Giving your Imp familiar equipment?

From what I understand, the Imp, being a tiny humanoid creature, can use wands and such.

But can an Imp use armor, or carry a shield? Or use weapons?

According to the chart for this chart over armor for unusual creatures, even a Tiny creature can use armor (at 1/10 of the weight but also the armor bonus divided by half)..

Provided that the equipment doesn't weight too much for the Imp, and the Imp takes the penalties for wearing armor without Armor Proficiency, could you tool up your familiar with something like an Imp-sized Leaf Armor? Or an Imp-sized buckler?

And likewise, what about weapons? Do weapons even function for "tiny" creatures? (mostly I see references to the reduced damage small creatures do). Could a wizard/witch cast Bestow Weapon Proficiency on their Imp and have him shoot with a cute tiny crossbow?

I see no reason why you couldn't have special armor and weapons made for your imp. Note that your familiar doesn't have to take the two feats noted in the Bestiary entry for imps; it has three Outsider HD worth of feats, and can have any it meets the prerequisites for; for instance, Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency. There's actually a table in the Weapons section of the CRB that tells you the damage dice for Large and Tiny versions of weapons.

Note that your familiar doesn't have to take the two feats noted in the Bestiary entry for imps; it has three Outsider HD worth of feats, and can have any it meets the prerequisites for; for instance, Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

That's awesome! Where does this come from? I haven't seen such a thing anywhere when reading up on familiars.

Another quick question, does the Imp's poison only apply to it's natural attacks? Or is it assumed that if the Imp has a tiny pitchfork he applies his own naturally occurring poison on the weapon?

Edit: Reading about Outsiders (which Imps are), it seem that they are already "Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.", which would enable an Imp to use a miniature crossbow without even needing to spend a feat on it.

According to the Outsider type in the Bestiary:

- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

So the Imp is already proficient with weapons, and while it is not proficient with armor, it can use it with normal penalties.

In addition, refer to the "Armor for Unusual Creatures" section of the Core Rulebook's Equipment section in regards for your armor and shield. Armor for a humanoid size tiny creature costs half as much (base price) and weighs 1/10 the weight as armor sized for a Medium creature. In addition, the AC bonus is halved.

Well, it's not stated as an explicit rule that familiars are allowed to deviate from the feats listed in their bestiary entry, but then again there's nothing disallowing it, and it makes perfect sense. The Imp in the Bestiary is just an example creature; surely not every imp in creation has the exact same feats. Now, admittedly, this would require your GM to agree to let you do this, but it wouldn't be a houserule per se. Basically there's a lack of rules, and it's obviously commonsensical that, since creatures gain feats as they do HD, these feats are selectable.

In the case of NPCs with racial HD, said feats are selected by the GM. In the case of a familiar, well...it'd be up to your GM whether he/she picks your familiar's feats or lets you do it. To me it seems strange you shouldn't be allowed to, since everyone else gets to fiddle with the moving parts of their critters. Anyway, it's a judgment call. If this is for PFS or something like that, with which I have zero experience as I only play home games with a group of close friends, I suppose my suggestion is a moot point.

@Raisse: Nice catch on the outsider weapon proficiency! I had forgotten about that.

Looking at a feat like Spell Sponge, we find this:

Special: Feats that are meant for familiars can be switched out for a familiar's default feats (as listed in the familiar's statistics) if the familiar meets the prerequisites. Such feat replacements must be made when the PC first acquires a new familiar, and-like all new feats from supplemental sources-the new feats should be approved by the GM before being integrated into play.

But this seems to say that you can swap only the feats that the Familiar possess normally (2 for Imp), and that you can only do it with these special "Familiar Feats" (which there are only a tiny handful of, and they aren't that good).

Looking at a feat like Spell Sponge, we find this:

Spell Sponge wrote:

Special: Feats that are meant for familiars can be switched out for a familiar's default feats (as listed in the familiar's statistics) if the familiar meets the prerequisites. Such feat replacements must be made when the PC first acquires a new familiar, and-like all new feats from supplemental sources-the new feats should be approved by the GM before being integrated into play.

