Think Different: A Look at Some Changes to the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Wednesday, July 30, 2014

Apologies in advance, as this blog entry is going to get a bit arcane. No, I don't mean it's not rechargeable by a Divine spellcaster—I mean this article is meant for Pathfinder Adventure Card Game rules enthusiasts. I'm going to define the differences between the PACG rules a year ago and the ones we have now, possibly in excruciating detail. You've been warned.

When we set out to design the new Skull & Shackles sets and the Class Decks, we had heard many players pointing out ways our game could improve. We were faced with a fork in the road. Choosing Path One meant leaving everything alone and forging ahead with what we had created as is. That was the path of least resistance, requiring very little explanation, but keeping in place some things that were confusing about our game. Choosing Path Two required us to change those things and explain them in a blog like this one. I think you folks are good enough pathfinders that you know which one we picked.

So, yeah, some things are going to look a little different from now on. These are not the kinds of things we're going to issue errata for; everything works pretty much the same as it did in Rise of the Runelords. But the new cards will look just a bit different. Here are some of the highlights.

To start out, let's look at two versions of the weapon Longbow: the first one is from Rise of the Runelords, and the second is from the Ranger Class Deck.

There are some minor differences here. The first is the replacement of the phrase "roll your Dexterity or Ranged die" with "use your Dexterity or Ranged skill." In Skull & Shackles, "skill" always refers to your base die (say, a d8) plus any skill feats or bonuses you might have. If Harsk is using the Longbow with Ranged: Dexterity d8+2, and he has two +1 skill feats in Dexterity, his Ranged skill is d8+4. The concept of the "unmodified" die is also gone: when we say "die" now, we always mean just the die. So if Harsk is using the Longbow, and he has Strength: d6 and one +1 skill feat in Strength, adding the Strength die to his Ranged skill means he adds the d6 and ignores the feat, just as before. The wording is more specific, but the math hasn't changed at all.

A subtler change on the card is replacing the word "a" with "any" in the last power. This makes it a bit more clear that it applies to checks other than your own.

Okay, now for a couple of spells. Here's the Runelords version of Force Missile and the new one from the Wizard Class Deck.

There are two big changes here. Most visibly, the recharge box is gone. Players seemed to get confused by the recharge box, including figuring out when to apply that power, so we built the recharge power into the powers box. With luck, people won't be baffled by that any more.

Reading the text, you'll note that the power no longer tells you to apply the Force trait. That's because this rule is clearly stated in the rulebook:

Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one. As part of this action, you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that defines the skill you are going to use. When you play a card that does this, add that card's traits to the check.

So Force Missile still adds the Force trait to your combat check (along with the Magic, Arcane, Attack, and Basic traits)—it just doesn't spell it out in a way that suggests it's somehow different from those other traits.

Now let's compare two scary ladies: the Hook Mountain Hag from "The Hook Mountain Massacre" and the Sea Hag from the Skull & Shackles Base Set.

In Runelords, things that happened "before the encounter" really happened during the encounter, after you had a chance to evade the card. In Skull & Shackles, there’s a new step called "acting," which includes everything that happens after you choose not to evade a card up until the encounter is resolved. Things can happen before you act, while you act, and after you act. Here’s the rulebook text on the "before you act" step.

Apply Any Effects That Happen Before You Act. If any powers on the card you're encountering happen before you act, they take effect at this time. You may also use powers or cards that state they can be used before you act.

Another change here is replacing the phrase "spells with the Attack trait" with "spells that have the Attack trait." The meaning of "with" was not clear enough: did it mean you couldn't play a spell that itself had the Attack trait, or did it mean you couldn't play a spell in conjunction with any card that gave the Attack trait to the check? The new wording makes it clear that the intent is the former.

A side note on henchman cards: The rule about henchmen automatically allowing you to close a location after you defeat one is gone from the rulebook. If a henchman allows you to close the location when it's defeated, it says so in its power; if not, it doesn't. (I expect you won't like the ones that don't. They're called Curses, and we'll leave them for another day.)

Here are two boons: the ally Jakardros Sovark from "The Hook Mountain Massacre" and the item Ring of the Beasts from "The Wormwood Mutiny".

In Runelords, you'd occasionally see a card that helped a combat check "against" a monster. That term "against" was never defined, but it benefited from some definition, because it could also apply to checks of other sorts. Now, the new phrase "check against a card" applies to any check the card mandates. The rule is:

If a card refers to a check against another card, that refers to any check required by that card, whether it's a check to defeat, a check to acquire, a check to recharge, or any other check.

Here's the Collapsed Ceiling, a card I kinda wish we didn't put in Runelords, because it needed rules support that the game did not provide. That's been solved, so you'll see a lot of cards like Goose in the Rigging from "The Wormwood Mutiny".

It was frustrating not to be able to answer all the questions associated with Collapsed Ceiling. For example, it wasn't clear what happened when you had two faceup cards on the deck or when something suggested you shuffle one of them into the deck. The Skull & Shackles rules now tell you how to handle cards like this.

Faceup Cards: Sometimes a card is left faceup on the top of the location deck (for example, most barriers with the Task trait work this way). The card is still in the deck, but it can only be shuffled into the deck when the condition that caused it to be left faceup on the deck has been resolved. If such a card tells you that you must encounter it on your first exploration on a turn, then after that exploration, ignore it for the purpose of additional explorations that turn; however, it still counts as the top card of the deck for any other purpose. If multiple cards are left faceup on the same deck, you may place them in any order and encounter them in that order.

Finally, let's look at one of the most bizarre cards in Runelords: the Runeforged Weapons loot card from "Sins of the Saviors".

