Mythic Adventures

Do Mythic tiers contribute to character levels?

For example, if you have an ability/feat that increases with your character level, do your Mythic tiers count as well, or are they completely separate?

They are separate.

There's a supplementary character sheet in Mythic Adventures that provides a place to explain how you became a mythic character, track improvements to your character (such as the ability score bonuses for being mythic) as you gain mythic tiers, your mythic feats, the mythic spells you know, describing the mythic trials you've completed, and so on.

Trials, eh?

TRIAL BY STONE.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

There's a supplementary character sheet in Mythic Adventures that provides a place to explain how you became a mythic character, track improvements to your character (such as the ability score bonuses for being mythic) as you gain mythic tiers, your mythic feats, the mythic spells you know, describing the mythic trials you've completed, and so on.

Trials, eh?

TRIAL BY STONE.

Looks like someone is a fan of The Dark Crystal

They are separate.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.

That is one of the things I didn't like what I read from the the Mythic playtest rules, it doesn't increase your existing abilities. No caster level increase, no increase in established feats, abilities, etc.

Yes, you get new ones, but I would like it if you were actually considered '30' levels of your character, not 20 character levels and 10 Mythic tiers. I understand not increasing skill points, and even saving throws, but I feel the rest should have been increased.

But I am willing to keep an open mind and looking forward to reading the full rules and changes that were made from the playtest rules.

I'm guessing it doesn't increase existing abilities because Tiers are no longer considered an additional full "level" each. They're now only worth a "half-level" apiece. So max APL is 25, not 30. With that now being the case, I think it's fine that they don't scale existing abilities.

Tiers are no longer considered an additional full "level" each. They're now only worth a "half-level" apiece.

I hadn't heard that. Can you link to where you read it?

It's a conclusion reached from a post by James Jacobs in his "ask anything" thread. Though I believe that particular point was that a mythic tier is worth half a CR, not that they're worth half a level - the discussion came about when James off-handedly said that a 20th level character with 10 tiers is CR 25, in response to a question, and clarified that they had reassessed how much of a challenge mythic tiers represented. There is certainly a reasonable corollary to tiers only being counted as half a level for APL calculations, but that has not been explicitly stated as far as I know.

This is somewhat borne out by the fact that Jason (I believe it was in his own "ask anything" thread, but might have been in the Mythic Playtest forums) said that James had revealed something which had not been specifically revealed by the design team (the phrase "talking out of turn" springs to mind, but that may well just be me paraphrasing), which suggests that there may be more to the matter than James described.

Can you multiclass Mythic paths?

Subject to the usual caveats about "might have changed between the playtest and the version sent to the printer" there is the ability to have Dual Paths, so that a character can pick path abilities from two of the mythic paths as they go up tiers. As far as we know that is the only ability that allows anything approximating multiclassing.

It's a conclusion reached from a post by James Jacobs in his "ask anything" thread. Though I believe that particular point was that a mythic tier is worth half a CR, not that they're worth half a level - the discussion came about when James off-handedly said that a 20th level character with 10 tiers is CR 25, in response to a question, and clarified that they had reassessed how much of a challenge mythic tiers represented. There is certainly a reasonable corollary to tiers only being counted as half a level for APL calculations, but that has not been explicitly stated as far as I know.

This is somewhat borne out by the fact that Jason (I believe it was in his own "ask anything" thread, but might have been in the Mythic Playtest forums) said that James had revealed something which had not been specifically revealed by the design team (the phrase "talking out of turn" springs to mind, but that may well just be me paraphrasing), which suggests that there may be more to the matter than James described.

In a sense that is worse then. When I first looked at the Mythic playtest one of the things I didn’t like about it is you didn’t feel ‘Mythic’. Sure, there were some really nice abilities, but there wasn’t any (or very little of) those uber abilities that made you feel on your way to standing among the best on different planes.

But with what JJ said on equivalent CR, that makes sense then on how I interpreted the strength of your mythic character. What doesn’t make sense though is I thought these characters would be able to challenge CRs in the 30s? Like the Four Horsemen or Arch Devils, for example. But having a power level somewhat in the area of CR 25, not sure how you would be able to do that.

But again, not making any final judgments until I can see the completed product.

In a sense that is worse then. When I first looked at the Mythic playtest one of the things I didn’t like about it is you didn’t feel ‘Mythic’. Sure, there were some really nice abilities, but there wasn’t any (or very little of) those uber abilities that made you feel on your way to standing among the best on different planes.

