Personally, I feel that the master chemist is lacking in some manner. I can't put my finger on it as to why.. But right now it doesn't feel mechanically that you really play two different people, but instead play one person and then his super sayin mode.
Personally, I feel that the master chemist is lacking in some manner. I can't put my finger on it as to why.. But right now it doesn't feel mechanically that you really play two different people, but instead play one person and then his super sayin mode.
It's super saiyan.[/nitpick]
My biggest issue is that it doesn't get Persistent mutagen. While extended is very close to all day by higher levels, it doesn't have the feel. Really to make it feel like you're two people truly has to be done via RP.
Personally, I feel that the master chemist is lacking in some manner. I can't put my finger on it as to why.. But right now it doesn't feel mechanically that you really play two different people, but instead play one person and then his super sayin mode.
It's super saiyan.[/nitpick]
My biggest issue is that it doesn't get Persistent mutagen. While extended is very close to all day by higher levels, it doesn't have the feel. Really to make it feel like you're two people truly has to be done via RP.
That might actually be it for me as well, the lack of persistent mutagen.
I know that some of it is done through RP, but the mechanics of it doesn't seem to support the RP.
I don't think it's ment to be the chance to play two different people...I think it's you playing the same character seen through a tinted lense. The Jeckle and Hyde story, as far as I'm familiar with it, isn't that Hyde is some complete other entite, but Jeckle without the filter that polite society encourages us to have. Where Jeckle see's a pretty woman and tips his hat to her, maybe admiring her physical features so subtlely as to almost be subconciously...Hyde sees that same girl and goes right in and rapes her. They both find the same girl attractive for the same qualities, but choose to act on these feelings in far different ways.
It's like being presented with a situation when you're in a good mood and everything's fine...and later being presented with the exact same situation in a completely different mindset (like right after getting into a bad fight with your wife, or when your really drunk). It's still you making the decisions, but the results are very very different.
I find that really a cop-out personally.
If I'm suppose to support this by RPing, then there is no point to taking master chemist, as I can do that with just the base alchemist class. I've already started trying to do it, including creating descriptions on the characters appearance for the two forms, including the buzzwords of the mutated form. (Specifically YA-HA after firing an alchemist fire or bomb.)
The way it is currently, the mutated form mechanically is just a powerboost, and nothing more. Maybe if mutated form had some way of switching out feats or really gaining some abilities while losing others. In addition, being able to be in mutated form for much longer without having to spend a mutagen advancement would also help towards its mechanics..
Look at the mater spy just below it. Just about everything you need to be a spy right there, including the ability to shift alignments, or even have basic knowledge about things, etc.
I dunno truthfully. It just seems its selling mechanic is pretty weak for anything other than just a powerboost, when you can still do the same thing pretty much as an alchemist.
Maybe an archtype that focuses on mutagens would do what you want?
|
The way it is currently, the mutated form mechanically is just a powerboost, and nothing more. Maybe if mutated form had some way of switching out feats or really gaining some abilities while losing others. In addition, being able to be in mutated form for much longer without having to spend a mutagen advancement would also help towards its mechanics..
You could say the same thing about barbarian rage, "rage isn't rage, it's just a power up with some side effects (can't cast, etc)". For that matter you can say the same about any game power. Game rules are what you make of them.
To me the alignment change, the physical form change, and the fact that you can change multiple times per day without spending time prepping all support the multiple personality shtick fairly well.
The way it is currently, the mutated form mechanically is just a powerboost, and nothing more. Maybe if mutated form had some way of switching out feats or really gaining some abilities while losing others. In addition, being able to be in mutated form for much longer without having to spend a mutagen advancement would also help towards its mechanics..You could say the same thing about barbarian rage, "rage isn't rage, it's just a power up with some side effects (can't cast, etc)". For that matter you can say the same about any game power. Game rules are what you make of them.
To me the alignment change, the physical form change, and the fact that you can change multiple times per day without spending time prepping all support the multiple personality shtick fairly well.
Yes, rage is a powerup. That is exactly what it is.
Mutagen is also a powerup when played with the alchemist class.There is nothing wrong with that.
The wrong thing comes from how the master chemist is.
for example lets take barb and say that there is two sides of the barb.. Rage and something else. We let the barb really take care of the something else, and make a PRC called Frenzied Berserker for the Rage portion of the barb.
We make a handful of abilities for the barbs rage for the Frenzied Berserker, but then also recycle some of the most powerful abilities of a barb. We give you exactly 5 rage powers you earn, just as if you played through barb, cept the FB's powers are a little bit different.
FB doesn't give you tireless rage, indomitable will or Greater/mighty rage. FB increases the other side of barb, but only halfway. It counts for rage duration though.
at the first level, we give you the ability to more easily go in and out of rage, and the ability to have only chaotic as your alignment while raging.
And thats it. you gain 5 rage powers, a easier time going in and out of rage, and a few exotic rage choices..
To me, either the exotic rage choices need to be really amazing, or it just isn't worth going a FB, even if there a whole bunch of fluff there that just isn't really supported.
It would be like playing an assassin who doesn't have things like death attack and poison use, or a master spy who doesn't get linguistics or superficial knowledge.
Some things I've thought about, Why doesn't the alternate form have the ability to provide as though you were wearing a disguise, but you don't gain the bonuses against people who've seen your transformation ect.
Why isn't there a capstone ability such as "Duality - True sight doesn't work on seeing through your transformation. Divination spells to find the form you currently are not, automatically fail." (Badly worded i know)
The extend mutagen shouldn't have been made. At level 5 or so the master chemist should have gotten the ability of the alchemist to make mutagens last 1hour per level.
The mutagens should have also given powers in both your normal form and your mutated form. The weaker one effect is in one form, the stronger its opposite effect would be in another.
For example, a mutagen effect that increases your vision while mutated giving you dark vision 60 feet while mutated. This is a +2 perception bonus while in normal form.
|
|
Why doesn't the alternate form have the ability to provide as though you were wearing a disguise, but you don't gain the bonuses against people who've seen your transformation ect.
Are you reading the same class I am?
