[Concentration] Problem and possible solution

Like several others, I don’t really like that the Concentration skill has been rolled into Spellcraft. While I really like that Pathfinder RPG is condensing skills down (for example, I support rolling Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft together), I think Concentration and Spellcraft are different enough concepts that they shouldn’t just be combined into one generic “Magic” skill.

But then what? All Concentration really does is let casters throw around their spells in combat. It technically can be used by anyone trying to perform delicate skills amidst distraction, but few GMs ever run with that concept, and the skill itself doesn’t appear on any non-spellcaster skill lists. I think the solution to having Concentration being just an extra Magic skill is to expand what Concentration can do and who can take it.

So let’s brainstorm. Here are my thoughts:

First, Concentration should be added to the skill lists of the martial classes, plus Aristocrats.

Secondly, here are some thoughts on additional, non-magical uses for Concentration.

Composure (trained only): Mental discipline can allow the adventurer to remain calm and composed in the face of taunts, insults, and even magic. The character may opt to make an opposed check against someone attempting to rankle him with Bluff or Intimidate, pitting his Concentration against the taunter’s Bluff or Intimidate check. Success indicates he is unaffected. In addition, the character may choose to make a Concentration check in lieu of a saving throw against emotion-altering magic, such as Calm Emotions or Rage; a failed Concentration check has the same results as a failed save.

Ignore Pain (trained only): As a Swift Action, a character can grit their teeth and ignore the effects of pain. With a successful Concentration check (DC equal to 15, plus the pain’s associated penalty) the adventurer can ignore the penalty from pain until the beginning of their next turn.

Stay Awake: An adventurer often needs to stay awake for extended periods, either on-watch when deep in dangerous territory or simply lacking the time or comfort to sleep. A conditioned individual can remain awake for 20 hours without penalty, but afterwards must begin making hourly Concentration checks, DC equals 10. The DC increases by +1 for every additional check. Failure indicates the character is Fatigued and takes a –2 penalty to all subsequent Concentration checks. A second failed check means the character is Exhausted and takes a –5 penalty to all subsequent Concentration checks. A third failed check means the character passes out for eight hours. The Concentration penalties from lack of sleep are eliminated with a good night’s rest.

Any other thoughts?

That first one I'm not liking so much. It can be fairly easy to nerf out mind affecting spells already giving someone a means to have a Will Save of + Class level + Class Bonus + Con Modifier as a skill is a bit much for me.

Other than that I think I could live with the rest of it.

That first one I'm not liking so much. It can be fairly easy to nerf out mind affecting spells already giving someone a means to have a Will Save of + Class level + Class Bonus + Con Modifier as a skill is a bit much for me.

Other than that I think I could live with the rest of it.

It isn't all mind-affecting spells, just emotion-inducing ones (which I believe is mostly limited to Cause Fear, Fear, Scare, Calm Emotions, and Rage).

Perhaps give it a bit of a change: Instead of freely opposing the spell, make it a one-time chance. If you fail your Will save vs. the Fear spell or whatnot, then on your next action, as a full-round action, you gain a chance to negate it, or perhaps cut the duration in half. This way, the spell can still shut down a Concentration-based Fighter for a round or more, but it doesn't leave poor Low-Will-Save warriors feeling like useless wusses every time they stumble across a 1st-level Wizard.

Well there is a reason fighters are low will save. However if it has a mechanic that a second save throw could be achieved it could be alright, it just shouldn't overshadow the Will Save itself.

Maybe if in addition to the full round action (mental action so it can be done even if paralyzed) the DC of the Concentration check was 10+ the original save throw DC.

Yeah it's alot harder than the first save, but this is a last ditch effort that doesn't cost a feat or anything that gives the fighter up to a + 20 + Con Mod (probably a high Con character) + 3 (if it becomes a class skill) to resist a limited resource effect.

Yeah it's alot harder than the first save, but this is a last ditch effort that doesn't cost a feat or anything that gives the fighter up to a + 20 + Con Mod (probably a high Con character) + 3 (if it becomes a class skill) to resist a limited resource effect.

Feats are no big deal for a Fighter, but it does cost them one of their very few skill points every level. Another turn at the DC might be 10+caster level of the spell effect. The intention here ultimately isn't to replace a Fighter's low Will save (Book of Nine Swords does just that, though), but just give them a sort of 'grit and determination' skill that keeps them from running in fear from wizards or dragons. Sadly, since Fighters have such terrible Will saves, they are normally the most likely (and least appropriate) to run in terror as soon as the supernatural fright gets broken out.

The unfortunate trade-off is that now, almost every class except Rogues and Barbarians will get Concentration and get access to that ability to resist fear-style spells.

Well lets not forget that fighters get that bravery thing now at second level.

Bravery gives a + 1 at 2nd level increasing every 4 levels after that to a maximum of + 5 against fear. This added in puts them up to good saves against fear effects. I think that's about all they really need.

