Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview #2

False. I realize English isn't your primary language, but you're reading Awesome Display incorrectly [....]

Yes English isn't my primary language and I may very well read the rules wrong. But I know enough to know there is a difference between "False" and "Wrong"? Why imply I'm lying?

"Haste is stronger than bless, prayer, and heroes' feast."
stronger than bless? sure, but bless is a 1 level spell.
Stronger than prayer or heroes' feast? It depends.
Stronger than bless and prayer? It Depends.

"I'd rather have haste than holy aura in 9 fights out of 10"
If you prefer haste, fine. But saying haste is better than all cleric spells is just silly.

"Not that there's much else useful at 8th level on the Cleric list; 7th, 8th, and 9th level suck"
Spells like Holy Word, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Holy Aura, Energy Drain and Mass heal suck? Cut down on the hyperbolw please.

"Divine power does not a CoDzilla make"
Sure it does.

"Haste is a worthwhile cast because it affects the entire party"
Does CoDzilla care?
Prayer also affects the entire party. Which is better depends on the context.

Listen I essentially agree with Ogre. You can't really comparing the The sorcerer to the Oracle.
Both classes are probably fine. I just don't like how you seem to look at this all in black and white.
There are shades of gray as well.

Why imply I'm lying?

"False" does not imply "you are lying". Furthermore, if I truly thought you were lying, I'd say so. I've said that to many other people on these forums, I'm certainly not going to spare your delicate sensibilities. In short: grow some skin.

But saying haste is better than all cleric spells is just silly.

See, now here's a lie: I never said any such thing. I said it is better than all cleric party buffs, not all cleric spells.

Spells like Holy Word, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Holy Aura, Energy Drain and Mass heal suck?

In general, yes, but you didn't read very carefully. I said the lists sucked, not the individual spells (although holy word and holy aura are incredibly situational and mass cure critical does indeed suck just like all the other mass cure spells). There are only 1-3 decent spell choices at each of levels 7, 8, and 9 in the default, Core Rulebook Cleric list. That's a shitty spell list. Sorcerers and Wizards get half a dozen decent choices at each of those levels and two or three times as many choices in total at those levels.

Sure it does.

Not by itself, it doesn't.

Prayer also affects the entire party. Which is better depends on the context.

Haste will always outperform prayer in any party with at least one physical attacker.

I just don't like how you seem to look at this all in black and white.

Uh, it's a binary state. The two spell lists are not identical; therefore, one is better and one is worse. It's theoretically possible for them to be "different but equal", I suppose, but the practicality is that they are not. Even Starcraft after a dozen patches still isn't perfectly "different but equal" (although it is close).

"grow some skin"
I'd rahter grow a beard, but I probaly need a fullplate and stoneskin as well ...and calm emotion ;-)

"now here's a lie"
So I didn't missread you? I lied? I'd better get myself a lawyer, or better yet a jester.

"Not by itself, it doesn't."
Codzilla's bread and butter is DP (thank god they nerfed it), but they have more spells.

"Haste will always outperform prayer in any party with at least one physical attacker."
No, but often.

"The two spell lists are not identical; therefore, one is better and one is worse."
No, they are just different, but if you want to play a sorcerer the Oracle is not a good option. In this Abraham is indeed wrong.

if you want to play a sorcerer the Oracle is not a good option. In this Abraham is indeed wrong.

I'll settle for that :)

Zark wrote:

if you want to play a sorcerer the Oracle is not a good option. In this Abraham is indeed wrong.

I'll settle for that :)

:-)

Zurai wrote:

Have to? No, probably not. Expected to? Hell yes. Your fellow party members will be asking you, "Dude, why did you let us die? You had all kinds of healing spells available and you chose to cast nukes instead! You could have prevented that TPK instead of causing it!".

Honestly I hope that isn't true and if it is I'm glad I don't play in that game. I understand the point you're trying to make but for other people to be yelling at the oracle for having a different idea in mind for their charcter just seems way to douchey. Sorry, that line of thinking is just a pet peeve of mine.

Seriously? Healing spells are few and far between. About 1/3 of the published classes (including the APG) have the ability to heal. In a party with only one character of those classes, they will be REQUIRED to heal sometimes. If a character has an appropriate heal and instead allows his party to die, who is "douchey"?

Misery wrote:

Zurai wrote:

Have to? No, probably not. Expected to? Hell yes. Your fellow party members will be asking you, "Dude, why did you let us die? You had all kinds of healing spells available and you chose to cast nukes instead! You could have prevented that TPK instead of causing it!".

