Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview #1

meatrace wrote:

Because spell>>>>>>>hp. For a fighter Hp>>>Skill point, but they don't get any other options. If a fighter got a feat instead of a skill or hp then THAT would be a no brainer.

I strongly disagree with this. Especially the fighter hp>sp. They already have lots of hp, so taking sp allows them to diversify some and do more in non-combat situations. Just like a rogue would almost always have hp>sp, since they have so many skill points to start with. The high HD, low skill point classes often find skill points far more attractive.

Agreed. For a fighter, he's probably not going to have a huge int (although I have played a high int barbarian before, precisely to get the skill points). At 2 sp per level, that's only two skills maxed out (Perception being one of them to avoid being ambushed). So that only leaves me one other maxed out skill. If I want to go the tumbling/intelligent fighter route (as opposed to the rogue swashbuckler route) then I need to max out Acrobatics to.

That was actually a really fun character. I had an Elf with an 8 cha, 10 wis, 16 int, 18 dex, 14 con, and 14 str. A barbarian who tumbled into people and chopped them with an axe to the groin as he came up out of his tumble. ;) And this was in 3.5, so I imagine he'd be much more fun in PF. He was also the smartest person in the group (no wizard, just a sorcerer and a cleric) so that was also fun. They kept pushing me to the front to talk because I could speak 8 languages (couldn't read them, but could speak them). The 8cha barbarian being the translator. It was hilarious.

Cleric : "Sir Byron, it is an honor to make your acquaintance. We are new to your lands, and we seek leave to travel across it, we come in peace." In Southern Common
Barbarian : "Yo, helmboy. We ain't gonna kills ya or nothin, we's just gonna march over ya property." In dwarven.
Sir Byron : "By what authority do you seek to pass over my lands, you churl?" In dwarven.
Barbarian : "Hey, buckteeth wants to know who yer boss is."
Cleric : "Pelor, god of the sun, guides my steps, good sir."
Barbarian : Thumbs at cleric. "He says the sun told him to march over your stupid lands, bucktooth."

I also think people are forgetting that this is the advanced players GUIDE not advanced players RULES - they are intirely optional and not CORE so if you feel that they will unbalance your game (I dont think that they do and Jason has done a great job balancing them (my personal opinion)) then pick and choose as suits your game and style.

The Paizo guys arent saying you will play this way - they are just providing a cool set of options.

The one thing I keep seeing is that people feel it is a no brainer to take the spell over the hp or the sp, so how is that different then the fighter taking the hp instead of the sp? The extra hp is the obvious choice for a front line character (at least from a power gaming stand point and I think that is what we are all looking at). How much different is the extra spell for a sorcerer really?

There are other ways to increase hit points (CON enhancements, toughness, false life, aid, etc) but no alternate ways to add spells.

I was the first to chime in with this idea but admit it was a bit short sighted because it assumes the APG adds nothing else relating to spells known. Jason mentioned the possibility of a feat which would grant extra spells, there also might be other ways to gain spells known.

At this point debating it is like debating how tall someone is when all you see is an eyebrow.

meatrace wrote:

Because spell>>>>>>>hp. For a fighter Hp>>>Skill point, but they don't get any other options. If a fighter got a feat instead of a skill or hp then THAT would be a no brainer.

I strongly disagree with this. Especially the fighter hp>sp. They already have lots of hp, so taking sp allows them to diversify some and do more in non-combat situations. Just like a rogue would almost always have hp>sp, since they have so many skill points to start with. The high HD, low skill point classes often find skill points far more attractive.

I strongly disagree. Here's the way I see things. You can either try to focus in one thing and be the best at it, or try to diversify. Sometimes being well-rounded helps, a rogue taking at least 1 point in a lot of different skills for example and trying to be helpful in combat, using some of his talents for combat focused abilities. Most of the time, in my experience, this only works when it is not to the detriment of a class's main focus. A wizard taking rapid reload to be better with crossbows is usually going to be wasteful because his strength is his spells.

The party is better off with someone who is better at the one thing he can do that no one else can, than that same person being slightly less crap at something they don't need him for. And it's party dynamics that is important.

For a fighter, there's not a whole lot of skills he needs to do what you want him to do: fight. You want him to be able to hit and take a hit, depending on build, be able to keep enemies off the squishier players. This is what he does best. To waste skill points on something another character is already better at only dilutes the class. Some classes maybe this choice isn't as obvious, like when I play a wizard I will alternate skill point/hit point and maybe rogues too. But fighters? Yeah they need hit points or else they can't, you know, FIGHT.