You see that word SPECIAL? You see it twice on the card? Protip: That's a sign that a game designer hasn't made up his mind what he's doing. This card quite honestly had no idea what it was. That's because we designed it before we had the rules tech to make it work. But now we do. If Skull & Shackles had existed before Runelords, Runeforged Weapons would certainly have been a support card. Support cards are a new type of card that's neither bane nor boon. We talked about them in our last Skull & Shackles preview; basically, their job is to sit on the table and affect the game. This is what Runeforged Weapons might look like if it was issued today.

We've also made a number of less obvious changes to the rulebook—reorganizing things and rewriting things—that make it clearer and easier to use than the Rise of the Runelords rulebook. We recommend that you use it as your main rules reference even if you're still playing Rise of the Runelords—just ignore all that stuff about ships.

Download the Skull & Shackles Rulebook PDF here!(6.2 MB zip/PDF)

Mike Selinker
Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Adventure Card Guild Class Decks Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Skull & Shackles
101 to 107 of 107 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Sovereign Court

The more variety in the fonts, the more likely I am to not have dice that look 100% identical to them, and that's a great thing! Honestly though, I'd rather have a 0. To me, the only time a 10 belongs on a 10-sided die is when it also has 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and 00 on the other sides. Luckily, overall I couldn't care less because I don't even use the dice that come with the game (Dragon dice and Silver Gryphon dice, can't be beat)

The Exchange

Vic Wertz wrote:


The Base Set arrived in our warehouse today (it has already been shipping to distributors, and to Gen Con). And I've finally seen the dice. The good news: there is a "10" on the d10 instead of a 0. The not-so-good news: they did not change the font on the other dice, and indeed introduced a brand-new one for the d10. So, 5 dice, 4 fonts. (Yeah, I know 98% of people won't notice, and I should just shut my yap about it...)

And the really good news: everything else looks fabulous.

Hey Vic, bundling opportunity... (I am in sales, I always look for bundling opportunities) I personally am starting to collect the Q-workshop dice line every other week when I go down to my FLGS for PFS night. Maybe slap the PFACG logo sticker on some of the Pathfinder Dice sets and market them for sale with the core sets as they come out.

I don't have a RotRL or S&S set yet, but definitely would if they were oh, say, 20% off? :)

Unless the next set after WotR is Second Darkness or Serpent's Skull this scenario would work nicely for me. Maybe let me know what is after WotR so I don't accidentally buy them ahead of time?

The Exchange

Here is a thing that causes confusion for some folks I know. Keep in mind, these are not players of Pathfinder or any iteration of D&D back through the ages, their sole experience with die-rolling mechanics and nomenclature is through PACG.

Specifically, the nomenclature"1dx-1" whether it be a d4, d6, or whatever.

In RPG-world, we recognize that to mean "roll the die, subtract one, minimum of 1".

The PACG-only folks to this take this to mean that if you are to take 1d4-1 damage from a card, you can actually take 0, 1, 2, or 3 damage.

I haven't yet looked extensively, but is there any clarification on this rule in the new book? Is there a minimum of 1 on this roll in the card game as there is in the RPG?

Sovereign Court

No there is not, however some cards do specify a minimum for their powers, typically characters and allies that bump a check by the adventure number have a minimum of 1.


Zandari wrote:

Here is a thing that causes confusion for some folks I know. Keep in mind, these are not players of Pathfinder or any iteration of D&D back through the ages, their sole experience with die-rolling mechanics and nomenclature is through PACG.

Specifically, the nomenclature"1dx-1" whether it be a d4, d6, or whatever.

In RPG-world, we recognize that to mean "roll the die, subtract one, minimum of 1".

The PACG-only folks to this take this to mean that if you are to take 1d4-1 damage from a card, you can actually take 0, 1, 2, or 3 damage.

I haven't yet looked extensively, but is there any clarification on this rule in the new book? Is there a minimum of 1 on this roll in the card game as there is in the RPG?

I've always played it as no minimum. So when the Scout deals you 1d4-1 Ranged Combat damage before the encounter, he might deal you 0, 1, 2 or 3 Ranged Combat damage.

As far as "in the rules", this is what I find:

RotR Rulebook p6 wrote:
Sometimes the shorthand includes a “+” or “–” and a number listed after the die, meaning that you add that number to, or subtract it from, the total of the roll (not each individual die rolled). So 2d4+2 means to roll 2 4-sided dice, total them together, and then add 2. No matter how many penalties are applied to a die roll, the result can’t be reduced below 0.

So the minimum is pretty clearly 0.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zandari wrote:
I haven't yet looked extensively, but is there any clarification on this rule in the new book? Is there a minimum of 1 on this roll in the card game as there is in the RPG?

As an aside, the "minimum of 1" rule you cite for the RPG is only partially correct. For damage, the minimum is 1 point of *nonlethal* damage. So, if your damage is 1d4 - 1 and roll a 2 on the die, you deal 1 point of lethal damage, but if you roll a 1, you deal 1 point of nonlethal damage instead.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
NOG the Demoralizer wrote:
Hey Vic, bundling opportunity... (I am in sales, I always look for bundling opportunities) I personally am starting to collect the Q-workshop dice line every other week when I go down to my FLGS for PFS night. Maybe slap the PFACG logo sticker on some of the Pathfinder Dice sets and market them for sale with the core sets as they come out.

Marketing the Q-Workshop dice to PACG players isn't in the cards—people would ask what the extra two dice are for!

101 to 107 of 107 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Card Game / General Discussion / Paizo Blog: Think Different: A Look at Some Changes to the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion