what is the best archer?

I believe there was errata for the scout class adding open lock and disable device to the class skills.I don't remember where I saw it though.

for the record, the super-fast archer build with barbarian and scout levels doesnt work, because the scouts fast movement ability is an enhancement bonus to move. hate to be the spoilsport, but reread the scouts fast movement entry.

tog

I believe there was errata for the scout class adding open lock and disable device to the class skills.I don't remember where I saw it though.

Disable Device, yes, is on the WotC official errata page. Open Lock is not mentioned in the errata, so I'd have to check my copy of Complete Adventurer.

-The Gneech

for the record, the super-fast archer build with barbarian and scout levels doesnt work, because the scouts fast movement ability is an enhancement bonus to move.

Nah, not a spoil-sport - that's the sort of double-checking I need! So as an enhancement bonus, that means Boots of Striding and Springing won't work once the Scout gets +10' and that ExpRet will replace the +10' or +20' base move. Right? At least the +10' from Barbarian isn't an enhancement bonus!

Darn, that sucks. :D

Lessee - that leaves him at... 60' max base (30' +10' barbarian, +20' Scout), right? Times five for the Run feat and he's moving at 300' per round, max. Cast ExpRet and it only goes up to 70' because only the highest enhancement bonus applies, so the +20' Scout is replaced by the +30' of the spell. That gives him 350' for five rounds of spell duration.

Ah, well...
;)

While you guys are looking for your mounted archer you might want to think about a Paladin. I know that alot of times that sounds almost like the anti-thesis of a real archer, but they get the magical mount and I know in one of the sourcebooks(maybe the comple divine?) I have seen a ranged smite ability. Just a thought.

http://hyboria.xoth.net/prestige-classes/hyborian_ranger.htm
Hyborian Ranger, one of The Koga's favorite classes..

While you guys are looking for your mounted archer you might want to think about a Paladin. I know that alot of times that sounds almost like the anti-thesis of a real archer, but they get the magical mount and I know in one of the sourcebooks(maybe the comple divine?) I have seen a ranged smite ability. Just a thought.

Ooh! Samarrah of the Steppes, Avenger of the Light and Arrow of the Law. Mounted on a celestial steed, and able to pincushion her evil nemeses like a voodoo doll! Never thought about this concept before, but it's kind of cool. I'll have to look at complete divine. The riding skills are there--and I suppose there must be other ways to offset the lost feats with spells and such to enhance archery magically.

In my opinion, being an archer means you rely on distance. So, for me: Start as a Scout, get farshot, go Deepwood Sniper, get a comp. greatbow of distance, use flight arrows, use the hawkeye spell... ( < via a magic item in my mind... )

A lv. that gives you sneak attack would work rather nicely with the Sniper's Shot spell as well. No range limit on a sneak attack...

A lv. that gives you sneak attack would work rather nicely with the Sniper's Shot spell as well. No range limit on a sneak attack...

You might want to reconsider that:

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

I think he was referring to a spell that removes that normal restriction (normally you are correct).

For the record, I am still very fond of the Cleric Archer.

Sean Mahoney

Seems there are lots of interesting answers - which is a good thing for the game. I think the best class and race for an archer depends on how many books are in use. If its just core rules I might go with a ranger but if many books are legal then I feel that Human fighter is a pretty amazing archer. In my opinion an archer is all about the feats and you want to stack as many of them as possible onto the chosen weapon. Keeping the rate of fire high while also increasing the hit percentage and the amount of damage done sucks up feats like crazy but when their stacked like mad they can be phenomenally effective.

That's a good point; what books/house rules are being used?

Amusingly, a friend of mine challenged me to come up with the most powerful 20th level characters I could design using just the PHB, using 32-point Point Buy for the ability scores and limiting inherent bonuses to no more than +4 on a single score and +6 total. One of them was a Human Ranger 12/Fighter 8.

16 Str, 24 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha (+2 Str, +4 Dex)

Feats (*-bonus feats): Dodge*, Endurance*, Far Shot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting*, Greater Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)*, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*, Manyshot, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run*, Track*, Two-Weapon Fighting*, Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)*, Weapon Specialization (Composite Longbow)*

Given some magic items (especially Belt of Giant Strength +6, Boots of Expeditious Retreat (by the rules a 4,000gp worth item), Bracers of Greater Archery, Gloves of Dexterity +6, and a +5 Mighty (+6 Str bonus) Distance Speed Composite Longbow), he/she is a very good ranged attack specialist, with some ability in melee (using two-weapon fighting). Alternately, a Ranger 8/Fighter 8/Rogue 4 picks up some extra damage ability with Sneak Attack, while losing +1 from the BAB, two effective Druid levels for the Animal Companion, a third Favored Enemy, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, and some spell ability.

I think he was referring to a spell that removes that normal restriction (normally you are correct).

Sean Mahoney

Yes, the spell removes the range limitation from sneak attacks.

But in my last post, I forgot to mention another spell vital to said ranged attacks. "Guided Shot"

It removes any range penalty from your next ranged attack and negates any miss chance granted by cover, except for total cover.

