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Reign of Winter Player's Guide

Monday, February 11, 2013

This week subscriptions are starting to leave the warehouse, and included in this month's shipment is the first installment of the Reign of Winter Adventure Path! As GMs get their hands on "The Snows of Summer," we have a little something for all the players eager to dive into the campaign, the Reign of Winter Player's Guide. Pop on over to your downloads and get your hands on this web supplement designed to help you build a character for this Adventure Path. Inside you will find character advice, a glimpse at the village you start off in, a cold weather primer so you know what you’re getting into, and a handful of additional options for your player characters.

So don't wait! Grab your copy of the Reign of Winter Player's Guide now!

Adam Daigle
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Paizo Employee Creative Director
Pendagast wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

Explain a reason/situation where a Winter witch wouldn't go onto the the PrC.

The witch with the winter witch archetype decides to multiclass into oracle and instead decides to be a winter witch mystic theurge.

Hmmmmm.....

Other than that, it's pretty much almost all of them PrCing when they can?

There's a Winter Oracle too (from what I hear) a witch/oracle would a a bunt load of spells, healing... but a lot less of the higher level spells, hexes and other toys... hmmm I would have to look at it once I get people of the north...is that where the winter oracle is? or is it hiding in the irissen book?

First off... if you want to be a full-on winter witch, then yes, that's a decision you make at 1st level. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Second off... you asked for one reason. There are as many reasons as there are gamer personalities and character goals as to why one would do the archetype but not want to take the prestige class.
Paizo Employee Creative Director
magnuskn wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
1) Avoiding accusations of base class bloat, which is something that we're VERY close to already, if not past.

A bit OT, but: I'd personally seriously prefer more new base classes ( Swashbuckler! ) vs. tons of prestige classes and a gazillion archetypes. New base classes from Paizo have turned out to be much more innovative than the glut of archetypes and prestige classes, the latter of which have the additional problem that you have to take a base class until normally level six and fulfill sometimes stiff prerequisites to even get there.

So you have my vote for a few more base classes. When I first heard about the base classes for the APG some years ago, I thought "WTH is this stuff?" But aside from the Summoner, all of them turned out to be a great, innovative additions to the game ( and the latter I am more against because the unnecessary complexity of the class. And because the Eidolon is creepy as hell.^^ ). So, again, my vote for more base classes.

And a Swashbuckler base class, please. Without any sneak attack, pretty please. ^^

I put it to you that the new base classes are innovative BECAUSE we've avoided making a glut of them. What you're asking for, with more base classes, would undermine one of the things you say is valuable about them.

It'd be nice to not further infest the GOBS and GOBS of archetypes for a few years, eh?
Dark Archive

back to the actual player's guide....

the PTARMIGAN familiar has a fly speed but no listing under skills for Fly.

Could be Fly +2 = +0 ranks, +2 Dex +4 Tiny -4 poor
Dark Archive

the puffin familiar Stealth not listed, could be 14
Stealth +14 = +0 ranks, +2 Dex +12 Diminutive
Paizo Employee Developer

We typically don't list total skill bonus on skills with no ranks, but in the case of the ptarmigan I can see where having the Fly bonus could be helpful despite the simple calculation.

Have you SEEN a ptarmigan fly?? No skill ranks for you!
Liberty's Edge

As an outspoken critic of the Shattered Star player's guide, I wanted to say that this one is fantastic. The campaign traits could be better, maybe in a few months I will email you guys a few of my own designs for WotR you could use for free if ya wanted.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
I put it to you that the new base classes are innovative BECAUSE we've avoided making a glut of them. What you're asking for, with more base classes, would undermine one of the things you say is valuable about them.

I think I must disagree with that. The innovation came in a lot of ways by mostly ignoring the additional base classes from past editions and going with really new ideas, like the Alchemist and the Inquisitor. The Cavalier is easily the most mundane of the new classes and that is because there were prior versions of the archetype running around in past editions.

