Hey everyone, I really hate to do this, especially since I was brought in to replace someone you lost, but I clearly don't have the bandwidth for gaming right now, so I'm going to have to bow out. I'll leave my profile as is for the foreseeable future and you can feel free to use Ethulfel as an NPC if/when you like, but its been like 3 weeks since I've really been able to keep up and that's not fair to anyone else.
I hope my leaving doesn't disrupt things too much for the rest of you. Happy gaming.
Well I just noticed this. That’s unfortunate. Ill update tomorrow; busy with going to drill this weekend for this first time in awhile.
It seems things are grinding to a halt; with one drop and one that’s likely out; please hop in and let me know if you’re still here and interested. I’d rather not just assume to keep things moving but it’s starting to look rather dire.
I'm still here, but I acknowledge your point and am ok if you decide to close it down.
I'm here and interested. But there is a noticeable lack of momentum in the game. (I don't know how to fix it, really)
I'm ok with slow pace, but I understand if it starts to feel like a burden.
I’m not inclined to close things down. But mainly wanted to gauge who’s still here and if anyone had lost interest. I’ll give Gavia today to post. But it seems we are down to two, which is unfortunate if that’s the case.
As for the game I’m still interested in continuing; I would possibly do a recruitment to see who we can gather to continue. I don’t mind finding a way to slot someone in considering the circumstances. If we elect to not do a recruitment then my alternative is gestalt, to help cover bases.
Let me know what you think, I’m enjoying the game and characters I just think the lack of momentum is a combination of time (holidays are starting and it is the killer of many a game) as well as the uncertainty of who is left. I’m fine with a slower pace but the general post a weekday is still the goal.
It seems two is all we have left, which is unfortunate. Well in that case I don’t think gestalt will be enough to patch up the party. If everyone is still interested I’ll fire up a recruitment and see if we can get a couple people.
I'm still around as well, but I've been swamped at work and so really behind here on the boards.
If you want to recruit and find a couple of good replacements, I'm fine with bowing out of the game. If you want to gestalt I can stay.
I don’t have a problem if you’re active enough; as for gestalt or recruitment I’m still leaving that up to the group. If we can get a consensus by Friday then I’ll get it up and hopefully over the weekend we can settle things.
Three with gestalt should be quite doable. Maybe - I don't know what is coming up :D
Getting new players is a good option as well, I don't know how easy it'll be.
This could be a good spot also think how to keep the game moving better.
I'm not familiar with gestalt, but with a little guidance, I could probably pick it up. That said, I'm also open to picking up more players. I'm ok with Gavia posting slow due to her work, assuming she wants to continue.
I have been hesitant on posting because of the lack of content from other players. I don't want to feel like I'm the only one posting.
@Zuriel: I think the most concise explanation of gestalt is roughly:
Each character has two classes. When the two selected classes conflict, the character has the better of the two class features. (HP dice, strong/weak saves, proficiencies, skills in class, skill points, etc). The character has all the class abilities of both class. If a class places a limitation on a ability, it remains in force (for example a Fighter/Wizard has the fighter's armor proficiencies, but also still the spell failure chances of a wizard).
This sounds pretty crazy, but in practice it's not a huge gain. It makes characters more versatile, but the action economy is unchanged. A character might have more options, but can still only do one thing at a time.
Also, unless one or both classes give bonus feats, a character still has the same number of feats as always. Generally there are fewer feats available to build each of the character's classes.
Also, the game is a 15 point buy. It's hard to get the ability scores needed for a lot of class combinations. For example, Gavia pretty much has to choose wizard. Her physical stats are too low to choose any martial class, or any class wit wisdom or charisma based casting. Arcanist and Psychic are out because she doesn't have a secondary stat high enough for either of them.
Not that getting a wizard's casting is a bad deal. She give up wearing armor, but she's still 3/4 BAB so can poke at things with her spear if there's no better option at the time. In terms of using actions, she'll choose an investigator or wizard class action turn to turn.
Edit: When using Gavia as an example, I forgot about Witch. She would have two classes she could reasonably pair with Investigator.
@gavia I’d argue you’d be able to also do Magus, sage sorcerer, and the few other int based classes kicking around. But that’s a good point. I think the consensus is more people if I’m not mistaken.
As we work through this I’ll reevaluate things on my end to keep things moving. I’m just hesitant as I hate to cut out participation.
For me it would be quite obvious to go with the original oradin plan for gestalt.
So my thinking is we will do a rebuild and on next level up (which is very soon) we will bump up ability scores to 20 and gestalt you all.
That should help with things a bit considering you are missing a player, also be aware I’ll keep loot as is so you will have some extra coinage as well.
