Welcome dungeoneers. Please dot into discussion.
dot
Edit: I'm going to run with the son of Atrau...having the Tribe that he's from...the males must earn thier name from the hunt, when they come of age.
Excitedly dots
Thanks for selecting me. Hopefully I can live up to your expectations.
Oh and I'm so dotting!
Thanks for selecting my character! As I posted before, If you'd like to trade having an NPC for a mule/donkey, I am agreeable to that.
Dotting in, thanks Nairb. Looking forward to delving with you all.
Alright. I am setting up the dungeon map right now. Sheth, if you could please go in and take a look at the icon tiles I have selected for your eidolons. I tried to find options that matched your descriptions. Fire horse and rock snake I just blatantly stole from pokemon. :)
If you are dissatisfied with any of those please locate an image that you would prefer to use and provide me a link and I will swap it out.
The canvas is pretty large...it is afterall the world's largest dungeon, so when you first get in if it does not default to where I left the view scroll down to the lower left hand corner. That is where we will be starting.
Apologies for the graininess of the map. The scans of the WLD maps I have access to are pretty low res/low quality.
I have set up this map as editable to anyone that has the link. Because of that I am going to PM you the link rather than posting it. If you lose it I will happily PM again. If something goes awry I am planning on having a backup copy of the map saved as well, so if someone does go in and make tons of changes we should be able to recover fairly easily.
Oh and I'm so dotting!
Thanks for selecting my character! As I posted before, If you'd like to trade having an NPC for a mule/donkey, I am agreeable to that.
I am fine with a hireling or an animal, whichever you prefer.
If you do want a hireling I built one using Dinglegames's NPC Generator.
Dornhold Merriweather
Human CR 0.3
XP 120
Any Medium Humanoid
Warrior level 1 (skill points 4) Light Foot
Init +1; Senses ; Perception +0
DEFENSE
AC 15, Touch 11, flat footed 14 ( Leather, Shield, none)
(+1 Dex, +2 armour, +2 shield)
hp 7 (1d10+1);
Leather Armor
Light Wooden Shield
Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -1
OFFENSE
Speed 30
Melee
Single Attack Mace,Heavy +3 (1d8+1) x2
Full Attack
Mace,Heavy +3 (1d8+1) x2
Space 5ft.; Reach 5
Ranged
Crossbow, Light +3* (1d8) 19-20 x2
*-4 firing into melee
Special Attacks
STATISTICS
Str 12, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 9
Base Attack 1 CMB 2 ; CMD 13
Feats
Armour Prof Heavy,
Armour Prof Light,
Armour Prof Medium,
Martial Weap Prof,
Weapon Focus: Mace
Shield Proficiency: Can use shields,
Simple Weapon Proficiency,
Tower Shield Proficiency: Can use the tower shield and suffer only normal shield skill penalties,
Point Blank Shot: +1 range attack rolls w/i 30'
Skills Climb 5, Craft 1, Handle Animal -1, Intimidate 3, Perception 0, Profession -1, Ride 1, Swim 5
Languages Common
Description: 20 years old male human warrior. He has extremely long, wavy, gray hair and green eyes. He has soft, pockmarked, pink skin. He stands 162cm (5'3") tall and has a skinny build. He has a triangular, attractive face. He is easily out of breath.
Personality: He is very optimistic. He judges people on their fighting skills. He frequently laughs at inappropriate times. He is a local sport champion.
Mule will mean more carry, Dornhold will mean more smashey (maybe, he is not elite by anymeans). Both would be fairly squishy and might die before too long in the dungeon. The choice is yours.
Dotting in, hello and welcome to all of you!
If anyone has some extra carrying capacity (or a mule) I have about 40 lbs of gear that I'm currently leaving on the inn floor on our way out. Some of it might be useful, and if you want it, it can be yours!
Grappling hook x2
Backpack
Caltrops
Iron Pot
50 ft rope
Soap (1/2 lb)
Torches x10
Waterskin
Trail Rations x2
Soap? What sort of demon spawn invention is this?
That is because I made the canvas so large. Right now it is showing on the zoom setting 'fit'. Change it to 100% and you should get a resolved image.
That is because I made the canvas so large. Right now it is showing on the zoom setting 'fit'. Change it to 100% and you should get a resolved image.
Ah, so it is. Working fine now. The Eidolicons look good enough, though given that it's medium, I picture the fire elemental as more ponyta sized than rapidash sized.
Hello all! I am utterly thrilled to enter this huge dungeon with all of you!
Oh, I thought I had grabbed ponyta...that's the one I had searched for. Oh well, updated to ponyta now.