The mutagenic form is often ugly and monstrous and may even appear to be a different race or gender than her normal form; they may look as different as two unrelated people. Indeed, the mutagenic form often has his or her own name, and may attempt to maintain independent relationships and strongholds (though the alter ego's limited time in existence often makes this difficult). The mutagenic form even has his or her own alignment (which is selected by the player, but must be different from the master chymist's normal alignment). The change in alignment only affects the master chymist while in her mutagenic form.
It can't be any more clear than that, it's not a disguise, it's a completely different person, you can gender bend, race change... whatever, you are for all intents and purposes a different person.
. At level 5 or so the master chemist should have gotten the ability of the alchemist to make mutagens last 1hour per level.
No arguments here... though personally by the time you get persistent mutagen you are getting more than enough time in mutated form and have the ability to pop in and out or change from a dex based mutagen to a strength one. Essentially you get long enough for most every game and a vastly more versatile ability so I'll take the trade.
The mutagens should have also given powers in both your normal form and your mutated form. The weaker one effect is in one form, the stronger its opposite effect would be in another.
This doesn't even make sense... it's like saying barbarians should benefit from rage powers when they aren't raging.
I think the PrC accomplishes the intended flavor.
The description specifically goes into how the mutant form exists within a `limited time in existence`.
Master Chymist is not about becoming a new person all the time, it is about enhancing the contrast between 2 personalities/forms.
Why doesn't the alternate form have the ability to provide as though you were wearing a disguise, but you don't gain the bonuses against people who've seen your transformation ect.Are you reading the same class I am?
The mutagenic form is often ugly and monstrous and may even appear to be a different race or gender than her normal form; they may look as different as two unrelated people. Indeed, the mutagenic form often has his or her own name, and may attempt to maintain independent relationships and strongholds (though the alter ego's limited time in existence often makes this difficult). The mutagenic form even has his or her own alignment (which is selected by the player, but must be different from the master chymist's normal alignment). The change in alignment only affects the master chymist while in her mutagenic form.It can't be any more clear than that, it's not a disguise, it's a completely different person, you can gender bend, race change... whatever, you are for all intents and purposes a different person.
As it stands, there is no real mechanical effect there other than the alignment change. everything else is just RP. Which means the DM is more capable of easily ignoring it.
. At level 5 or so the master chemist should have gotten the ability of the alchemist to make mutagens last 1hour per level.No arguments here... though personally by the time you get persistent mutagen you are getting more than enough time in mutated form and have the ability to pop in and out or change from a dex based mutagen to a strength one. Essentially you get long enough for most every game and a vastly more versatile ability so I'll take the trade.
for short games, like pathfinder society type games, yes its current form lasts "long enough"
But this is still like that FB PRC, were its all about rage, but you don't get a really good rage power, Tireless rage, that would allow you to rage much easier.
The mutagens should have also given powers in both your normal form and your mutated form. The weaker one effect is in one form, the stronger its opposite effect would be in another.
This doesn't even make sense... it's like saying barbarians should benefit from rage powers when they aren't raging.
No, not really.
The barb actually gains benifit from his "rage" while not raging. Things like DR and fast movement.
This is like a Barb/Spellcasting PRC that focuses on enhanchign his magic while not raging, and amplifying his melee while raging.
Like "Raging Spell Fist - Add your str bonus in damage to any melee touch spell you cast, while raging you do an additional 1d4 points of force damage while attacking unarmed."
As it stands, there is no real mechanical effect there other than the alignment change. everything else is just RP. Which means the DM is more capable of easily ignoring it.
What? While I see from where your statement comes, I believe I'd be far less interested in playing with a GM who can easily ignore roleplaying. Would bug the barbarian out of me. :)
The alignment change alone can be very useful. Appearing as a different race and gender can, too. Is there a combat benefit for the latter two? Not really, but not all prestige classes are focused on combat alone. To the left, the Master Chymist does have some darn good combat benefits.
I play a MC in a RotR game. The reason I chose it? I get to play two personalities in one character. I, for one, think that is awesome. I can play a Neutral Good alchemist and a Chaotic Neutral claw-and-bite machine. And, with the right set-up, few in-game characters (PC or NPC) will ever know it's the same person.
Then again, Jekyll & Hyde are near and dear to me. Your CLW potion may taste different. :)
As far as mechanics...there doesn't need to be that much more. Your stats change because of the mutagen affecting you. Also, you seem to be forgetting the forced change damage to you can cause (at least I remember there being something about this in the PrC).
I think part of the problem is your expectation. This class isn't there to let you play two seperate characters, with different stats/skills/feats/abilities. It's there to give you a Jeckel and Hyde type character, which it does rather well. What your saying is something along the lines of "I want to play a woodsy hunter type guy who casts spells like magic missle and fireball, but when I make a ranger it doesn't work."
If you REALLY have to have one physical character with two completely different stat arays...get with your DM and come up with something. I would suggest playing a summoner, but I think what you want is "one body, two characters". It's a cool idea, and something I've tried to play in the past (in second edition, not longer after reading the Tribe of One Darksun series).
Not having persistent mutagen is a feature, not a flaw.
If a level 14, 840 min, Alchemist drinks a mutagen, he mutates for 14 hours. He's stuck, with the all the stat changes, and the physical cosmetic changes, for 14 hours and the only thing he can do about it is take an hour to brew another mutagen to change his stats. He can't assume normal form again before he goes to bed.
A level 7Alchemist/7 Master Chymist mutagen only lasts 140 min, but he can also mutate on his own an extra 3 time per day. So while he can spend less time in mutated form, only 560 min, it's still enough for most campaigns. Plus, he reverts back to his regular form for social interaction after only 2 hours and change. Also, when he mutates back, he can pick different stats if he wants, he's not locked in. And he can takle the time to brew more mutagens, just like the alchemist can. If he wants to take extended mutagen, he can spend more time mutated than the alchemist, and he can still turn it off or change the stat boosts.
The Master Chymists mutagenic form is more powerful and more versatile than the Alchemists. That's the mechanical difference.
