Making a Bard

Did I say Inquisitor? I meant Bard. (the DM banned non-core classes - except for the guy he inexplicably let play a Summoner. I don't even)
Though he banned non-core classes, I am apparently allowed other non-core choices (I made a nuisance of myself quadruple checking this), that said..

I have a Half-Elf Archivist Bard with absurd stats (everyone was given very high stats because it was only a 3 person party - before I joined) so assume I qualify for anything stat wise.

So far at 2nd level...

• Archivist Bard archetype
  
• Taking Half-Elf Bard favored class bonuses of extra performances
  
• Took Extra Performance at first level
  
• Replaced Multitalented with Arcane Training since I am not looking at multiclassing
  
• Took Dangerously Curious and Focused Mind traits
  
• Used racial Skill Focus on Linguistics (which is actually more useful than one would think because one of the houserules is apparently I can't read languages I speak without a linguistics check)
  
• Primarily using a Shortbow for combat with a Longsword backup for melee
  
• Spells: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Message, Light, Mage Hand, Identify, Hideous Laughter, Feather Fall
  

I'm less sure about what spells and feats I want to go towards for a Bard than I am for an Inquisitor. I am taking suggestions on this.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should do going forward as for spells and feats?

Why don't you state your view for the character, what you want him to accomplish, and how you want him to grow? Right now, all I can really say reading your post is: "Yes, that sounds good."

Also, post the stats you have so we can see on what the character is focusing.

Harmonic spell feat allows you to cast and prolong your performance. Lingering performance feat continues your performance for 2 rounds after you end it, if you have to for any reason. Two very basic, very useful bard feats.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should do going forward as for spells and feats?

Are the feats and spells limited to core only as well? For example can you take feats and or spells from the APG?

Cartigan wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestions for what I should do going forward as for spells and feats?

Are the feats and spells limited to core only as well? For example can you take feats and or spells from the APG?

I am pretty sure I just said only classes are limited. I haven't looked over non-core spells, but they are allowed from the impression I got.

My aim is to make a Bard. That does Bard stuff. And stays alive. Since I am an Archivist, pimping my skills - and knowledge skills especially - is important. Spells for party support are good. Feats that make me better at doing Bard stuff/party support are probably above combat feats.

If you can use APG feats, Lingering Performance is a very solid choice IMHO. Buff for 1 round with Inspire, then stop and cast a few times, then fascinate/suggest/counter a round, then go back to casting or shooting or whatever.

The Lingering Performance allows for your song effects to carry over for 2 rounds after you quit doing them, or until you begin another song. Its awesome for lower level action conservation.

Also try to nab a "Lesser Quicken Metamagic Rod" by level 7. That way you can Inspire via a move action, cast something as a swift action, and then either cast again or attack as a standard action.

I used Lunge feat with a long spear or whip, plus a 5ft step as an attack, giving me between 20-25 feet of attack range (10 foot spear, 5 foot from lunge, + 5 foot step) after the inspire and Haste/Goodhope/Heroism spell. Good times!

Arcane strike is a decent combat choice for bards because your caster level == character level.

Bard gets whip profiency, so you can disarm and trip at 15 feet.

Something to consider, a 1 level dip in fey sorcerer gives you laughing touch, +2 on charm(compulsion) DCs, Mage Armor, Shield, and True Strike. True strike + whip = really good chance to trip or disarm someone.

The DM is not keen on multiclassing. And I'm pretty sure I mentioned I didn't intend to anyway.

Also, said I'm not going to focus on combat. I'll let the 3 other people in a 4 person party who are melee do melee stuff.

Looks like a solid character - Pathfinder made Identify kind of pointless* though, so since you have so few spells known I'd let the Wizard worry about that and pick up either Grease (Core) or Saving Finale (APG). I'm also a fan of having Cure Light Wounds as a spell available just in case as a bard. Grease is cool for either tripping a group, disarming a single, or heling an ally escape a grapple easier. Saving Finale fits in the support the team mold.

* Spellcraft lets you identify magic items, Identify just gives you a bonus on the the check. Most level-equivalent items I have encountered playing a wizard have not needed the bonus you get from Identify. My wizard did gain Identify through loot from a fallen villain wizard, but has yet to memorize or cast it.

The DM is not keen on multiclassing. And I'm pretty sure I mentioned I didn't intend to anyway.

Also, said I'm not going to focus on combat. I'll let the 3 other people in a 4 person party who are melee do melee stuff.

