I finally read the "Walker" rules in SW Sci-Fi. Whoever wrote that should be sacked. I think I know less about how to play this game for having read the rules. What happens when I fire a laser? What are the modifiers?
Sorry - I set out to learn this system today, but I may be complaining too much. Feel free to put me in my place.
Like, why does it matter if I string three aces together and end up with a 29 to-hit for a missile.
There are these things called "Raises", which happen every 4 points above the TN (Target Number) you need to succeed. So at 8 points you get 1 Raise, at 12 points you get 2 Raises, etc. Raises often mean that things go much better than normal - for instance, a Raise on an attack means you get to add an extra d6 to the *damage* roll.
> Attacker Rolls K(EW) for every missile fired, then also roll the Wild Dice once (a 4 is a success).
> Defender Rolls K(EW) against every Attacker roll success, and adds +2 to the result of each roll for AMCM (Anti-Missile Counter Measures). Each success negates 1 Attacker success.
Nope, there's this thing in SW called an "opposed roll" so the attacker's roll values become the TN the defender needs to roll higher than to avoid being hit.
It appears from a later post that you've figured out opposed rolls, but I'm including this info for Darwin.Also, I must absolutely insist that we eliminate either "Inches" or "Yards" from the game lexicon. I vote to never use the word "Inches" again in this game. Ever.
Atlas has only used "yards" one time, when he said "Your sensor package has a range of 1000 yards, which is 500 inches".
Unfortunately, "inches" IS the standard term that Savage Worlds uses, and 1" equals 2 yards (equals one square on a "normal" map, but not here). ALL the weapon ranges are in INCHES. I'm afraid you'll just have to get used to that.
Savage World "Feats"? What the hell are you referring to? What is Mass Combat?
Atlas only used "Feats" once, when he said "If you want to spend Hindrances to get Ace (you can get up to two feats that way anyway...". He meant "Edges" (when you know more than one system, it's easy to mix up their naming conventions).
Mass Combat is an alternative set of melee rules designed to abstract the fighting even more. So far, we're using the "standard" melee rules.
I can't speak to your frustrations about the missile mechanics, that's entirely in Atlas' domain. Altho to my mind, the simplest solution would be to roll your K(EW) dice, and set the TN to 4 as for any other kind of "shooting". Give every kind of missile a different built-in bonus for its internal guidance mechanism, and then make the TN 6 to represent the AMCM of the target. That's the "fast,furious,fun" (Savage Worlds' mantra) way to do it.
ALL - I know learning a new system can be tough, and we're starting with a fairly complex subset of that system. But hang in there, it'll make sense as you go...
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Okay, buncha stuff buncha stuff.
For starts, yes, I fully realize this is learning a new system for some, which is why I'm starting out in such a basic simulation. Here we can all learn together, and all the mishaps in the learning curve don't affect anything.
Yes, later on, when we all know all the rules, the campaign itself is a wild, hair-spinning, head-turning roller-coaster of political intrigue, making money, and fighting off the all the back stabbing (and there is a lot.)
First Imma say that much of what ZenFox said is right--almost ALL numbers in SW are Inches. This is for the table-top reference (and the conversion is that 2 yards = 1 inch.) Hence, the range of the SRM, 100/200/400, is in inches. It would actually be more work to convert all the numbers into yards. (Of note, this is even so in the base SW game--all ranges are in inches.)
On missiles: Yes, the Opposed Roll is intrinsic to SW, BUT I can see how we can change it, if you like.
The proposed solution is fine: For each mech I can take an "Average" for their Know(EW) skill, add +2 for AMCM, and just post that number. (Note, since the defender wins on ties in this example, that is the number that you must -exceed- to get a hit.)
Would that be better?
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It's the opposing forces' turn.
Do you want me to take their actions, or do you want more questions answered first?
Mind you, what happened in combat just now, where one missiles out of four hit, is a good example of why I've been opposed to making missile fire a standard to-hit number--there's some random chance with it, as you never when the other guy is gonna roll low when you roll high.
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I finally read the "Walker" rules in SW Sci-Fi. Whoever wrote that should be sacked. I think I know less about how to play this game for having read the rules. What happens when I fire a laser? What are the modifiers?