My best two stat are Dex 16 and Charisma 14. I'm not sure what would be a good secondary class for Zuriel.
Rogue / Fighter is really solid. You don't have to care about the Fighter's lack of skills, and you get full BAB, more HP, Stronger Fort save, and lots of feats to play with. Play like a thief who's tougher and more accurate.
Rogue / Sorcerer could also work. Just stick to utility and buffing spells rather than ones that offer opposing saves. You lose armor, but Mage Armor is just as good as anything you have now. Also a good Will save.
Rogue / Bard wouldn't make you much more fit for combat, but gives you lots of flexibility. You get spells and the performances. Depending on if you choose and archetype and which one, you also get better at Knowledge checks with Bardic Knowledge (but many archetypes trade Bardic Knowledge away). Also a good Will save. I think there's enough overlap in the classes that this isn't really a great option though.
You also will boost your attribute so that’ll help to make things fit. As for gestalt ideas I’d also recommend cavalier since flanking buddy, bab and challenge. Less thief more warrior esque
But Gavia has some of the better options listed.
OK, I found a way, using a third party add on, to allow Hero Labs to create a gestalt character. That was my biggest hold up with the gestalt concept. I didn't want to hand track and update the character. To much time and effort to do it all manually. Anyway, I think I will branch into fighter/rogue. Are we going to apply the 20 to all stats or just primary ones? 20 base almost feels a little OP.
I assume GM meant 20 points-buy as the original was 15...
@Zuriel: Mind sharing where to find that hero labs add on?
There is a PDF to read on how to install. It's fairly easy. Keep in mind that this is a third party add on. I'm not sure how secure it is. Its available on the Lone Wolf Development forum.
So, it's safe to say, 20 in all stats is a bit of a reach LoL...
Lol 20 point but, 20 all stats is an idea but I’ll shelve that for a different game.
And understandable about gestalt it’s a bit much to track for some class combos.
I don't know if this helps but after installing the pack, gestalt shows up as a class in the class selection processes. Select it as class 1 then select what two classes you desire. You should now have a gestalt tab where you can assign the two other classes, which combines them.
Are we still going to have the +1 HP, Skill Point, and favored class bonus when we switch over?
I'm a bit curious. Have you decided which way you might go with your Gestalt class August?
Yes the full FCB of hp, SP, and racial bonus is still being used.
Yes the full FCB of hp, SP, and racial bonus is still being used.
And is the racial bonus for both classes of the gestalt?
@Zuriel: My original idea for August was paladin/life oracle multiclass, so I suppose that is the way to go with the gestalt as well. Life link to heal everyone else, and lay on hands to swift action heal August. I haven't yet looked if there would some oracle archetype that would suit the theme.
After looking things over, I could see Zuriel branching into Inquisitor (Sanctified slayer). Slayer would grant off level sneak attacks that would stack with the rogues. He would also gain Bane, spells, and a number of other cool stuff. I think that would be the most interesting build....I will likely go that route.
OK, more or less, I think I have Zuriel set up with a gestalt build. I will be taking (Unchained rogue / Inquisitor-Sanctified Slayer) of Calistria. The goddess of Lust, REVENGE, and Trickery fits into Zuriel's personality and history.
Racial FCB’s are gonna apply to both classes sneak attack im going to cap at 3/4 of your hit dice. I just realized that sneak attack accrual is weird with gestalt. I figure with an extra die or so it’s not a huge deal.
Racial FCB’s are gonna apply to both classes sneak attack im going to cap at 3/4 of your hit dice. I just realized that sneak attack accrual is weird with gestalt. I figure with an extra die or so it’s not a huge deal.
I was looking over the sneak attack progression and it looks like stacking it could get OP very quickly. When comparing a side-by-side view, it looks like the slayers sneak attack mirrors the rogues every other progression. Meaning, on the levels the sneak attack matches, only 1 should apply. So, Zuriel at level 4 would have 2d6 sneak attack from rogue and 1d6 from inquisitor slayer. That would be 3/4 of his hit dice.
What about feats that add sneak attack dice? Example: Inquisitor gains a teamwork feat of his choice, which he assumes any allies automatically also have. Would he still gain the addition 1d6 from precis strike?
Teamwork Feat: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the inquisitor gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as teamwork feats. The inquisitor must meet the prerequisites of the selected bonus feat.
Solo Tactics: At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. Her allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the inquisitor to receive the listed bonus.
Maxed out attack option
Move action (Bluff/Faint) 1d20+12
Attack Elven curved blade: +10 (+2 w/Flank) (1d10+11/18-20) (This includes Power attack and study target) +3d6 sneak damage (Rogue) +1d6 (Sneak Damage Inquisitor) +1d6 sneak damage (Precise strike) +2d6 (Bane) + Debilitating injury (Hampered -2/-4 to hit).