But, I was wondering. When you are determining your range increment, in what order to you add/multiply the bonus from a item, feat, class ability, spell, etc?

I've always figured it this way: First start with the comp. greatbow ( 130' ), then add the farshot feat ( + 50% = 195' ), then add the Deepwood Sniper's range increment bonus ( +10' per lv. = 295' *), then add the Hawkeye spell ( +50% = 442.5'), finally, add the flight arrows ( +25' = 467.5')...

(*This is assuming that you are a lv 10 Deepwood Sniper)

By my calculations, you now have a range increment of 467.5'. Allowing you to make ranged attacks to a range of 4675'. Add Guided Shot, you remove the range penalty. Add Sniper's Shot, you can make it a ranged sneak attack.

But personally, I find the keen arrows, enhanced critical threat ranges, and multipliers from the Deepwood Sniper levels better than sneak attacks...

While you guys are looking for your mounted archer you might want to think about a Paladin. I know that alot of times that sounds almost like the anti-thesis of a real archer, but they get the magical mount and I know in one of the sourcebooks(maybe the comple divine?) I have seen a ranged smite ability. Just a thought.

There are two ways to get ranged smite: a feat in BOED gives you the ability to use smites ranged (retaining your ability to smite in melee) or racial substitution level 1st for Elf Paladin in Races of the Wild (but with this you lose the ability to smite in melee, but gain additional uses of ranged smite where a paladin would normally get additional uses of melee smite.)

That's a good point; what books/house rules are being used?

Amusingly, a friend of mine challenged me to come up with the most powerful 20th level characters I could design using just the PHB, using 32-point Point Buy for the ability scores and limiting inherent bonuses to no more than +4 on a single score and +6 total. One of them was a Human Ranger 12/Fighter 8.

My concern with mixing the ranger in there would be that the rangers Animal Companion and Spells are woefully outclassed if the ranger does not keep pumping levels into them. Rangers is one of the classes I tend to think one has to mostly stick with all the way through. Maybe a couple of levels of fighter for those two quick bonus feats but otherwise I'd tend to head straight up the ranger level progression to keep the spells coming and keep the animal companion strong. Or I would simply skip ranger altogether and stick with fighter for the endless feats. Though I guess if one is just using the core books there might be an issue where fighters run out of really good feats to choose. Certianly if one also has the non-core books - especially the Players Handbook II then that simply won't happen.

Personally, I like the idea of pixie rogues, or maybe pixie fighter/rogues, if you want extra archery-based feats. Aside from the pixie benefits, every attack is a sneak attack! Have lots of Use Magic Device to use some of the spells mentioned above in wands or a staff made by allies.

Dragonchess Player wrote:

That's a good point; what books/house rules are being used?

Amusingly, a friend of mine challenged me to come up with the most powerful 20th level characters I could design using just the PHB, using 32-point Point Buy for the ability scores and limiting inherent bonuses to no more than +4 on a single score and +6 total. One of them was a Human Ranger 12/Fighter 8.

My concern with mixing the ranger in there would be that the rangers Animal Companion and Spells are woefully outclassed if the ranger does not keep pumping levels into them. Rangers is one of the classes I tend to think one has to mostly stick with all the way through. Maybe a couple of levels of fighter for those two quick bonus feats but otherwise I'd tend to head straight up the ranger level progression to keep the spells coming and keep the animal companion strong. Or I would simply skip ranger altogether and stick with fighter for the endless feats.

The reason I used ranger was for the favored enemy bonuses and skills; rangers can be more more versatile than fighters. The reason I used fighter was for the bonus feats to round out the fighting ability; the ranger's animal companion and spellcasting are minor benefits once you start getting above level 8 (effective Druid 4), compared to the toughness of your opponents. He's outclassed on those at high levels anyway (a polar bear isn't that much better than a black bear when facing a CR 21 monster and the ranger's spells are just as useful coming from a wand).

If I wanted to create a "pure" ranged specialist, then I would have gone Ranger 20 (or Ranger 16/Rogue 4) and chosen archery as the combat style instead of two-weapon fighting. The problem with that approach is that he's over-specialized; outside of ranged attacks, he's a mediocre combatant at best. One-trick characters don't work very well in most campaigns. Even if the DM doesn't deliberately set up the situation, there will be times when the character can't use their trick or it's ineffective. If the character doesn't have other options, they're screwed. That raging half-orc barbarian may be able to do massive damage with a greataxe, but if he can't get within melee range (Grease, illusions, minions/summoned monsters, terrain), he can be dealt with.

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

That's a good point; what books/house rules are being used?

Amusingly, a friend of mine challenged me to come up with the most powerful 20th level characters I could design using just the PHB, using 32-point Point Buy for the ability scores and limiting inherent bonuses to no more than +4 on a single score and +6 total. One of them was a Human Ranger 12/Fighter 8.