Mind you, with lasers that is the basic roll: You take your Shooting, add modifiers (range, etc,) and if your get a 4 or better, you hit.
This has just been an example of how my brain works. I stand by my position that Inches makes no f&#*ing sense in PbP, and should be stricken from Paizo, and the Internet, and the English language, just to be safe.
The compromise on Missile combat seems like a good improvement.
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Buncha stuff, buncha stuff.
I was all set to put up a resounding defense of my way of missile combat...until I remembered that SW -already- has answered the question. There is the "Parry" stat, which is, simply, one half your fighting die, +2.
That is, that is the target number the enemy needs to hit you in melee, and it can be increased simply by getting better at fighting AND it gets better if you have defensive stuff, like shield.
Hence!
We can have the...um, what's a good name for this? Your KEW stat? Your Missile Defence Target Number (MDTN)? Anyway, ya, it'll be half your K(EW) die, +2. And then you can always add in any other defenses, like AMCM.
Okay, for the rest of this combat, the MDTN to hit the Opposing Force (OP4) mechs will by _6_.
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@MAx, what do you propose we call a square in the tabletop map grid? I suppose it makes no difference what we call it, since the title "inches" is given academically and then never mentioned again in the book. It could be "yards" or "decimeters" or "furlongs" for all I care.
If you now want to use the term "yard" from now on....first, we're going to say "meter" because that's what the rest of the world says, and, second, if it ever come to it, 1 "meter" just happens to = 2 yards. =p
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You know what's weird about Battletech is that the game system is 40 years old, so these futuristic mechs feel low-tech. Missiles in BT must not have any kind of guidance system. It's like shooting old bazookas where you have to actually aim them and then they fly along a straight trajectory until they run out of fuel. I'm not going to build a $100 Million Mech and put four bazookas on it.
Again, I keep forgetting that not everyone on the planet grew up reading BattleTech lore (even if they SHOULD have!) so you might not know some cardinal points....
The Inner Sphere (again, the inhabited region of space that mankind has colonized) was once united under a single flag of the Star League. Peace and prosperity flourished and technology advanced.
Alas, then came the Armanis Civil War. Stefan Armanis, The Ursurper, lead a (spoiler) civil war that broke asunder the Star League and caused the savior of mankind, General Aleksandr Kerensky, to take anything worth having and leave the Inner Sphere.
This left a massive power vacuum, into which came the five Great Houses: House Davion, that rules the Federated Suns (the area of space that your training Academy inhabits); their erstwhile allies, House Steiner, that rules the Lyran Commonwealth; their primary enemy, House Kurita, that rules the Draconis Combine, and their "allies", House Marik that rules the Free Worlds League, and House Liao that rules the Capellan Confederation.
Each of the leaders of the Great Houses declared themselves First Lord of the Star League and, during your characters' time, there have been three massive "Succession wars" that, through the shear scale of violence, have decimated many of the advances in technology that mankind had enjoyed, and made what once was commonplace, now rare and wondrous.
One example of this are targeting systems on missiles. You are correct in that missiles are "dumber" than even our contemporary systems
Does this help?
@MAx, what do you propose we call a square in the tabletop map grid?
If it were up to me, I would call a square a square, and have it equal 10 yards. 10 yards feels like the amount of space any single mech occupies on the battlefield at any given moment.
Does this help?
Yes, this is pretty interesting.
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@MAx, what do you propose we call a square in the tabletop map grid?If it were up to me, I would call a square a square, and have it equal 10 yards. 10 yards feels like the amount of space any single mech occupies on the battlefield at any given moment.
That is a GREAT idea! We will totally do that! =D
(That I had said that each square was 5 inches, and that 5 inches is 10 yards, will, I'm sure, bother Maximillian not at all. X)
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Does this help?Yes, this is pretty interesting.
Alright. Now, for Darwin's request, we can have the following:
On your turn, you can, (in any order)
1) Move your mech it's Pace.
(We are rounding down to the nearest 5, since each "square" is 5...units of distance.)
2) Fire one weapon.