Also, how are fast movement and DR a benefit of rage? They have nothing to do with rage. They're a benefit of being a barbarian.
This is like a straight barb PRC that increases the functionality and duration of rage and gives rage powers, but does not advance DR or Fast Movement
|
|
As it stands, there is no real mechanical effect there other than the alignment change. everything else is just RP. Which means the DM is more capable of easily ignoring it.
I'm not even sure why you would think this. It's right smack in the middle of a section of rules text and it's pretty obvious what it does.
GM: "They recognize you"
Player: "My mutagenic form is a female orc with huge fangs and claws when in this form, I'm normally an elf!"
GM: "Yes but it's a female orc with fangs that looks exactly like you."
Player: "We look as different as two unrelated people."
GM: "Yes, you look like two unrelated people that are the exactly identical."
Someone needs a GM upgrade.
for short games, like pathfinder society type games, yes its current form lasts "long enough"
I don't necessarily disagree here, I just don't think it's that big a deal and feel the duration isn't as important as the fact that you can change multiple times. You get three times the duration in form for 5 levels and the 9+ hours you get at 14th level when persistent kicks in is plenty. If it's not there is extended for 18+ hours.
The barb actually gains benifit from his "rage" while not raging. Things like DR and fast movement.
This doesn't fit your example though, DR and fast movement don't increase when you rage. They are simply other class abilities, sort of like the Master Chymst has access to his bombs, extracts, and other class abilities when he's not mutated.
As it stands, there is no real mechanical effect there other than the alignment change. everything else is just RP. Which means the DM is more capable of easily ignoring it.What? While I see from where your statement comes, I believe I'd be far less interested in playing with a GM who can easily ignore roleplaying. Would bug the barbarian out of me. :)
The alignment change alone can be very useful. Appearing as a different race and gender can, too. Is there a combat benefit for the latter two? Not really, but not all prestige classes are focused on combat alone. To the left, the Master Chymist does have some darn good combat benefits.
I play a MC in a RotR game. The reason I chose it? I get to play two personalities in one character. I, for one, think that is awesome. I can play a Neutral Good alchemist and a Chaotic Neutral claw-and-bite machine. And, with the right set-up, few in-game characters (PC or NPC) will ever know it's the same person.
Then again, Jekyll & Hyde are near and dear to me. Your CLW potion may taste different. :)
My point there, when we take classes, we take them for mechanical purposes. There is very little RP reason to take a specific class and not its mechanics, beyond its name.
If you wanted to make a stealthy rogue like character, it can easily be done even with a class like fighter. Sure its not gonna be as good as rogue, but you are just rping.
In the same way, as an alchemist, I can still easily do Dr. Jeckel/Mr. Hyde, being TN and swinging to the edges of TN alignment. Thats my real beef with it, I can easily mimic the same thing as an alchemist.
Stuck in it for 14 hours? Hardly. Lesser restoration, problem solved. Need to change stats for some reason? Sure early on this might be a little problem.. Course that's what having a case full of mutagens is for. At at level 20, you can use the big grand daddy mutagen that gives +8 to all physical scores.
Onto the barb thing.. How are they not? Its not like the barb is a very multi-sided character like say a druid. Barbs get angry and smash stuff (rage). Druids though have 3 key features; Wildshape, spellcasting, and animal companion.
Truthfully this is more like a Druid PRC based on wildshape, giving you some exotic choices in abilities. But then several of them fall short and really should have been rolled into the base druid wildshape (Or worse, are actually part of the base wildshape.) meanwhile the top ability for wildshape remains firmly out of your reach the moment you took one level of the wildshape based class.
But heck, If I still decide I want to go with master chemist, I'm just gonna take 6 levels of it, gaining 3 advance mutagens. level 14 alchemist, I can stay in mutated form for 30 hours at level 16.
A short side question: Did anyone else read "Master Chauvinist"?
We don't have a cleric PrC for Erastil yet.... :D
In the same way, as an alchemist, I can still easily do Dr. Jeckel/Mr. Hyde, being TN and swinging to the edges of TN alignment. Thats my real beef with it, I can easily mimic the same thing as an alchemist.
From an RP standpoint, yes. From a mechanics standpoint, no. You would detect as TN no matter what. With MC, you detect as NG in one form, CN in another.
From a GM's perspective, this can have wonderful applications. A NG NPC who changes to CE? That could *really* mess with a Paladin...;)
In the same way, as an alchemist, I can still easily do Dr. Jeckel/Mr. Hyde, being TN and swinging to the edges of TN alignment. Thats my real beef with it, I can easily mimic the same thing as an alchemist.From an RP standpoint, yes. From a mechanics standpoint, no. You would detect as TN no matter what. With MC, you detect as NG in one form, CN in another.
From a GM's perspective, this can have wonderful applications. A NG NPC who changes to CE? That could *really* mess with a Paladin...;)
But thats pretty much what I mean. The only real mechanical effect of the alter ego is the alignment shift.
As a GM, I could easily ignore some things about the MC that RP wise makes sense, but don't work rules wise.
For example I had a druid who would pick up random stuff and use it as an improvised weapon. (Took both feats, catch off guard and throw anything) And I had a grappling hook that I was using to attack with.
RP wise, it stood to reason I could "grapple" with a grappling hook and take down a flying creature, especially if I rolled and hit it. But as there was no mechanics for this, specifically cannot "trip" flying creatures or grapple at a range being mechanics, The DM had denied it.
Similar with this..
GM: "They recognize you"
Player: "My mutagenic form is a female orc with huge fangs and claws when in this form, I'm normally an elf!"
GM: "Yes but it's a female orc with fangs that looks exactly like you."
Player: "We look as different as two unrelated people."
GM: "Yes, you look like two unrelated people that are the exactly identical."
The GM could be like that, or the GM could also go "The guards of this major metropolitan city ran by the worlds most powerful mages guild all have true seeing, so they recognize you."
I'm thinking my biggest complaint really with it, most of the advance mutagens are situational at best, or duplicates. There is no real capstone ability, cept unless you count the dragon mutagen as one. (can still take it at 2nd level master chemist.)
