So, my very first Pathfinder game is scheduled to begin very soon, and I'd like to get my character hammered out. The setting is devoid of almost all magic, which I was not aware of before signing on as a Bard! I've spoken with the GM, and magic users will gain both a free archetype and feat at first level, so I shouldn't be too hindered. The concept for this character is an aristocratic noble who relies mostly on his whip to disarm and trip opponents while his allies finish them off. The campaign will be starting at level 1, 25 point buy, with Human characters.
I figured I would go for the following:
Str: 10, Dex: 18 (Human +2), Con: 10, Int: 13, Wis: 12, Cha: 16
Level 1: Bard (Daredevil Archetype; Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers (Human), ????? (Bonus GM Feat)
Bonus Archetype: ????? (I was thinking Weapon Master)
I know this will be a somewhat lax campaign in terms of Combat, so having a Bard is mostly to access skills that I know will come up a lot. I'll probably dip Fighter for a few levels for some Bonus feats and the higher BAB. Can anyone offer more guidance than this? Thanks in advanced!
You need to clarify what denotes a low magic campaign in the DM's eyes. Will you be able to use bardic music to inspire your allies? If not, I would choose another class. I also think 16 CHA may be excessive if there is no spellcasting.
Without spellcasting, you'd better play a fighter - losing the bard spells is too much of a nerf for a feat and a "free archetype" (?) to compensate. Also, you don't need Agile Maneuvers.
sieylianna wrote: You need to clarify what denotes a low magic campaign in the DM's eyes. Will you be able to use bardic music to inspire your allies? If not, I would choose another class. I also think 16 CHA may be excessive if there is no spellcasting. Classes only have access to Cantrips until possibly later in the game.
Maxximilius wrote: Without spellcasting, you'd better play a fighter - losing the bard spells is too much of a nerf for a feat and a "free archetype" (?) to compensate. Also, you don't need Agile Maneuvers. I'm probably just dipping into Bard at level one for the proficiency and the Class Skills. Would Agile Maneuvers not benefit Disarms and Trips?
There are a number of classes which would give you better class skills than fighter and which are not nerfed by losing spellcasting. I'd be inclined to go straight rogue, monk or ninja instead of taking a one level dip into bard.
Do you know anything about the other characters in the party?
If you're focusing on skills and it's a low magic, low combat campaign, Detective might be an archetype worth looking at.
I do agree that Bard probably isn't the best choice, but if you want to do it, do it!
sieylianna wrote: There are a number of classes which would give you better class skills than fighter and which are not nerfed by losing spellcasting. I'd be inclined to go straight rogue, monk or ninja instead of taking a one level dip into bard.
Do you know anything about the other characters in the party?
I'm the first character to get off the ground thus far, but I've been told to expect a Rogue, Fighter and possibly some sort of Cleric.
I'm thinking Rogue might work out better, though I feel like this build is going to be very Feat hungry.
LCFlores91 wrote: Maxximilius wrote: Without spellcasting, you'd better play a fighter - losing the bard spells is too much of a nerf for a feat and a "free archetype" (?) to compensate. Also, you don't need Agile Maneuvers. I'm probably just dipping into Bard at level one for the proficiency and the Class Skills. Would Agile Maneuvers not benefit Disarms and Trips?
With the Heirloom Weapon trait and with a full fighter level (or one level in bard for the proficiency, suggesting either vanilla bard, Archeologist or Dervish Dancer, which in either case make you not lost BAB since Inspire Courage counterbalances it), you may begin with :
8/18/14/13/12/12
You may want to take a look at the Tactician fighter if you wish skill points, class skills and to help allies.
There is also this archetype that could really interest you if your DM allows for external content.
Let's say one level of bard, and the rest in vanilla fighter.
So, at second level :
Traits : Heirloom Weapon (Whip ; +2 to one maneuver (Trip)), ???
H. Weapon Finesse
1. Combat Expertise
2(F). Improved Trip
BAB : +1
Melee : +5 (add +1 with inspire courage)
CMB : +1 (+10 when using trip with the Whip ; +8 for disarm with the Whip) (+1 with inspire courage)
Att : Masterwork Scorpion Whip ; +6, 1d4-1 20x2
You're beginning with a +11 average to trip, and +9 to disarm.
(Agile maneuvers is used to calculate the CMB for maneuvers not using a weapon and not made as an attack but as a standard action. Trip and disarm may replace attacks, so you have BAB + Dex + Weapon Bonuses + Feats + Any other potential bonus... here, the Heirloom Weapon for Tripping, attempts and the Disarm feature of the whip. 1+4+1+2+2 for trip, 1+4+1+2 for disarm.)
I'd say go for the bard. You don't expect intense combat, so there's no need to max out your combat potential. You can work on the roleplaying aspects instead, and bards have lots of that. You'll get bardic music and cantrips, which have a ton of potential in a low magic world. If there is minimal magic in the world, you can expect any magic to make a big impact on NPC's. Ghost Sound and Prestidigitation both come to mind. Even light could dazzle a crowd, and would come in handy for an all human party in the dark.
Since you have weapon finesse, you use your dex bonus already with the whip, so agile maneuvers won't help any extra with any whip based CM's. There are plenty of good feats to choose from, those listed above are good, or dodge & mobility might suit your character type.