This is my point. Sorcers have limited spells known. At what point does giving them more spells known unbalance them towards other full casters, who can't cast spontaneously. As it sits, the new favored class is about a 33% increase in a sorcerer's spells known, which I would certainly term as significant. Only play testing will show it to be overpowered or not, and I'm leaning towards it maybe not being overpowering but EXTREMELY strong and utterly changing the way the class is played.

A sorcerer can be played as a themed spellcaster, and often is to great effect, but then they have holes in their repertoir for utility spells that a wizard will excel at, i.e. rope trick or shrink item. This allows a sorcerer to take these as well, even if they aren't a power spell they will be using often or can be used in a myriad of situations. It makes them look more like a spontaneous wizard than a different animal. Is this bad? Again, I don't know, but I know if I were playing a sorcerer I would DEFINITELY play a human above anything else save perhaps Aasimar.

I don't think this is a concern. Even with more spells known, the sorcerer won't step into the wizard's territory in versatility unless a wizard player deliberately chooses not to expand his list of spells.

Some notes:

Assuming one doesn't use this favored class choice to obtain extra cantrips known, I'm getting a 50% increase in the number of sorcerer spells known over 20 levels:

Standard: 5+5+4+4+4+3+3+3+3=34 spells known

A human sorcerer taking this choice for 17 levels (4th-20th)
34+17= 51 spells known

Note that both can still cast a base of 54 spells per day at 20th level, regardless of how many spells either knows.

Now the question is: does this overshadow the other races who want to be a sorcerer?

meatrace wrote:

This is my point. Sorcers have limited spells known. At what point does giving them more spells known unbalance them towards other full casters, who can't cast spontaneously. As it sits, the new favored class is about a 33% increase in a sorcerer's spells known, which I would certainly term as significant. Only play testing will show it to be overpowered or not, and I'm leaning towards it maybe not being overpowering but EXTREMELY strong and utterly changing the way the class is played.

A sorcerer can be played as a themed spellcaster, and often is to great effect, but then they have holes in their repertoir for utility spells that a wizard will excel at, i.e. rope trick or shrink item. This allows a sorcerer to take these as well, even if they aren't a power spell they will be using often or can be used in a myriad of situations. It makes them look more like a spontaneous wizard than a different animal. Is this bad? Again, I don't know, but I know if I were playing a sorcerer I would DEFINITELY play a human above anything else save perhaps Aasimar.

I don't think this is a concern. Even with more spells known, the sorcerer won't step into the wizard's territory in versatility unless a wizard player deliberately chooses not to expand his list of spells.

Some notes:

Assuming one doesn't use this favored class choice to obtain extra cantrips known, I'm getting a 50% increase in the number of sorcerer spells known over 20 levels:

Standard: 5+5+4+4+4+3+3+3+3=34 spells known

A human sorcerer taking this choice for 17 levels (4th-20th)
34+17= 51 spells known

Note that both can still cast a base of 54 spells per day at 20th level, regardless of how many spells either knows.

Now the question is: does this overshadow the other races who want to be a sorcerer?

Well okay then, 50% increase. That's FREAKING HUGE! A wizard, before buying scrolls and other things which may I remind you is not a guarantee, gets a total of 45 spells known not counting cantrips. So...the human sorcerer beats a stock wizard. And remember, a sorcerer can cast ANY ONE OF THESE without preparation, and more times per day than a wizard. The only balancing factor between the two classes, really, is that a sorcerer gets less known but more per day. Well now he is closing the gap in his built-in drawback by a significant amount.

I absolutely, positively, think that this ability will make human sorcerers FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR outshine any other race of sorcerers, barring of course another ability for a different race.

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level. Meanwhile, the gnome's extra 37 hp are useful in just about every encounter. Besides, when the gnome chooses a spell like wish, gate, or time stop, does it really matter if he knows a few less spells than his human sorcerer companion? Honestly, he can still cast these as many times per day as his human compatriot. The human knows a whopping 2 extra spells per level if you always pick the maximum spell level you can take.

I think you guys need to just agree to disagree. It is pretty obvious you guys are not going to agree about this.

Yup... +1

The only balancing factor between the two classes, really, is that a sorcerer gets less known but more per day.