Much of the PRC could have easily been just a new archtype for alchemist instead of becoming a PRC.
Umm...
How can game designers build a game when you assume that your GM ignores the class features?
You have set an impossible standard to meet. "My GM ignores the rules so this class is broken".
*shrug*
Actually its pretty simple. Put some actual rules in there.
The mutagenic form is often ugly and monstrous and may even
appear to be a different race or gender than her normal
form; they may look as different as two unrelated people.
Indeed, the mutagenic form often has his or her own name,
and may attempt to maintain independent relationships
and strongholds (though the alter ego’s limited time in
existence often makes this difficult). The mutagenic form
even has his or her own alignment (which is selected by the
player, but must be different from the master chymist’s
normal alignment). The change in alignment only affects
the master chymist while in her mutagenic form.
Is from the book. There is two things there, one is actual mechanic while the other is a "fluff" mechanic. The alignment change and the name change.
Everything else is about as important as describing how your magic missile looks from a mechanical perspective.
Doesn't matter if your wizard casts magic missile by using pelvic thrusts and it looks like tiny little snitches flying at the enemy. They still easily recognize it as magic missile. You are still susceptible to all rules imposed onto wizard spellcasting.
But you pick up a feat called Signature spell, allowing the mechanics to catch up almost to the some of the RP, by rewarding you with a higher spellcraft DC to ID the spell.
Similar could have been applied to the mutagen form.
For example similar things as I've said earlier.
+30 or more on disguise checks to prevent people from realizing you are the other form. I know its not a "disguise" but neither is polymorphing into a dog. This bonus depletes as appropriate. (For example if someone has seen both forms you take a small penalty to it, and if someone has seen the transformation you have little to no bonus.)
Then in later levels, as I've said, preventing True seeing or scrying from being an "IWIN" on figuring it out as well.
Right there are actual rules.
Actually its pretty simple. Put some actual rules in there...
Everything else is about as important as describing how your magic missile looks from a mechanical perspective.
Similar could have been applied to the mutagen form.
But that's only one aspect of one feature. To the left, picking up even one level of MC gives you two extra uses of Mutate per day. To get the same effect from an Alch alone you'd have to pick a discovery *and* spend 2000 GP. That mechanic alone is pretty nice.
Personally, I'm happy with the class as it is. Granting a persistent mutagen would overbalance the class when you consider that the bonuses granted are alchemical and stack with enhancement bonuses. Why would anyone ever *not* be in their mutagenic form were that the case?
the reason you don't get a +30 or whatever disguise bonus in mutagenic form is because there is no disguise roll. All attempts to figure out it was once an elf auto-fail. If you decide your mutagenic form looks like your fighter buddy then how could your DM justify that anyone could know its you?
If it walks, talks, and looks like a duck the DM is unreasonable to make people respond as if its a tiger. The mechanical benefit is that your DM has to metagame in order for anyone to even think you were once another person, which is cheating, and if he does it feel free to never make a knowledge roll and use every monster weakness to your advantage, hell look at the DM's notes, that's the kind of game he's playing anyway. Yes the rogue sucks too when your +600 stealth roll is defeated because you told the DM where you hid.
The master chemist makes a better jekel/hyde because instead of one side just being a little stronger it makes the transformation much more beastly then the original with a whole slew of effects that more mechanically show a second side (dual mind comes to mind)
It doesn´t need rules for determining your true identity vs. mutagen form appearance any more than Polymorph does. Polymorph looks like a typical member of the species you selected (even though your abilities may vary). Like Shadow of Death said, there is no disguise check... And at high levels, YES, True Seeing reveals your true form, just like it does for Druid Wildshape, Lycanthropes, etc. So what?
Again, I think the PrC works just great for it´s stated aims.
I find it weird that somebody putting out a critique that the PrC is just a power up (well, isn´t that what ever class is, one way or another?) somehow is hung up on the PrC not granting the same amount of time per day in mutagen form, or granting infinite time... which seems to be some assumption that´s being read into what they PrC should accomplish, even though it clearly goes into detail that the mutagen form exists only within limited time periods.
to be honest though, it would have been cool to have a change back and forth at will capstone.
It doesn´t need rules for determining your true identity vs. mutagen form appearance any more than Polymorph does. Polymorph looks like a typical member of the species you selected (even though your abilities may vary). Like Shadow of Death said, there is no disguise check... And at high levels, YES, True Seeing reveals your true form, just like it does for Druid Wildshape, Lycanthropes, etc. So what?
Again, I think the PrC works just great for it´s stated aims.
I find it weird that somebody putting out a critique that the PrC is just a power up (well, isn´t that what ever class is, one way or another?) somehow is hung up on the PrC not granting the same amount of time per day in mutagen form, or granting infinite time... which seems to be some assumption that´s being read into what they PrC should accomplish, even though it clearly goes into detail that the mutagen form exists only within limited time periods.
From the book
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical
body to take on the shape of another creature. While
these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting
you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not
grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of
a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of
bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural
armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you
a number of other benefits, including movement types,
resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants
these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you
gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability
of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead.
In otherwords, there are already rules established for polymorph and the entire line of polymorph abilities that grant you +20 to disguise checks.
Notice there is no disguise roll either.What i'm saying vs the true seeing is just a capstone ability where your two ego's exist a two perfectly different individuals. Not something that really comes up too much, but neither does NPCs trying to resurrect another. (Assassins: Angel of Death Capstone)
I'm not saying the class is "just a power-up" I'm saying mutagen starts off as "Just a power-up" as it should, but you take this PRC to expand that into some more. Yet it remains as such. In fact now its even closer to the barbarian rage ability because you can do it at will (provided you have uses left)
|
|
Funny, i agree that the PrC is lacking but not because of the fluff. You lose too much spell lvls for too little gain. And the fact that the dmg bonus you gain can only be use with natural atcks or small weapons corner you in a feral / natural atacks build.
The way the prc is its not worth dip in it more than 3 lvls.
