day. At the end of the bladesong he is fatigued for twice the number of rounds he spent bladesinging.
Lesser Spellsong: Due to his intensive training with both sword and magic, the bladesinger can wear light armor with no chance of arcane spell failure while in his bladesong.
Song of Celerity: At 2nd level, while in his bladesong and making an attack or full attack action, a bladesinger may cast one spell of up to 3rd level as a swift action without increasing its effective level. At 6th level he may use this ability to cast up to 6th level spells, and at 10th level he may cast up to 9th level spells. He can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and one additional time every even level he gains after 2nd, to a maximum of 5 times per day at 10th level.
Bonus Feat: At 4th level, and again at 8th, a bladesinger gains a bonus feat that must be chosen from the list of Combat Feats.
Greater Spellsong: At 5th level the bladesingers ability to cast in light armor improves, he may do so at any time, not just while in bladesong.
Bladesong Mastery: At 10th level the Bladesinger becomes a master of his deadly artform. He can now initiate his bladesong as a swift action and is no longer fatigued after his bladesong expires. Furthermore, while bladesinging he may choose to make one additional attack each round at his highest base attack bonus when using the full attack action, this attack and all others until the beginning of his next turn come at a -2 to attack.
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Hey! It's like an eldritch knight...except racist. ANY class that has a race requirement PrC or otherwise is just plain dumb. Say a dwarf wants to be an arcane archer...he takes all the prequisites, he's an archery ranger, so he knows how to use his bow, yet oooh! too bad, your a dwarf...the dwarf prestige classes are that way ==>
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so, you are saying that it works, but you don't like it? fair enough.
The "walking into dungeons and singing at monsters" stuff is gone. They've got a decent BAB, and bladesong is a significant boost. They are using both Intelligence (for defense) and Charisma (for spells), which fits the idea of a bladesinger rather well.
The spell selection is debateable, sure, but that's a general problem with Melee Bards and will be fixed in the Advance Players Guide. The spells are actually pretty good, IMHO, and though some are missing (Greater Magic Weapon), that can be covered by Arcane Strike (note that my Bladesong doesn't require any action to sustain).
So, given that a simple substitution of a single (significant) class ability does all of this, why doesn't the Bard-Bladesinger work?
***
On your modifications:
EDIT:sneaked in an update in on me!
prerequisites: I see this, and I don't want it. Fighter 2 / Wizard 8 or Fighter 3 / Wizard 6 are the ONLY two viable combinations (using the default classes), given that there are no epic levels at the moment. Eldrich Knight requires me to play a slightly underpowered wizard for 6 levels; this requires an nonfunctional character for 9 or 10.
This is a Meta-issue. As has been repeatedly pointed out, this is a big problem with Gish prestige classes. 90% of campaigns don't go more than 7 or 8 levels, so in order to really be able to play this you'd have to start at 12th level. Some campaigns do that, yes, but most start out low, at first or third or fifth. No character in such a campaign can reasonably expect to make it into this class.
Yes, I understand that they are supposed to be "elite". But here's the thing: the original Bladesingers, back in the second edition elf book? They started out that way. It was a kit. A first level character could be a Bladesinger.
Let's see... 6th level is sort of the default target for prestige classes, so that'd be, say, Fighter 2 Wizard 4, so why not 2nd level spells and a BAB of +4 instead?
Chosen Weapon: meh. It's okay I guess. Yes, I know that traditionally they used longswords or rapiers. I'm not knocking that. It just.. I read it, and I understand, but it feels like a wall of text with little point.
Bladesong: *delete delete* EDIT: I like it.
Spellsong: horribly, terribly broken.
Player:"All the time? It works all the time!. I will take my levels in Eldrich Knight and do a 1-dip into your class for your horribly broken ability."
Tie the "no arcane spell failure" to "while in bladesong" or something. Not all the time.