Honestly I hope that isn't true and if it is I'm glad I don't play in that game. I understand the point you're trying to make but for other people to be yelling at the oracle for having a different idea in mind for their charcter just seems way to douchey. Sorry, that line of thinking is just a pet peeve of mine.

Seriously? Healing spells are few and far between. About 1/3 of the published classes (including the APG) have the ability to heal. In a party with only one character of those classes, they will be REQUIRED to heal sometimes. If a character has an appropriate heal and instead allows his party to die, who is "douchey"?

Gotta agree with meatrace and zurai.

Zurai wrote:

Zark wrote:

if you want to play a sorcerer the Oracle is not a good option. In this Abraham is indeed wrong.

I'll settle for that :)

:-)

See I still don't see it.

The question is what do you want from the sorcerer?

A melee caster that can do physical combat? Ok the oracle can do that -- better than the sorcerer and without multiclassing due to the ability to use armor already (and a shield). Go with the battle mystery -- easy enough. If you want a cavalier sort of melee caster you could go with the nature mystery instead.

A blaster/debuffer?

Lets go with the Heavens mystery then... oh look color spray ... and lets do it with the haunted "curse". Flame is a possibility, while blizzard can be used to do battlefield control (as can earth).

Summoner?

Anyone with full 9 level casting can do this (including the oracle).

About the only thing a sorcerer can do that an oracle can not is teleport.

The oracle has more spells known, more powers from class, earlier bonus spells, and a better stat line.

Also having the ability to heal means yes, once in a while you might cast a healing spell -- but that doesn't mean it will be during battle, and it doesn't mean you "must" be a "healer". Which was the argument at hand. Zurai stated that the Oracle "must" fill the healer role because it is "expected" of him -- which is bunk. By the same token the Bard, paladin, druid and cleric all "must" be the healer since they can do it. It's "expected" after all.

I can see that each of the classes has a lot of flavor. I just hope they are fun to play. My group has held off on playtesting for the final product. Looking forward to it!

Lets go with the Heavens mystery then... oh look color spray ... and lets do it with the haunted "curse".

You mean the Haunted curse that turns all your spells requiring material components (including color spray) two standard actions? That sounds like a brilliant idea! Let's move up within 10' of the bad guys, then wait a turn for them to gank me before I get off the disabling spell! What could possibly go wrong?

The oracle has more spells known, more powers from class, earlier bonus spells, and a better stat line.

... and worse spells overall.

Zurai stated that the Oracle "must" fill the healer role because it is "expected" of him

Please stop lying. I said that when a character has healing spells, they are expected to cover the role of a healer. I didn't say they must do it -- in fact, I explicitly said otherwise -- but if your character has healing spells and the party needs healing, you're going to be expected to heal. That's a simple fact of life. It is therefore germane to state that the Oracle is expected to fill two different roles (unless they only want to be a healer, in which case there really is no comparison since the Sorcerer can't do that at all) where the Sorcerers only is expected to fill one.

Except JJ has stated that oracles will get eschew material as a bonus feat already (mentioned in the forums).

And of course you'll get ganked -- after all the armor and shield are useless, and you wouldn't possibly have shield of faith up would you?

Worse spells over all?

Yeah cause you know shield of faith is a useless spell -- or protection from evil. No one will ever want heal, lesser restoration, raise dead, magic vestment, divine favor, darkness, delay poison, silence, invisibility purge, summon monster, dimensional anchor, dismissal, divine power, freedom of movement, spell immunity, giant vermin, flame strike, plane shift, spell resistance, slay living, the various symbol spells, true seeing, wall of stone, anti life shell, blade barrier, heroes' feast, destruction, etheral jaunt, greater scrying, anti magic field, dimensional lock, earthquake, firestorm, energy drain, gate, implosion, mass heal, or any of the mystery spells.

Those are all the "worse spell list ever!" spells.

Honestly if we were talking druid I might have something to agree with you on. But that is NOT the worse spell list.

You stated that the oracle had a "split role" that the healing spells were built into the class so he has to fill the "healer" role:

Arcane classes also generally need fewer stats to excel; divine classes tend to have split roles, needing more stats to fill those roles than arcane classes do. For example, in order to heal, the Oracle has to be adjacent to the person he's trying to heal, meaning he's going to need to be on or near the front line. That means he needs enough dex and con to survive there, and can't skimp too much on strength since he needs to wear armor, while a sorcerer can get away with dumping pretty much everything except charisma and a little bit of con.

(followed by)

100% false. The healing spells are, in fact, built into the class. If you're a good or neutral oracle, guess what, you get healing spells. When you have healing spells, you're pretty much expected to cover the role of healer.

