How to avoid playing a lawful stupid character

You don't need to be a "godly" Paladin.

Your paladin, even been a character full of values and codes, still it's a human (or an elf, or an orc, or dwarf...). I mean, it's still passive of the flaws and desires and feelings of a human.

All the man has it's weakness.

egg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Soth

"Human" character are funny to play.

Black_Lantern wrote:

So here's the deal, I'm considering that playing a paladin would be an interesting and fun experience. The thing is that I don't understand why the class itself has so many restrictive role playing mechanics in itself. However I might just press ahead and just go with it. Now my question is, how do I play a paladin that isn't a moron that runs trying to save various people that need help. Also how do I avoid some codes contradicting each other. Is there any alternative to the paladin class that gives different codes? Perhaps for a chaotic good paladin? Thanks for everything you guys have been helping me narrow my decision down quite a lot for my up and coming pathfinder game.

What exactly do you see as contradictions and moronic about the Paladin codes?

You can't lie or cheat, so your methods for dealing with bad guys are very limited. Campaigns that rely on subterfuge will get derailed unless you have a DM who takes a liberal view on the paladin code.

Of course, there is not necessarily anything in a code that prohibits you (the paladin) from lying or cheating that would stop you from feinting in combat, using stealth to sneak up on the enemy, or simply standing by quietly while your ally tells bald faced lies to the enemy.

You can avoid playing a "lawful stupid" character, by not playing him as "stupid". I disagree with those in this thread who insist that a paladin is "superman".

Get with your GM, and come to an understanding. There should be no "suddenly, you FALL!" moments. A paladin knows what his code is, and isn't. If you're in a game where someone is trying to MAKE you fall, find another game.

Detect Evil should be able to detect shades of gray. The description even indicates that extreme evil should be palpable to the paladin. There are those who lie to their loved-ones, and there are those who enjoy kicking puppies, and there are those who are worshiping evil deities at their basement shrines. A paladin will know when to rebuke someone and remind them that "Iomedae knows your heart" and when it's time to bare steel and "Cleanse this place".

And think of your paladin in the larger world sense: he's a member of an organization, after all. Those hierophants and abbots and ranking knights send him out into the world to do good things and be a force for good, not to get himself arrested trying to free the slaves in Absalom. A young paladin would realize he needs to turn a blind eye to institutionalized evil and instead work on "the more practical good", rather than throw himself into the gears.

Other works of ltteratur ethat have good paladin types:

Paksennarion in The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon (even her paladins vary, not just the main character)

Michael Carpenter in the Dresden Files

And I might even suggest the War God's Own, but that's more of a CG Barbarian/paladin.

In the book Karga Kull, Biri Darr was a paladin that escorted a person with a believedly evil item because that carriers code meant never opening the package. She defended him to her allies. Different ideas on code.

1. I always saw Elric as LE, maybe it comes from the old view of Lawful as representing civilization ala 3 Hearts & 3 Lions, but he has always seemed pretty lawful to me.

2. Not all paladins interpret the code the same way.

a. respect legitimate authority - could be whatever the local government is or could consider authority from some sources (say evil outsiders like Asmodeus) to be illegitimate.

b. act with honor - refuse to have anything to do with lying or cheating or does not act with dishonor but also does not require others to follow the paladin's honor, allows misconceptions to stand uncorrected, allows others to lie as long as the lies do not cause direct harm the person being lied to &c.

c. help those in need - doing whatever every little group of peasants wants the paladin to do or realize that sometimes the best help is to force people to deal with their own problems, which means a paladin will not leave someone stranded in a well but a village should take of their own bandit problem and become stronger rather than become more dependent on others.

d. punish those who harm or threaten innocents - punish all criminals but who among us is without sin, are those innocents really all that innocent?

(just some examples of how the interpretation can vary of the paladin code)

3. It is up the the GM. If you wish to interpret the paladin's code in a non-stupid way, then come up with a non-stupid interpretation and clear it with your GM. Your GM might accept yours, modify it or insist upon the lawful stupid code, decide whether you want to play a paladin based upon the GM's decision.

4. Read (and possibly refer your GM to) some of the stories of Charlemagne's paladins (the origin of the term although not necessarily the idea). Roland was pretty lawful stupid, but Oliver was Lawful clever.

5. If you want the flavor of a paladin but cannot produce a code you can play with, consider other classes (like the inquisitor) which can be played in a paladinesque fashion.

In D&D / Pathfinder, you can be some stupid little first level Paladin and the GM can write up a 10th level chaotic evil rogue that tells him to murder a baby or he will murder two babies. There is no possible way a first level paladin can out maneuver a 10th level rogue, but the romantic idea of a paladin requires that he be able to.

That's not really an issue with the Paladin. Pretty much any good-aligned heroic-type person at that point would be "No, I'm going to try to kill you instead of letting you kill a baby", even if it meant almost certain death.

For the original archetypical paladin, think the Knights of the Round Table from the King Arthur legend. The best example really is Lancelot, who was basically invulnerable in battle and had a superhuman "strength of ten men" so long as his heart was pure and good, but as soon as he went off the path of righteousness (he betrayed his vows and slept with his liege lord's wife, just to start with) he lost all that. He also goes kind of crazy. He eventually manages to find atonement, though, after seeing the holy grail.

Those guys were the archetypical paladin. They would not break their word, they would not run from a battle, they were completely fearless.

If that's the kind of character you want to play, then go for it. Go all the way. Don't be a jerk to the other players, don't be stupid for the sake of being stupid. If a situation calls for stealth, or if you can get help in your noble quest from others, then by all means do that. Pick your battles, do the most good you can in the best way that you know how. But if you are in a situation where honor or the protection of innocents or the command of your King means you have to attack despite overwhelming odds, then you lower your lance, and charge, go out in a blaze of glory if that's what you have to do. Have fun with it. Dying of old age is for NPC's. (Or, to quote the Wheel of Time books, "Duty is as heavy as a mountain, death is as light as a feather". ;) )