Remove the "take 10" on concentration checks - that's got to go. You already require Combat Casting, and Bladesong boosts concentration; it's ok to fail on a two. Pathfinder made melee spellcasting much harder, even at high levels, and it should stay that way.
Son of Celerity: It's... this is a tough call. One the one hand, Free Quickened Spells. On the other, it's only 5 times per day, even at 10th (20th) level. And the caster is 6-7 levels below normal, so they can't even cast 8th or 9th level spells until epic levels (which don't currently exist). But, again, Free Quickened Spells.
Personally I'd keep the cap at 3rd or lower, or make it go 1st - 2nd - 3rd. Or maybe start at 1st and go up by one each additional use per day. But I think it's fine as is.
Bonus Feat: Bonus Feat, Bonus Feat, om nom nom.
Sorry. I can't think of anything to say. It's fine.
Bladesong Mastery: Good capstone. Nice at 20th level, also nice at 15th. This ability is a little boring. Also, is there any limit to the extra attacks, or does he just get to attack one more time every time because he is "Elf Blademaster FTW"?
Suggestion: maybe make the extra attack have some sort of cost, like "he can expend an additional round of bladesong to make an extra attack at his highest base attack. this does not stack with extra attacks from other sources, such as haste". Quick Burn or Long Haul choice. More dynamic.
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Hey, it's just like the 2e Bladesinger!
Limited to elves, and way more powerful then any other choices because "omg elves!"
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LOL
QFT +1!!!
I hated that Complete Elves book of 2e. Powergamers wet dream. Every game I ran have 50-75% elves, and there was always a bladesinger and someone wanting to play a drow.
Robert
(Tieflings are the new drow by the way).
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To be fair to the author (and not just use the thread to bash the Elves book), I think that you've done a good job, but it was definitely too powerful as written originally.
I like the suggestions BobChuck made. His concerns about when the class becomes available - however, it's powerful enough of a PrC that it may be balanced to have to wait that long to get into it.
Robert
I have made additional editing to the class, I see your point BobChuck, making it available earlier is the right call. I also separated the spellsong ability, you can now wear light armor all the time, but only after 5th level, while at 1st level you can only do so while in bladesong.
As to the extra attack with Bladesong Mastery, it is essitially the Rapid Shot feat for melee attacks, but as a capstone ability not available before 17th level. The limitation is that it may only be accomplished during the bladesong.
Hey! It's like an eldritch knight...except racist. ANY class that has a race requirement PrC or otherwise is just plain dumb. Say a dwarf wants to be an arcane archer...he takes all the prequisites, he's an archery ranger, so he knows how to use his bow, yet oooh! too bad, your a dwarf...the dwarf prestige classes are that way ==>
James Jacobs has stated that the Elf req for Arcane Archer is a typo. Pathfinder will not have PrC or base classes which is only open to a single race.
You can have your Dwarven Arcane Archer!|
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Hey! It's like an eldritch knight...except racist. ANY class that has a race requirement PrC or otherwise is just plain dumb. Say a dwarf wants to be an arcane archer...he takes all the prequisites, he's an archery ranger, so he knows how to use his bow, yet oooh! too bad, your a dwarf...the dwarf prestige classes are that way ==>I think whether you like race-based PrC depend a lot on what you think PrC are for.
Originally, they were suppossed to represent special groups within the setting (such as Harpers in Forgotten Realms), not power ups for characters to take over the base classes.
As they were originally conceived, I think race-based PrC make sense. It would be entirely possible for the elven king's honor guard to be all elves (though, as a GM, I -might- make an exception for a non-Elf to take the PrC if they proved themselves to the elven king via some quest).
I agree with the aesthetics of such PrCs. They do add campaign based flavor for a particular world, as well.
For a generic RPG in a base world, it makes just as much sense not to "limit" anything that way.
But in a homebrew world game, or a campaign world like Forgotten Realms, or Golarion, it makes just as much sense to have some PrCs with similar limitations.
It's in my opinion, up to the individual GM how he/she wishes to write the world and the story and fit the pieces in. Some may not even exist at all.