So is he having to fill the role of healer... or does "expected to" mean something else? (changed to better state what I was getting at)

Further editing:

My overall point:

The oracle can fill the roles the sorcerer can -- and more since his baseline stats are better, he gets more spells known, earlier with more and better powers too.

IF he "needs" more stats it is only because he can do what one class already can -- and then some.

Blah Blah Oracle is amazing, sorcerer is da sucks blah blah

Then play an oracle and quit whining. Really, if you don't see what the sorcerer is good for play something else and let those who can see the value of the class enjoy it.

The game designers feel that the arcane spell list is better so arcane casters get fewer outside goodies. Get over it.

Edit: No amount of arguing is going to prove that gravy is better than ice cream either.

Yeah cause you know shield of faith is a useless spell

I'd rather have shield than shield of faith until shield of faith gets to its +5 bonus, which it doesn't do until level 18 IIRC.

or protection from evil, darkness, summon monster, dimensional anchor, dismissal, plane shift, the various symbol spells, true seeing, wall of stone, etheral jaunt, greater scrying, anti magic field, dimensional lock, gate, energy drain

All available to the Sorcerer too.

flame strike, firestorm, implosion, destruction

All done better by the Sorcerer, at lower spell levels.

heal, lesser restoration, raise dead, delay poison, mass heal

All healing spells, which you claim the Oracle doesn't ever want to use.

divine favor, divine power

Self-buffs, which I already said they had better than Sorcerers.

spell immunity, giant vermin, spell resistance

You're seriously holding these up as spells you'd actually want to cast? Spell immunity protects against a small handful of pre-determined spells. That's useless unless you already know what spells the NPC you're about to fight has memorized -- and even then it only protects against 4th level or lower spells that allow SR, which isn't generally anything worth caring enough about to get specific immunity against. Giant vermin is just laughable. You're spending a 4th level spell slot to make a handful of CR 1/2 to CR 3 creatures -- if and only if the normal versions are already present -- and you have very limited control over them such that they'll even attempt to attack your allies. And spell resistance is actually as much a debuff as it is a buff; it makes your healer's and buffers' jobs harder because now they have to penetrate SR just to cast spells on whoever you cast it on and it's a standard action every round to keep it down!

magic vestment, silence, invisibility purge, freedom of movement, slay living, anti life shell, blade barrier, heroes' feast, earthquake,

Most of which are decent, but not good enough to say that they have a comparable spell list to the Sorcerer. For every one of these spells, I can list 5 that the Sorcerer gets that are as good or better.

or any of the mystery spells.

Almost all of which are either Sorcerer or Cleric spells.

Those are all the "worse spell list ever!" spells.

More lies. I never said it was the "worse [sic] spell list ever!"; I said it was a worse list than the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and that levels 7-9 are very very thin.

Honestly if we were talking druid I might have something to agree with you on.

And this just makes me LMAO. Druids' spell list is dramatically superior to Clerics' in every way except for healing.

You stated that the oracle had a "split role" that the healing spells were built into the class so he has to fill the "healer" role:

Zurai wrote:

Arcane classes also generally need fewer stats to excel; divine classes tend to have split roles, needing more stats to fill those roles than arcane classes do. For example, in order to heal, the Oracle has to be adjacent to the person he's trying to heal, meaning he's going to need to be on or near the front line. That means he needs enough dex and con to survive there, and can't skimp too much on strength since he needs to wear armor, while a sorcerer can get away with dumping pretty much everything except charisma and a little bit of con.

(followed by)

100% false. The healing spells are, in fact, built into the class. If you're a good or neutral oracle, guess what, you get healing spells. When you have healing spells, you're pretty much expected to cover the role of healer.

So is he having to fill the role of healer... or does "expected to" mean something else? (changed to better state what I was getting at)

Have to vs expected to, since you seem unclear on the difference to the point of insisting that I have said the former when in fact I have said the latter, even in the quotes you provide.

My overall point:

The oracle can fill the roles the sorcerer can

But not as well as the Sorcerer can in many cases.

Another way to put it is this:

The Oracle is worse in many respects compared to the 3.5 Favored Soul, and the Favored Soul was considered a weak class.

You did say worse spells, not worse spell list.

Point of order though: Just because spells are on another list doesn't mean they can be discounted from the oracles list.

Giant vermin was not what I remembered of it (I agree in its current form this spell is not so useful, though finding some spiders/centipedes/scorpions really doesn't seem like it would be so difficult to me).

However it turns out to be your turn to lie -- I never claimed that an oracle wouldn't want to cast a healing spell -- I stated they don't have to fill the healer role, and don't have to cast healing spells.