My concern with mixing the ranger in there would be that the rangers Animal Companion and Spells are woefully outclassed if the ranger does not keep pumping levels into them. Rangers is one of the classes I tend to think one has to mostly stick with all the way through. Maybe a couple of levels of fighter for those two quick bonus feats but otherwise I'd tend to head straight up the ranger level progression to keep the spells coming and keep the animal companion strong. Or I would simply skip ranger altogether and stick with fighter for the endless feats.

The reason I used ranger was for the favored enemy bonuses and skills; rangers can be more more versatile than fighters. The reason I used fighter was for the bonus feats to round out the fighting ability; the ranger's animal companion and spellcasting are minor benefits once you start getting above level 8 (effective Druid 4), compared to the toughness of your opponents. He's outclassed on those at high levels anyway (a polar bear isn't that much better than a black bear when facing a CR 21 monster and the ranger's spells are just as useful coming from a wand).

In terms of the animal companion I think there are levels of being outclassed. The Animal companion of a 12th level ranger is just woefully outclassed by CR 21 encounters while the animal companion of a 20th level ranger is still fairly effective. Especially if your using feats beyond the core rules - in which case I believe there is one that increases the rangers animal companion to the equivalent of the Druids animal companion. At 20th level that means one can take Tyranisaurus Rex as an animal Companion. Even Dragons are going to take notice with one of those is acting as your meatshield.

Personally, I like the idea of pixie rogues, or maybe pixie fighter/rogues, if you want extra archery-based feats. Aside from the pixie benefits, every attack is a sneak attack! Have lots of Use Magic Device to use some of the spells mentioned above in wands or a staff made by allies.

Have you used one? I have not but I noticed that the Arcana Evolved Pixie simply fails as an archer. The Damage is way to low and that race takes penalties to strength. It might work with the Pixie in normal D&D however.

Jeremy, yes, they rock. I’ve not seen Arcana Evolved, but take a look at the (3.5) MM, page 236. It’s a +4 level adjustment, and you lose 4 HD, but the benefits are fantastic.
Stats: -4 Str, +8 Dex, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha. If you use the elite array, stick 14 in Strength and the penalty goes away.
Tons of skill points.
Excellent defenses: Continuous greater improved invisibility, fly 60 ft. (good), DR 10/cold iron, Small size (so +1 on attacks as well), Dodge as bonus feat, +1 natural armor, SR 15 + class levels.
Excellent scout: Continuous greater improved invisibility, fly 60 ft. (good), low-light vision, +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
They also get a few minor spell-like abilities, but those aren’t that important.
Like I said, you lose 4 HD, so at 20th-level a 16th-level pixie rogue has a BAB of +12, but then as they’re invisible they get a +2 attack bonus and defenders lose their Dex-bonus to AC (and +1 “higher ground” bonus if they’re flying above the opponent).
So, even though they deal base d6 damage with a longbow, who cares? That’s +8d6 sneak attack damage per hit. If they’re using a +5 bow and holy bane arrows, they’re even more fearsome. Give ‘em Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse, and they’re great in melee, too.
The downsides are when opponents use see invisibility, and/or if they are fighting creatures immune to critical hit and sneak attack damage (but the latter’s a problem to all rogues).
One way round the latter downside is to go rogue3/sorcerer6/arcane trickster7 (gives BAB +8, sneak attack +5d6, casting as sorcerer 13), or rogue3/wizard5/arcane trickster8 (gives BAB +8, sneak attack +6d6, casting as wizard 13) for a bit of magical oomph. Or possibly- if the DM allows it- a divine version of arcane trickster and then go rogue3/cleric5/arcane trickster8 (gives BAB +9, sneak attack +6d6, casting as cleric 13, stocking up on divine power). Any three of these options makes for a great support character.
Using the elite array (Str 14, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10), walloping 4-level gains into +3 Dex and +1 Con, and giving them a amulet of health +6, gauntlets of dexterity +6, gives a 16th-level pixie rogue Str 16, Dex 32, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16, a BAB of +12 (attack bonus of +27 with Small, higher ground and invisible attack mods, before allowing for weapon enhancement bonuses), +8d6 sneak attack damage (which applies to every strike against opponents who can’t see the pixie), 138 average hp, and 190 skill points (split into the following skills, with stat mods added, he could have: Bluff +22, Diplomacy +22, Disable Device +21, Gather Information +22, Listen +24, Open Lock +30, Search +23, Sense Motive +22, Spot +24, and Use Magic Device+22), PLUS all the great pixie defense and scout abilities.
Having Greater Bracers of Archery and a holy speed composite longbow (+3 Str) with flaming, frost, and shock arrows. For melee, have two holy speed shortswords (the bow and shortswords each cost about 72,000 gp, 50 of those arrows cost 32,000 gp). Have a wand of greater magic weapon +5, a wand of divine power, and a ring (or something) that gives Use Magic Device a +10 competence modifier.
I think that makes for a pretty good archer/rogue, with an interesting background. I’m assuming your thinking of a PC right- because officially they are “Always Neutral Good”. If you’re the DM, I’d suggest pixies of any alignment. Of course, your milage may vary.