Bane is incredibly powerful ability, but has limited amount of use (was it 1 round per level?) Sneak damage is a lot as well, but sometimes harder to pull off. All in all, big jump in dps level 5 onwards.
I haven't yet started building the gestalt. I'm having some second thoughts about the life oracle (is lift link plus being the front line guy just the quickest way to get killed..?)
But anyway oracle is probably best synergy and thematic fit for August.
Agreed August. There is a lot of circumstance issues with pulling off that amount of DPS. To have all of them at once is unlikely. Fighter would increase BAB and add a lot of feats, but not much diversity, which I believe was the primary reason to go Gestalt. So, I figured inquisitor is one of the most diverse classes, it has some back up heals, and with the right god it leans into Zuriel's sinical perspective. Zuriel is full of lust, just not lust of the flesh. Well, not at least when anyone is looking. He lusts mainly for treasure. Vengeful is something I could totally see within his temperament, and trickery, well, that speaks for itself.
Indeed, inquisitor is very diverse class and good addition to any class.
As for August... I'm just thinking aloud here, but feel free to comment.
Baseline is August, heavily armored, dumb as box of rocks. Looking at the classes that could work with the stat spread.
Oracle
Keeps the same playstyle - wear heavy armor and swing a sword. Just add a lot of divine spellcasting.
Life - Great for keeping others alive. Not so great for keeping August alive.
Lunar - Animal companion, combat buffs
Battle - combat buffs
Lore - What, suddenly August knows things!?!
Bard
Skills! Lots of versatility. Good buffs for everyone
Limited to light armor
Skald
As bard, but rage for everyone (good thing or not?)
Limited to medium armor
Bloodrager
Melee powerhouse, but adds little else.
Limited to medium armor
Psychic bloodline sorcerer
Full armor, full arcane casting. What's not to like?
Summoner
Dragon-like mount?
Limited to light armor
Eldritch scion magus
Holy smiting spellstrike, batman! Compete on dps olympics with Zuriel.
Limited to light armor
Mesmerist/Medium
I think occult classes were ruled out in the beginning
I like the sound of Eldritch. Might consider sorcerer/ dragon bloodline. I think that would be an interesting meshing of arcane and divine. Natural armor, which stacks with normal armor.
Aside from being busy, and then out of town for a week, I've been waiting to see what directions others might be going in. Gavia was originally built around the other characters to cover some gaps, so I wanted to see what the new situation might be like before locking into something specific. The biggest single question for me is whether August would be able to handle healing by taking Oracle as his second class.
If he does go with Oracle, Gavia could make some changes that would allow her to help out directly in melee. I could drop Precise Treatment and Healing Hands for a different trait and feat, and spend the extra ability score points to raise DEX and CON to acceptable combat levels, probably best to shave a point INT as well. I'd need to go with something that will work well with DEX to attack and damage. The three best options would be:
1. Daring Champion Cavalier: This works surprisingly well. Very similar to Swashbuckler, but less tanky in exchange for Order (probably Dragon), Challenge, and Tactician. Order of the Dragon stays in line with Gavia more as a combat support character, handing out buffs to others, and a bonus to aid another. Gets Gavia a good FORT save.
2. Swashbuckler: Same as Cavalier, except better personal defenses and more devoted to doing damage than support. Probably better to switch Investigator archetypes to keep studied combat bonus rather than giving them away to others as she does now (won't matter until 4th level anyway).
3. Magus: Would also need to be DEX based. Gets arcane casting, which we otherwise won't have. Probably better to switch Investigator archetypes to keep studied combat bonus rather than giving them away to others as she does now (won't matter until 4th level anyway). Alchemy extracts can only really be used out of combat.
If August doesn't go with Oracle and Gavia remains the primary source of healing, it's probably better for Gavia to keep her current build as is and use the extra ability points for more general sturdiness while going with either Wizard, Witch, Sage Sorcerer, or Psychic.
1. Wizard: The strongest casting choice due to the best spell list. Remember that Alchemist has all the basics for healing as extracts. It's easier to use alchemy for healing a bunch if Gavia has another spell list to draw on for other things.
2. Witch: Weaker spell list, but hexes for debuffing. The Herb Witch archetype is a pretty good healer, especially if condition removal is needed.
3. Psychic: The Faith discipline allows a Psychic to convert spells to channels similar to a Cleric. The spell list is narrower, but that can be worked around by focusing more on support and utility spells while diversifying the types of saves offensive spells allow.
4. Sage Sorcerer: Casts off INT rather than CHA. Most similar to Wizard (same spell list) trading spell flexibility for more spells per day.
