Level 15 feedback

We just played Shimmerstone Mine with a few friends. The adventure was nice.

As usual, we faced Legendary DC checks to perform trivial tasks... Like opening a locker. Our Vesk Soldier shreds the locker to pieces with his little finger, no need for an artificial check. It really breaks verissimilitude when you're supposed to play what could be considered a hero. But well, that's more of an adventure design issue than a system issue.

Combats were trivial. SF2 characters are, in my opinion, significantly stronger than PF2 characters. Overall, I haven't felt any form of danger. But that's not a massive issue per se, GMs can just put stronger challenges against the PCs. I'm just a bit sad that bringing a PF2 class in SF2 will certainly lead to a downgrade (and bringing a SF2 class in PF2 will be broken).

I really think there should be a discussion on Augmentations. At these levels, Augmentations give a significant boost to characters (Dermal Plating is crazy good). But not all players want their characters to go through surgery. I know I have lots of issues with Augmentations and I'm unsettled by using them on my characters. It may be cultural or whatever. But I don't want to play cyborgs all the time, I don't want to be forced to play cyborgs to keep up with my teammates. There should be alternate ways of getting these boosts, especially when they are so strong that all characters should consider them.

SF2 spells are stronger than PF2 spells. There are really a lot of incredible spells that are balanced against the best PF2 spells. Akashic Revival is near invulnerability, Rocket Dash is crazy good, Time's Edge, X-Ray Vision, etc... I'm fine with that, caster could use a little boost.

Maps are super big. And I find that excellent, it really changes how you fight, it forces you to completely reconsider your spells. It also gives much more weight to the crazy areas of high level spells. I hope SF2 will keep bigger and bigger maps when gaining levels and increase the importance of high mobility. I even think it be good in PF2.

There are tons of reactions. It was a reaction pinata. Often, for an action to come to a term we needed to proceed to 3 or 4 reactions. That's... a lot. It slows down fights. Of course, we were not specialist of high level play so it took more time than it should have. But still, I question the number of reactions.

As a Witchwarper, I haven't used my Quantum Field at all. There are no feats or abilities that could make it anywhere close to useful at that level. Gaining 5 feet of speed when you have 50ft. speed is a joke. And a 10 ft. radius burst when you are moving 100 ft. per round to chase enemies is unusable.

The Envoy in our game really loved it. I think the class becomes really nice when it takes levels.

The Mystic was healing all the damage the enemies could deal. In my opinion, there's a power issue here.

Well, I think I covered everything or close to. Overall, it was a nice and positive experience. Keep up the good job.

This tracks. The balance in SF2e has felt completely out of whack with PF2e in ways that have nothing to do with deliberate, targeted innovation, augmentations using their own limit means nobody has any real reason to not heavily mod their body, and the Witchwarper often does better when they ignore their class mechanic rather than lean into it due to how clunky it is.

I won't go into details with the overall balance of the playtest or the Witchwarper's design, as there are dedicated threads for those already, but I will say that the solution to augmentations is simple, in my opinion: just use the graft system from Pathfinder's Howl of the Wild book. Augmentations are effectively grafts already, and the graft rules are both significantly more thorough and better-balanced by dint of using the invested item limit, meaning players get to choose between enhancing their bodies or investing more regular magic items. It's pretty clear to me that the augmentation and graft systems are the product of two teams in the same company designing the same system without knowing of each other's work, so now that grafts are public knowledge, might as well use those existing rules.

I really think there should be a discussion on Augmentations. At these levels, Augmentations give a significant boost to characters (Dermal Plating is crazy good). But not all players want their characters to go through surgery. I know I have lots of issues with Augmentations and I'm unsettled by using them on my characters. It may be cultural or whatever. But I don't want to play cyborgs all the time, I don't want to be forced to play cyborgs to keep up with my teammates. There should be alternate ways of getting these boosts, especially when they are so strong that all characters should consider them.

I think this is especially important, particularly not wanting your character to go in for surgery and how that can be a feelsbad when strict, mechanical power is tied to that.

Like, one of the big literary sourcepoints for these sorts of cybernetic augmentations is the cyberpunk genre, where augmenting one's body is explicitly framed as being dehumanizing, about bodies being co-opted by an over-reaching and uncaring capitalist system; it's something that gets glossed over a lot when we get wrapped up in how cool those augmentations look.
But, just as it's kinda icky to frame someone with augmentations as less human, it does also feel kinda weird when the game is encouraging that reduction in bodily autonomy by making certain augments just too good to pass up.