Robert
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Hey! It's like an eldritch knight...except racist. ANY class that has a race requirement PrC or otherwise is just plain dumb. Say a dwarf wants to be an arcane archer...he takes all the prequisites, he's an archery ranger, so he knows how to use his bow, yet oooh! too bad, your a dwarf...the dwarf prestige classes are that way ==>James Jacobs has stated that the Elf req for Arcane Archer is a typo. Pathfinder will not have PrC or base classes which is only open to a single race.
You can have your Dwarven Arcane Archer!
SWEET! Now to work out the mechanics of dwarf + longbow...
Thank you for that succinct and inappropriate reply...
You're quite welcome.
I did take the time to address that and respond appropriately to your thread, however.
Good luck on your PrC.
Robert
Actually I only noticed your 2nd post just a moment ago and I retract my previous comment, I thank you for your sincere comments.
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lets not get hasty and bash 2.0....
Had a party composed entirerly of speciality preists of different gods.
Could never explain why this group was traveling together apparently working to convert them to a different view of the world.It was wierd now that I think about it, and no we were not on anything!
I was only bashing the Complete Elves book - not 2e as a whole - though honestly I liked very little about 2e at all.
I only played because 1st was dead and that was what everyone else was playing.
3rd edition saved me from D&D hell.
Robert
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Actually I only noticed your 2nd post just a moment ago and I retract my previous comment, I thank you for your sincere comments.
No worries, mate. Bygones.
The dude just made me laugh out loud - because I remember back in the mid 90s just loathing that book and what it facilitated amongst too many players. So it was tongue in cheek fun at realizing others were just as perturbed by it!
I am sincere, however, in telling you good luck to your PrC and getting it worked out.
I made quite a few PrCs over the past decade of 3rd ed playing. However, for the past 3 years, I have reverted ONLY to playing CORE released classes/races/PrCs. It has helped maintain a much more playable and balanced game - especially at the higher levels in campaigns like Shackled City, which I finished last Feb, and Age of Worms that I started running the week after finishing Shackled (which is now in chapter 9 and PCs are 15th level).
Robert
Question, I am fairly new to these boards and was wanting to edit my original post with the updated class but am unable to, however I can edit my more recent posts. Do these forums have a time limit on editing?
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Hey! It's like an eldritch knight...except racist. ANY class that has a race requirement PrC or otherwise is just plain dumb. Say a dwarf wants to be an arcane archer...he takes all the prequisites, he's an archery ranger, so he knows how to use his bow, yet oooh! too bad, your a dwarf...the dwarf prestige classes are that way ==>I think whether you like race-based PrC depend a lot on what you think PrC are for.
Originally, they were suppossed to represent special groups within the setting (such as Harpers in Forgotten Realms), not power ups for characters to take over the base classes.
As they were originally conceived, I think race-based PrC make sense. It would be entirely possible for the elven king's honor guard to be all elves (though, as a GM, I -might- make an exception for a non-Elf to take the PrC if they proved themselves to the elven king via some quest).
I guess my sticking point is that at the beginning of the book, the question "what can a character do?" is posed. The answer is they can try to do anything. If there is a racial limit on a class, then they really can't try to do anything...they're limited from that class unless they choose a specific race (that they might not want to play).
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I guess my sticking point is that at the beginning of the book, the question "what can a character do?" is posed. The answer is they can try to do anything. If there is a racial limit on a class, then they really can't try to do anything...they're limited from that class unless they choose a specific race (that they might not want to play).
I completely agree with you... as far as the core rules are concerned.
A special, home-brew, niche group that has a long history (20 years) of only being within a specific race? I do not see the problem.
Now, if people start wanting rules for Moonblades, I am going to be upset.
I realized that with the new prereqs a Wizard with 8 levels and the right feats could qualify for this, not something I want happeneing, so I think I will add one more requirement
Special: Must be profiecient with at least 5 martial weapons and light armor.