One thing to remember is that taking a full caster as a second class doesn't make Gavia any worse in combat than she already is, which is admittedly pretty bad. Psychic lets her keep armor, while the others just require Mage Armor to make up the difference. She can still poke at things with a spear with her 3/4 BAB, and would have Studied Combat bonuses if she changed archetypes. I think in the case of a full caster gestalt she's better giving those studied combat bonuses to August and Zuriel though.
There is one oddball choice. Living Grimoire Inquisitor casts off INT rather than WIS. Casting is prepared and from the Inquisitor spell list. The book is a weapon that can be enchanted like a Warpriest can enchant weapons, and it gets the same damage dice improvements that Warpriest weapons do. No bane or judgements, which means damage won't be great, but in return Gavia would have double casting with all the healing and condition removal spells on both lists. Maybe this works best as an intimidate build? I wouldn't choose Living Grimoire normally, too marginal to bad I think. But this is gestalt so I don't have all my eggs in one basket. Besides this module goes to around level 7 or 8 right? Probably not so much of a stinker archetype at lower levels.
@August: I think you're right about Life Oracle's Life Link. My understanding is an Oradin uses it along with Lay on Hands to heal up from the HP drain each round. However, if you're also the main to only melee front line, it's a problem for you. Oradin is better to support another melee character or two.
I don't think you'd get much from Lore unless you're wanting it for Sidestep Secret because you're going to raise CHA. Mental Acuity isn't available until 7th level, and is a slow burn for raising INT. You also don't have many skill points. Gavia has all the knowledges covered anyway.
Battle could be really good for you. There are Revelations to improve your initiative and make to tougher to knock you out of a fight. The lower level mystery spells are useful, and you're still a full divine caster.
Time also has lots of good stuff to choose from although the lower level mystery spells aren't very good.
I think one of us should have arcane casting. August has the options with psychic sorc and ES magus, if Gavia doesn't want to go that route. Zuriel's inquisitor could cover the divine magic needs.
As far as skills go, Gavia has knowledges covered and Zuriel all the rest. So August can continue to suck on that area.
So zuriel that’s a fair point I may simply stick to just rogue hit dice then. But feats that give more like the ones you mentioned are legal however!
August my thoughts are that with gestalt they boost power and versatility. Doubling down on healing is an idea so you could have channels and other forms of buffs for yourself and others. My take is oracle is a good choice as well as magus. Though I’m partial to oracle as I’m a sucker for thematics.
Gavia my take is similar to yours. I’m partial to hedge witch for some hexes to give some debuffing as well as casting. I don’t think melee will be necessary with the other two likely turning into melee powerhouses. With investigator you could mix it up if necessary as you won’t be as unprepared as most casters in melee.
The module does go to 7 if I’m correct with the ending technically pushing you to 8. However the option I originally had on the table if we were consistent to a degree and enjoyed the game was for a continuation into an idea I had. But that’s less if a concern at the moment.
Yeah, witch works just fine for me. But, thinking about more I don't think Herb Witch would be a good choice. It takes too many early hexes. I would have anything except for the mandatory Cauldron until 4th level.
Bonded Witch would be better. It only replaces the familiar (I'm not a fan of pet classes generally) with a bonded item simiolar to a Wizard's.
Please just pick a patron that gives haste spell :)
Sorry for the late update between the holidays getting sick myself as well as everyone else it’s been rough.
Just checking there has been no update from anyone. I’ll bump thread as well:
Hi, I'll be on vacation until January 4th.
Sorry for the long silence. This December was stressful with everything going on. Im getting back into sorts but thinking unfortunately that I am gonna step away from the game.
I’ve been pulled in a lot of different directions with life and it’s been hard to find joy in some of the things I’ve done before. DM’ing on the boards is something that has grown increasingly difficult to find enjoyment in. I’m sorry for leaving you all with an unfulfilled game, and wish I had the time and the energy to keep going with the game. I did enjoy the game very much and am glad to have gotten the chance to run this for all of you. I wish the best for all of you and your games.
No worries. Life is too short to spend it on something you are not enjoying.
Thanks for the game so far, it was fun while it lasted.
@everyone: It was nice playing with you all!
Understandable, thank you for keeping the game going for as long as you have. Best wishes from me as well.
@ August: If you are looking for a game August, I have a game I've been running for a bit and have an open slot available if you're interested. Gavia is currently in that game playing Bryndis and the game has been going fairly well so fare. Take a look at it and see if it's something that would appeal to you. The Rusty Flagon Inn
The group is currently at level 3 and you can see what classes are being played in the game thread. Muziel, the groups wizard, has recently had to step down, so his spot is currently open.
Thanks for the offer @Zuriel. Sounds interesting, I'll PM you.