"Have to? No, probably not. Expected to? Hell yes. Your fellow party members will be asking you, "Dude, why did you let us die? You had all kinds of healing spells available and you chose to cast nukes instead! You could have prevented that TPK instead of causing it!".

You are implying that no matter what they do they will have to fill the healer role. Granted you didn't outright explicitly state this -- but the implications are rather clear, even when you admit they "don't have to" you go on to imply that not doing so is a horrible idea.

I kind of doubt the sorcerer has a spell along the lines of freedom of movement, slay living is the lowest level death spell available (granted again that death spells are not top of the line spells), sorcerers don't actually have anything that does silence, and invisbility purge while a level higher lasts longer than glitterdust, and helps the entire party at once with a better radius.

Spell immunity has plenty of use (and it's higher level versions too) except if your characters never take the time to do some recon on what they might be facing. With spell resistance I must say I don't see that much in combat healing or buffing going on usually. At most a spell per caster might be used on buffing.

Flame strike is a level higher than fireball or lightning bolt, however it also has a higher maximum damage (also a higher DC) and at least part of it will cut through fire resistance in the case you use it against a creature that has it (or immunity) -- I freely agree such use of the spell would generally be a waste of a slot -- but it is still there. Going to mention the alignment damage spells here (holy smite and the like) -- the damage is less than fireball, however it is selective (you aren't going to fry your allies most likely) and I don't think it's highly likely that a player couldn't figure out what general alignment to prepare for the day. I'm not so sure the sorcerer has a spell like fire storm -- the closest I see is meteor shower. Fire storm not only deals damage on the turn it hits, but those that fail their save take 4d6 each round there after until they take a full round action and make a DC 20 reflex save (which at level 15 isn't too much of a stretch, but still burns an action).

I'm curious as to the sorcerer's equvilent to anti-life shell, blade barrier, and heroes' feast.

How exactly is the druid's list better than the cleric's list? This I would like put out in full.

Seriously? Healing spells are few and far between. About 1/3 of the published classes (including the APG) have the ability to heal. In a party with only one character of those classes, they will be REQUIRED to heal sometimes. If a character has an appropriate heal and instead allows his party to die, who is "douchey"?

I'd say this should *never* come up. Because when the players were creating characters, and dude 1 says, "I'll make an Oracle", and dude two went "cool, you'll be doing all the healing then?" then dude 1 would say "no, actually I have this cool other concept, one of you guy's in going to need to make up a healer, or at least someone who can share the healing duties with me.".

If that conversation doesn't happen, GM isn't doing his job.

Another way to put it is this:

The Oracle is worse in many respects compared to the 3.5 Favored Soul, and the Favored Soul was considered a weak class.

Patently absurd. The only way you can possibly say that is because by the time the Favored Soul was released, there was a massive addition of new spells to shore up the Cleric list. Class vs Class, there is no way the Oracle is weaker.

I'd say this should *never* come up. Because when the players were creating characters, and dude 1 says, "I'll make an Oracle", and dude two went "cool, you'll be doing all the healing then?" then dude 1 would say "no, actually I have this cool other concept, one of you guy's in going to need to make up a healer, or at least someone who can share the healing duties with me.".

If that conversation doesn't happen, GM isn't doing his job.

Agreed. Actually agreed with a +3 passion with pie and ice cream.

Zurai wrote:

Another way to put it is this:

The Oracle is worse in many respects compared to the 3.5 Favored Soul, and the Favored Soul was considered a weak class.

Patently absurd. The only way you can possibly say that is because by the time the Favored Soul was released, there was a massive addition of new spells to shore up the Cleric list. Class vs Class, there is no way the Oracle is weaker.

Agreed with the absurd but not the patently so. I'm playing one currently and I would say I'm one of the more powerful characters in the party. I'm the secondary fighter due to my mystery (battle) and my feats. I am a Healer but not the only one and I can do some Bard type pumping, or rather depumping of the enemies (Dazzling display, high Char, Intimidate=goodness in addition to the spells). My character works.

However, to do this I have to look at the rules very carefully, put a lot of thought into selecting my feats and my "build" in general. Looking at the other Mysteries, I think making an effective oracle takes some skill and I would not recommend it to a beginning player.

Basically I think it is an Average to Superior character class, for a player who knows how to pick feats, spells and likes having options. For someone not used to using Charisma based powers and skills, who isn't used to integrating disperate abilities, I suspect it is a road to frustration.

All the Best,

Kerney

I'd say this should *never* come up. Because when the players were creating characters, and dude 1 says, "I'll make an Oracle", and dude two went "cool, you'll be doing all the healing then?" then dude 1 would say "no, actually I have this cool other concept, one of you guy's in going to need to make up a healer, or at least someone who can share the healing duties with me.".

