Does Araga's tremorsense "hear" the oil moving (in pipes or not)?
If so... what are the chances of her burrowing up to the buried piping and squeezing it shut? Or blocking/collapsing the ducts, or whatever? Without landing herself in the frying pan, naturally.
Please put questions like this in the gameplay thread (with ooc tags so the font is different from the rest). It's so much easier for me to keep the action going if I'm just looking in one place instead of jumping back and forth between two different threads. Discussion should be used for broad out of character discussions such as arguments about a rules point, explanations of how a character ability works, or strategy discussions between the party members. Thanks!
To answer your question, Araga does sense motion under the floor of the room. Whether that is oil flowing, another Bebilith lying in wait, or something else entirely, is beyond her capacity to know.
She can certainly burrow under the floor to see what she finds. I can't tell you what the chances are of her being able to squeeze it shut, block/collapse the pipes, or whether she will land herself in the frying pan, etc. until she actually tries it.
In general, unless you use a spell like augury or similar, I'm not going to tell you in advance whether a particular course of action will lead to the result you wish. If you attempt something that would obviously be impossible I will tell you that and allow you to retcon. But otherwise ordinarily you find out whether something will have the desired result by trying it (along with, sometimes, throwing dice). Or at least that's how I generally run my tables. Hope that works for you.
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Please put questions like this in the gameplay thread (with ooc tags so the font is different from the rest). It's so much easier for me to keep the action going if I'm just looking in one place instead of jumping back and forth between two different threads. Discussion should be used for broad out of character discussions such as arguments about a rules point, explanations of how a character ability works, or strategy discussions between the party members. Thanks!
Sorry. I'll try to keep that in mind.
To answer your question, Araga does sense motion under the floor of the room. Whether that is oil flowing, another Bebilith lying in wait, or something else entirely, is beyond her capacity to know.She can certainly burrow under the floor to see what she finds. I can't tell you what the chances are of her being able to squeeze it shut, block/collapse the pipes, or whether she will land herself in the frying pan, etc. until she actually tries it.
In general, unless you use a spell like augury or similar, I'm not going to tell you in advance whether a particular course of action will lead to the result you wish. If you attempt something that would obviously be impossible I will tell you that and allow you to retcon. But otherwise ordinarily you find out whether something will have the desired result by trying it (along with, sometimes, throwing dice). Or at least that's how I generally run my tables. Hope that works for you.
Looking at my previous post, my language was imprecise. I wasn't asking for a DC, just "is this a thing that she thinks she could try". And the answer there seems to be "yes".
Yep!
Clarifications needed.
The door we came through slammed shut. Did the oil that is filling the room break through that door and make its way into the pit, or should we retcon that bit? How thick is the door and how hard would it be to break through it, assuming it is still a barrier.
The oil is flowing towards the door that you came through and has just now (in round 3) started flowing under the door towards the pit so if you are worrying about the eels, they weren't taking dmg before (rounds 1 and 2) but presumably they are now.
The module doesn't give me stats for the door so I'll just have to wing that if you go that route. You could a) try to open it; b) try to pick the lock (if it's locked) (it is); c) try to break it down (Str check); d) try to Sunder it (probably need an adamantine pick or something similar); e) use other magical/supernatural/extraordinary pathfinder shenanigans.
Sorry for the delay everyone. I've got to get my taxes out the door. Will post an update soon.
No kidding. Hope your luck changes soon!
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The sturdy pathfinders are undisturbed by the hellish vision of the room except for Onjatan, who has been having a string of unfortunate luck! Onjatan, I would ask you if you want to reroll but I see you've already used your reroll. You are shaken, with an additional -2 penalty on fear effects.
Random Will save upon entering a creepy room behind a bunch of seals? Especially since a dangerous thing happened when we walked through the last door?
Yeah, that seems like it could be bad. Use Resolve on that one to roll twice. Or, if you don't like that, I've got a boon-based reroll that needs to happen "before the results are known." On seeing the natural 1 on a suspicous Will save, I'd use that.