This still lets a Bard enter without multiclassing but forces almost everyone else to take a level of something other than wizard or sorcerer. Though I think it feels a little clunky, anyone have other suggestions?
I have to agree with dwarf when comes to race restricted classes i usually toss that out in my games. Here is why, what is a class really but a style or aspect? for example what is a dwarven defender? He's a dwarf that has spent his time studying dwarven defensive maneuvers and combat styles. So whats to stop a human from studying that style? is same basic idea behind an arcane archer or in this case a blade singer, yes style was developed by elves, BUT in end all it is a style... so yea racial limiters really need to go way of the do-do. Are always exceptions though, if that prc specifically enhances a racial trait i can see that limiting it to that race but a style of combat like the blade singer or dwarven defender? eh not so much.
I guess my sticking point is that at the beginning of the book, the question "what can a character do?" is posed. The answer is they can try to do anything. If there is a racial limit on a class, then they really can't try to do anything...they're limited from that class unless they choose a specific race (that they might not want to play).I completely agree with you... as far as the core rules are concerned.
A special, home-brew, niche group that has a long history (20 years) of only being within a specific race? I do not see the problem.
Now, if people start wanting rules for Moonblades, I am going to be upset.
Haha, I had a buddy back in 2E who played a Bladesinger with a Moonblade. His Moonblade had a specific goal attached to it, the reclamation of Myth Drannor. The DM told him later that when the time came for the epic battle (he would have raised an army with the purpose taking the city back), he would have to face and defeat a Balor in one on one combat with the battle going on around him. If victorious he would then take his sword and stick it in the ground reactivating the mythal, immdiately banishing all of the fiends and greatly weakening the rest of the evil occupants inside the city. He never got to play through that final battle as our group that character was apart of kinda broke apart when we were around 12th level. A few years later Richard Baker wrote the Last Mythal trilogy...my friend has despised Richard Baker ever since for stealing his characters story and taking that away from him, lol.
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I have to agree with dwarf when comes to race restricted classes i usually toss that out in my games. Here is why, what is a class really but a style or aspect? for example what is a dwarven defender? He's a dwarf that has spent his time studying dwarven defensive maneuvers and combat styles. So whats to stop a human from studying that style? is same basic idea behind an arcane archer or in this case a blade singer, yes style was developed by elves, BUT in end all it is a style... so yea racial limiters really need to go way of the do-do. Are always exceptions though, if that prc specifically enhances a racial trait i can see that limiting it to that race but a style of combat like the blade singer or dwarven defender? eh not so much.
I agree with Lokai.
On the other side, if I were running a homebrew game with my own world or borrowing another, what I would do (as a GM) if I wanted to add such idiosyncratic nuances of different races would be to make sure that there were two or three PrCs specifically tied to each of the races steroetyped traits - but the same number of them for each race. Elf - Blade Singer and Arcane Archer; Dwarf Defender and Battlerager, Halfling Outrider, and something else, catburgler maybe? Gnome tinkerer, and Elemental Summoner (this draws from inspiration of the Svirfneblins of 2e popularized by Salvatore), and two others for half orcs - maybe a shamanistic one and a brute rampager or something.
All would need to be balanced and equal to each other, and all needs to play off of the natural tendencies of the traits and features of those races.
Then there's the ability to offer equally, and offer more fluff to the campaign world by introducing iconic roles within the world.
Robert
Overpowered....As are 95% of the Homebrew Generated Prestige Classes I see. Don't get me wrong your build is very nice, but it far exceeds any other spell-casting class in the book with minimal sacrifice.Built in concentration and to-hit bonuses with minimal loss of spellcasting.
He should be advancing in spells every other level to restore some balance.
I have decided to lower the spell levels you are able to cast with Song of Celerity. At 2nd level you can cast up to 2nd level spells, at 6th level up to 4th level spells and at 10th level up to 6th level spells. Hopefully this along with the other changes I have made will address the "overpowered" arguments.