At second level, when Fighters first get their Bravery, they have a +3 to Fort and only a +1 to Will specifically against fear effects. That 2-point difference remains about the same throughout the Fighter's career; it just seems less significant at higher levels. Add in the fact that most Fighters (not all, but certainly the vast majority) will have a higher Constitution modifier than Wisdom modifier, and you can't really call it a 'Good' save.

Perhaps a better solution would be to alter the description of Bravery: Instead of giving the Fighter a bonus to Will saves, it instead allows them to use Concentration to resist fear and emotion-control (instead of making that feature a common use of the skill) as mentioned above.

Think about it from this perspective: The Tumble skill (now Acrobatics) allows the character to avoid something that their AC would normally account for in a very specific condition. Is that unbalancing? Does it make Attacks of Opportunity useless because a few characters can avoid them?

Again, my big point here isn't to make Fighters imperious to mind-magic. But as a Fighter player, I know from repeated experience how boring and frustrating it is to spend 1d4 rounds running away, followed by 1d4 rounds running back, almost every time you encounter a wizard. My goal is to reduce all that 'useless' time to a round or two, or just spending that time shaken, instead of panicked.

If bravery was altered in the way you suggest I wouldn't mind at all, or as you seem to come to at the end if it simply reduced the "level" of the fear effect that might be worthwhile too (in addition to it's current effect).

I was looking at the fact that bravery added into the + 6 at 20th level comes out to a +11 to save versus fear.

At level two it is a +1, but at level 3 it becomes a +2 when a good save is +3. At sixth level you are + 4 compared to + 6, at tenth + 6 compared to + 7, fourteenth is + 8 compared to +9, and at eighteenth level we have +11 compared to +11.

I don't mind fighters being hard to scare but I don't think they should be immune, after all that's the paladin's shtick.

At no point have I talked about making Fighters immune to fear. At the worst, it was a single chance to make the spell essentially only cripple them for a full round. I appreciate that some things will and should scare Fighters, but it's unrealistic and no fun to have them afraid of everything. I'm envisioning Concentration as a way for them to suck it up and fight on, even if it costs them some time or means they're less effective while fighting.

That being said, I do like the idea of this house rule just being a different iteration of Bravery. It also means that my Fighter players don't have to keep saying "...unless it's against a fear effect" the same way my Rangers have to say "...Unless it's against Giants."

I find this an odd exercise. First the OP acknowledges that nobody but spellcasters really use Concentration (though there is opportunity to do so, most DMs don't, and there are some of the newer classes that use it from ToB - a questionable resource at best when looking at core 3.5), then goes on to find new uses for the skill as some kind of justification to keep it. It is nonsensical. :)

Concentration, as a CON based skill, is silly. Almost nothing that it is said to do is based on a physical effect, it's almost all mental. Most are also much more suited to a Will save than a skill check.

Good riddance to Concentration as far as I'm concerned. It was an anomalous skill that never really fit. To generate new uses for the skill when the system is trying to consolidate skills down a bit (this isn't GURPS, after all), seems counter to the direction 3.P is headed.

The problem was the way the concentration mechanic got rolled into spellcasting made it almost impossible for a wizard to not make the roll.

What the OP is suggesting is that concentration will be brought back (not a bad suggestion, something is going to change from the way beta currently is in this respect), and since it may come back we could make it more universally useful.

I realise OP isn't suggesting fighters should be immune to fear (sorry that was misunderstood) I was just trying to point out that giving a skill check in place of a save throw means that the save will be much easier to pass.

Maybe a "Gut check" ability instead of bravery where a fighter can make a fortitude save against fear instead of will save?

I find this an odd exercise. First the OP acknowledges that nobody but spellcasters really use Concentration (though there is opportunity to do so, most DMs don't, and there are some of the newer classes that use it from ToB - a questionable resource at best when looking at core 3.5), then goes on to find new uses for the skill as some kind of justification to keep it. It is nonsensical. :)

Concentration, as a CON based skill, is silly. Almost nothing that it is said to do is based on a physical effect, it's almost all mental. Most are also much more suited to a Will save than a skill check.

Good riddance to Concentration as far as I'm concerned. It was an anomalous skill that never really fit. To generate new uses for the skill when the system is trying to consolidate skills down a bit (this isn't GURPS, after all), seems counter to the direction 3.P is headed.

I've found Concentration to be a wonderful concept for a skill that never really saw much application. It's all about your character being able to grit their teeth and keep focused on the task at hand, something that provides a lot of dramatic tension in books, movies, and comics, but rarely comes up in RPGs.

As to the consolidation of skills, well... I'm very happy for some of them (Hide and Move Silently belong together, as do Disable Device + Open Lock and Listen + Spot), but the point is to tidy the game, not just to throw things out. Concentration had a purpose that was distinct and seperate from just understanding magic (the Spellcraft skill), so I'm trying to justify bringing it back out as an individual skill by making it more than just a "cast magic" skill.

I rather see a caster level check to keep your spells from getting ruined, this will make it a bit tougher for casters to get their spells to work generally though combat casting or a similar feat could help out alot.

concentration does not seem like a skill that is needed otherwise, usually can be replaced by an ability check quite easily.