I guess that I am actually now argueing against a Swashbuckler base class with what I just said, but in this case, go with the mundane. Pretty please. Having a class which actually represents that archetype appropiately ( I personally feel the prior attempts, like the swashbuckler rogue archetype and the one-handed fighter archetype, did not work out that well ) would vastly outweigh a bit of class dilution, IMO.

Just a thought, why does northern ancestry get cold resistance 2, when none of the base races from there who live there (like snow caster elves) get that? I mean, if Im on vacation in heldren from the crown of the world, popped down via an elf gate, the guy who has probably never BEEN in the cold is going to do better in the cold than me?

Im confused? I like the trait, it just doesnt match up with actual inhabitants.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And doesn't cold resistance make you completely immune to most cold weather hazards?
magnuskn wrote:
And doesn't cold resistance make you completely immune to most cold weather hazards?

At resist 5, sure (5/6ths resistance is equally as good on a 1d6 variable). Resist 2 means that it takes even longer to kill you off.

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:
I guess that I am actually now argueing against a Swashbuckler base class with what I just said, but in this case, go with the mundane. Pretty please. Having a class which actually represents that archetype appropiately ( I personally feel the prior attempts, like the swashbuckler rogue archetype and the one-handed fighter archetype, did not work out that well ) would vastly outweigh a bit of class dilution, IMO.

Cad fighter archetype (Ultimate Combat) makes a pretty good swashbuckler...

A skirmisher urban ranger (Advanced Player's Guide) can also work...
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonchess Player wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I guess that I am actually now argueing against a Swashbuckler base class with what I just said, but in this case, go with the mundane. Pretty please. Having a class which actually represents that archetype appropiately ( I personally feel the prior attempts, like the swashbuckler rogue archetype and the one-handed fighter archetype, did not work out that well ) would vastly outweigh a bit of class dilution, IMO.

Cad fighter archetype (Ultimate Combat) makes a pretty good swashbuckler...

A skirmisher urban ranger (Advanced Player's Guide) can also work...

I disagree on both. I personally see a Swashbuckler as an urban agility based melee class and both of those do not fulfill those prerequisites.

If you want to see what I am personally looking for, here's my own take on how I'd build the class.

I'd just love to see what Paizos official take on the class would be. Given how interesting most of their new classes have turned out, it would probably surprise me completely.

Also, GMs accept official classes easier than homebrewn ones. ^^
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I guess that I am actually now argueing against a Swashbuckler base class with what I just said, but in this case, go with the mundane. Pretty please. Having a class which actually represents that archetype appropiately ( I personally feel the prior attempts, like the swashbuckler rogue archetype and the one-handed fighter archetype, did not work out that well ) would vastly outweigh a bit of class dilution, IMO.

Cad fighter archetype (Ultimate Combat) makes a pretty good swashbuckler...

A skirmisher urban ranger (Advanced Player's Guide) can also work...

I disagree on both. I personally see a Swashbuckler as an urban agility based melee class and both of those do not fulfill those prerequisites.

Detailed rebuttal:

Spoiler:
Cad (fighter archetype) wrote:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A cad is not proficient with medium armor, heavy armor, or tower shields.

Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Stealth (Dex) are class skills for a cad.

Dirty Maneuvers (Ex): At 2nd level, a cad becomes skilled at deceiving and discomfiting his opponents. The cad gains a +1 bonus on disarm, dirty trick, and steal combat maneuver checks. The cad also gains a +1 bonus to CMD when attacked with the disarm, dirty trick, and steal combat maneuvers. These bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels after 2nd (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level). This ability replaces bravery.

Light armor, some added Dex-based and social skills, and bonuses on flashy combat maneuvers. Take Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise (you do have a 13+ Int for a canny urban character, don't you?), some Improved/Greater [Maneuver] feats, and Weapon Finesse (you are using a rapier, right?) with some of your fighter bonus feats. Done.

Skirmisher (ranger archetype) wrote:

Hunter's Tricks: At 5th level, a skirmisher ranger learns the use of hunter's tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can't be retrained. A ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once. This ability replaces the ranger's spells class feature. Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.

The following is a list of hunter tricks and their effects.

Aiding Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits a creature with an attack. The next ally who makes an attack against the target creature before the start of the ranger's next turn gains a +2 circumstance bonus on that attack roll.