All checked in...awesome!
Let's talk about ABP and if we like that over normal wealth progression with me picking out magic items for you guys. I am fine either way. ABP means better magic generally, although Sheth you will need to distribute your bonuses between yourself and your pet(s) as you see fit. Normal Wealth means more freedom for me (and more work, but I am okay with that) to give you interesting magic items, but I will say in the dungeon you will not have many opportunities to be at a shop and directly buy something you want. Almost all of the magic items will be what you find in the dungeon, most often in the hands of something that is trying to kill you. Either way stopping things efficiently to prevent them from 'drinking your loot' will be important.
Either way I will be open to wishlist items, if there is something that your build needs magic item wise let me know and maybe you will come across it in the dungeon. The adventure gives me a lot of leeway to give you the treasure as I see fit. If you run the dungeon as written without any additional loot I think you only come across one +1 weapon through the entire thing...so obviously intended for the GM to add stuff in on their own.
I am open to your thoughts, comments and testimonials about ABP vs Normal Wealth. I will make a final decision on Wednesday and allow a few final adjustments to characters in response before we get started for realsies.
The floor is yours to conversate.
From a Player perspective:
I enjoy the loot aspect. The more unique, the more interesting, the more fun. That said, would we be able to "salvage/recycle" existing loot for crafting...magical or otherwise. Say someone gets Craft Wondrous feat, would they be able to salvage the half price of existing magic items for creating a new one?
The feat tax would be problem for most, I'm guessing, me included.
I wouldn't mind a mix between ABP and loot either. A strict ABP might be too boring IMHO.
From a PC perspective:
My character would have no real understanding of commerce or the value of gold, etc. If he can't eat it or use it, It really has no value to him.
Well I think that a mix would be rather nice.
I mean on the one side oh we found another longsword +1, well add it on the cart is boring.
On the other side, WOW a +2 keen fauchard, made of adamantium. Awesome. Who can use it? No one? OUCH is even harsher.
I have found out my favorite option was to close my eyes and slowly fall backwards in the GM´s arms. Faith manages.
About the craft wonderous feats, well even I can try to squeeze in something.
On a related note, what is your opinion on combat stamina?
Soap? What sort of demon spawn invention is this?
"As far as Sheth can tell, 'soap' is scent mask, used when 'bathing'. It smells unnatural, scares off prey animals, and may attract curious predators."
As for my thoughts on ABP vs 'natural' accumulation of magic items, I'm largely indifferent. I'd have to share magic item slots with my Eidolons anyway, and since this build doesn't really need any magic items, the wishlist would be pretty generic - with a couple wildcards thrown in, just because I like toying with weird ideas. Like this build. So I'm willing to go with whatever Nairb would prefer to do.
My preference would be regular as written. As a Dex based character, I really would prefer not to have to wait till level 8 to get a +2 dex, same for no magic weapons will level 4. As "Boring" as people say the big 6 are, I've always found them to be the best items you could invest into.
Soap? What sort of demon spawn invention is this?"As far as Sheth can tell, 'soap' is scent mask, used when 'bathing'. It smells unnatural, scares off prey animals, and may attract curious predators."
Madness! I tell you...Madness!
Sounds like most are more interested in standard wealth/loot progression than ABP. I will leave it one more day for the others to weigh in.
On a related note, what is your opinion on combat stamina?
I have not played with the rules before. Looking over it it seems pretty straight forward. General gist is get a pool of points that when used make it more certain that you will hit or get a little extra mileage out of select feats.
What are the pros and cons of the system? In your guys' experience does it introduce any concerning game balance issues to be aware of? Since I have not played it before I need more info before I make a decision one way or the other.
I'm not a huge fan of ABP, mostly because I'm
A): fairly unfamiliar with it,
B): a grognard who will treasure that +2 keen fauchard even though
C): I'm playing a monk who doesn't rely on items so much but is probably
D): naive about the necessity of magic items in Pathfinder compared to ADnD.
But I'm happy to do a mix if that is possible.
I allow it in all my home games, but with the Feat Access regular version.
Feats to watch out for, (Or the ones people want to get)
Dazzling Display line: Super strong, removes timing restrictions, Deadly Stroke turns into murder anyone you are flanking 1/fight
Improved Critical effectively turns a 15-20 weapon into a 12-20 weapon
Strangler makes sneak attack grapple even more crazy then it was
All the other bonuses are pretty straight forward. I did soft ban the DDisplay line. (Soft bans in my home games are: You can use it if you want, but until you do, you never have to fight someone built that way)
What weapon is a 15-20 Threat weapon.