I'd suggest you go back to the mythic play test and draw up a character with 20 character levels and 10 mythic tiers. Now have your friends draw up characters of the same class with 0 mythic tiers. Play those characters side by side for a while and tell me you're not "among the best on different planes."

So what’s your point? That a character with 10 Mythic Tiers is more powerful than someone with 0? I would certainly hope so.

And not really here to argue with you about ‘feeling among the best on different planes’ as it’s subjective. It’s just a feeling that I had, but you are welcome to disagree.

But, barring any misunderstandings in what James was saying, being around the power level of a CR 25 with 20 character levels and 10 Mythic levels is not what I had in mind.

Can you multiclass Mythic paths?

Kinda of, but there really no need to do it in the mythic play test.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

They are separate.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.

That is one of the things I didn't like what I read from the the Mythic playtest rules, it doesn't increase your existing abilities. No caster level increase, no increase in established feats, abilities, etc.

Yes, you get new ones, but I would like it if you were actually considered '30' levels of your character, not 20 character levels and 10 Mythic tiers. I understand not increasing skill points, and even saving throws, but I feel the rest should have been increased.

But I am willing to keep an open mind and looking forward to reading the full rules and changes that were made from the playtest rules.

No your skill did not increase but some of the ability allowed you take 20 more quickly or even in stressful situations. It also increased your skill by increase your ability’s scores every other tier. You got extra hp based on path. You also could spend a mythic point to increase those skill rolls or any roll by from a d6 up to d12 even after you know you failed. My players used it often to pass skill checks they had no points in. Same for saving throws, mythic save at tier 5 basically made you immune to effect that where pass or fail. So there was no need to increase the numbers. You don't need a caster level increase when a mythic meteor swarm can one hit a most creatures. there where increase to established feats, Mythic toughness added another hp per level, and when you hit 0 hp, you gain dr 10/epic that added with any other epic dr your had. Mythic rapid shot, gave you option to added 2 extra attack to rapid shot or ignoring the -2 penalty.

The problem with increase the numbers in the game like you want breaks the game after level 20. I created a monster that is an outsider shape shifter that has 33 hit dice, and guess what it will never ever fail a save it will never ever not miss. The game math starts so break down at level 15. Because guess what it is based on 20 side dice. The dice roll it self-become irrelevant. It becomes auto fail auto passed depending on bonus, unless you roll a 1 or 20. That is why epic rules where abandoned by Wizard and not upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5 the whole system would have be reworked to support levels beyond 20.
Maybe if it was based off d30 or d40

Maybe if it was based off d30 or d40

Open ended percentile.

But it would be an entirely different game, not Pathfinder or AD&D.

KainPen wrote:

Maybe if it was based off d30 or d40

Open ended percentile.

But it would be an entirely different game, not Pathfinder or AD&D.

True That. It would be TSR's Marvel Superheros lol the frist RPG I ever played.

There is one specific thing that makes me wonder and think a lot. Like many people here, I can't wait for the full book of Mythic Adventures, and I even believe that some things in the Playtest might get changed, so right now I mostly look to focus on something else untill the book gets released.

Since I am curently playing with a friend who played D&D 3.5, we had a discussion. Since the Epic Level Handbook from 3.5 was a mess, there were many things which in mine and his opinion were just too much. And as everybody here know, that "Beyond 20th level" section in the Core Rulebook, in our opinion, would have been very nicely implemented if it were for the "Epic" levels. Skills, class abilities, everything continues normally and simple, the exception are some tips when it comes to gaining spells levels, spells etc. with that being said, we were thinking: Why wouldn't we add, besides 20 levels, another 10 levels for some kind of "Epic level". The only thing we would have to adjust is the feats. Everything else from the "Beyond 20th level" is already great. I think it would be alright. 20 levels of base class + 10 levels of prestige class or even continuing the base class for 10 levels more. Then after 30 levels, since in our opinion, the term "Mythic" seems much greater than "Epic", that it would awesome to have 20 levels of base class, then continue 10 levels through Epic rules, and finally, since the term "Mythic" starts with the "Ascension", when somebody or someone whos is a "mythic being or creature", or maybe an agent of a God or even Gods themselves, grant you powers in the form of "mythic powers", that would, after 30 levels, take you higher in becoming a legendary hero.

Taking all of this into consideration, mister Hobbun, the party would have a chance to Challenge the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse and other.

Adrian,

Yes, I understand that the original 'Epic' rules are still in the CRB and it may be something that we still use with our characters to fight those 30+ CR creatures.