Please let me know which option you pick.
As this new encounter begins, Araga is still underground, no one is debilitated by the smoke (at least for the current round), and both Onjatan and Shiva are on fire (though Shiva has little risk due to Resist Fire 5).
Still haven't said what kind of action it is to put the fire out.
The sturdy pathfinders are undisturbed by the hellish vision of the room except for Onjatan, who has been having a string of unfortunate luck! Onjatan, I would ask you if you want to reroll but I see you've already used your reroll. You are shaken, with an additional -2 penalty on fear effects.Random Will save upon entering a creepy room behind a bunch of seals? Especially since a dangerous thing happened when we walked through the last door?
Yeah, that seems like it could be bad. Use Resolve on that one to roll twice. Or, if you don't like that, I've got a boon-based reroll that needs to happen "before the results are known." On seeing the natural 1 on a suspicous Will save, I'd use that.
Please let me know which option you pick.
As this new encounter begins, Araga is still underground, no one is debilitated by the smoke (at least for the current round), and both Onjatan and Shiva are on fire (though Shiva has little risk due to Resist Fire 5).Still haven't said what kind of action it is to put the fire out.
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Weapon Song gives each ally the rage powers so they attack on your turn, but the ability just says on your turn with no timing specificity.@Shiva:
Do the spirit attacks happen at on Shiva's turn, at the beginning of each PC's turn, or at some arbitrary point during each PC's turn?
Okay. Didn't know if there'd been any specific rulings on that in this group.
Might end up slapping Yellow on approach, then.
My kid starts her week-long spring break today and we are going to visit Grandma. I'll still be able to post but likely with reduced frequency until after April 13. I appreciate your understanding.
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Correct, the flaming and frost won't take effect. I would have to start a new song to do +1 and something else.
Since I'm not trying to get above +2, all of everyone's weapons are effected.
Okay. So all my weapons are equally unaffected.
Might be a good thing that I didn't check the archetype until now? I think that would have actually changed the bebilith fight; Onjatan apparently just barely did enough damage to the webbing to get free, and that was with the elemental damage.
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Moving to discussion...
I'm trying to parse the ability as shown below. Nowhere does it say that you expend two spells of one level less if you do not have a spell of the level being dispelled, only that it may take more than one spell slot. Frankly, I just assumed the sum of the lost spell levels had to match the dispelled spell level. In these cases I am usually missing something. Why do you think it takes 2 3rd level spells to dispel the 4th level spell? Is it somewhere I am not reading? Did you find an explanation elsewhere on line? Am I just missing something in that paragraph?
Song of Arcane Manipulation (Su): At 10th level, a spell warrior can sacrifice his own rage magic to counter an opponent’s spell. When using raging song, he can counterspell as an immediate action without interrupting his raging song. However, in addition to expending a spell slot (or spell slots) to attempt to counter the opponent’s spell, the skald must expend 1 round of raging song per spell level of the opponent’s spell (for example, if attempting to counterspell a 3rd-level spell, the skald must expend one of his own 3rd-level spell slots and 3 rounds of raging song). This ability replaces the dirge of doom raging song.
Hey everyone, sorry for the delay. Family trip has been pretty attention consuming, all in good ways. If I'm not able to resume the action tomorrow I should be able to by Monday.
Yeesh, sorry everyone. Finally having a moment to catch my breath and working on an update now. Should be back to normal posting schedule now.
Correct, the flaming and frost won't take effect. I would have to start a new song to do +1 and something else.
Since I'm not trying to get above +2, all of everyone's weapons are effected.
Okay. So all my weapons are equally unaffected.
Might be a good thing that I didn't check the archetype until now? I think that would have actually changed the bebilith fight; Onjatan apparently just barely did enough damage to the webbing to get free, and that was with the elemental damage.
Yes, that's right. The web had DR (!) so it was the elemental dmg that (barely) got you free.
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Taking this to discussion, because it's a longer post.
So... shaken. Per Onjatan's archetype, it definitely prevents him from using his kinetic blasts. The wording is a bit unclear about his DR, though. Relevant text quoted and edited for clarity below.