You may feel that the spells known thing is huge, and it may or may not be, but this above is just flat out wrong. The biggest thing, in my opinion (and Jason's it sounded like) is the delayed casting. That alone makes wizards a far more powerful class than the sorc (and it makes absolutely no sense to me, but I'll ignore that for the moment).

Fully half of the sorcerer's levels it'll be below the expected level of casting for a primary caster. That's an enormous disadvantage, and one that can't be overcome by scribing scrolls (buying, sure, but that's much more expensive and much less reliable) the way a wizard's "less castings per day and might not have the right spells memorized" disadvantage can be. If the option to give up all 20 favored class bonuses to get a non-delayed casting was given, I'd take it in a heartbeat, as would every other sorcerer player I know, and that would only bring their casting to the same pace as every prepared caster.

Until the delayed casting is able to be done away with and massive amounts of extra known spells are gained somehow, the wizard will still be on top.

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Because we all know this game is nothing but nonstop combat, and utility spells have no use and see no play whatsoever.

anthony Valente wrote:

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Because we all know this game is nothing but nonstop combat, and utility spells have no use and see no play whatsoever.

We also know that a gnome sorcerer (for instance) has no resource to turn to to compensate. :)

This is really akin to the debate of a specialist wizard's drawback of restricted access to opposition schools.

EDIT: I get your concern Meatrace. But I just don't see it being a definite outshining of every other race of sorcerers. To be fair, only 4 of the 7 races are really in contention to begin with IMO: half-elf, gnome, halfling, human. And I've been wondering whether or not half-elves and half-orcs are considered human for the purposes of favored class racial benefits (i.e. see elf blood and orc blood). I'm thinking not, but I'm not sure.

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Yeah, level 4 spells are terrible at level 10

anthony Valente wrote:

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Yeah, level 4 spells are terrible at level 10

INORITE!

anthony Valente wrote:

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Yeah, level 4 spells are terrible at level 10

Who's saying they're terrible at level 10?

Cartigan wrote:

anthony Valente wrote:

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Yeah, level 4 spells are terrible at level 10

Who's saying they're terrible at level 10?

You.

INORITE!
What's the point. I'd rather have a rank of Profession(Soldier).

Why would a sorcerer choose profession (soldier)? (other than fluff reasons)

meatrace wrote:

INORITE!
What's the point. I'd rather have a rank of Profession(Soldier).

Why would a sorcerer choose profession (soldier)? (other than fluff reasons)

Thank you for making my point, sir.

anthony Valente wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

anthony Valente wrote:

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Yeah, level 4 spells are terrible at level 10

Who's saying they're terrible at level 10?

You.

You're saying they're so weak that one hit point ONE MEASLY HIT POINT is better. I mean seriously?

When did I say it was better?

so the whole argument is

Is not
Is to
Uh uh
Uh huh
No
Yes
No
Yes
Nope
Yep
Is not
Is to

And repeat.

anthony Valente wrote:

meatrace wrote:

INORITE!
What's the point. I'd rather have a rank of Profession(Soldier).

Why would a sorcerer choose profession (soldier)? (other than fluff reasons)

Thank you for making my point, sir.

Good day.

Yes, but why would ANYONE choose this skill? (other than fluff reasons)

profession skill is all in the game, some games they may be very useful, others not so much.

so the whole argument is

Is not
Is to
Uh uh
Uh huh
No
Yes
No
Yes
Nope
Yep
Is not
Is to

And repeat.

Yes, pretty much. I was hoping for stimulating debate, but at this point, it seems irredeemable as meatrace would rather resort to putting words in my mouth.

(shrug).

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

so the whole argument is

Is not
Is to
Uh uh
Uh huh
No
Yes
No
Yes
Nope
Yep
Is not
Is to

And repeat.

Yes, pretty much. I was hoping for stimulating debate, but at this point, it seems irredeemable as meatrace would rather resort to putting words in my mouth.

(shrug).

Lol whatever. Ok do you feel that a spell or a hit point is a better decision? Since apparently I completely misread your argument.

Yes, pretty much. I was hoping for stimulating debate, but at this point, it seems irredeemable as meatrace would rather resort to putting words in my mouth.

(shrug).

There are others who disagree with you who have decided this thread isn't the place for a debate on the topic.

Edit: Also, there is a lot of room between "OMG IT'S Broeked!" and just shrugging it off.

Cartigan wrote:

anthony Valente wrote:

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Yeah, level 4 spells are terrible at level 10

Who's saying they're terrible at level 10?