Most of the advice I gave is more for action conservation and focusing on doing 2 or 3 things per round than combat, but I figured in a group of 3 combat guys, you just standing around being the buffer and or skill monkey is probably going to get boring, especially at higher levels where more and more foes will be around or higher level and tougher foes. Eventually you will want to swing something pointy at the bad guy, especially if you give everyone huge bonuses from inspire and haste and good hope and heroism and the like.

If you can use APG feats, Lingering Performance is a very solid choice IMHO. Buff for 1 round with Inspire, then stop and cast a few times, then fascinate/suggest/counter a round, then go back to casting or shooting or whatever.

The Lingering Performance allows for your song effects to carry over for 2 rounds after you quit doing them, or until you begin another song. Its awesome for lower level action conservation.

Also try to nab a "Lesser Quicken Metamagic Rod" by level 7. That way you can Inspire via a move action, cast something as a swift action, and then either cast again or attack as a standard action.

I used Lunge feat with a long spear or whip, plus a 5ft step as an attack, giving me between 20-25 feet of attack range (10 foot spear, 5 foot from lunge, + 5 foot step) after the inspire and Haste/Goodhope/Heroism spell. Good times!

Archivists don't get Inspire. They get Naturalist, which as far as I can tell, is a slightly more defensive version that requires the bard to identify his opponent with a knowledge check.

Actually, why did you pick Archivist? Also, can you post your stats?

Looks like a solid character - Pathfinder made Identify kind of pointless* though, so since you have so few spells known I'd let the Wizard worry about that and pick up either Grease (Core) or Saving Finale (APG).

We don't have a Wizard, but I may consider repurposing Identify.

I'm also a fan of having Cure Light Wounds as a spell available just in case as a bard.

I was going to, but we have a healbot Cleric and decided I rather not fall to my death. And since Cure Light Wounds is spell-trigger, I can use Wands - if we can ever afford one...

Grease is cool for either tripping a group, disarming a single, or heling an ally escape a grapple easier. Saving Finale fits in the support the team mold.

Saving Finale may be good, but I have to be performing already.

The DM is not keen on multiclassing. And I'm pretty sure I mentioned I didn't intend to anyway.

Also, said I'm not going to focus on combat. I'll let the 3 other people in a 4 person party who are melee do melee stuff.

Fair enough, you may want to look into using a whip with improved trip then. Prone enemies are much easier for your melee allies to hit.

Bomanz wrote:

If you can use APG feats, Lingering Performance is a very solid choice IMHO. Buff for 1 round with Inspire, then stop and cast a few times, then fascinate/suggest/counter a round, then go back to casting or shooting or whatever.

The Lingering Performance allows for your song effects to carry over for 2 rounds after you quit doing them, or until you begin another song. Its awesome for lower level action conservation.

Also try to nab a "Lesser Quicken Metamagic Rod" by level 7. That way you can Inspire via a move action, cast something as a swift action, and then either cast again or attack as a standard action.

I used Lunge feat with a long spear or whip, plus a 5ft step as an attack, giving me between 20-25 feet of attack range (10 foot spear, 5 foot from lunge, + 5 foot step) after the inspire and Haste/Goodhope/Heroism spell. Good times!

Archivists don't get Inspire. They get Naturalist, which as far as I can tell, is a slightly more defensive version that requires the bard to identify his opponent with a knowledge check.

Actually, why did you pick Archivist? Also, can you post your stats?

Because I decided Archivist was cool. Naturalist is a more defensive version of Inspire Courage. You lose bonus damage and bonus vs fear or charm and gain bonus to AC and bonus on saving thrwos vs creature's EX, SU, SP abilities

Str: 15
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 16
Wis: 15
Cha: 20 (18 + racial)

Cartigan wrote:

The DM is not keen on multiclassing. And I'm pretty sure I mentioned I didn't intend to anyway.

Also, said I'm not going to focus on combat. I'll let the 3 other people in a 4 person party who are melee do melee stuff.

Fair enough, you may want to look into using a whip with improved trip then. Prone enemies are much easier for your melee allies to hit.

I bought a Whip. I am just unsure whether there are better feats to get besides wasting them on now useless Combat Expertise and then Improved Trip that I will use little early in the game and basically none later in the game.

Fun trivia: The main reason I've been wanting to play a Bard is so I can have a harmonica as my instrument because no one ever picks harmonica. It's always singing or oratory so you can attack with both hands. Forget that, I will just get one of those harmonica holders and play a real instrument.

Technically, you shouldn't need combat expertise or improved trip, because you won't be provoking AoO unless the enemy you're tripping has 15ft reach. Your stats are excellent though, and it would really be a waste to eschew combat completely.