If that conversation doesn't happen, GM isn't doing his job.

Heck no!

That is ONE way it can work but things can work out just fine in a ton of other ways also. In organized play you have no idea who you will be adventuring with so people build more self reliant characters. In our current group we deliberately creature characters not knowing what the others would be crafting.

The real key is knowing what the expectations of the other players in the group will be. Some people just assume they can build a character around the concept that they can go tear things up and rely on someone else cleaning them up after you have all the fun. It's this attitude that is the real issue.

The GM's job (assuming it's not PFS) is to tell fun stories, create an appropriate level of challenge, and try and try to put an appropriate amount of treasure on the table.

The real key is knowing what the expectations of the other players in the group will be. Some people just assume they can build a character around the concept that they can go tear things up and rely on someone else cleaning them up after you have all the fun. It's this attitude that is the real issue.

I can agree with that. I guess what I was trying to say is that the GM should be looking out for that sort of problem. Your group is an exception as you've looked at this and said "ok, that could be a problem, but if it is, lets see where it takes us." which is also a fine way to play.

Obviously OP is a different kettle of fish, and you should be creating more self reliant characters for that.

Haste is stronger than bless, prayer, and heroes' feast. Holy aura is a stronger defensive buff, but I'd rather have haste than holy aura in 9 fights out of 10, especially as it doesn't take an 8th level spell slot. Not that there's much else useful at 8th level on the Cleric list; 7th, 8th, and 9th level suck because they're still suffering the effects of the 2nd edition Cleric list stopping at 7th level, so all those 7th level spells had to be spread out over three levels in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder, and frequently without notable improvements.

My bold

Zurai wrote:

Haste is stronger than bless, prayer, and heroes' feast. Holy aura is a stronger defensive buff, but I'd rather have haste than holy aura in 9 fights out of 10, especially as it doesn't take an 8th level spell slot. Not that there's much else useful at 8th level on the Cleric list; 7th, 8th, and 9th level suck because they're still suffering the effects of the 2nd edition Cleric list stopping at 7th level, so all those 7th level spells had to be spread out over three levels in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder, and frequently without notable improvements.

My bold

That explains a lot. I still think there are some good spells on the Cleric list; 7th, 8th, and 9th level, but most spells at those spell levels are not fun or not sexy and there are too few good spells.
Also there are lot of sister spells on the list at spell level 7 & 8 (Blasphemy, Holy Word, etc at 7 and Cloak of Chaos, Holy Aura, etc at level 8).
As for the Symbol spells? With a casting time of 10 minutes they are very hard to use.
7 - 9? These spell levels are indeed thin. Not bad but thin.

One assumes, or at least hopes, that the large spell section of the APG might address some of this?

7 - 9? These spell levels are indeed thin. Not bad but thin.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. There are good spells at each of those levels, but unless you're using non-Core sources for spells, you've only got a couple good choices at each level, so every high level Cleric tends to have exactly the same spells (in differing amounts) prepared, once you account for the alignment variants (holy word vs blasphemy, etc).

And yes, I'm 99.9% sure it's because of AD&D divine magic only going to 7th level (whereas AD&D arcane magic went to 9th just like 3rd edition). They did add some new spells with the transition, but for the most part they just took the 6th and 7th level spells and spread them out.

Hopefully the APG will improve matters somewhat.

I have two oracle questions, but I'm going to ignore all the oracle vs. sorcerer debate :-p

• In the playtest pdf, it states, "The following mysteries are just some of those that will appear in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide" [emphasis mine], and in the blog post, Jason said we will also have a "Life" mystery. QUESTION: Will there be any other mysteries besides "Life" and those in the playtest?
  
• Way back in a November blog post (IIRC), Jason stated that it was likely that the oracle would get Eschew Materials as a bonus feat, and that it was unclear if the oracle was going to need a divine focus. QUESTION: Has either of those things changed? (I.e., will the oracle get Eschew Materials as a bonus?)
  

I have two oracle questions [...]

• Will there be any additional curses?

Misery wrote:

Zurai wrote:

Have to? No, probably not. Expected to? Hell yes. Your fellow party members will be asking you, "Dude, why did you let us die? You had all kinds of healing spells available and you chose to cast nukes instead! You could have prevented that TPK instead of causing it!".

Honestly I hope that isn't true and if it is I'm glad I don't play in that game. I understand the point you're trying to make but for other people to be yelling at the oracle for having a different idea in mind for their charcter just seems way to douchey. Sorry, that line of thinking is just a pet peeve of mine.