Funny, i agree that the PrC is lacking but not because of the fluff. You lose too much spell lvls for too little gain. And the fact that the dmg bonus you gain can only be use with natural atcks or small weapons corner you in a feral / natural atacks build.
The way the prc is its not worth dip in it more than 3 lvls.
Finally! My faith in humanity is restored a bit. The question that always drives me hazy.. is it just me or the rest of the world who is crazy?
Indeed, even with just pure mechanics, it lacks compared to every other PRC out there.
Just looking at its advance mutagens, you get to choose 5 out of 15 advance mutagens. Sounds great at first, till you start to look at them. 3 of the mutagens are part of the alchemist class, one of which is even a possible pre-req for the PRC. That leaves us with 5/12 choices.. still not too bad.. but..
But one of those choices is Disguise. Which has no real mechanical effect except for allowing you to shrink down if you took growth mutagen.
Then you have 2 sensory mutagens, sent and night vision. Not really that game defining really. I mean most of the races get low light vision, and some get even dark vision. Sent is okay, but really, is it really worth being put into a prc and not just having to be a certain level of alchemist?
Burly/Nimble - Pretty much skill monkey boost ahoy. These two are pretty good if you decide to go full master chemist, too bad there isn't much else to make you really want to unless you are going to be a roid rager.
Duel mind - This is the only real advance mutagen that continues the theme of the master chemist being 2 persona in one body. Notice it does give a +2 to will saves regardless of current form.
Draconic mutagen - You only get to choose this once, so better make the element count. +20 resist against that element, an okay breath attack you only get to use once per mutation, but you have to have a combined "caster level" of 16 before you can get this. Often you are going to only be using half of it, either you will find enemies who can take your breath weapon, or you will find enemies that deal that damage and resist it. some enemies might even be completely immune to the element (Undead vs Cold damage comes to mind.) and not use the element.
Growth - counts as if you used enlarge person and requires that you know enlarge person or a similar potion of later level. Why not just use enlarge person?
Evasion - Another okay one, but really why couldn't this have been rolled into the alchemists mutagen instead?
Furious mutagen - Without someone in the party who is playing something like druid, by level 11 you are probably gonna start running into people who can't be hit without the aid of magical equipment or have DR vs your attacks.
Restoring Change - This is a really good one, and pretty worthy of requiring a PRC to gain. I mean after all you could at level 10 alchemist, level 10 master chemist heal (5+x+Y) * (1d8+20) (X being the number of mutagen you allow to fade naturally, Y being the number of mutagens you create.)
Its really depressing when you start looking at the advance mutagens. Its almost as if they where like " 'Dr. Jekel, Mr. Hyde' PRC!" and then they made like 5 mutagens (disguise, duel mind, burley/nimble, and restoring) and were like Oh we need more but we ran out of ideas.. Lets take all of these from the alchemist.. and copy paste these three of them.
BTW Dr. Jekel Mr. Hyde as I've read it..
After a quick review of this, Which I've already read once before..
Mr. Hyde was created when the Dr. attempted to remove his "evil side". Now I'm not too sure if there was side effects to this in Jekel's form, but there was Mr. Hyde.
Hyde was somewhat discovered to be Jekel when someone noticed that the two's hand writing was very similar.
In the end, Jekel slowly lost to hyde who eventually took over the body for almost good. Then hyde also died.
That's a very rough version.
Really this is much closer to the Incredible hulk more than DR/MR.
But then again, IH is also very close to barbarians rage power.
The only real mechanic, as I've said, that even lends itself closer to DR/MR is the alignment change of the mutation. Otherwise you might as well just be Underdog.
(Speaking of which, yes my alchemist has a secret ring filled with super energy pills. And with just RP and my alchemist class, I already do the "stated goals" of the master chemist while still being just an alchemist. I've got two personalities going even if my characters alignment doesn't change, i can still play to the corners of the alignment.)
Yeah I really feel the exact opposite:
Why wouldn't you want this prestige class?
You gain:
full BAB
You lose:
Skill points
3 levels of extracts over 10 levels
In return you also get:
Evasion
Dual Mind
A form which doesn't detect as you at all
Burly (this is for the CMB and CMD bonuses -- which can be really nice)
Growth (which means you don't have to waste time popping an extract -- which is an action economy booster)
Nimble (more bonuses to CMD and a Natural Armor bonus)
Free bonuses to simple weapons and natural attacks damage rolls.
You don't give up your bombs, you don't give up the extracts (you even still get sixth level extracts), and you gain many bonuses in your mutagenic form (in addition to free uses of that form).
Is it a trade for everyone? No -- but it's not a bad one either -- especially considering you can still gain discoveries by trading out feats if you want.
Yeah I really feel the exact opposite:
Why wouldn't you want this prestige class?
You gain:
full BABYou lose:
Skill points
3 levels of extracts over 10 levelsIn return you also get:
Evasion
Dual Mind
A form which doesn't detect as you at all
Burly (this is for the CMB and CMD bonuses -- which can be really nice)
Growth (which means you don't have to waste time popping an extract -- which is an action economy booster)
Nimble (more bonuses to CMD and a Natural Armor bonus)
Free bonuses to simple weapons and natural attacks damage rolls.You don't give up your bombs, you don't give up the extracts (you even still get sixth level extracts), and you gain many bonuses in your mutagenic form (in addition to free uses of that form).
Is it a trade for everyone? No -- but it's not a bad one either -- especially considering you can still gain discoveries by trading out feats if you want.
What do you lose out on?
Bombs: Actually you do give up on bombs. Every two levels of master chemist you lose out on a discovery that could have enhanced your bombs. But thats not the main loss, if you take 10 level of master chemist you lose 10 bombs.
Capstone: You lose out on every capstone ability of the alchemist, including the top end mutagen.
Favored Class: that's 10 hp, 10 skill points, or a variety of other effects (mix and match).
Where in the rules of the class does the form not detect as you? All that is there is flavor text of the mutagen. Notice how it says things like often and may quite a few times.
Then there is Persistent mutagen, and Instant alchemy.
Then you lose out on feats if you want to gain additional discoveries beyond the 5 you would get by level 10 alchemist.