I think this is especially important, particularly not wanting your character to go in for surgery and how that can be a feelsbad when strict, mechanical power is tied to that.

Like, one of the big literary sourcepoints for these sorts of cybernetic augmentations is the cyberpunk genre, where augmenting one's body is explicitly framed as being dehumanizing, about bodies being co-opted by an over-reaching and uncaring capitalist system; it's something that gets glossed over a lot when we get wrapped up in how cool those augmentations look.
But, just as it's kinda icky to frame someone with augmentations as less human, it does also feel kinda weird when the game is encouraging that reduction in bodily autonomy by making certain augments just too good to pass up.

To play devil's advocate, there's actually a lot of narrative power behind augmentations being strictly mechanically superior to no mods but undesirable on the grounds of inhumanity. Everyone and their mother has heard about the moral dilemma of harvesting the Little Sisters in Bioshock, there's drugs and alcohol in Disco Elysium, the list truly does go on. Perhaps most relevant is Prey (2017) and its neuromods, where the most powerful ones replace more and more of your genetic material with alien stuff until things like turrets no longer recognize you as human. The playtest's augmentation mechanics very much parallel these types of tradeoffs!... But I would definitely argue that Starfinder Seond Edition's core rules are not the greatest place to explore these themes. I second Teridax's idea to make augments work like Grafts.

I also have reservations about making body modification (which can feel like body horror to some and character defining to others) a baseline assumption. At minimum, I would allow a sort of "wearable tech" option that makes augmentations effectively worn gear from an in-world standpoint but functions normally mechanically. It would be better if none of them felt hugely powerful (dermal plating) and slotted into existing systems (grafts) rather then being their own thing that are semi-required.

Also yes, Mystic is REALLY powerful at healing. I was in a climactic laser fight, cast resist fire on myself, and laughed. They couldn't take the healer down at all, and with cover and smart play I could keep my team up astoundingly well.

While I think implants contributing to the investiture limit is probably fine (Handwave it as including magical components), treating augmentation as something dehumanizing runs into some pretty nasty real life stuff experienced by those with prosthetics or complex medical devices, so I suspect that's why the devs do not wish to use those tropes.

I like augmentations being an option to use not a requirement to keep up with the math, but certainly could be one of the ways to keep up with the math. I like that there are different flavors/types of augmentations that fit different character concepts.

The way my characters use augmentations tends to fall into 4 categories.
1. None at all.
2. Only augmentations that don't show or alter appearance.
3. Has some augmentations, it's ok if they show.
4. Can't have enough, if there is no meat left over that's fine.

I don't think we need to go the way of Cyberpunk 2020-style cyberpsychosis for characters, although something similar could explain the behavior of NPC or opponents. Star Wars has plenty of examples of cybernetics on both sides, and in some cases being used as a fashion statement, like the Mods in Book of Boba Fett.

I don't know much about PF2e grafts. I do like that they share the character's investment limit with magic items I think this makes for an interesting balance between using tech and magic. I'm not opposed to using the mechanics/math grafts use, if all the Starfinder augmentations can keep their flavor. I would still call Starfinders version augmentations even if they worked the same, that way if a character had both a graft and augmentations it is easier to tell if they came PF2e or SF2e.

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On the subject of SF2 characters are, significantly stronger than PF2 characters. I haven't tested that, but I'm wondering if their is a difference between making a wizard in SF2e using Starfinder spells, and a wizard from PF2e using PF2e spells time traveling to the SF2e timeline?

On the flip side, how balanced would a Solarian made in PF2e with no access to SF2e equipment do in PF2e?

In starfinder 1e pretty I went full borg, I was playing a melee solarian and there was a good leg mod that boosted speed that let me get into melee super quick, once I started I thought how much of my characters body could I replace until I stopped being my character (ship of thesus) you know you have gone off the deep end when you are adding necromantic flesh nodules to your brain. That was kind of fun from a cool thing as long as I don't overthink it perspective.

Now personally I am ok with augmenting yourself being more powerful and have faith wealth constraints will mostly balance it.

I think most people who get shot at on daily basis would see the merits of bullet resistant skin and being in that environment most people would get on board not to fall behind.