Seriously? Healing spells are few and far between. About 1/3 of the published classes (including the APG) have the ability to heal. In a party with only one character of those classes, they will be REQUIRED to heal sometimes. If a character has an appropriate heal and instead allows his party to die, who is "douchey"?

Our games are usually much heavier on story and characters then the core of it all. We've run plenty of games with no healer type class. We manage (albeit roughly). I've also grouped with a druid who had a pretty neat backstory about why they couldn't/wouldn't cast healing spells. One of the party members DID die from lack of healing but no one (even the dead guy) thought for a minute it was the druid's fault. It would have been the same story if it were a cleric or now an oracle.

Concept and personal character story trumps that stuff with us and I find it way more annoying that someone in the group would get irritated by this. But I suppose we all have different playstyles and its why we get to pick the people we play with.

I like the changes to the witch very much, that way she has access to the improved familiar feat too without bringing up the question what the bonus spells of that would be.

Questions

1) Can't say for 100% but I am sure there are going to be more than just that one being added.

2) I really highly doubt they will give oracle eschew materials as baseline as the main drawback of taking the poltergeist curse is that casting spells takes a full round because you have to take a move action to retrieve your materials unless you specifically take that feat.

3) See #1.

In the playtest pdf, it states, "The following mysteries are just some of those that will appear in the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide" [emphasis mine], and in the blog post, Jason said we will also have a "Life" mystery. QUESTION: Will there be any other mysteries besides "Life" and those in the playtest?

I was also interested in that question, as well as what happened to the Teamwork feats, i.e. wasn`t there a hint a while back that the Cavalier would now have some tie-in with them? As well as the fact that one Flanking/extra AoO Feat was duplicated (but better) in Seekers of Secrets...

Originally I couldn't see myself playing an alchemist, and then I saw This picture. *sighs and adds another character concept to the pile*

I would be surprised that the Oracle needs a divine focus, as the Iconic's description for the class mentions that she is quite proud of having nothing to do with any god at all.

The Cavalier did get (and share) Teamwork feats in the final version of the playtesting.

Man, I can't wait to read the classes' official description. I will play a Witch/Alchemist for the Darkmoon Vale scenarios and I was thinking of maybe a Cavalier/Oracle for the Kingmaker AP :-)

I would be surprised that the Oracle needs a divine focus, as the Iconic's description for the class mentions that she is quite proud of having nothing to do with any god at all.

This. The backstory for the Oracle iconic somewhat surprised me, since Oracles don`t seem like they have much to do with the Gods. I suppose there could be signs of ¨divine¨ magic which could be interpreted harshly by a dogmatic society, but if an Oracle never uses ¨Cleric-y¨ spells/abilities and uses more ¨Sorceror-y¨ spells/abilities, I don`t see why they would stand out as associated with the banned Gods...?

The Cavalier did get (and share) Teamwork feats in the final version of the playtesting.

Oh thanks, I must have missed the final update of that...

The black raven wrote:

I would be surprised that the Oracle needs a divine focus, as the Iconic's description for the class mentions that she is quite proud of having nothing to do with any god at all.

This. The backstory for the Oracle iconic somewhat surprised me, since Oracles don`t seem like they have much to do with the Gods. I suppose there could be signs of ¨divine¨ magic which could be interpreted harshly by a dogmatic society, but if an Oracle never uses ¨Cleric-y¨ spells/abilities and uses more ¨Sorceror-y¨ spells/abilities, I don`t see why they would stand out as associated with the banned Gods...?

The spells she casts are always Divine in nature and her powers much like a paladins or rangers are not arcane in nature and that is easy to see to anyone with the e correct spells or Knowledge skills. And even if you cast an spell that is normally an arcane one it is cast as a Divine spells and easy to spot by those who have the correct skills

Ya just can't hide how ya cast.

I would be surprised that the Oracle needs a divine focus, as the Iconic's description for the class mentions that she is quite proud of having nothing to do with any god at all.

The Cavalier did get (and share) Teamwork feats in the final version of the playtesting.

Man, I can't wait to read the classes' official description. I will play a Witch/Alchemist for the Darkmoon Vale scenarios and I was thinking of maybe a Cavalier/Oracle for the Kingmaker AP :-)

You can have a divine focus without that focus being a holy symbol of a deity. Take druid's mistletoe as an example.

Ya just can't hide how ya cast.

Sure, though many Cleric spells are the type you could Cast in private, and the Class Abilities certainly aren`t casting in any form, presumably they just happen. But my point was that I thought Rahadoum was against anybody affiliating with ¨the gods¨, not with technically ¨Divine¨ magic use.