...

Catfall (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when he falls 20 or more feet, ignoring the first 20 feet of the fall when calculating the falling damage. If the ranger takes no damage from the fall, he does not fall prone.

Chameleon Step (Ex): The ranger can move up to twice his speed as a move action. The ranger does not take any penalty on Stealth checks for movement during this move. This move provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

...

Deft Stand (Ex): The ranger can spend a move action to stand up without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Distracting Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls for 1 round.

Hateful Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he makes an attack against one of his favored enemies. The ranger doubles the threat range of his weapon for this attack. This does not stack with other abilities that increase a weapon's threat range.

...

Hobbling Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack's land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds.

Quick Climb (Ex): The ranger can climb at his full speed as a move action without penalty.

...

Rattling Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.

Second Chance Strike (Ex): When he misses with a melee attack, the ranger may reroll his attack at a –5 penalty. Using this ability is an immediate action.

...

Stag's Leap (Ex): As a free action, the ranger can attempt a running jump without moving 10 feet before the jump.

Surprise Shift (Ex): The ranger can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Tangling Attack (Ex): The ranger can use this attack as a free action when he makes an attack. If the attack hits, the target is entangled for 1 round.

...

Upending Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as a free action just before he makes a melee attack. If the attack hits, he may make a free trip combat maneuver against the target.

Vengeance Strike (Ex): The ranger can use this trick as an immediate action when an enemy adjacent to him hits an ally with a melee or ranged attack. The ranger can make a single melee attack at his highest base attack bonus against the creature who attacked his ally.

Urban Ranger (ranger archetype) wrote:

Urban Ranger: At 1st level, an urban ranger adds Disable Device and Knowledge (local) to his list of class skills and removes Handle Animal and Knowledge (nature) from his list of class skills.

Favored Community (Ex): At 3rd level, the urban ranger forms a bond with a community. While inside the limits of this community, he gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (local), Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks. An urban ranger traveling through his favored community leaves no trail and cannot be tracked (although he may leave a trail if he so desires).

At 8th level, and every five levels thereafter, an urban ranger may select an additional favored community. In addition, at each such interval, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in any one favored community (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2.

For the purposes of this ability, a community is any settlement consisting of 100 or more individuals. The community may be larger than this minimum. Outlying farms, fields, and houses are not considered part of a community. This ability replaces favored terrain.

Trapfinding (Ex): At 3rd level, an urban ranger can find and disable traps, as the rogue class feature of the same name. This ability replaces endurance.

Push Through (Ex): At 7th level, an urban ranger is never slowed by difficult terrain in his favored communities. In addition, he can move through the space occupied by local citizens as if they were allies. This does not apply to creatures intent on harming the ranger. Areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect him. This replaces woodland stride.

Rangers already have plenty of Skill Ranks and can invest in some cross-class social skills. Take the Two-Weapon Combat Style and fight rapier/jutte (or spend a feat on Exotic Weapon (Swordbreaker Dagger)). Take Weapon Finesse and consider Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, and Improved/Greater Disarm. Select Hunter's Tricks as desired. Done.

If this is about "the published classes/archetypes don't give me exactly/only what I want without me having to make choices/plan/take certain feats," you are bound to be disappointed. Classes in Pathfinder are deliberately broad in scope (i.e., fighters covering archers, foot soldiers, gladiators, knights/squires, etc.), allowing multiple concepts to fit within their framework; archetypes narrow that scope, but are still designed to allow some flexibility within the more specific concept (i.e., phalanx soldier using any polearm instead of just the longspear).

The swashbuckler detailed in the link you provided is boring and unbalanced, mostly focused on stacking multiple bonuses to weapon attacks/damage (Really? +1 for every two levels to damage? Cha bonus on attack rolls? Re-rolling missed attacks?), AC (+1 dodge bonus at 2nd, +2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, +4 at 20th; counts as Dodge feat for pre-requisites and stacks with the Dodge feat?), and Acrobatics skill (+1 insight bonus for every two levels and +5 to maintain balance if hit and move at full speed without the -5 to checks). That's not a swashbuckler, it's a wuxia ninja/martial artist with a slightly different weapon selection.