I would decide though, to focus on either melee or ranged for instances when party buffing is finished or unnecessary. Ranged would be safer, but you actually have a healthy strength and constitution score that you could go in with a Longsword two-handed, and contribute well, while still playing your harmonica and with haste cast upon yourself and the other combatants.

Don't forget, also, that if you keep both hands free you can use a whip in one and a sword in the other, able to cover (with the Lunge feat) a reach distance 20ft out in every direction.

Feats to think about:

Lingering Performance was already suggested, and will definitely free up quite a few performance slots.
If you're going ranged, the point-blank to rapid shot to many-shot will mean you're contributing well to damage while still buffing others and being the knowledge guy.

Also, is there someone else in the party taking care of traps? I know that at 2nd level an archivist can disable magical traps, so if no one else is doing that, it may be up to you.

Technically, you shouldn't need combat expertise or improved trip, because you won't be provoking AoO unless the enemy you're tripping has 15ft reach. Your stats are excellent though, and it would really be a waste to eschew combat completely.

I would decide though, to focus on either melee or ranged for instances when party buffing is finished or unnecessary. Ranged would be safer, but you actually have a healthy strength and constitution score that you could go in with a Longsword two-handed, and contribute well, while still playing your harmonica and with haste cast upon yourself and the other combatants.

Don't forget, also, that if you keep both hands free you can use a whip in one and a sword in the other, able to cover (with the Lunge feat) a reach distance 20ft out in every direction.

Feats to think about:

Lingering Performance was already suggested, and will definitely free up quite a few performance slots.
If you're going ranged, the point-blank to rapid shot to many-shot will mean you're contributing well to damage while still buffing others and being the knowledge guy.

Also, is there someone else in the party taking care of traps? I know that at 2nd level an archivist can disable magical traps, so if no one else is doing that, it may be up to you.

There is a Rogue with a higher Int (I think I have the lowest ability scores) who I presume put some of his skill points in Disable Device (though I am going to have to help everyone fix their skills - they used the 3.5 method of proportioning them).

Fun trivia: The main reason I've been wanting to play a Bard is so I can have a harmonica as my instrument because no one ever picks harmonica. It's always singing or oratory so you can attack with both hands. Forget that, I will just get one of those harmonica holders and play a real instrument.

Don't forget to make it masterwork for the +2!

On the whip + trip. The Naturalist bonuses to hit will work with trip attacks. Weapon Focus(whip) and Improved Trip will give you a +3 to trip attempts as well as the enhancement bonus of the whip. Get a wand of true strike, and UMD it for a +20 when it really counts.

At level 8, you would be looking at a +6 BAB, +2 imp trip +1 weap focus +2 weap enhance +2 Naturalist +2 strength = +15 to trip attempts Which would be a around a 75% chance to trip a Bodak. With true strike, you could easily trip a treant despite it being huge.

If you really don't care about damage, you may want to dump strength to amp your dexterity and use weapon finesse with the whip.

Cartigan wrote:

Fun trivia: The main reason I've been wanting to play a Bard is so I can have a harmonica as my instrument because no one ever picks harmonica. It's always singing or oratory so you can attack with both hands. Forget that, I will just get one of those harmonica holders and play a real instrument.

Don't forget to make it masterwork for the +2!

Soon as I can afford another 100 gold. He let me have a free Shortbow of some detail and gave us max gold but I blew most of it on a chain shirt.

On the whip + trip. The Naturalist bonuses to hit will work with trip attacks. Weapon Focus(whip) and Improved Trip will give you a +3 to trip attempts as well as the enhancement bonus of the whip. Get a wand of true strike, and UMD it for a +20 when it really counts.

Useless. Tripping is only useful until your enemies turn into giants and huge four legged creatures, at which point all the feats I could have used on useful stuff, become useless.

At level 8, you would be looking at a +6 BAB, +2 imp trip +1 weap focus +2 weap enhance +2 Naturalist +2 strength = +15 to trip attempts Which would be a around a 75% chance to trip a Bodak. With true strike, you could easily trip a treant despite it being huge.

Really a Bodak? And I have to use a spell to trip a treant. How about I just let other people beat it to death and stay out of easy range of combat.

If you really don't care about damage, you may want to dump strength to amp your dexterity and use weapon finesse with the whip.

These are rolled and already existing stats.

I am not making a combat Bard.
If all the not explicitness has confused you, I decided to make it clear.