How many bomb discoveries do you actually need? Force and swift... that's about it. Even then the damage from bombs is underwhelming in most cases.
Ok the feats are given up for more discoveries -- except as you just said I'm getting several of those same discoveries already -- discoveries I would have probably taken anyways. So I'm not so much losing any as I am gaining others. Yes I am losing bombs per day... but then again that's a small issue over all.
The favored class loss is made up with the increased hit dice size.
It states quite clearly that the mutagenic form is its own race, gender and alignment -- it even goes so far as to state it detects as such with the alignment. There is no disguise roll because you are a different person -- this isn't just "fluff" this is the mechanical effect of the mutagenic form. Yes they know each other and share the same basic memories and goals -- but that doesn't mean they aren't two entirely different personalities and people in one body. Mechanical parts of the rules often include the words may and like -- it doesn't mean its any less mechanical.
Presistent mutagen is something of a loss -- however it's not a complete wash since you get 5 times your normal daily usage for free (in addition to the ability to make more mutagens -- heck you could change, and then make another mutagen while changed to take again when the first starts to wear off).
Again I would say what you gain is easily equal to what you "lose" which is very little to begin with.
Lose little -- gain little -- but it certainly isn't a case where you lose a lot.
I recently posted a thread where i made a lvl 18 alchemist for a two shot game. During that while listening to peoples suggestions i stated out several builds for maser chymist there were some things i noticed.
Several of the Advanced Mutagens that are really key are all lvl 16+
meaning if you do lvl 8 alch lvl 10 maser Chymist you only have 2 chances between several of them.
The Dragon form seems really Nifty but appears set up to be the lvl 20 advanced mutagen due to the requirements.
All that said you can bump up your Mlee attacks o silly levels with this PRC between the large size the claws the bumped damage or even just.. turning into a huge animal (and having your damage bumped up stil due to the mutagens) the raw claw damage seems pretty solid.
One thing i did notice as well is Extra discoveries doesnt work very Well for master Chymist seems the only time their Alchemist and MAster chymist levels stack is when choosing an advanced Mutagen.
So what your saying is you lose some things and gain other things, unlike 3.5 prc's that lost nothing and gained a bunch more and were no-brainers to take. If your a mutagen monkey then this PRC really supports that if not then don't take it.
Perfect balance :)
|
|
What do you lose out on?
Bombs: Actually you do give up on bombs. Every two levels of master chemist you lose out on a discovery that could have enhanced your bombs. But thats not the main loss, if you take 10 level of master chemist you lose 10 bombs.
Eh... you aren't taking Master Chymst to be a better bomber (though your faster BAB progression means you can lob the bombs you have faster and more accurately). You typically get 12-16 bombs per day which is enough for 3-4 rounds of serious mayhem.
Keep in mind Master Chymst is the Mr Hyde build out of Alchemist, he's not a bomber, he's the madman who tears people apart with his bare hands.
Capstone: You lose out on every capstone ability of the alchemist, including the top end mutagen.
For those who ever see level 20, this is relevant. For me? I could care less about what happens at levels 18-20. Even if you do see level 20 it's ~5% of your total time in class. I'm guessing most people never play 20th level.
But if 20th level (actually it starts to hurt around 18th level when the Alchemist gets some cool options that Chymst doesn't see) is important to you then it's probably best to stick with straight Alchemist.
Favored Class: that's 10 hp, 10 skill points, or a variety of other effects (mix and match).
Fair enough. Though master chymst does get one hit point more per level from hit dice so I'd say that's a wash.
Then there is Persistent mutagen, and Instant alchemy.
I'm not sure what huge benefit of instant alchemy is. You can make alchemists fire as a full round action... but you still need to have the components to make it. Why not just carry the finished form around? Or is the assumption that the alchemist summons the components from this air?
Then you lose out on feats if you want to gain additional discoveries beyond the 5 you would get by level 10 alchemist.
You don't lose out on them, you spend them on advanced mutagens instead.
Personally, I'd like to see some more options for advanced mutagens, there just aren't enough great choices to make it worth taking the full 10 levels. It's pretty solid for 6 levels though.
Honestly did I somehow get a bum version of APG?
Mine says.
The mutagenic form is often ugly and monstrous and may even appear to be a different race or gender than her normal form; they may look as different as two unrelated people.
Notice in the portion where you say
It states quite clearly that the mutagenic form is its own race, gender and alignment
It doesn't state that? Unless you got a directors cut version of the book, it clearly states "It appears"
In this example
GM: "They recognize you"
Player: "My mutagenic form is a female orc with huge fangs and claws when in this form, I'm normally an elf!"
GM: "Yes but it's a female orc with fangs that looks exactly like you."
Player: "We look as different as two unrelated people."
GM: "Yes, you look like two unrelated people that are the exactly identical."
Beyond the obvious flaw in the persons logic (Should be My Mutagenic form appears to be a female orc with huge fangs and claws.)
Say the GM went along with it, and lets just say the flavor text is truthfully rules text. Now its an I win button, provided the player can roleplay around everything.
So now you have a sorcerer that pelvic thrusts to cast magic missiles that look like snitches. Why can other casters ID the spell and act accordingly. Why does tying his hands prevent him from pelvic thrusting?
The mechanical rules when they use the word "May" as in Mounted riding
Once per round when your mount is hit in
combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as an immediate
action) to negate the hit.
Mechanical text never uses the word Often though, AFAIK. Show me where they ever use that for some that is 100% certain.
Actually favored class means more skill points, hp and/or whatever racial bonus there is.
It enhances the mutagen sure.. About the same way as the Arcane Duelist enhances the bards warfront capabilities. The difference between the two? Arcane duelist is a archtype.
Just look at every other PRC out there. Each and every single one of them have a capstone power, except Master Chemist.
Look how pretty much all of them progress. Mean while the master chemist just kinda sits there saying "I wanna be a barb instead"
Its just a real shame that some mutagen powers are lost to this wannabe PRC, instead of staying with the base class as they should of.
|
|
Funny, i agree that the PrC is lacking but not because of the fluff. You lose too much spell lvls for too little gain. And the fact that the dmg bonus you gain can only be use with natural atcks or small weapons corner you in a feral / natural atacks build.