WHAT does this have to do with this thread?
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Um, yeah.

Would you consider spoilering that DCP?
It takes up a chunk of page space & really has nothing to do with the RoW PG.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:
WHAT does this have to do with this thread?

Basically a tangent about class/archetype bloat and magnuskn wanting a new "swashbuckler" full BAB base class or archetype, when (IMO) that concept can be already be covered using (at least) the two approaches above. My second post is a more detailed version of the first, with specific ways to realize the concept and a critique of the homebrew base class in the link he provided.

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

Um, yeah.

Would you consider spoilering that DCP?
It takes up a chunk of page space & really has nothing to do with the RoW PG.

Spoiler added.

Before I pop into my criticisms, I want to point out that the reason I am posting this at all is because this a good Player's Guide... I just want to give some feed back. I also want to take a moment to honestly thank you guys for putting out a free product to support the games I run. It really helps.

My first comment would be that I really miss having the ability to buy a five pack of printed copies of these suckers. It was REALLY nice to be able to hand them out to players. Perhaps just not enough people bought them?

Next. There seems to be an awful lot of time spent on describing why there needs to be spoilers in this type of product and why you as a GM should deal with it or edit your own dang Player's Guide! Interestingly the majority of spoilers in the product are held in this section warning about why this product exists and why there needs to be spoilers. WAY too much time on this. Next time try to edit yourself down to one paragraph on the need and one paragraph of the actual spoilers (if they are actually needed).

Which brings up what spoilers are actually needed. Now, I have to preface this with the fact that I have not read the adventures so I can't know as well as the Paizo folks what is actually needed. However, my guess is that the two points needed are 1) this adventure will not stick around in the town it begins in. You will travel a lot and when you do... 2) It is going to get cold. I am not sure there is a need to tell us of Baba Yaga's involvement or that there is planar travel or even that this takes place in Irresen rather than a vague point in the North.

Next up is character advice. This changed from a list of each class and how they can fit in (Fighters can be found anywhere, etc. etc.) to more generalized but relevant information. I applaud this change. I did see a complaint up thread about the lack of info on what favored enemies should be taken, but it was there... maybe call it out a little more next time? (low: animals, fey & humans; Mid: giants & magical beasts; high: outsiders, undead and a few dragons).

Traits - I really like the ones you have, but they seem a little sparse. I would have liked to see more. They did inspire me though. For example, Players are notoriously contrary and if you tell them this is going to be taking place in the north and make a character that fits there you are likely to have at least one in a group who is fixated on the Qadiran fire mage and doesn't care how they are living in a Taldan town or that it will be in the North. I think that is an opportunity. Another would be for people playing odd races. Perhaps a few for native Taldans who are going for love of country? Anyway... I think there is a lot that can be cut (1 page of warning of spoilers & reprint of material from other sources).

Heldren - This is the other area I felt was pretty sparse. I would have liked to see a little more on the town and it's inhabitants... things that the people who live there would know. I get that you are not trying to get people attached to the location though.

Cold Weather Primer - Perfect. Short and to the point but also hammers home the fact that this is moving north into the cold.

Additional Class Options - This is exactly the type of thing I like to see in a players guide. Until I see how much is just reprints. Point to locations of good choices like the winter witch but unless your goal was to say there needs to be at least one winter witch per party (and I missed that?) then this seemed excessive. Now, if it had been a whole new Prestige Class and/or archetype that would have been exciting. My suggestion in the future would be several new archetypes. Would be fun... but a lot more work, so maybe not the best choice for a free product.

Anyway... overall a good product. Just keep warning down to small snippets, make a short list to yourself of what needs to be conveyed and keep spoilers only to that. Keep down the repeat material from elsewhere (but lists of locations for good stuff would be fine and significantly shorter).

Sean Mahoney
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonchess Player wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

Well, you can always add your opinions about the class in the thread where I posted it. I admit we are getting way off-topic here. But, yeah, the class would also work very well for most acrobatics focused characters. My inspirations were the more fancyful films of swashbuckling. And the damage bonuses are not unbalanced, DPR calculations bear that out. Anyway, any further discussion please in the thread I linked!