2a) For shooting anything OTHER than missiles: Determine how far it is to your target, calculate the range penalty (-2 for Medium, -4 for long), get their movement penalty (we haven't gotten to that yet, but suffice that the faster your target is, the harder it is to hit), factor in your Targetting system (which removes up to 2 of penalties) and then roll your Shooting ONCE and a d6 for your wild die ONCE. Take the best.
To save time, also roll damage.
2b) For firing missiles, you may ignore speed penalties (because missiles are fast) but still factor in range penalties. Roll your Knowledge (Electronic Warfare!) against the target's MDTN (which will always be '6' for this scenario).
You get to roll your K(EW) for AS MANY times as the # of missiles you are firing PLUS one roll of a d6 for your Wild Die (which you can use if it's higher than any ONE of your K(EW) rolls.
Does this help?
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All of this mechanical ambiguity is eh, not so enjoyable. I generally play for RP and story... this is a nightmarish amount of rules mumbo jumbo. I appreciate the condensed version you posted above, Maximillian, and would love it if Atlas could similarly summarize things once all of the back and forth is through.
Since this got 1 like (showing 2 people agree with it...in a group of 3 ^_^) I took a moment's pause and came up with a quick, good, scenario to put you people through, as soon as we've finished this little ditty to get all the rules down.
I like it, as it's something I would want to play through, and I think it very much represents my GM style.
If we can POWER our way through what we're doing right now, you may consider that the 'dessert' that lies at the end.
To begin the game...all of you are on a team. What is the name of that team?
(You have a while, so no rush, but I will need agreement.)
Does this help?
Yes! Thank you. I will refer to this post until I get comfortable enough with actions during combat.
Re: team name, um, I don't know. Something gritty? I'm not as familiar with the setting as the rest of you may be.
I would call a square a square, and have it equal 10 yards.
That is a GREAT idea! We will totally do that! =D
So, Atlas, will you now please re-post all our weapons' ranges in units of "squares"? Thanks!
Like, why does it matter if I string three aces together and end up with a 29 to-hit for a missile.There are these things called "Raises", which happen every 4 points above the TN (Target Number) you need to succeed. So at 8 points you get 1 Raise, at 12 points you get 2 Raises, etc. Raises often mean that things go much better than normal - for instance, a Raise on an attack means you get to add an extra d6 to the *damage* roll.
One of the most important things Raises affect is the result of your Damage roll. If the damage-Toughness (I'm ignoring Armor and Armor Piercing, which is a whole can-of-worms on it's own) is a simple Success (0-3), the target is Shaken (can't take actions like attacking). For each Raise you get, you inflict 1 Wound on the target. The target is "down" when it reaches more than 3 Wounds total.
Your Missile Defence Target Number (MDTN)? Anyway, ya, it'll be half your K(EW) die, +2. And then you can always add in any other defenses, like AMCM.
I *really* like this! We should include our MDTN in our "tag" lines (the line of info right below our PC's name) so you can tell at a glance what they are during combats.
Mine is 9. So an attacker basically needs to get two Raises just to make me Shaken. I'm happy with that.
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Your Missile Defence Target Number (MDTN)? Anyway, ya, it'll be half your K(EW) die, +2. And then you can always add in any other defenses, like AMCM.I *really* like this! We should include our MDTN in our "tag" lines (the line of info right below our PC's name) so you can tell at a glance what they are during combats.
Mine is 9. So an attacker basically needs to get two Raises just to make me Shaken. I'm happy with that.
Well thank you.
Mind you, it's not "just to make me Shaken" as a missile's damage is a different roll. The MDTN is like the Parry stat: It's what they need to -hit- you.
So a Pilot with a d8 in their K(EW) needs to Ace just to hit you. *grumble*
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Re: team name, um, I don't know. Something gritty? I'm not as familiar with the setting as the rest of you may be.
Heh. Ya gotta Beleive in yerself!!1!
You're guys piloting giant fighting robots of living death. You need more than that? =)
Srsly, even in-setting some of the best units have generic names.
One of the best merc units is just called the "Eredani Light Horse". And the most well-known and baddest merc units is called "Wolf's Dragoons."
And there's the Grey Death Legion.