...So are Rangers also bad news in Rahadoum, since they also have ¨divine¨ spellcasting?

I would be surprised that the Oracle needs a divine focus, as the Iconic's description for the class mentions that she is quite proud of having nothing to do with any god at all.

The Iconic in question happened to come from a perfectly atheist country that persecuted religion. Until she encountered the deity in the story, she had never worshiped a deity.

This. The backstory for the Oracle iconic somewhat surprised me, since Oracles don`t seem like they have much to do with the Gods.

No, they don't necessarily have much to do with the church. The gods talk directly to the oracle, changing their life through direct contact.

To get at the difference between the two think of Joan of Arc as a NG Oracle/w the battle mystery. She had a conversation with some saints and was given a mission. The people who tried and burned her were LN to LE clerics (the campaign setting, real life, is rather like Eberron in that way).
Simularly, Francis of Assisi would be a cleric/oracle(nature), with more levels in Oracle rather then cleric, though most of his followers would be clerics.

People like the Buddha and many Shamans would also be Oracles.

I suppose there could be signs of ¨divine¨ magic which could be interpreted harshly by a dogmatic society, but if an Oracle never uses ¨Cleric-y¨ spells/abilities and uses more ¨Sorceror-y¨ spells/abilities, I don`t see why they would stand out as associated with the banned Gods...?

Wouldn't either a Knowledge: Arcane or a Knowledge: Religion roll let you know the difference? It might work to an untrained eye. I assume the bard in the Iconic story made his knowledge checks.

All the Best,

Kerney

Originally I couldn't see myself playing an alchemist, and then I saw This picture. *sighs and adds another character concept to the pile*

That is nice and inspiring

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

As for the cauldron bit, that is actually a mistake. I thought that was not in the final playtest, so I thought I would throw it in. It is easy for me to get these bits mixed up. Instead, I will give you a list of the patron names (mind you, these are just their concepts, you and your GM must decided who or what your patron actually is).

Agility, Animals, Deception, Elements, Endurance, Plague, Shadow, Strength, Transformation, Trickery, Water, and Wisdom.

Enjoy.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

The witch is looking very good, look forward to see the final product. Funny to see 'Water' and 'Elements as separate though.

Patrons with names like agility, strength or endurance don't sound very witchy. I think this change messes with the flavor of the class.

The witch is looking very good, look forward to see the final product. Funny to see 'Water' and 'Elements as separate though.

Nah, the fact is that some Witches are S.P.E.C.I.A.L. :D ...

People like the Buddha and many Shamans would also be Oracles.

Neither of those make sense.

Patrons with names like agility, strength or endurance don't sound very witchy. I think this change messes with the flavor of the class.

Maybe those patrons are for the witch-doctors that bargain with spirits to bolster their tribe's warriors, as opposed to European-style witches.

Kerney wrote:

People like the Buddha and many Shamans would also be Oracles.

Neither of those make sense.

Shamans are people who talk to spirits, some of who become patrons and are gods to the particular Shaman. Lots of cultures, for example the Japanese and the many native Americans the difference between a spirit and a God is nothing. For example the Japanese word Kami is translated both spirit and God, and they are both right.

They essentially become inpired by the god and try to change the world because of this. The Iconic example certainly mirrors these types of shamans.

The Buddha also had a transformative inspiration which led him to abandon his position of Prince and adopt a different life so he could create freedom from suffering for humans. He would be an example of an 'idea' oracle just like there are 'idea' clerics. That said, his backstory seems to resemble that of an Oracle rather then a Cleric.

Now, why do neither of those ideas make sense?

All the Best,

Kerney

doubleplusgood wrote:

Patrons with names like agility, strength or endurance don't sound very witchy. I think this change messes with the flavor of the class.

Maybe those patrons are for the witch-doctors that bargain with spirits to bolster their tribe's warriors, as opposed to European-style witches.

Maybe this is a last minute change and they just used the spell lists for the familiars instead of coming up with new ones? I bet if they had decided to do it this way from the get go the patron spell lists would look very different and be much more in the witch theme. IMHO the patron spells don't really make as much sense without being attached to their familiars. The whole thing looks tacked on.

Maybe those patrons are for the witch-doctors that bargain with spirits to bolster their tribe's warriors, as opposed to European-style witches.

That would be yet another way to build a Shaman type character, besides or Druid, Oracle or Sorcerer; each with a slightly different flavor. In fact, I like how many of the classes can be flavored somewhat differently.

All the Best,

Kerney

doubleplusgood wrote:

Patrons with names like agility, strength or endurance don't sound very witchy. I think this change messes with the flavor of the class.