<wrenches thread back on-topic>
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean Mahoney wrote:
Next up is character advice. This changed from a list of each class and how they can fit in (Fighters can be found anywhere, etc. etc.) to more generalized but relevant information. I applaud this change. I did see a complaint up thread about the lack of info on what favored enemies should be taken, but it was there... maybe call it out a little more next time? (low: animals, fey & humans; Mid: giants & magical beasts; high: outsiders, undead and a few dragons).

That was me and you are misquoting me. I specifically called out advice for favored enemies as having remained in the Player's Guide, while lamenting the lack of detailed write-ups for the other classes and races, which was still present in Carrion Crown and prior APs.

Grand Lodge

Good review, Sean. It was well-written and I agree with most of it. I especially like the way you call out the things you think need improvement without being nasty.

I suspect that the death of the multi-packs, and the hardcopy of the players' guides in general, was a matter of price point. Even if they sold every copy they produced, I suspect Paizo lost money on the old price of $2 per hardcopy. The SD and LoF guides were added to the "companion" line at $10 an $11, but IMO those guides were weaker and seemed artificially padded, and were probably more than a player would want to pay for a creation guide. Paizo may have to absorb the cost and development time to make the free pdf's, but I think it makes for a better product which can be easily picked up by any GM or player.

My only suggested tweak would be a printer-friendly version. I joked about the amount of cyan above, but I seriously had to run out to buy another cartridge in the midst of printing the guide.

And I'm also in favour of the end of the long list of why every class and race is suited for the AP - it kept growing with every new hardcover, and is less necesary now that there is so much campaign support material.
Sovereign Court Developer
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sean Mahoney wrote:

Before I pop into my criticisms, I want to point out that the reason I am posting this at all is because this a good Player's Guide... I just want to give some feed back. I also want to take a moment to honestly thank you guys for putting out a free product to support the games I run. It really helps.

*snip*

Thanks for the feedback, Sean. This kind of thing is really helpful us, and we appreciate you taking the time to let us know your thoughts.

I wanted to address a couple of your specific points, however, and let you know the reasons behind including those items in the Player's Guide.

First, the village of Heldren. Heldren gets a full gazetteer in Pathfinder #67; it's purpose in the Player's Guide is to give players a feel for the location where the adventure starts - but with the sort of general information a player would know, rather than full information on the town and its inhabitants that is better suited for the GM. Also, by keeping the info in the Player's Guide purposefully vague, it doesn't tie the hands of a GM who might want to make changes to Heldren for his own campaign.

Secondly, the reprinted information. Reign of Winter draws on a variety of published Paizo sources for thematic elements, from prestige classes to spells to new monsters. It's hard to have a winter- and Baba Yaga-themed AP without winter witches, for example. But we didn't want to force people to have to buy 6 or 7 other books just to run the AP (though of course, people should feel free to buy those books if they want them!). Pathfinder #67 also includes a "Reign of Winter Toolkit" containing more reprinted information for the GM to use during the AP. Obviously, the items reprinted in the Player's Guide are more for players that night be interested in using some of theses rules. But the point of both of these "reprint" sections is to give GMs (and players) all of the extra information they need to run the AP in one place, without buying a lot of extra books.

Thanks again for your feedback!
Silver Crusade

I'm not arguing, exactly, but using up pages reprinting existing information kind of cuts against the subscription model. It seems like, if this information is absolutely essential to AP, and you wanted to make sure everyone has it, why not a web post?

One of the reasons I like the APs (instead of regular modules) is that they contain new articles, fiction, etc., so I have something I can use even if I never get around to running the adventure. Reprinting old material, though... while I can see how it could be useful to someone new, means just wasted pages for regular customers.
uriel222 wrote:

I'm not arguing, exactly, but using up pages reprinting existing information kind of cuts against the subscription model. It seems like, if this information is absolutely essential to AP, and you wanted to make sure everyone has it, why not a web post?