Never played with combat stamina so I have no advice to give.
Whether it's included or not, I probably won't be touching combat stamina, so my opinion is pretty irrelevant.
What are the pros and cons of the system? In your guys' experience does it introduce any concerning game balance issues to be aware of? Since I have not played it before I need more info before I make a decision one way or the other.
I've never used it, but it looks like a decent boost for melee characters. They do tend to lag behind at higher levels.
What weapon is a 15-20 Threat weapon.
Anything with a 18-20 before Improved Crit. So Scimitar, Nodatchi, Falchion
What weapon is a 15-20 Threat weapon.Anything with a 18-20 before Improved Crit. So Scimitar, Nodatchi, Falchion
Kukri for the TWF fans. Double the number of attacks on weapons with a high threat range. It is another good Warpriest cheese.
I allow it in all my home games, but with the Feat Access regular version.
Feats to watch out for, (Or the ones people want to get)
Dazzling Display line: Super strong, removes timing restrictions, Deadly Stroke turns into murder anyone you are flanking 1/fight
Improved Critical effectively turns a 15-20 weapon into a 12-20 weapon
Strangler makes sneak attack grapple even more crazy then it was
All the other bonuses are pretty straight forward. I did soft ban the DDisplay line. (Soft bans in my home games are: You can use it if you want, but until you do, you never have to fight someone built that way)
I am inclined to allow both of the concerning pieces mentioned above. Deadly Stroke doesn't turn on until level 11 at which point casters have save or die spells regularly. Hold monster, Symbol of Sleep, Touch of Slumber, Magic Jar, Suffocation, etc. Since the improved critical trick specifically says the attack is not a critical in the expanded 3 point range, it just does double damage. This prevents a further expansion of what the critical feats can do.
Honestly the tricks themselves are less concerning to me than the speed at which the pool regenerates. I am almost inclined to allow the rules but change the stamina pool rules to work like the Burn Rules for the Occult Kineticist.
By using stamina points you would suffer nonlethal damage that cannot be removed until a full rest. It effectively simulates the strain those pushes on the limits of endurance put on your body without putting you into a death spiral. It is also a hard limit on how many of those amazing feats you can do per day where as right now it is unlimited if you take enough short 5 - 10 minute rests.
Let you guys chew on that thought...Does it make the rules completely pointless, or is it a fair balance on limiting the resource?
A couple final house keeping things, and then tomorrow or tonight I will be making GM rulings on whether or not we will be using ABP and Stamina rules.
One of the things I love about DnD and similar RPGs is the tactical movement and RTS elements. Sadly this does not translate well into PBP. If you enforce strict initiative order things get bogged down because you are waiting for 1 particular person to post.
So when I run PbP and initiative comes up I do block rolling initiatives (players v monsters) like many GMs do. However, within that initiative order I will preserve individual initiative scores and use that to adjudicate the order of action.
For example: Dave (+2 initiative), Susan (+4 Initiative), and Bob (-1 initiative) are playing and just encountered a group of 4 standard goblins (+6 initiative each) that are charging for the attack. here is how I would roll the initiative.
/ 3 ~ 15.333
/ 4 ~ 15.25
The players barely beat out the monsters, so they will act first. Players can post in whatever order they want, but when I resolve the actions in those posts I will resolve Susan's first (rolled a 24 initiative), then Dave's (rolled a 15), then Bob's (rolled a 7). Then the goblins will go.
This does mean action economy wise the goblins could be decimated before any get to act. And if the goblins go before the players and roll well they could be on their way to a TPK before the players get to move. As such I will be beefing up defenses and watering down offenses of monsters as part of the updating to Pathfinder to make it work better with the realities of PbP.
If your post is made partially or wholey invalid by what another player higher in initiative order does, (Bob targeted Goblin 3, but Susan actually killed that goblin on her action) I will give you a chance to write an alternative in OOC. If you don't give that alternative within 24 hours (M-F) then I will bot you into an alternative that I feel makes sense for your character and your motivation at that point. (In this example that likely means that I will bot Bob into attacking goblin 4 instead).
Many on these boards handle secret skill checks by hiding them behind a spoiler with a DC labeled on it. I am not the biggest fan, because then even if no one passes the skill check the players still know the info and the temptation to meta game (at least for me) is strong.
So instead if there is an opportunity for your character to notice something that you as a player are not aware of (Perception Checks, Survival Checks, etc.) I will roll for you. If it is successful I will include the information you learned in the post. If the roll is not successful I will continue with the story line, skipping over the piece you didn't notice.