However, my point was that I felt the Mythic Tiers should have covered this on their own. In that you wouldn't need to supplement the brief Epic rules in the CRB to do so.

However, as I said before, I am by no means making any final judgement on Mythic Adventures. I still plan on purchasing the book and I am sure we will be using it with our campaign. But there are just a few things I wish would have increased as well, and just didn't stop because you are taking Mythic Tiers now.

TRIAL BY STONE.

"When you can take the pebble from my hand, then it will be time for you to leave."

The Block Knight wrote:

Tiers are no longer considered an additional full "level" each. They're now only worth a "half-level" apiece.

I hadn't heard that. Can you link to where you read it?

What Chemlak said.

But with what JJ said on equivalent CR, that makes sense then on how I interpreted the strength of your mythic character. What doesn’t make sense though is I thought these characters would be able to challenge CRs in the 30s? Like the Four Horsemen or Arch Devils, for example. But having a power level somewhat in the area of CR 25, not sure how you would be able to do that.

Well, they scale the demigod enemies accordingly. The new max CR for monsters is now 30. So the most powerful (Mephistopheles, Abraxas, Nocticula, Charon, Cthulhu, etc.) will be CR 30 with all the rest of the Empryeal Lords, Demon Lords, Great Old Ones, and other Demigod nasties hanging out in the CR 26 - 29 range.

If APL20+Mythic10 = APL 25 (more or less, given CR equivalency) then taking on something at or near CR30 could become within the realm of possibility... certainly with preparation and suitable party composition, albeit a tougher than average fight. APL+4 is normally within the realm of do-able. Mythic Characters don't get Mythic by shying away from tougher than average fights.

Well, they scale the demigod enemies accordingly. The new max CR for monsters is now 30. So the most powerful (Mephistopheles, Abraxas, Nocticula, Charon, Cthulhu, etc.) will be CR 30 with all the rest of the Empryeal Lords, Demon Lords, Great Old Ones, and other Demigod nasties hanging out in the CR 26 - 29 range.

Slightly off topic, but I don't necessarily think that Cthulhu is the end-all and be-all of the Great Old Ones. Perhaps the most powerful among the handful that Lovecraft himself wrote about, maybe....but then again if you actually analyze his usage of that phrase, the "Great Old Ones" that he refers to are simply Cthulhu's race.

Kthulhu, while I do agree with you on this, this is entirely in the hands of James Jacobs who's said he'll be handling Cthulhu's stat block for Bestiary 4. James plans on Cthulhu being CR 30 and will officially be the monster with the most hit points ever in Pathfinder. Granted, I'm sure Cthulhu won't be the only Great Old One to eventually be statted at CR 30.

(Though I can't remember if he said this in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread or the actual "Bestiary 4" thread)

There's more to this. While Cthulhu is the most powerful enemy from the Lovecraft Mythos that the PCs will be able to face (until others are written up), those in the Mythos that are stronger then Cthulhu are Gods in the Pathfinder universe, which is to say that they can't even be fought by PCs.

But with what JJ said on equivalent CR, that makes sense then on how I interpreted the strength of your mythic character. What doesn’t make sense though is I thought these characters would be able to challenge CRs in the 30s? Like the Four Horsemen or Arch Devils, for example. But having a power level somewhat in the area of CR 25, not sure how you would be able to do that.

We'll be printing an entire Adventure Path that shows how a group of PCs who end up at 20th level and tier 10 can take on a CR 30 foe. ALTERNATELY: Check out the last Dungeon adventures AP, Savage Tide, wheren it's all about a group of 20th (maybe 21st) level characters taking on a CR 32 foe.

It'll be similar to how a non-mythic party of 20th level characters can take on the tarrasque. AKA: There are more ways to prepare for a climactic +5 APL encounter than merely gaining levels and tiers.

As for how it all works out—folks will simply need to be patient. And keep in mind that the playtest document for Mythic is NOT indicative of how the final rules work—the playtest did a great job at what it was supposed to do—inform us of how to adjust and change those rules to make a better product. That final (better) product, Mythic Adventures, has differences from the playtest document as a result. We feel that they're all improvements, but we're not ready to reveal what those improvements are yet. That happens more or less at Gen Con when the book and the first products that really support and rely upon that book releases.

Until then, patience is the key.

Kthulhu, while I do agree with you on this, this is entirely in the hands of James Jacobs who's said he'll be handling Cthulhu's stat block for Bestiary 4. James plans on Cthulhu being CR 30 and will officially be the monster with the most hit points ever in Pathfinder. Granted, I'm sure Cthulhu won't be the only Great Old One to eventually be statted at CR 30.