One of the reasons I like the APs (instead of regular modules) is that they contain new articles, fiction, etc., so I have something I can use even if I never get around to running the adventure. Reprinting old material, though... while I can see how it could be useful to someone new, means just wasted pages for regular customers.

Really? you own every book? WOW.

Ive been a regular customer since 2008. I dont own ALL those books. I also find it very useful to have the most important stuff pertinent to the campaign, condensed in one area rather than having 10 books to look through. I already hate having to look up a feat because I can't remember which book it's in. So when you are trying to keep a group entertained, this is helpful.

I did go out and buy people of the north and eventually the irrisen book it's self, just BECAUSE of this AP, but that doesn't mean I find the stuff redundant.
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
uriel222 wrote:

I'm not arguing, exactly, but using up pages reprinting existing information kind of cuts against the subscription model. It seems like, if this information is absolutely essential to AP, and you wanted to make sure everyone has it, why not a web post?

One of the reasons I like the APs (instead of regular modules) is that they contain new articles, fiction, etc., so I have something I can use even if I never get around to running the adventure. Reprinting old material, though... while I can see how it could be useful to someone new, means just wasted pages for regular customers.

I've been an a AP subscriber for a long while now, but I like having the non-rulebook information all in the one place. There is only a tiny amount of reprinted information contained in the guide and book but it is all relevant to the AP at hand. You still get your money's worth when you buy People of the North, because there's more to that book that a prestige class or familiar option. The more tools players and GMs have in their hands to make a thematically unified AP the better.

As to free web enhancements, those still cost money even if it's 90% reprinted material. Since someone will still need to do layout, editing etc. We already get a free player's guide. Expecting a free GM's guide reprinting material from book s you could be paying for seems slightly presumptuous.

there is only about 2 or 3 things I have resented paying for after the fact, that I bought from paizo.

1 of them was a TPP.

Pathfinder material: Irrisen... i wish i didnt buy it, but it's only 10 bucks.
Shattered Star AP (but technically even though I was waiting for THIS AP to come out... I got a lot of info about the Gray maidens out of it AND my AP % off allowed me to buy several other things in the last few months....so technically if you add it all up I got the AP for free.
anyone want to buy mint shattered Star AP??

Personally I dont like Shattered Star, RotRL or CotCT. Buuuut how would I have known that? And like I said my % off has extended to minis, PDFs and hardcover rule books all over the place, so technically I havent spent a dime on the stuff I ended up not likening. It just all evened out.
Silver Crusade

I never said I own all the books, but I do have a lot. My point was, by deliberately reprinting old material you:

- Encourage new players
- Discourage them (slightly) from buying related source books with the original material
- Annoy subscribers who want new material
- Set up a precedent which, however slightly, discourages subscription in favour of just purchasing the APs you like.

i dont see how you discourage subscription... and people who want new material still get new material. just that 100% of the pages arent new material, unless you dont own all the books, and then, it is new material...

Personally, IMO, remove the fiction in the back. but thats my opinion.
Silver Crusade

Buying the same content over and over again is a disincentive to subscribe, even if it does make it more "convenient".

it's not the same content, most of the book is new, and it can be totally new if you dont have the other books. Plus there is the 15% other paizo material. there is plenty incentive to subscribe.
Silver Crusade
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
As to free web enhancements, those still cost money even if it's 90% reprinted material. Since someone will still need to do layout, editing etc. We already get a free player's guide. Expecting a free GM's guide reprinting material from book s you could be paying for seems slightly presumptuous.

I understand what you're saying, but my point is, if the sole reason you're reprinting material is that the AP is unplayable without it, then I'd think Paizo would be better served by posting that as a web post, rather than in print (again). And this isn't a web "enhancement", it's a web republish. Why would you need a new editorial pass, or even more than a trivial "layout"? This is pure CTRL-C CTRL-V.

As for presumptuous, isn't a "free GM's guide reprinting material from book s you could be paying for" exactly what they're sticking into the AP? Rather than expect GM's to buy the sourcebooks with the material in it, they are including everything relevant in the AP itself.