To keep the skill checks random on my side of the screen I will be using rolz.org for these secret skill checks. This allows me to roll a die and then discard it. Here on the boards if I try to do that then the next time I roll a die I will get the same result as before. A good anti cheating mechanic, but can be frustrating for GMs.
You are of course allowed to OOC me at any point asking for a skill roll if you want to keep an eye out or check a door for traps or whatever. This is just the rules for rolls you are allowed automatically.
On Stamina: Since I will not be using it, I'll let those who are, judge whether it's fair to limit it.
On Init: My Character build is built with going first in mind. So I can access the Flat-feet of monsters and the precision damage that will come with it. So I'm against the averaging.
On Skill: I'm ok with secret rolls, but does that mean all rolls...for instance, I would use my Survival skill to forage food, a DC:12...normally I'd just roll, and then in Character discuss how the others saw me picking up spiders, beetles and roaches, and popping them into my mouth like I was at a buffet.
So in this version I would ask you to roll and you would let me know if I foraged something and what it is/was?
No...if you are making a conscious effort to use your skills (such as foraging) you would just roll.
The skill checks I am talking about is if you might notice something or might not. Essentially when the GM calls for a perception check to see if you notice the hidden assassin.
I generally handle those behind the screen in IRL games as well because my newer players have trouble not meta-gaming. "I just failed a perception check."
I really do hope for secret rolls. It keeps the game interesting!
As for combat stamina, I just hope we try it. I heard it gives fighter some much needed edge.
I'm not a huge fan of that style of block initiative, just because of how it brutally chunks up action economy. One style I've seen that (in my opinion) may work a bit better is as such:
Initiative ordering works normally, so Goblin 3 would go first, but then Susan and Dave could take their turns in any order (functioning similar to how your system had it, with invalidated actions being substituted), then the other three goblins, and finally Bob goes.
This system allows a bit less freedom in post order than the bulk averaging you described, but has more respect for individual initiative, and doesn't break the action economy quite as much.
However, this is just a suggestion. You are the one running this game for us, so if you would prefer to run it with your system, I will respect that.
Yeah, I prefer the version Sheth put forward. I am most useful if I go before the monsters as well.
What is our average bonus? 2, 2, 5, 5, 4? 3.6.
Fine with secret skill rolls.
I'll defer to the DM's decision re initiative. All the proposed systems appear to be fairly convoluted, DM's included! :)
Same with combat stamina. I'm more concerned I'm missing out with poor feat selection. ;)
I'm not a huge fan of that style of block initiative, just because of how it brutally chunks up action economy. One style I've seen that (in my opinion) may work a bit better is as such:
Dave: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (15) + 2 = 17
Susan: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (19) + 1 = 20
Bob: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (10) - 1 = 9Goblins: 4d20 ⇒ (4, 7, 15, 10) = 36 +6 each
Initiative ordering works normally, so Goblin 3 would go first, but then Susan and Dave could take their turns in any order (functioning similar to how your system had it, with invalidated actions being substituted), then the other three goblins, and finally Bob goes.
This system allows a bit less freedom in post order than the bulk averaging you described, but has more respect for individual initiative, and doesn't break the action economy quite as much.
However, this is just a suggestion. You are the one running this game for us, so if you would prefer to run it with your system, I will respect that.
So that is essentially just initiative order...it doesn't really solve anything.
I think I have a way to fix it though...So, using my initiative rolls from before since I know what they are now...
Players: 3d20 + 5 ⇒ (13, 20, 8) + 5 = 46 / 3 ~ 15.333
Susan 24, Dave 15, Bob 7
Standard Goblins: 4d20 + 24 ⇒ (11, 12, 11, 3) + 24 = 61 / 4 ~ 15.25
The other option I have is that Monsters get an averaged initiative and act in a block, players go on their own initiative.
So in the first round Susan would go, then all of the goblins, then Dave and Bob, and then Susan again.
Essentially you still end up with block initiative (unless you have more than 2 groups of combatants), but people with high initiative still get the benefit of acting first in round 1.
I would still need to make -offense/+defense adjustments to monsters because of the block initiative action economy, but it might be a good compromise to not make the decision to invest in reactionary or improved initiative pointless.
What you guys think?
On the rest, I feel like I have enough input from everyone to make decisions.
ABP? I am going to say no. Sounds like most people are indifferent or feel like normal wealth progression will be more fun, and that's what we are here for.