You did.

Lol whatever. Ok do you feel that a spell or a hit point is a better decision? Since apparently I completely misread your argument.

If you're genuinely interested, I'm willing to start it up in a new thread. I agree with some of the last few posters that I've helped muddle this thread long enough. (my apologies).

There are others who disagree with you who have decided this thread isn't the place for a debate on the topic.

Edit: Also, there is a lot of room between "OMG IT'S Broeked!" and just shrugging it off.

I think I fall somewhere abouts "Huh... that's cool... I'm going to go kill something with my axe now"

ruemere wrote:

Any chance to get a break down of feats numbers by type? For example combat/team/metamagic?

Regards,
Ruemere

Sure, there's LOTS of one, SOME of the other, and A QUANTITY of the rest. Which is which? Alas, but WAFO.

Jason,

I think you guys need to just agree to disagree. It is pretty obvious you guys are not going to agree about this.

+1.

I don't even know what people are debating here.. I'd say that *any* choice can be "superior" for different kind of characters in different kinds of campaigns. For example, if my campaign consists of 5% combat and 95% intrigue and role-playing, +1 hp/level may be completely insignificant to *all* characters.

I don't see a point in arguing over having options; if one of them is clearly superior in all the campaigns you're playing in, feel free to pick it every time. However, I like that there are choices that make PCs more versatile, i.e. extra skill points and spells instead of having a host of only "combat-focused" options.

anthony Valente wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

anthony Valente wrote:

Yep: 50% increase in spells known at the highest level, and most likely 50% of those extra spells known are utterly useless in a level appropriate encounter being so low of a spell level.

Yeah, level 4 spells are terrible at level 10

Who's saying they're terrible at level 10?

You did.

No he didn't. He said half of the extra spells are useless at level 20. So spells of level 1-4 at 20th level. So your counter argument should be spells of 2nd level are not useless at level 10.

No he didn't. He said half of the extra spells are useless at level 20. So spells of level 1-4 at 20th level. So your counter argument should be spells of 2nd level are not useless at level 10.

Then why get spells at all until 20th level if they are useless at 20th level? Obviously the game has been giving people too many spells. Sorry, Sorcerers, please give half your spells known back.

Justin Franklin wrote:

No he didn't. He said half of the extra spells are useless at level 20. So spells of level 1-4 at 20th level. So your counter argument should be spells of 2nd level are not useless at level 10.

Then why get spells at all until 20th level if they are useless at 20th level? Obviously the game has been giving people too many spells. Sorry, Sorcerers, please give half your spells known back.

First off I am not agreeing with the OP that those spells are useless, just that you were misquoting his point. I might call those spells not as useful. That is just the nature of the game magic missile is really cool until you get fireball, which is really cool until you get meteor swarm. The thing I will agree with him on is that alot of the time the spells you use first are the higher level ones. Which makes it very hard to quantify how much stronger the sorcerer is with this ability. It definitely could be more useful the more encounters you have in a day, but even then maybe not (you have three encounters against creatures with vulnerability to fire and so you cast fireball as your 3rd level spell all day). Does it increase the power level of that character somewhat, how much is going to take me playing 2 sorcerers one with and one without.

First off I am not agreeing with the OP that those spells are useless, just that you were misquoting his point. I might call those spells not as useful.

His point seemed to me that he was trying to do what a number of others keep doing - obfuscating the ability and implying that you only get low level, possibly just level 1, spells every time you take the ability. And unless I misread it, that is flat out wrong. The proper exchange is +1 HP or SP for a highest level spell-1 spell known. Sure, an extra 2nd level spell is probably pretty lame by 20th level - just like almost EVERY OTHER 2nd level spell. But how lame is an extra 2nd level spell at the first level you can cast 3rd level spells?

Isn't it obvious at this point that neither side will concede to the other? But by all means, keep it up. Its an entertaining read. Ive had my fun and am backing out to the side lines to enjoy the show.

Justin Franklin wrote:

First off I am not agreeing with the OP that those spells are useless, just that you were misquoting his point. I might call those spells not as useful.

His point seemed to me that he was trying to do what a number of others keep doing - obfuscating the ability and implying that you only get low level, possibly just level 1, spells every time you take the ability. And unless I misread it, that is flat out wrong. The proper exchange is +1 HP or SP for a highest level spell-1 spell known. Sure, an extra 2nd level spell is probably pretty lame by 20th level - just like almost EVERY OTHER 2nd level spell. But how lame is an extra 2nd level spell at the first level you can cast 3rd level spells?