My suggestions are:

Feats:

1.) Master Performer (increases all the bonuses given by your performances by 1){In the faction guide}[prereq is extra performance so you are all golden here]

2.) Grand Master Performer (increases all the bonuses given by your performances by 1 and stacks with Master performer) {In the faction guide}

3.) Weapon Focus: Whip (Opens Whip Mastery)

4.) Whip Mastery (No AoO for using a whip) {Ultimate Combat}

5.) Improved Whip Mastery (Threaten your reach + 5ft while using a whip, grasp tiny or smaller objects with your whip, use whip as grappling hook) {Ultimate Combat}

6.) Greater Whip Mastery (Lets you grapple with your whip, you do not drop your whip on failed trip or grapple)

7.)Combat expertise (Just to open the trip line)

8.) Improved trip (For the bonus)

9.) Greater trip (For the bonus)

Spells:

I like the cures, however you have stated you have a curebot cleric so ok.

The Inspiration and finale spells rock.

Glitterdust is very very good.

Arcane concordance is flat amazing.

Besides that Heroism, good hope, greater heroism, haste, all the usual.

Items:

Get a scorpion whip so you can hurt armored opponents.

Anyway just some thoughts, hope some of it helps.

Fun trivia: The main reason I've been wanting to play a Bard is so I can have a harmonica as my instrument because no one ever picks harmonica. It's always singing or oratory so you can attack with both hands. Forget that, I will just get one of those harmonica holders and play a real instrument.

You don't need to play an instrument to do performances.

Cartigan wrote:

Fun trivia: The main reason I've been wanting to play a Bard is so I can have a harmonica as my instrument because no one ever picks harmonica. It's always singing or oratory so you can attack with both hands. Forget that, I will just get one of those harmonica holders and play a real instrument.

You don't need to play an instrument to do performances.

No, I guess not technically.

I am not making a combat Bard. If all the not explicitness has confused you, I decided to make it clear.

Agreed. -- Bards are so starved for feats, and typically cannot use the same weapon all the time, that feats which make the bard slightly better with weapons are suboptimal.

If you take any combat feats at all, grab the usual archery trio of Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid shot -- these synergize well with your desire to stay out of melee and effectively contribute without blowing your spells and performances too quickly. Trick: multiclass one level of fighter; grants longbow, a free feat for archery, and medium armor proficiency (for mithril agile breastplate armor down the road).

Regards Performance feats -- you need to ask yourself (and maybe the DM) how far up level-wise you'll be going in the campaign (and how fast). Things like Extra Performance and Extended Performance are very useful for low-level bards or multiclass bards, but don't scale well.

Improved Initiative (plus an INIT+trait) -- highly recommended. Go before your tank allies 80% of the time. Or cast that Invisibility and get the Duck out of Fodge.

I'd look here for further advice, in case it's helpful:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/chaismaBasedBard

Really a Bodak? And I have to use a spell to trip a treant. How about I just let other people beat it to death and stay out of easy range of combat.

The bodak was an example of a medium sized bipedal creature of the appropiate CR. The treant is a giant sized example. My point, which you so obviously missed, is that you would easily be able to trip most medium sized humanoid opponents without using a spell, and the spell would allow you to trip anything that is not immune to trip.

Further, It is very impolite to yell at people who are trying to help brainstorm for ideas. For the record, I don't consider a bard whose entire purpose is to trip opponents to be a combat bard, but if you are intent on being completely useless in combat, then my reccomendation is to spend all your feats on skill focus.

Trick: multiclass one level of fighter; grants longbow, a free feat for archery, and medium armor proficiency (for mithril agile breastplate armor down the road).

Mithril medium armor does not count as light armor in PF unless agile does something. And if I wanted longbow, I would've rolled an Elf.

Regards Performance feats -- you need to ask yourself (and maybe the DM) how far up level-wise you'll be going in the campaign (and how fast). Things like Extra Performance and Extended Performance are very useful for low-level bards or multiclass bards, but don't scale well.

Improved Initiative (plus an INIT+trait) -- highly recommended. Go before your tank allies 80% of the time. Or cast that Invisibility and get the Duck out of Fodge.

That's a good point on Extra Performance. I may go Lingering Performance. Then I can cast spells and keep performance up. Or, technically, grant myself 3x more performances by only performing once every 3 rounds.

For the record, I don't consider a bard whose entire purpose is to trip opponents to be a combat bard, but if you are intent on being completely useless in combat, then my reccomendation is to spend all your feats on skill focus.

Despite tripping being a combat action that requires you to be within easy combat range of any given enemy.

Because not wanting to spend tons of feats so I can wade into combat to attempt to perform "non-combat" Combat Maneuvers clearly means I want to be useless in combat.
Sure, if you count "useless in combat" as doing something besides being a melee combatant or top damage dealer.