He can’t use any of his wild talents whenever he , and if he ever gains immunity to charm, compulsion, emotion effects (even if such immunity extends only to a subcategory of these effects like fear effects or compulsion effects from creatures of certain alignments), he loses all his kineticist abilities. This includes effects that he previously activated that normally last until the next time his burn is removed, like , though he still keeps all his penalties from burn.
I can't tell whether the "loses elemental defenses" bit is associated with "gains immunity to an effect", or if it's associated with "whenever he is shaken".
And while I have the text quoted, I have another interaction question. It's got enough probable table variance that I didn't want to bother before, but if this is going to be a single-GM delve to retirement...
Immunity to fear would turn off class features. But what about the spell Remove Fear? It "suppresses" fear effects, so does that count as immunity?
Hmm, interesting questions, and ones that underline the degree to which I've always found the kineticist a baffling class to wrap my head around.
On the first point, it seems pretty plain, as you say, that when he's shaken he can't use any wild talents (sidenote: are all of your kineticist combat abilities classified as wild talents? If not, those should remain usable).
He can’t use any of his wild talents whenever he would be unable to use a spell with an emotion component (see page 144 of Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures)...
It is impossible to cast a spell with an emotion component while the spellcaster is under the influence of a non-harmless effect with the emotion or fear descriptors.
Q: Does the shaken condition from effects like Intimidate count as "an effect with the fear descriptor" for the purpose of blocking spells with emotion components?
A: Yes, they do. It should say "fear effect," and for most descriptors, these wordings are sometimes used interchangeably. For instance, an ability that protects you from effects with the charm descriptor would generally protect you from a harpy's song (which is a charm effect).
So, in short, seems like a good idea for Psychokineticists to carry around some sort of answer to Shaken and other emotion effects.
I can't tell whether the "loses elemental defenses" bit is associated with "gains immunity to an effect", or if it's associated with "whenever he is shaken".
On this second question, I'm afraid you'll have to unpack this for me a bit more because I'm not seeing the language you quoted "loses elemental defenses" - where is that?
And are you asking:
A) If the kineticist gains immunity they lose X?
B) If the kineticist becomes shaken they lose X?
C) something else?
Basically, just gotta explain this part of the question to me like I'm a little simple minded :-)
And while I have the text quoted, I have another interaction question. It's got enough probable table variance that I didn't want to bother before, but if this is going to be a single-GM delve to retirement...
Immunity to fear would turn off class features. But what about the spell Remove Fear? It "suppresses" fear effects, so does that count as immunity?
Another interesting question and one that I hesitate to rule on immediately since I can see that it could have potentially far-reaching effects one way or another. Would you mind posting about it in the Rules forum and see what you come up with? (I haven't posted there in quite a while so I hope it's still as active and helpful as it once once).
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I can't tell whether the "loses elemental defenses" bit is associated with "gains immunity to an effect", or if it's associated with "whenever he is shaken".On this second question, I'm afraid you'll have to unpack this for me a bit more because I'm not seeing the language you quoted "loses elemental defenses" - where is that?
And are you asking:
A) If the kineticist gains immunity they lose X?
B) If the kineticist becomes shaken they lose X?
C) something else?
Basically, just gotta explain this part of the question to me like I'm a little simple minded :-)
Sorry. I edited over the actual text in the quote, but not in my commentary.
Onjatan's DR comes from his Elemental Defense wild talent. It's not exactly something he generally "uses", though, and feels more like a passive. That being said, it does say he can dismiss/restore as an immediate action, so it's not necessarily purely passive. And in its base form, it doesn't use the "until burn is next recovered" text mentioned in the archetype... but it's not fundamentally different from the form that does use that text.
For the DR, my question is "if Onjatan is shaken, does he lose his DR?"
That seems pretty straightforward to me. "If Onjatan is shaken, does he lose his DR?" - I'd say, yes. The DR comes from one of his wild talents. When he's shaken he loses his wild talents. I can't really even see a counter-argument.