But this seems to say that you can swap only the feats that the Familiar possess normally (2 for Imp), and that you can only do it with these special "Familiar Feats" (which there are only a tiny handful of, and they aren't that good).

I think the practice of Swapping Feats gained from racial HD started with some suggestions on how to customize monsters and the issue got more confused with bonus feats being marked with an "B".

But as there´s no rule allowing the swapping an Animal Archive even rules aganst it, I guess it should be spelled out in the Bestiary FAQs that swapping feats is not intended.

Animal Archive introduced a handful of feats (Critical Conduit is my favorite) that can be swapped out for a Familiar's default feats. Beast Bonded Witches and custom Homunculi are two other ways to add variety to your Familiar. Outside of those options you're stuck with the base creature.

Aha. I stand corrected, then. Not really up to speed on all the splat books. Seems like an unnecessary nerf to me, but there ya' go. Glad to be playing with a GM that allows familiars to take any feats they qualify for, then, I guess. :) I mean, most of them get Weapon Finesse which as a feat does literally nothing for most familiars.

Would an Imp still get his Poison (Ex) applied when attacking with weapons instead of his natural attack?

Edit: And are there any guidelines for weapon cost of a tiny weapon? There is a handy chart for unusually sized weapon damage, but no info on how much these weapons would actually cost. Would it just be the regular price?

Almost certain that's a no. It says specifically that the poison is delivered via the sting; I don't think he'd get it with any of the natural attacks of his change shape-forms either, since polymorph effects make you lose special abilities dependent on your true form...

Aha. I stand corrected, then. Not really up to speed on all the splat books. Seems like an unnecessary nerf to me, but there ya' go. Glad to be playing with a GM that allows familiars to take any feats they qualify for, then, I guess. :) I mean, most of them get Weapon Finesse which as a feat does literally nothing for most familiars.

Than be glad you haven´t seen Improved Familiar totally abused. Just had a player come up with the notion of reworking a Lyrakien to be a heavy UMD user with swapping the Feats and Skills so the familiar could effectivelly carry and usw a wand and a staff and act as a buff-bot.

Would an Imp still get his Poison (Ex) applied when attacking with weapons instead of his natural attack?

Edit: And are there any guidelines for weapon cost of a tiny weapon? There is a handy chart for unusually sized weapon damage, but no info on how much these weapons would actually cost. Would it just be the regular price?

The poison is a feature of the Imp, so no, w/o a suitabel enhancement on the weapon, it can´t use it.

As for the cost, simple compare with the next weapon on the list having that kind of damage. IIRC a skaled-down greatsword should be a d6 weapon and cost as much as a short sword.

Also don't forget an imp is tiny so when it attacks with a regular weapon it has no reach. Giving an Imp a reach weapon is a good idea so it can hit someone 5' away without entering it's square and provoking.
I know imps can disappear but that doesn't mean they can attack with impunity....pun intended....and just a mistake or two or a "see-invisibility" creature could be the end of Imp #25416.

Just remember... the more of a combat threat you make your imp, The more likely someone is going to try to squash it.

Just remember... the more of a combat threat you make your imp, The more likely someone is going to try to squash it.

Yeah, that is true!

Animal Archive introduced a handful of feats (Critical Conduit is my favorite) that can be swapped out for a Familiar's default feats. Beast Bonded Witches and custom Homunculi are two other ways to add variety to your Familiar. Outside of those options you're stuck with the base creature.

Can the familiar use the retraining rules?

Nefreet wrote:

Animal Archive introduced a handful of feats (Critical Conduit is my favorite) that can be swapped out for a Familiar's default feats. Beast Bonded Witches and custom Homunculi are two other ways to add variety to your Familiar. Outside of those options you're stuck with the base creature.

Can the familiar use the retraining rules?

Simply dismiss it an call a new one, this time with the feats you want.

In a home game these are excellent suggestions.

In PFS you default to the base Pathfinder rules set.

Which means no retraining for Familiars, no swapping out their feats (other than what I mentioned earlier), and no tiny-sized weapons (since there are no rules for pricing out such things).

Tiny-sized armor is fine, though. I gave my Quasit in PFS a Mithral Chain Shirt just so he could always have a +2 Armor Bonus, or +4 when I cast Monstrous Physique on him.