To be honest when I first read this ability I thought wow that is really overpowered to the point where I almost thought about house ruling it out. The thing is though as I have thought about it the less increase in power I feel it actually brings. I think this makes a sorcerer situationally more effective. How much so that is going to take some playtesting and I am not going to start that until I have te APG.

For those interested in the debate behind the human sorcerer favored class bonus, I recommend they revisit page 2 of this thread.

For those interested in the debate behind the human sorcerer favored class bonus, I recommend they revisit page 2 of this thread.

So people are debating over whether extra spell slots are inferior to extra hit and skill points or not?

Wow. I don't mean to sound condescending, but as I already said, I think it's dependant on the nature of the campaign and each character.

I like options and variety -- even when those options might not be "absolutely" balanced with each other.

anthony Valente wrote:

For those interested in the debate behind the human sorcerer favored class bonus, I recommend they revisit page 2 of this thread.

So people are debating over whether extra spell slots are inferior to extra hit and skill points or not?

Wow. I don't mean to sound condescending, but as I already said, I think it's dependant on the nature of the campaign and each character.

I like options and variety -- even when those options might not be "absolutely" balanced with each other.

Actually, the arguments are (in a spectrum)

A) OMG! BROAKEN! BROAKEN! POWER CREEP! EVIL! DESTROY! INSULT THOSE THAT DISAGREE!
B) It's overpowered.
C) It's about right.
D) It's not over powered, it's only useful in the middle range.
E) OMG! WHY WOULD YOU EVER TAKE THAT! IT'S STUPID! MOAR HP!

Personally, I am in the C camp.

Asgetrion wrote:

anthony Valente wrote:

For those interested in the debate behind the human sorcerer favored class bonus, I recommend they revisit page 2 of this thread.

So people are debating over whether extra spell slots are inferior to extra hit and skill points or not?

Wow. I don't mean to sound condescending, but as I already said, I think it's dependant on the nature of the campaign and each character.

I like options and variety -- even when those options might not be "absolutely" balanced with each other.

Actually, the arguments are (in a spectrum)

A) OMG! BROAKEN! BROAKEN! POWER CREEP! EVIL! DESTROY! INSULT THOSE THAT DISAGREE!
B) It's overpowered.
C) It's about right.
D) It's not over powered, it's only useful in the middle range.
E) OMG! WHY WOULD YOU EVER TAKE THAT! IT'S STUPID! MOAR HP!

Personally, I am in the C camp.

Put me in that camp, too. :)

mdt wrote:

Asgetrion wrote:

anthony Valente wrote:

For those interested in the debate behind the human sorcerer favored class bonus, I recommend they revisit page 2 of this thread.

So people are debating over whether extra spell slots are inferior to extra hit and skill points or not?

Wow. I don't mean to sound condescending, but as I already said, I think it's dependant on the nature of the campaign and each character.

I like options and variety -- even when those options might not be "absolutely" balanced with each other.

Actually, the arguments are (in a spectrum)

A) OMG! BROAKEN! BROAKEN! POWER CREEP! EVIL! DESTROY! INSULT THOSE THAT DISAGREE!
B) It's overpowered.
C) It's about right.
D) It's not over powered, it's only useful in the middle range.
E) OMG! WHY WOULD YOU EVER TAKE THAT! IT'S STUPID! MOAR HP!

Personally, I am in the C camp.

Put me in that camp, too. :)

C for me as well

I am going to go with.... Z

It's just about right. I would probally take a combo of spells and skills. I love skills.

C+. A bit of an increase in power, but not an unwarranted one.

Put me in the C+ camp as well. More options always give a slight increase in power, as you can customize your character to how you want to play.

We seem to have wondered from choices (mdt above) to a grading scale. I so feel like I'm at work...

I am going to go with.... Z

It's C for Cheliax, right? Or do I have to ask the Holy Inquisition to pay you a visit again? ;P

Whether the new spells are unbalancing or not, I must emphasize that what the Sorcerer really needs is more skill points, not more spells.

I'm going to go with B. That said, this isn't going to change, and with all the other great stuff that's been shown to us so far this is hardly going to affect my opinion on the APG. Can't wait!

We seem to have wondered from choices (mdt above) to a grading scale. I so feel like I'm at work...

The Sorcerer Favored Class Broken-ness Worksheet