Maybe those patrons are for the witch-doctors that bargain with spirits to bolster their tribe's warriors, as opposed to European-style witches.

I think there is an expectation that the player furnishes the flavor for the patron rather than that being explicit. So the 'patron' would be a benevolent spirit or god who the player communicates with via her familiar. Obviously we'll know more when they release.

Shamans are people who talk to spirits, some of who become patrons and are gods to the particular Shaman. Lots of cultures, for example the Japanese and the many native Americans the difference between a spirit and a God is nothing. For example the Japanese word Kami is translated both spirit and God, and they are both right.

That makes them shamans, not oracles. Oracles are those that channel the will of the gods. They are receptacles. Shamans just converse with spirits.

The Buddha also had a transformative inspiration which led him to abandon his position of Prince and adopt a different life so he could create freedom from suffering for humans. He would be an example of an 'idea' oracle just like there are 'idea' clerics. That said, his backstory seems to resemble that of an Oracle rather then a Cleric.

The Buddha gained some personal insight during a series of observations, he wasn't possessed by the spirit of some god.

Kerney wrote:

Shamans are people who talk to spirits, some of who become patrons and are gods to the particular Shaman. Lots of cultures, for example the Japanese and the many native Americans the difference between a spirit and a God is nothing. For example the Japanese word Kami is translated both spirit and God, and they are both right.

That makes them shamans, not oracles. Oracles are those that channel the will of the gods. They are receptacles. Shamans just converse with spirits.

Quote:

The Buddha also had a transformative inspiration which led him to abandon his position of Prince and adopt a different life so he could create freedom from suffering for humans. He would be an example of an 'idea' oracle just like there are 'idea' clerics. That said, his backstory seems to resemble that of an Oracle rather then a Cleric.

The Buddha gained some personal insight during a series of observations, he wasn't possessed by the spirit of some god.

I don't see why you're arguing that an oracle could never be a shaman and vice versa. It's like you're telling us that archers aren't fighters or that priests aren't clerics.

Oracles don't channel the will of the gods, oracle's aren't receptacles and oracles aren't possessed by the spirit of a god. They are "selected by providence" and "garner[s] strength" from "patron deities that support their ideals." Nothing in their entirely-ignorable-and-doesn't-really-matterable flavor text describes them as being forced to undertake a god's work, being filled by the powers of the gods or being possessed by spirits of gods.

Much like Kerney is adding his own flavor text to a class that has entirely mutable origins, like a rogue or a fighter, you are adding your own flavor text and claiming that your opinion is law.

I'm very much disappointed that there is only one new mystery for Oracles. That was a huge shortcoming in the playtest version, but the playtest notes said that there would be additional mysteries when the APG was released.

My love/beauty Oracle of Shelyn for Pathfinder Society. Well, the only playtest mystery which was even listed with Shelyn was Wind, which didn't fit and I was hoping for something better in the APG. It doesn't look like that's going to happen, so I guess I'll get on the Pathfinder Society board and see when the rebuild guidelines are going to be released and when characters need to be in compliance.

Personally I thought of Oracles in a different sort of way... Sort of the reverse of the abstract cleric. My own problem with the abstract cleric is this: How is a person able to summon up the conviction to worship a concept (domain) so strongly that they are able to obtain spells and magic from those concepts?

But I really like the oracle because it turns that entire thought around. It isn't that the character worshiped a concept so much as a concept choose THEM to do their bidding. Certainly these concepts are under the dominion of certain gods (once again domains as well as the gods listed in each mystery) but it's like the power the gods have vested in those domains is over flowing and this excess is out of the gods' hands and is being directed to specific conduits (specifically the oracles). The Iconic Oracle doesn't worship any of the gods BTW she simply thinks of them as strategic allies and doesn't have a hatred of them...

Of course I'm pretty open minded on how oracles can come about (one of my DMs has some specifics on divine magic and the gods and such that make my particular view not mesh well with his).

The Iconic Oracle doesn't worship any of the gods BTW she simply thinks of them as strategic allies and doesn't have a hatred of them...

The problem as I see it is that unless you venerate a specific concept which happens to precisely match one of the mysteries, you're left in the postiion where none of the mysteries are a good match.

My Oracle chose to venerate the love/beauty aspect of Shelyn (similar to Sune for those who are familiar with Forgotten Realms). I don't think there is a suitable mystery for that aspect of worship. If your focus is combat or knowledge, there are mysteries that fit, but the Oracle class doesn't appear to handle abstract ideals very well. I think this is a major problem with a class which attempts to divorce charcters from specific gods and tie them to concepts.