Now, I don't judge my purchases based solely on page count, but if this is going to be the new standard going forward, then from a purely quantitative standpoint, modern APs won't be giving as much new content as prior ones.

What if the next AP includes the write up from the Inner Sea World Guide on the world wound, in case the GM is missing that book?
Silver Crusade
Pendagast wrote:
it's not the same content, most of the book is new, and it can be totally new if you dont have the other books. Plus there is the 15% other paizo material. there is plenty incentive to subscribe.

Yes, I agree that there is plenty of reason to be a subscriber (which is why I am). My point is, there is a difference between ALL new and MOSTLY new.

Paizo Employee Creative Director
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uriel222 wrote:

Now, I don't judge my purchases based solely on page count, but if this is going to be the new standard going forward, then from a purely quantitative standpoint, modern APs won't be giving as much new content as prior ones.

What if the next AP includes the write up from the Inner Sea World Guide on the world wound, in case the GM is missing that book?

It's not a precedent. The contents that are actually reprinted in the Adventure Path itself are from non-Adventure Path books, like Inner Sea Magic. If you have a subscription to EVERY book line, then some of that stuff will be reprints for you, but if you only subscribe to the Adventure Path, then very little (perhaps none) will be reprints for you.

The next AP will not include the Inner Sea World Guide writeup on the Worldwound. Nor will it include the contents of the 64 page book about the Worldwound coming out later this year, or the contents of the 256 page Mythic Adventures hardcover. It WILL have full reprints of new monsters we use from those books as they appear in the adventure, but that's nothing new.
Sovereign Court
James Jacobs wrote:
uriel222 wrote:

Now, I don't judge my purchases based solely on page count, but if this is going to be the new standard going forward, then from a purely quantitative standpoint, modern APs won't be giving as much new content as prior ones.

What if the next AP includes the write up from the Inner Sea World Guide on the world wound, in case the GM is missing that book?

It's not a precedent. The contents that are actually reprinted in the Adventure Path itself are from non-Adventure Path books, like Inner Sea Magic. If you have a subscription to EVERY book line, then some of that stuff will be reprints for you, but if you only subscribe to the Adventure Path, then very little (perhaps none) will be reprints for you.

The next AP will not include the Inner Sea World Guide writeup on the Worldwound. Nor will it include the contents of the 64 page book about the Worldwound coming out later this year, or the contents of the 256 page Mythic Adventures hardcover. It WILL have full reprints of new monsters we use from those books as they appear in the adventure, but that's nothing new.

Goshdarnit.

Why am I saddled with reprints? What'd I do wrong?
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I am curious why the player's guide suggests cold-theme sorcerers and their ilk, when I'll suspect most of the monsters they will face will be immune (or at least resistant) to cold. Especially dragons, ice trolls, frost giants, probably the undead, etc.

I imagine a fire-themed caster would be a much better fit for this AP, no? At least from the standpoint of not being severely ineffective.
Silver Crusade

I thought the same thing. Just for fun (since I rarely get to play, grr), I made up my best approximation of Ignus from Planescape: Torment.
Paizo Employee Creative Director
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Varthanna wrote:

I am curious why the player's guide suggests cold-theme sorcerers and their ilk, when I'll suspect most of the monsters they will face will be immune (or at least resistant) to cold. Especially dragons, ice trolls, frost giants, probably the undead, etc.

I imagine a fire-themed caster would be a much better fit for this AP, no? At least from the standpoint of not being severely ineffective.

Mostly because it's thematic to play a cold-based spellcaster in an adventure featuring lots of cold themes. It's certainly more numbercrunchy to play a fire-based one, of course... and I'm not saying that's a bad thing!

There'll be plenty of foes along the way who aren't immune or resistant to cold though. And there may even be a way as the campaign progresses that cold-using characters could get an advantage over cold resistant or immune foes.
Silver Crusade
James Jacobs wrote:
And there may even be a way as the campaign progresses that cold-using characters could get an advantage over cold resistant or immune foes.

!

backs up

Whoa now... Heat Death magic might be a bit of overkill to be using on Golarion's surface, eh?

;)
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