See? Nothing overly creative there. Just toss something out and see. ^_^
(See, I'm the GM now, so I can use double-triangles whenever I want. That's really the only reason I'm doing this. =-p)
Trashy Metal Task Force
Mechanical Savages
Generic Strategic Support Squad #4126
Cowboys from Hell
Kings of Metal
Angels of Death
The Devil's Fist
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I'd like to speak on some small points:
1) Knowledge (Electronic Warfare) is used to all things missile related.
Knowledge (Battle!) is a different skill, and will be used to determine initiative and is heavily used in mass combat. You have a free d4 in K(B)
2) All new characters start with 12 skill points...unless if you have no Hindrances. If all you wanna do is toss up a char an' toss some dice, you can keep the 13th skill point. The instant you wanna be l33t, the we go back to the "rules". =p
3) One thing that I've seen alot in SW is that Hindrances aren't observed enough. They're just kinda there and not used in storytelling.
I'd like to try something new.
At the end of a post, I may say something like: Loyal; you feel compelled to help her, or Bloodthirsty; you can not stand to live ina world where your prisoner Dargor the Shadowlord is allowed to speak 20 more words or live 20 more minutes.
That just means that if you have that Hindrance, that is how you are affected.
And if you don't, then it doesn't affect you.
The Wasp DASHES forward 30' and looses a brace of short SRMs at Darwin in his Commando!
The f**+? Feet, seriously?
Mind you, it's not "just to make me Shaken" as a missile's damage is a different roll. The MDTN is like the Parry stat: It's what they need to -hit- you.
So a Pilot with a d8 in their K(EW) needs to Ace just to hit you. *grumble*.
Sorry, I mixed up the "to hit" and "to damage" concepts - brain fart.
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Also, why did the Wasp have to make a Piloting roll if all he did was move and fire?[/ooc]
This has proven to be a very difficult question. Like the Learnean Hydra, as I saought an answer for this, I only found new questions.
The basic answer is because the Wasp took a critical hit, which requires it to make a piloting roll every round.
I had been using the crit tables from SW RIFTS, because the vehicular tables are incompatible with mecha.
Hence, I was going over the NEW SW rules (the SWADE) to see how their tables figured, and I see they made a few changes to the rules.
WE ARE NOW USING THE NEW VEHICULAR RULES.
What does this mean? Little, but also much.
To begin, in the new rules, NOT every wound causes a crit. I am grateful for this. You must Raise on the damage roll to get a crit roll. This makes sense, as not every wound causes some kind of incapacitation.
So too, the new crit tables eliminate the Controls crit, and just give that space so that there are TWO spaces for a Locomotion hit.
They also got rid of the 12 = Wrecked result, which also makes sense. (I'm still contemplating swapping that with the Pilot result, but we'll see how many MechWarrior deaths we get first. =)
Tweaking stats based on the realization that missiles are the end all and be all and nothing else matters. What comes after d12?
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.
No, no, they're...not. They're just not.
SRMs and LRMs are the -only- two missile types that exist. (currently)
They're solid hitters at the light-mech levels, but the other weapons haven't been demonstrated much yet.
Darwin in his Panther hasn't even fired his Particle Acceleration Cannon yet.
Both your Valkyrie and Roger's Jenner have quad medium lazers that not only have VERY GOOD damage, but also get a bonus to hit.
So yeah, right now, missiles are okay, but I wouldn't sink your shooting to d6 because of it.
Hrmmmm, perhaps a demonstration of this battle stations full capabilities are in order....
Darwin in his Panther hasn't even fired his Particle Acceleration Cannon yet. Both your Valkyrie and Roger's Jenner have quad medium lazers that not only have VERY GOOD damage, but also get a bonus to hit.
Ok, so the missiles do an average of 22 damage per hit.
The medium laser does an average of 16 damage per hit, that's a *wound and a half* less than the missiles, and can only be fired half as often as the SRM's (without MAP's).The particle accelerator does an average of 20 damage per hit, but can only be fired half as often as the SRM's (without MAP's).
I know that doesn't account for the various AP's (altho the SRM's AP of 20 is double that of all the other weapons, making it even *more* effective), or the effective damage when Attack rolls and the TN to hit are included, I'm just sayin'.