Outside of PFS your options are only limited by GM fiat.

In a home game these are excellent suggestions.

In PFS you default to the base Pathfinder rules set.

Which means no retraining for Familiars, no swapping out their feats (other than what I mentioned earlier), and no tiny-sized weapons (since there are no rules for pricing out such things).

Tiny-sized armor is fine, though. I gave my Quasit in PFS a Mithral Chain Shirt just so he could always have a +2 Armor Bonus, or +4 when I cast Monstrous Physique on him.

Outside of PFS your options are only limited by GM fiat.

Oh I didn't know PFS had houserules banning retraining for Familiars, that is a shame.

It's not a PFS restriction. There are no rules for retraining Familiars.

It's not a PFS restriction. There are no rules for retraining Familiars.

Actually, it states in the opening text of Animal Feats: "Feats that are meant for familiars can be switched out for a familiar's default feats (as listed in the familiar's statistics) if the familiar meets the prerequisites. Such feat replacements must be made when the PC first acquires a new familiar"

It states in Familiars: "If a familiar is dismissed, lost, or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete."

Therefore: It is possible to dismiss a Familiar. After the compulsory week of waiting, you can get a new familiar with the swapped feat.

I already covered that earlier.

Rikkan mentioned "retraining", specifically, and there are no rules for "retraining" your Familiar or Animal Companion.

It's not a PFS restriction. There are no rules for retraining Familiars.

I don't see anything preventing familiars to use these retraining rules.

Oh, I haven't been switching out my familiar's feat in order to turn it into some sort of horrid wandmonkey monstrosity. It's just rather nice to be able to give your familiar Combat Reflexes when you're planning on going the rather suboptimal route of using it as a melee critter by maxing your Con score, piling temporary hit points and a polymorph spell on it and such. I can easily imagine swapping feats about with the aim of boosting a familiar's SPAs or UMD or casting capacity can quickly become utterly ridiculous. Glad to be playing at a table with an agreed-upon level of optimization and an utter lack of disruptive/immature players and/or drama.

That being said, though, clearly what's going on at my table is, contrary to my original post, totally within the realm of house rules. It seems readily apparent, having read the Animal Archive stuff, that familiars are supposed to all be cookie cutter clones when it comes to the feat department. Really, it makes sense, though in the case of my particular character build I don't think there's any trouble with the way our GM allowed the feat swapping. In general though, you wouldn't expect to be able to pick the spells known of a familiar that casts spells like a sorcerer, so why feats, really...

In a home game these are excellent suggestions.

In PFS you default to the base Pathfinder rules set.

Which means no retraining for Familiars, no swapping out their feats (other than what I mentioned earlier), and no tiny-sized weapons (since there are no rules for pricing out such things).

Tiny-sized armor is fine, though. I gave my Quasit in PFS a Mithral Chain Shirt just so he could always have a +2 Armor Bonus, or +4 when I cast Monstrous Physique on him.

Outside of PFS your options are only limited by GM fiat.

How is there not rules for the price of a tiny weapon?

You want a tiny longsword, well longswords cost 15 gp and there is no rule stating a tiny weapon costs anything different (unlike armor).

So your tiny longsword costs 15 gp.

Nefreet wrote:

It's not a PFS restriction. There are no rules for retraining Familiars.

I don't see anything preventing familiars to use these retraining rules.

Pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules that give your Familiar or Animal Companion the ability to retrain, not rules that state they can't. Retraining "allows you to alter aspects of your character", not your Familiar or Animal Companion.

PFS requires the added cost of Prestige Points when you retrain, which Familiars and Animal Companions also do not have.

But, if you're in a home game (which this discussion can only be about), you're in luck. You can talk to your GM and get it approved =).

How is there not rules for the price of a tiny weapon?

I believe one of the Designers, either SKR or JJ, stated once that they did not feel the need to include rules for pricing out tiny- and huge-sized weapons in the CRB either because of word count, space, or likelihood of use.

You want a tiny longsword, well <medium-sized> longswords cost 15 gp

Fixed that for you.

there is no rule stating a tiny weapon costs anything different (unlike armor).