The way the prc is its not worth dip in it more than 3 lvls.
Yeah... the Mr. Hyde fork of the alchemist is designed around the feral build... that's it's shtick. If going feral or polymorphing aren't part of your plans you are probably going to be let down. It is the Mr. Hyde build option after all.
So what your saying is you lose some things and gain other things, unlike 3.5 prc's that lost nothing and gained a bunch more and were no-brainers to take. If your a mutagen monkey then this PRC really supports that if not then don't take it.
Perfect balance :)
Its perfectly balanced for an archtype, sure. For a Prc.. No. Even for a "Mutagen monkey".
Also you Advance mutagens are not discoveries. You can't spend feats on them.
Also, what are the components of alchemist fire?
And again, no he is still not Mr. Hyde. He wants to be, I'll give you that, but it falls short. This is a "I really wanted to play barb" build option.
|
|
So what your saying is you lose some things and gain other things, unlike 3.5 prc's that lost nothing and gained a bunch more and were no-brainers to take. If your a mutagen monkey then this PRC really supports that if not then don't take it.
Perfect balance :)
Its perfectly balanced for an archtype, sure. For a Prc.. No. Even for a "Mutagen monkey".
Also you Advance mutagens are not discoveries. You can't spend feats on them.
Also, what are the components of alchemist fire?
And again, no he is still not Mr. Hyde. He wants to be, I'll give you that, but it falls short. This is a "I really wanted to play barb" build option.
Yeah... again, sounds like your issues with the class are less mechanical and more "it isn't what I want it to be".
Where do you get this concept that this is 'flavor text' only?Mechanical text never uses the word Often though, AFAIK. Show me where they ever use that for some that is 100% certain.
Actually favored class means more skill points, hp and/or whatever racial bonus there is.
From exactly what is written.
There is three things right there.
You may appear to be monster like.
You may appear to be a different person.
You may appear to be a different race/gender.
No where does it say you are any of these things.
No where does it say you automatically succeed any sense motive check to figure out who you really are.
No where does it say you automatically fail either.
It only says one solid thing. You have a a new alignment.
Right here
Indeed, the mutagenic form often has his or her own name,
and may attempt to maintain independent relationships
and strongholds (though the alter ego’s limited time in
existence often makes this difficult). The mutagenic form
even has his or her own alignment (which is selected by the
player, but must be different from the master chymist’s
normal alignment). The change in alignment only affects
the master chymist while in her mutagenic form.
I was actually wrong earlier. The mutant form does not have to take a new name.
Everything there is just flavor other than the alignment change.
Again, refer the previous post were it is just becomes an "Iwin" power when there is no mechanics beyond just "Hey I RP it."
Then attempt to apply the same logic to the pelvic thrusting sorcerer.
Yeah... again, sounds like your issues with the class are less mechanical and more "it isn't what I want it to be".
I just call it as it is. Only reason it seems "It isn't what i want it to be" is because it exists.
Name anything out there that you have a problem with, and we can also apply the same argument of it just isn't what you want it to be.
It is lacking. Not because I want it to be something else, but because we are treating the thing as a tiger even though it looks like an archtype, smells like an archtype and sounds like an archtype.
|
|
Yeah... I just don't follow your logic on the appearance thing, it's just too pedantic for me. "You appear to be a different creature"... works for me, as far as I'm concerned that's a rule not 'flavor text'. I would suggest reading the rules less like a lawyer and more like a person reading game rules, they are more enjoyable that way.
It is lacking. Not because I want it to be something else, but because we are treating the thing as a tiger even though it looks like an archtype, smells like an archtype and sounds like an archtype.
Umm... archetypes are available at first level.
Even if you assume it is an archetype... so? You say it's balanced as an archetype but not as a PrC how does that work out? It's either a viable option, it's overpowered, or it's underpowered. All else is a matter of taste... which ultimately seems to be what you have a problem with.
Once per round when your mount is hit in
combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as an immediate
action) to negate the hit.
This means that if you want to, you may make a ride check to yadda, yadda. If you don't want to, you don't have to.
The mutagenic form...may even appear to be a different race or gender than her normal form
This means that, if you want it to, your mutagenic form may appear to be a different race or gender than your normal form. If you don't want it to, it doesn't have to.
How is this complicated?So now you have a sorcerer that pelvic thrusts to cast magic missiles that look like snitches. Why can other casters ID the spell and act accordingly. Why does tying his hands prevent him from pelvic thrusting?
You still have to put your hands on your hips. (And possibly jump to the left)
Several of the Advanced Mutagens that are really key are all lvl 16+
meaning if you do lvl 8 alch lvl 10 maser Chymist you only have 2 chances between several of them.
There are three: Draconic Mutagen, Grand Mutagen, and Growth Mutagen. So you have to pick two, unless you want all three. In which case you take Alc 8/MCh 5/Alc 2/MCh 5. Then you can take all three.
Once per round when your mount is hit in
combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as an immediate
action) to negate the hit.This means that if you want to, you may make a ride check to yadda, yadda. If you don't want to, you don't have to.
The mutagenic form...may even appear to be a different race or gender than her normal formThis means that, if you want it to, your mutagenic form may appear to be a different race or gender than your normal form. If you don't want it to, it doesn't have to.
How is this complicated?
How is it complicated?
If you take it just as it is, as flavor text, then there is no real complication beyond the player possibly wanting to look different and it having no tactical effect.But when you start trying to say its actual rules text, Now it gets into something completely different.
Because now it is an "Iwin" power for the person who got it. Oh look, I get two compleatly different forms.. So I can play LG and CE. So by day my character is running around being totally LG and at night i slaughter innocents by the dozens (What I actually wanted to do anyways) and no one can every figure out who I am because its an automatic failure.
