Is a breath weapon an “attack”?

If a creature uses a breath weapon (a two- action option), then attacks with a claw, does that claw attack take an attack penalty? Or two?

If a creature uses a breath weapon (a two- action option), then attacks with a claw, does that claw attack take an attack penalty? Or two?

I would count the Breath as a single attack, so the claw would have 1 multi-attack penalty (-5, or less if it is Agile) This is the sane as if a Wizard took 2 actions to cast a spell attack, and used their 3rd action to attack with a dagger.

A breath weapon doesn't have the Attack trait on any of the entries I quickly checked, so it doesn't count as toward your Multiple Attack Penalty, IMO.

I think rule -is- the way Cydeth says it is, but -should- be the way Samurai says it is.

Personally, I don't think it should count toward MAP. See, a fireball doesn't have the attack trait, and neither does cone of cold, both of which take 2 actions to use. I honestly think it was quite deliberate that the breath weapons don't count toward MAP.

I think rule -is- the way Cydeth says it is, but -should- be the way Samurai says it is.

Do you think Fireball should apply MAP if you try to stab someone afterwards?

Tarondor wrote:

I think rule -is- the way Cydeth says it is, but -should- be the way Samurai says it is.

Do you think Fireball should apply MAP if you try to stab someone afterwards?

Should? Yes. The effort and attention required for the fireball is at least as distracting as a sword attack.

It's a sorta strange-ish inconsistency with magic.

Some magic, like Acid Arrow, has the attack trait. This seems to be the case for spells that have an attack roll, stuff you fling at someone and there's a chance you might not connect with the hit. Other magic, like Fireball, you also fling from your fingers at someone, but it targets a save (because it's an AoE, you could just target the ground at their feet and still catch them in the blast).

So if you're playing a gish and want to do damage with a spell and follow that up with a physical attack, you'd want to avoid Shocking Grasp and instead use Magic Missile, because the latter doesn't have attack roll. Or you'd opt for Lightning Bolt, because its AoE nature demands a Reflex save and requires the target to roll dice instead of you.

Breath attacks tend to be AoE, and so they're probably not meant to be affected by MAP. It's a bit unintuitive, but I guess dodging someone who's breathing fire is less about their ability to accurately work around your defenses or aim carefully and more about your ability to dodge roll out of the way.

The reason why things with saves don't have the attack trait is how would you apply MAP to it?

Like yes you could adjust the DC, or give the monster a bonus to its saves inverse to the penalty, but its not very clean. And if you don't do this adjustment, it just means that if a monster wanted to attack and breath fire in the same round you would be better off attacking, then breathing than breathing then attacking.

As there are no rules to adjust the DC of a spell or effect based on MAP, it is clear that they do not intend for these types of abilities to interact with MAP, hence no Attack trait.

The reason why things with saves don't have the attack trait is how would you apply MAP to it?

Like yes you could adjust the DC, or give the monster a bonus to its saves inverse to the penalty, but its not very clean. And if you don't do this adjustment, it just means that if a monster wanted to attack and breath fire in the same round you would be better off attacking, then breathing than breathing then attacking.

As there are no rules to adjust the DC of a spell or effect based on MAP, it is clear that they do not intend for these types of abilities to interact with MAP, hence no Attack trait.

I mean, it could have been avoided by just having you roll against the monster's Reflex DC, but that would require the bonus/penalty system to be adjusted to assume that the attacker always is the one to roll. If you rolled against an enemy's Reflex DC with all spells just as you're expected to roll against their Fortitude DC when making Grapple attempts or their Reflex DC when making Trip attempts, it'd work just the same.

Which is where we are now, it's this weird state where whether something gets MAP is a matter of who's rolling in the actual game. It doesn't quite map onto the "reality" of the game very well.

The reason why things with saves don't have the attack trait is how would you apply MAP to it?

But there are spells with the ATTACK trait with saves and no attack roll.

I would imagine that if you plan to cast any of these and STRIKE in the same round, you are better off Striking first, since the MAP penalty won't affect the spell. If you cast first then the Strike will be at -5.

Maybe trying to avoid a sword or an arrow coming from a specific character increases this character's difficulty of hitting you more than trying to avoid flames that burst all around you.

I think it's deliberate that Breath Weapons don't contribute to and aren't affected by MAP. Monsters with special abilities that are attacks have those abilities labeled as such - see the Dire Wolf and the Sea Serpent for examples. The technology to identify specific special abilities as attacks is used by the bestiary with some regularity, but is not used with breath weapons. (And is also not used with a variety of other offensive special abilities.)

A breath weapon doesn't have the Attack trait on any of the entries I quickly checked, so it doesn't count as toward your Multiple Attack Penalty, IMO.

QED. /thread