(Though I can't remember if he said this in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread or the actual "Bestiary 4" thread)

While Cthulhu is indeed being statted up for Bestiary 4... there are some non-Bestiary 4 contenders for the "most hit points" award. We'll see how it all shakes out in the end.

The Block Knight wrote:

Kthulhu, while I do agree with you on this, this is entirely in the hands of James Jacobs who's said he'll be handling Cthulhu's stat block for Bestiary 4. James plans on Cthulhu being CR 30 and will officially be the monster with the most hit points ever in Pathfinder. Granted, I'm sure Cthulhu won't be the only Great Old One to eventually be statted at CR 30.

(Though I can't remember if he said this in his "Ask James Jacobs" thread or the actual "Bestiary 4" thread)

While Cthulhu is indeed being statted up for Bestiary 4... there are some non-Bestiary 4 contenders for the "most hit points" award. We'll see how it all shakes out in the end.

Bestiary 4! This just keeps better and better! Sir James Jacobs, I was at first skeptical that the party could barely scratch a CR 30 monster, but since you are telling that the Mythic Adventures will be far more better than the playtest (sincerely, most of the things in the playtest were good in my oppinion). I also can't wait to see the Adventure Path were the PCs are taking on the CR 30 foe. I can't wait for something "Mythic" like that to happen. My character, Geleborn, son of Geletorn, is already a 15th level Fighter, and me and the GM can't wait for the Mythic Adventures to see how all this will work once I reach 20th level. And thanks a lot Sir Jacobs, and thanks to Sir Jason Bulmahn and others from Paizo for a hell of a epic job you have done by far. Pathfinder truly is one Mythic of a Roleplaying game!

AdrianGM

So, I'm finally getting around to using the Playtest rules as a way of "boosting" a three-player party to hit inside their weight class. I know I am coming WAY late to this party, but what was the final run-down of things as they have been adjusted over the playtest? I remember that Trials were scrapped, as were Mythic Weaknesses, and now the Tiers = 1/2 CR thing, which is cool.

Were there other aspects to the original playtest doc that were "adjusted" by the Consensus? I don't want to get too far from he mark and have to do a lot of re-jiggering once GenCon rolls around.

Mythic points were adjusted to 3+ tier so that they're no longer tied to an ability score (you may find this is too few points, but it seems to work okay for my group), and there were some hefty changes made to Amazing Initiative, but I can't remember what they were.

People, correct me if I'm wrong but, I haven't seen anything in the Mythic Adventures Playtest that may increase my Fighter's attack roll if he were to take the champion mythic path. I mean, since there are Archdevils and other greater Evil that have a huge AC that you mostly need critical to hit, so I'm asking will there be something in the full book of Mythic Adventures that will boost and give bonus to the attack roll of my future mythic character?

People, correct me if I'm wrong but, I haven't seen anything in the Mythic Adventures Playtest that may increase my Fighter's attack roll if he were to take the champion mythic path. I mean, since there are Archdevils and other greater Evil that have a huge AC that you mostly need critical to hit, so I'm asking will there be something in the full book of Mythic Adventures that will boost and give bonus to the attack roll of my future mythic character?

The mythic feats, ability score increases, a lot of the powers let your mythic tier be added as mythic bonus to your attack roll, and you get to added 1d6 to a 1d12 to it if you fail and want to spend mythic points. not to mention mythic version of spell buffing you more the normal. you could easily add +10 to 15 to attack roll by teir 10 in at which point you be fighting arch devils.

AdrianGM wrote:

People, correct me if I'm wrong but, I haven't seen anything in the Mythic Adventures Playtest that may increase my Fighter's attack roll if he were to take the champion mythic path. I mean, since there are Archdevils and other greater Evil that have a huge AC that you mostly need critical to hit, so I'm asking will there be something in the full book of Mythic Adventures that will boost and give bonus to the attack roll of my future mythic character?

The mythic feats, ability score increases, a lot of the powers let your mythic tier be added as mythic bonus to your attack roll, and you get to added 1d6 to a 1d12 to it if you fail and want to spend mythic points. not to mention mythic version of spell buffing you more the normal. you could easily add +10 to 15 to attack roll by teir 10 in at which point you be fighting arch devils.

Not to mention the feats that remove the negatives for iterative attacks. So you have multiple legitimate attempts to hit.