I'd look here for further advice, in case it's helpful:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/chaismaBasedBard

My thread came first. People should be coming here for useful information. If anyone would ever care to provide any instead of going off on tangents.

You don't need Lingering Performance to cast and perform at the same time. Still a nice feat if you are worried about your rounds per day being used up.

You don't need Lingering Performance to cast and perform at the same time. Still a nice feat if you are worried about your rounds per day being used up.

Oh, well, no matter on spell casting then. Still mathematically better than Extra Performance since it scales dynamically as a Performance extender* and has additional benefits.

*Hah

Sorry if I can't find it, but what's the party comp? That plays a big factor in deciding what to do with a bard.

Sorry if I can't find it, but what's the party comp? That plays a big factor in deciding what to do with a bard.

Level 2 Summoner (of questionable correctness)

OK, summoner is typical arcane sorcerer-type substitute. Rogue may arcane multiclass. TWF fighter is your front-line.

Cleric will single-handedly make you face much tougher fights than normal. (Otherwise, there would be no challenge.) In that case, in combination with a sorcerer-type arcane class, you probably need to have a buff option at pretty much every level. In that case you'd help the rogue and fighter contribute to harder fights (read: higher AC/DR) -- also works well with a summoner.

You don't have inspire courage, which is kind of blah. However, you do have a summoner, so you don't have to worry about haste (he should be Mr. Haste). So instead you can focus on good hope at 7th level (which is forever away anyway).

Hideous laughter is fine initially (it gets traded out eventually for a utility spell at 5th level). Don't focus any more energy on 1st level spells with saving throws except possibly grease. Consider timely inspiration to help you burn 1st level spells for a long time.

Glitterdust is a solid pick for 2nd level spells. Versatile weapon is also a solid pick for this party. This is an unorthodox pick, but the rage spell might actually be good here. Your inspire courage replacement buffs AC and you're going to be buffing many melee-oriented summons/characters. Conventional wisdom recommends against the rage spell, but in this case it might be the best option.

Confusion or fear is my 1st pick for 3rd level. Good hope is a clear win.

For feats, you really don't care that much about buffing enchantment spells, so no need for spell focus. Spellsong just looks too good to pass up for a feat. You may want to burn a feat to be the Crafting guy (either Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Magic Arms and Armor).

Mithril medium armor does not count as light armor in PF unless agile does something.

That's a good point on Extra Performance. I may go Lingering Performance. Then I can cast spells and keep performance up. Or, technically, grant myself 3x more performances by only performing once every 3 rounds.

See Spellsong from Ultimate Magic.

OK, summoner is typical arcane sorcerer-type substitute.

Probably not so much. And eventually he will end up dead or not a summoner. As part of the character storyline.

Rogue may arcane multiclass.

For 1 level. To get cantrips. Which the DM isn't allowing until 5th level.

Cleric will single-handedly make you face much tougher fights than normal.

Possibly. There weren't any in the first combat I was in. He is basically a wand of healing. He was not involved at all in combat either as a target or a combatant.

Don't focus any more energy on 1st level spells with saving throws except possibly grease.

We all know how Grease changed right?

I'll ponder the rest

We all know how Grease changed right?

Yes, but it was nerfed because the spell was too good for 1st level. It's still effective as an AoE spell. It ignores SR. It's best use is disarming big toughs (particularly strong early on), but it will always have a ton of utility later on. I'd say it's optional with hideous laughter, but it's definitely not terrible.

Cartigan wrote:

We all know how Grease changed right?

Yes, but it was nerfed because the spell was too good for 1st level. It's still effective as an AoE spell. It ignores SR. It's best use is disarming big toughs (particularly strong early on), but it will always have a ton of utility later on. I'd say it's optional with hideous laughter, but it's definitely not terrible.

The repeated falling down each turn was pretty strong, but now you aren't even counted as balancing if you are standing in it so I mean, if there is one guy you really want to disarm, it might be ok. But if there is one guy you really want to disarm, he is probably just as susceptible to hideous laughter.

The repeated falling down each turn was pretty strong, but now you aren't even counted as balancing if you are standing in it so I mean, if there is one guy you really want to disarm, it might be ok. But if there is one guy you really want to disarm, he is probably just as susceptible to hideous laughter.

Early on, yes. Later on, hideous laughter gets SRed to death + everything is an outsider/undead/etc. I like hideous laughter early on because there are always a lot of humanoids to use it on. But at 5th level it's a good target for a switch-out.

Grease isn't a homerun spell like hideous laughter, but it's a still a good combat-tempo trick. It also is effective a lot longer.

I don't blame you for not picking it, but I don't think it's wrong not to pick it.