So, just looking at the weapons themselves : the SRM's do more damage, more often per round, and with a bigger AP than the other (non-missile) weapons we've seen so far.
Making the lasers do 4d10 instead of 3d10 brings their average damage up to 20, but they still only fire half as fast as the SRM's, and their AP is half that of the SRM's.
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Alright, it looks lime my attempt to break Missiles down into one die roll has failed.
For the rest of the combat, let's try to *sigh* play by close to the rules.
From SWADE: Unless otherwise noted, missiles must “lock” onto their targets before they can be fired. This action is an opposed Electronics roll. Success gives the attacker a “short” lock and allows him to fire up to half the missiles his particular craft can fire at once. A raise is a more solid lock and allows him to fire all of them.
The enemy attempts to evade each missile separately by making a maneuvering roll at −4
Great Jabba the Hutt that's -3- rolls as written. Okay, we can't have that. Let's break it down into two steps:
1) Instead of an Opposed roll, it'll just be a normal to-hit, (with speed modifiers, range, size, etc) using the K(EW) skill to hit.
2) Then the target gets to do their evade (also with K(EW)) at the appropriate modifier. (which is -4, and this is where AMCM applies.)
ZenFox: I know it says that Piloting is supposed to come in to play here, but that missiles have proven so powerful only increases my estimation that a different, non-primary skill needs to be used here. Also, it makes more sense that one skill is used in this weapon set.
We haven't said anything about heat yet.
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Okay, different idea.
Instead of the above idea, we instead have the MDTN be half EW, rounded up. And that's it. Attack roll is only against that. Then the defender gets their EW roll, -4, with Amcm.
I read the rule wrong before, and I think this represents it accurately, but with one less roll.
What do y'all think?
So, no penalties for speed, range, or size? I am all for that. What the hell does a missile care about any of those things.
But what if I get a raise on a to-hit roll? Or a couple raises? Does the enemy still only need to roll a success at -4 +2 to evade? That seems wrong.
Are you waiting to spring Heat on us until the end or are you scrapping heat from the game? I would be cool not having to think about that.
Instead of the above idea, we instead have the MDTN be half EW, rounded up. And that's it. Attack roll is only against that. Then the defender gets their EW roll, -4, with Amcm.
I like it! Hmmm...wait a minute - with a MDTN of 6, an attacker with K(EW) of d8 or d10 hits about 50-60% of the time. And with a -2, the defender *fails* about 40-50% of the time. That brings the chances of a successful missile hit down to 20-30%, same as for the opposed rolls. That makes missiles *much* less favorable, which is what you wanted. Good job!
...did you intentionally remove the +2 to the MDTN calculation? That would make it *easier* for missiles to hit...
To speed up gameplay, I strongly suggest that each character (and the GM) rolls damage when their attack K(EW) scores a hit (Atlas, I know you've been saying to do that, but now it becomes *important*). Then the defender makes a post with their K(EW) rolls, and applies the pre-rolled damage if applicable. Unfortunately, that puts having to handle armor, AP, and calculating Wounds into the hands of the players, which may be overwhelming at first.
To address Max's issue, how about : for one or more Raises on the Attacker's K(EW) roll, the defender has an extra -2 penalty added to his roll?
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So, no penalties for speed, range, or size? I am all for that. What the hell does a missile care about any of those things.
But what if I get a raise on a to-hit roll? Or a couple raises? Does the enemy still only need to roll a success at -4 +2 to evade? That seems wrong.
Are you waiting to spring Heat on us until the end or are you scrapping heat from the game? I would be cool not having to think about that.
1) I am of the same thoughts--except for range. Now that I think on it, it seems fair that range penatyies would apply. I say that so that there is always some advantage to getting closer. To have missiles always ignore range, is to give SRM as de facto range of 400, which is just wrong. But not speed and ESPECIALLY not size. That's so dumb that the missiles fired from a Valkyrie would somehow be more accurate than those fired from an Archer. sheesh!
2) wait one. Apparently I'm going with keeping the bonus damage. That makes sense--that if you aim more betterer you can hit something a bit more vital than usual.
3) You said you read the Walker rules from SW SCifi, which is what we're playing now, and they don't have heat. So, yeah, none of that.