So your tiny longsword costs 15 gp.

There are no rules stating that a tiny weapon is available for purchase, which is what's holding you up in PFS. You can't custom craft gargantuan-sized greatswords or diminutive daggers, either.

But, for a home game, it's easy to figure out. I'd probably just use the same progression for armor to figure out the price of a weapon. But that's a houserule, and nothing more.

Thats okay, just get your imp a small whip, and let him use it with 2 hands and at -2. Now he can Aid another against anything within 15 feet. Since he only needs to hit a 10, what do you care about the -2 penalty?

Samasboy1 wrote:

You want a tiny longsword, well <medium-sized> longswords cost 15 gp

Fixed that for you.

Nope, medium and small longswords cost 15 gp. And since there is no rule altering the price for sizes larger than Medium, or smaller than Small, then longswords of Large or Tiny would also cost 15 gp.

Because it doesn't say Medium longswords cost 15 gp. It says longswords cost 15 gp.

There are no rules stating that a tiny weapon is available for purchase, which is what's holding you up in PFS. You can't custom craft gargantuan-sized greatswords or diminutive daggers, either.

What rule says "medium sized equipment is available for purchase"?

None, the equipment section lists equipment (for medium and small sizes) with a price, so the assumption is that they are available for purchase.

The armor section gives guidelines for altering armor for tiny creatures, so you say it is available for purchase.

Well, the longsword gives a price, and the weapon section tells you how to alter the damage for tiny, since it doesn't say to adjust the price, you don't.

Result, tiny sized longsword still cost 15 gp.

@Samasboy1

Are you trying to create some universal rules there from scratch? Ok, then the Large Longsword shouldn´t cost 30 gp (see Weapon size and cost) but should be a "longsword" and cost 15 gp, because Samasboy1 said so?

I'm actually sure there are rules for pfs dictating what size items can be purchased. Although it seems silly you can't pay 15 to for something likely worth less than that.

@Samasboy1

Are you trying to create some universal rules there from scratch? Ok, then the Large Longsword shouldn´t cost 30 gp (see Weapon size and cost) but should be a "longsword" and cost 15 gp, because Samasboy1 said so?

I am not creating anything. I am using the rules that are present. I did mention Large longswords erroneously, since there actually is a specific rule for them.

The weapon entry says the cost for a longsword is 15 gp. There is a note that Large weapons cost twice as much. That's all the rules we have for weapon price (that I can find).

So, is a Tiny longsword a longsword? Yes.
What do longswords cost? 15 gp.
Is there a rule modifying that amount for being Tiny? No. So, a Tiny longsword also costs 15 gp.
Is there a rule modifying the longsword stats for being Tiny? Yes, it does 1d4 dmg, but is still slashing with 19-20/x2

I didn't make anything up, create anything, or produce new rules. I used the information present in the book.

If there isn't a specific rule that changes a general rule, you use the general rule. That doesn't mean there isn't a rule.

You're forgetting the "S" and "M" above the 15gp.

Small longswords and Medium longswords cost 15gp. Large cost 30gp.

There is no entry for any other size, but you are free to create your own cost (outside of PFS).

I've also found that the magic items Shawl of Life-Keeping (1,000 gp) and Robe of Needles (1,000 gp) are great for a familiar who has the body parts to use them.

Especially Imp, since his fast healing 2 gives him back the 10 health he puts in the Shawl, and his flying makes him easy to position for throwing needles while being safe.

Rikkan wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

It's not a PFS restriction. There are no rules for retraining Familiars.

I don't see anything preventing familiars to use these retraining rules.

Pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules that give your Familiar or Animal Companion the ability to retrain, not rules that state they can't. Retraining "allows you to alter aspects of your character", not your Familiar or Animal Companion.

PFS requires the added cost of Prestige Points when you retrain, which Familiars and Animal Companions also do not have.

But, if you're in a home game (which this discussion can only be about), you're in luck. You can talk to your GM and get it approved =).

Yes, and thus a familiar can use the retraining rules to retrain itself. But the master of the familiar can't force the familiar to retrain feats.