I'll note that this does make Shaken - normally a minor annoyance for most characters - a major impediment for a psychokineticist, but as far as I can tell that's by design and perhaps to offset whatever advantages the archetype gives. It reminds me of the way that emotion conditions like Shaken can be super debilitating to Psychics. My psychic had to burn a whole feat (Logical Spell) just to have a way to still operate in those circumstances. I don't know if there's a comparable remedy for kineticists, if not a feat perhaps an item of some kind?.
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That seems pretty straightforward to me. "If Onjatan is shaken, does he lose his DR?" - I'd say, yes. The DR comes from one of his wild talents. When he's shaken he loses his wild talents. I can't really even see a counter-argument.
I'll note that this does make Shaken - normally a minor annoyance for most characters - a major impediment for a psychokineticist, but as far as I can tell that's by design and perhaps to offset whatever advantages the archetype gives. It reminds me of the way that emotion conditions like Shaken can be super debilitating to Psychics. My psychic had to burn a whole feat (Logical Spell) just to have a way to still operate in those circumstances. I don't know if there's a comparable remedy for kineticists, if not a feat perhaps an item of some kind?.
Okay.
Most items provide a bonus vs fear, with some giving immunity (which is bad). About the only one that actually removes shaken is the Headband of Unshakable Resolve... which takes the headband slot. The slot which Onjatan is intending for a stronger Wis-boosting headband, since Psychokineticst is technically a Wis-based class. Might still swap to that, since the stat isn't actually giving the kinds of buffs you'd normally expect.
As for Remove Fear, my rules forum thread has gotten two responses. They disagree with each other.
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How about the spell Surmount Affliction or Placebo Effect or Recentering Drone. Seems tailor made for this kind of thing. keep a few around in scroll or potion form. These just remove or suppress the condition, unlike remove fear which will also 'instill courage in the subject'. I suspect that clause is the issue with the spell as it modifies your emotions.
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How about the spell Surmount Affliction or Placebo Effect or Recentering Drone. Seems tailor made for this kind of thing. keep a few around in scroll or potion form. These just remove or suppress the condition, unlike remove fear which will also 'instill courage in the subject'. I suspect that clause is the issue with the spell as it modifies your emotions.
Remove Fear is a harmless spell, and Emotion spells that are also harmless don't trigger the "can't cast spells" clause. So even if it had the Emotion descriptor (which it doesn't), it would be fine. It's the Psychokineticist-specific "immunity to fear" clause that's the problem there.
Recentering Drone has duration of "concentration", so someone would still be losing their turns.
Surmount Affliction is a Personal spell, so ineligiable for a potion.
Placebo Effect is... interesting. Is "can't control your own emotions" an ill effect, or just the -2 to everything?
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Ring of Protection +2, slight upgrade for me if no one else needs it... and a Staff of Fire. I don't think any of us can make much use of the staff.
As a point of interest, anyone can use a staff, I think, using the spell trigger method. So if you cannot cast the spell yourself, you would need to use UMD and roll a 20 (I'm pretty sure it works the same as a wand). You would use the better of your Int/Cha and the CL listed for creating the staff (in this case CL 8). So Yanda, were she to roll that 20, could cast the fireball at level 8 since it is not something she could cast, but with a +6 to DC because of her int. So, yea, useful but risky because you will need to make a decent UMD roll and all the spells in that staff are combat spells. So, to summarize, Yanda could cast a 8d6, DC 19 fireball as a standard action but with a 30% chance of failure (assuming heroism is active). Not sure if that is worth the use of a standard action. Or an 8 round wall of fire that is 20' long. That might actually be worth it, and the int/cha does not really come into play so anyone with the UMD would benefit. Recharging it is another matter.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I just researched this to make sure I was accurate, but I may have messed up on some point or another.
Sorry everyone - busy few days - will post when I get a change. Thx for understanding.
Sorry everyone. Digging myself out of too many different things and then have been laid up with nasty food poisoning for a few days. Will get us going again.