Stamina Rules I will say yes* for now. This means the combat stamina feat is now available for selection. We will be going with the ruleset where you have to opt in by taking that feat, no classes get it automatically at Lv 1. Also, I reserve the right to make changes later down the line if I begin to see creeping balance issues. Most likely those changes would come in the form of adjusting how quickly you regain stamina points or what the impact of having zero stamina points left is and how long that impact lasts. One thought I have had is instead of being fatigued until you get a stamina point back you become fatigued until your stamina pool is back at full, or maybe until you take a full rest.
If no one opts in by taking the feat then you will not encounter rebuilt mobs with stamina pools either. But if players select it then it is fair game for the baddies.
Hidden Checks I heard no large objection, so we will be moving forward with this as described. Don't worry about missing out on Lore though...there are NPCs in the dungeon whose whole job it is to tell you what is going on.
Some of these rulings may cause you to want to do minor rebuilds on your characters (to take Combat Stamina or change plans in light of the ABP ruling). If you would like to you may do so now. I will be posting the first in game post tomorrow, but will not expect you to post until Thursday if you are doing any rebuilding.
Final decision on initiative probably by Friday. I don't think you will encounter combat before then anyways...maybe.
I would prefer players on their own. I tend to run all monsters of the same type go on the same initiative in my tabletop games, and that seems to be fine. I only roll the once though instead of rolling and averaging. So like if we are fighting a group of wargs and goblins, the goblins would go in a block, and so would the wargs
I will defer to the DM's decision on hidden skill rolls, initiative, and combat stamina.
On the issue of NPC vs. Mule/donkey, I think I'd like to take the third option and have both Dornhold and a donkey.
The other option I have is that Monsters get an averaged initiative and act in a block, players go on their own initiative.
I've seen ^this implemented very successfully on PbEM. The players with higher than monsters init go until the monsters turn...The GM Resolves, Next all the players post, then it's resolved by the GM again. rinse, repeat
Edit: By resolve, I mean the GM would take the Player's intentions into account. Say I post first and fire an arrow, but someone else is higher in init, and they kill the bad guy that I was aiming at...A resolution would be to pick the next best target (if any) based on my intent.
Edit again: Gah! Rereading what I wrote... I see that it could be taken as direction instead of clarification...I'm (poorly) just explaining what I've seen work. I'll be happy with whatever you're comfortable with.
I will defer to the DM's decision on hidden skill rolls, initiative, and combat stamina.
On the issue of NPC vs. Mule/donkey, I think I'd like to take the third option and have both Dornhold and a donkey.
Easy enough. I will build an alias for the DM-PC of Dornhold then. We can say that you have already bartered for his services prior to the beginning of the game.
Son of Atrau: No worries, you are saying the same thing as I am with different words.
In other news: Gameplay thread is up. Welcome to Ravensmoor everyone.
I will defer to the DM's decision on hidden skill rolls, initiative, and combat stamina.
On the issue of NPC vs. Mule/donkey, I think I'd like to take the third option and have both Dornhold and a donkey.
Greetings. My name is being Dornhold. My mace and skills are at your service Madam Khovihani
Greetings. My name is being Dornhold. My mace and skills are at your service Madam Khovihani
Greetings, brave Dornhold. I thank you for your service but as I am too young to be a Madam, best you call me Mistress Khovihani or simply Sayarisha as the occasion requires.
Unbeugasm, are you still around?
I apologize all if it feels we are starting off slowly. I judged to start us in RPsville rather than at the mouth of the dungeon. Once we get through the first bit of lore though we can time jump and fast travel to where the adventure really starts. You know, Indiana Jones red-dotted line style.
I'm fine with a little intro...
@Son of Atrau - is Sayarisha the raven-haired beauty?
I'm fine with a little intro...
@Son of Atrau - is Sayarisha the raven-haired beauty?
She definitely can be...;)
Of course I am. Just last night was game night and I did not check if the gameplay was yet open! Wasn´t last time I checked or would have dotted!
Cool beans...just making sure. :D
Already made my first post!
@Son of Atrau: sorry, but I'm not clear.
In your first in-game post:
It was a raven haired beauty that he watched for. Something inside him felt warm and anxious whenever he glimpsed her. She once stretched during the dawn hours of a glorious day, and the boy thought it was the most beautiful thing he had ever seen.
:
When asked a question directly from Ivonette, he looks away and then down. He glances upwards at the raven haired beauty and then back down.
In the first quote, is Son of Atrau watching a passenger on the caravan? And in the second quote it is unclear who Son of Atrau is looking at, given the preceding sentence indicates Ivonette. Is he looking at Sayarishi with his glance?
Sorry to be uber-specific, just confused as to what is actually going on.