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...did you intentionally remove the +2 to the MDTN calculation? That would make it *easier* for missiles to hit...
Unfortunately, that puts having to handle armor, AP, and calculating Wounds into the hands of the players, which may be overwhelming at first.
To address Max's issue, how about : for one or more Raises on the Attacker's K(EW) roll, the defender has an extra -2 penalty added to his roll?
1) Yes. Giving the defender a 'saving throw' is a huge benefit, so we don't need such a high threshold to make.
ALSO! (And this is the main reason.) When you look at an opposed roll, you'll be rolling against, on average, their average. (i.e. if you're rolling off against a d8, you'll be rolling against a 4.5.) By rounding that to a 5, that fairly re-creates the experience, but gets rid of a die roll.2) Correct. However much of this has been hard at first, but I feel I have men of such stronger stuff here that we can adapt to it. I imagine that I'll be helping such rolls along for some time, and then it'll be second nature.
3) No, I don't like that. A bonus to hit, in SW, is MUCH more favorable than a bonus to damage. I propose that we keep the rule that we know: A raise grants +1d6 damage.
(I may eat those words. We might just go with the -other- rule on missile fire that I've actually been dreading, because it's so counter to the setting, but we may have no choice. And that is that on a success you only get to fire -half- of the missiles that you can. You need a raise for a full blast. )
So now, with a MDTN of 4, an attacker with K(EW) of d8 or d10 hits about 80-85% of the time. And with a -2, the defender *fails* about 40-50% of the time. That brings the chances of a successful missile hit down to 30-40%, slightly better than for the opposed rolls. Whereas a quad laser with a Shooting of d8+2 or d10+2 hits 98% of the time. That still makes missiles *much* less favorable than "regular" weapons.
A raise grants +1d6 damage.
D'oh! Don't know why I didn't think of that.
...on a success you only get to fire -half- of the missiles that you can. You need a raise for a full blast.
Yeah, I don't like that either. That would make missiles WAY too weak at this point.
3) No, I don't like that. A bonus to hit, in SW, is MUCH more favorable than a bonus to damage. I propose that we keep the rule that we know: A raise grants +1d6 damage.
The reason this is so is because generally, in other applications of SW, you don't have hit locations or systems which are more critical than others to be hit. When my dude with a sword attacks a big monster, SW doesn't care where I hit the monster, and the extra D6 damage implies that I hit it somewhere vital.
In Battletech, because you are also factoring in critical systems and hit locations, then because I was more accurate, the damage goes against a more important system. If I shoot you in the arm vs the head that's where the difference is.
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Blargh. Things were easier when I only worked 8 hours and was bored. Now that I work 13 on the regular it's harder.
Balls, I'd update now but I gotta go to work.
No no no, I'm not dropping this idea, I've got too much to do, and we've done some good work here.
I'm just saying that if I don't do an update its because I had a loooong shift and do not have the minutes to type the keyboard, and I feel more badder about than anyone. =/
As someone who also gets bogged down with work and isn't able to post - sometimes for days - I get it. Take all the time you need.
13 hours per day *all the time*??? I hope you're getting overtime!!! :)
Take your time, I'm liking this game too much to quit just because you can't post every day.
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Thanks guys. =)
See, like last night. Last night I did not work twelve hours!
...
I did however work 14 hours, just got up and now have to go back to work. =p
(Fortunately it's the perfect storm, in that I both like what I do, and we reallllllly need the money. That's what they call a win-win, right?)
Atlas - you might find SWADE's expanded use of Bennies of interest. In addition to the "usual" things (reroll a Trait roll, recover from Shaken, Soak), you can now spend a Benny to :
DRAW A NEW ACTION CARD: When the game is in rounds, a character can spend a Benny to get a new Action Card.
REROLL DAMAGE: You may spend a Benny to reroll damage. Include any additional dice you may have gained for a raise on the attack roll.
REGAIN POWER POINTS: A character with an Arcane Background can spend a Benny to regain 5 Power Points.
INFLUENCE THE STORY: This one is entirely up to the Game Master, who may allow your character to spend a Benny to find an additional clue if you’re stuck, come up with some mundane but needed item, or push a nonplayer character into being a bit more agreeable.