Maxximilius wrote:
With the Heirloom Weapon trait and with a full fighter level (or one level in bard for the proficiency, suggesting either vanilla bard, Archeologist or Dervish Dancer, which in either case make you not lost BAB since Inspire Courage counterbalances it), you may begin with :
8/18/14/13/12/12
You may want to take a look at the Tactician fighter if you wish skill points, class skills and to help allies.
There is also this archetype that could really interest you if your DM allows for external content.
Let's say one level of bard, and the rest in vanilla fighter.
So, at second level :
Traits : Heirloom Weapon (Whip ; +2 to one maneuver (Trip)), ???
H. Weapon Finesse
1. Combat Expertise
2(F). Improved Trip
BAB : +1
Melee : +5 (add +1 with inspire courage)
CMB : +1 (+10 when using trip with the Whip ; +8 for disarm with the Whip) (+1 with inspire courage)
Att : Masterwork Scorpion Whip ; +6, 1d4-1 20x2
You're beginning with a +11 average to trip, and +9 to disarm.
(Agile maneuvers is used to calculate the CMB for maneuvers not using a weapon and not made as an attack but as a standard action. Trip and disarm may replace attacks, so you have BAB + Dex + Weapon Bonuses + Feats + Any other potential bonus... here, the Heirloom Weapon for Tripping, attempts and the Disarm feature of the whip. 1+4+1+2+2 for trip,...
This is looking great! Remember, with the nerfed magic, I'm grabbing a bonus feat at 1st level (Although at this point I'm just dipping i Vanilla Bard at 1st level to snag the feat, features, skills and proficiency with the whip).
What I have drawn up so far:
Human
10/18/10/13/12/16
1st (Bard 1): Heirloom Weapon (Whip) (This is still pending as the GM has not responded to me just yet), Combat Expertise (Human), Improved Trip (1st), Weapon Finesse (Setting Bonus)
2nd (Fighter 1): Weapon Focus (Whip) (Fighter 1st Bonus Feat)
3rd (Fighter 2): Whip Mastery (2nd), Improved Disarm (Fighter 2nd Bonus Feat)
From there on I'm picking up Improved Whip Mastery at some point and Combat Reflexes. I went a bit higher on Charisma because it will be a very socially oriented campaign. Why such a high Con in your suggestion? I figured this build would aim to be tripping and retreating while others finished things off.
Well, 10 Con for a fighter is gonna make you regreat your choice soon or later, but I guess that it should not be so bad in a socially oriented campaign and once you get Combat Reflexes/Whip Mastery feats to trip or disarm whatever enter your threatened zone.
Maxximilius wrote: Well, 10 Con for a fighter is gonna make you regreat your choice soon or later, but I guess that it should not be so bad in a socially oriented campaign and once you get Combat Reflexes/Whip Mastery feats to trip or disarm whatever enter your threatened zone. It's already been confirmed that we'll have someone to tank. The fighter aspect of this build is really just for feats and the Cad flavor. Also, unless my GM and I are reading it wrong, I can't apply Heirloom Weapon to a whip, can I?
I forgot that by RAW, you may not apply Heirloom Weapon to an exotic weapon... but well, in this case, you have two questions to answer :
- Would this weapon be considered "exotic" for your character on it's background ? (as a matter of preferences and as a DM, I would probably have given you the choice to take proficiency in two weapons instead of the first level bonus feat, like the half-orc's "Beastmaster" alternate racial trait that gives proficiency in Whips and Nets)
- Would your DM prefer to see you taking a polearm master and a Guisarme heirloom weapon, to litteraly put any foe prone just by looking at them ?
Because this way, if you follow the RAW :
- Take Half-Orc as a race, and the Character Trait diluting your blood so you just look like a bulky human, without looking in any other way like an orc. So you are a half-orc, but look in any way like a musculary, tall human. Gain Whips and Nets as martial weapons by trading Ferocity with Beast Master. You could be an impressive beast tamer or trained in staged fights, with uncanny charisma and intimidation, due to a long lost trace of orc blood in your veins, whether due to a tragic backstory eons ago or a wizard experiment - who knows.
- With your second trait (because by RAW, the rules suggest to parties using the Traits rules to provide each 1st level character with two traits), you may now use Heirloom Weapon with Whips, since you treat them as martial weapons ! Then, enjoy.
you might want to consider a female character.
A female in light armor (studded leather?) and using a whip has just so many role playing possibilities....
I'm playing in a roguish campaign as a female 2-wp fighter archetype with 2 planned levels of bard daredevil and a meteor hammer. Now L3 (2 f, 1 b).
So far, she's been most useful for tripping baddies for the big fighter. Though he died so we'll see how it goes with her being the main fighter.
Her stats: Int 16, Dex 17, Cha 15, Str 12, Con 10, Wis 8
She's fun, anyway.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Consider looking here: Whip Fighter Thread
Lot of good stuff there, I'm actually playing the fighter/inquisitor version and liking it, but I wouldn't go there in a low magic game.
Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery are great, the greater whip mastery is so so.
I would consider 13 Str to take power attack one day.
Not sure if this is still relavent since the OP posted this quite some time ago at this point, but if you havent started yet, your gm might want to look at the 3rd party product line the Super Genius Games Guide to Archetypes. Specifically the martial archetypes. They allow classes to trade out packages of abilities for others. By using this product that bard, ranger, paladin, and inquisitor can all be made playable in his world with something specifically designed to work with it, since the standard archetypes from paizo are not neccessarily meant to replace spellcasting.
This would specifically work out for the OP as it would allow the black snake archetype which is whip focused and would save him several feats as well as provide some very cool options for whip use.
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