But now the DM is stuck with attempting to come up with crap like what you said below or with the "female orc" thing. And then the player starts feeling cheated because hell, he never got to roll anything and everyone suddenly knows he is the Incredible hulk who's been going around killing everyone. Or the DM has to figure out a way to force the player to mutate, even to the point of botching numbers just so there could be a crit hit or otherwise just say the character is pressured and needs to make a will save to not mutate.
So now you have a sorcerer that pelvic thrusts to cast magic missiles that look like snitches. Why can other casters ID the spell and act accordingly. Why does tying his hands prevent him from pelvic thrusting?You still have to put your hands on your hips. (And possibly jump to the left)
So you are basically saying you are going to pull the "female orc" stunt.
Yeah... I just don't follow your logic on the appearance thing, it's just too pedantic for me. "You appear to be a different creature"... works for me, as far as I'm concerned that's a rule not 'flavor text'. I would suggest reading the rules less like a lawyer and more like a person reading game rules, they are more enjoyable that way.
See the above post and the absolute headache it can cause.
In the end something like this becomes "Well I got a laser deflection shield!" "HA I my laser penetrates laser defection shields." similar to the scene in "Where the wild things are."
It is lacking. Not because I want it to be something else, but because we are treating the thing as a tiger even though it looks like an archtype, smells like an archtype and sounds like an archtype.Umm... archetypes are available at first level.
Even if you assume it is an archetype... so? You say it's balanced as an archetype but not as a PrC how does that work out? It's either a viable option, it's overpowered, or it's underpowered. All else is a matter of taste... which ultimately seems to be what you have a problem with.
Yes archtypes are available at first level. Maybe its cause I'm a designer myself, but I don't just look at the completed form and the tags that are put on it.
For example,
You took car and sealed it up so it could float. You attach a little boat motor onto it, then you go out to sea while calling it a boat.
But did you just build a boat?
By your logic yes, the floating car is a boat, mostly because you are calling a boat. And well, cars don't float well, and they certainly don't have this boat motor on them.
By my logic no. You just took a car and sealed it up and put a boat motor on it and started calling it a boat.
How is it complicated?
If you take it just as it is, as flavor text, then there is no real complication beyond the player possibly wanting to look different and it having no tactical effect.But when you start trying to say its actual rules text, Now it gets into something completely different.
Because now it is an "Iwin" power for the person who got it. Oh look, I get two compleatly different forms.. So I can play LG and CE. So by day my character is running around being totally LG and at night i slaughter innocents by the dozens (What I actually wanted to do anyways) and no one can every figure out who I am because its an automatic failure.
But now the DM is stuck with attempting to come up with crap like what you said below or with the "female orc" thing. And then the player starts feeling cheated because hell, he never got to roll anything and everyone suddenly knows he is the Incredible hulk who's been going around killing everyone. Or the DM has to figure out a way to force the player to mutate, even to the point of botching numbers just so there could be a crit hit or otherwise just say the character is pressured and needs to make a will save to not mutate.
umm.. this is exactly how it works. There are no mechanical rules to looking and acting completely different anywhere in the game, it is implied what looking different does to how people look at you. You were a LG elf now you are a CE orc, exactly as if you created two full character sheets and switched off between them mid game.
No one else seems to have an issue with that rule.
.
.
Hmmm
As I've said, the question that always drives me hazy is it me or the rest of the world that is crazy.
Course most people I've seen so far don't seem to have a problem with the rule because they just avoid the issue entirely, or their group is tight knit enough.
I'm pretty sure, that if there was more stuff that completely relied on interpretation like this, like some spell that had iffy wording that would allow it to do way more than it was probably intended to do, your group would be perfectly fine with it, because you've already 2nd edition-ed it. (come up with your own, possibly unspoken, house-rules that everyone just abides by, thus negating any potential problem it may have possessed in the first place.)
umm.. this is exactly how it works. There are no mechanical rules to looking and acting completely different anywhere in the game, it is implied what looking different does to how people look at you. You were a LG elf now you are a CE orc, exactly as if you created two full character sheets and switched off between them mid game.
There are no mechanical rules, there is no mechanical benefits.
If there is mechanical benefits then there must be mechanical rules in place. You never became a CE orc. You became a really ugly CE elf. You aren't two separate people, thus you don't have two completely separate character sheets.
Well there is only one course of action for me to prove my point as people either dodge the issue or just look at the things PRC tag and say "yep that's a PRC alright, and perfectly justifiable cause it not like 3.5 ones" (Actually it is. Geomancer comes to mind.)
And that's come up with a whole magazine style article on Transmogifier, the real Dr. Jeckel/Mr. Hyde Prc. (Name is pending.)
Challenge accepted!
It will be legend... Wait for it! Dairy!
There are no mechanical rules, there is no mechanical benefits
There is no mechanical benefit to looking like an elf either but you'd be dumb to expect a dwarf to treat you with respect. Do you just ignore this in your games too?
Nothing about appearance has any mechanical benefit/downside in any part of the game. if you make a +1,000,000 disguise check to looking like the king of a land well guess what? there is NO mechanical benefit to looking like the king, point me to where it says there is. So why would this be useful in game?
and yes you can look just like a female orc, says you can appear to be a different race and/or gender, not take on the features of another race and/or gender
There are no mechanical rules, there is no mechanical benefitsThere is no mechanical benefit to looking like an elf either but you'd be dumb to expect a dwarf to treat you with respect. Do you just ignore this in your games too?
Nothing about appearance has any mechanical benefit/downside in any part of the game. if you make a +1,000,000 disguise check to looking like the king of a land well guess what? there is NO mechanical benefit to looking like the king, point me to where it says there is. So why would this be useful in game?
and yes you can look just like a female orc, says you can appear to be a different race and/or gender, not take on the features of another race and/or gender
Dwarf is doing a little thing called roleplay. him just treating you without respect isn't a mechanical effect at all.
If you somehow managed to make the strawman disguise check there, Chapter 5 of the GM guide as a handy bit of information on this. Check Story rewards most importantly.
Really I don't understand why you are so hung up on it not having clarifying rules on this. Its like you are morally opposed to clarification on it, possibly because you might have some sort of stake in it acting as the "Iwin" power as i described.