Hey folks, disappearing for a trip until next Tuesday. Sorry for the late notice. Good luck and feel free to NPC me as necessary.
I just read the Aid Another rules more closely. I previously read it as "when adjacent to an ally, you can help them against incoming attacks"
I thought the intent was that you are actively getting in the way of the incoming attacks. (you know, like a Bodyguard)
What it actually says is "when threatening an enemy, you may make it more difficult for enemies to attack other people."
Aid Another is far more aggressive an action than I ever thought. It focuses entirely on whether you threaten an enemy. It says nothing about being adjacent to an ally.
In fact, the best possible place to be when Aiding Another to boost AC is actually to be flanking with the person you are trying to protect.
These rules seem completely absurd to me. Here's why-
The best bodyguard is one with a polearm. Threatening the most squares possible is more important than standing next to the person you are trying to protect. When using In Harm's Way to take damage for someone, you're not stepping in front of the person you're protecting. You're stepping in the way of the person who is attacking. That means if you are behind an Ogre with a spear, and the ogre stabs at someone 20 feet in front of them (30 feet away from you), you can use In Harms Way to somehow take damage from a weapon that doesn't even threaten you!
It also means there is no way at all to "take a bullet" for someone. Bodyguards can never protect against Ranged attacks.
The way the Aid Another rules are worded makes the entire feat chain completely absurd. I should have been wielding a Halibard this entire time.
And I just noticed that anyone under Protection from Evil gets to re-roll a save against mind control and possession effects. FYI.
Mind-affecting fear is not mind control.
As for the aid another, I basically just believe Bodyguard can only be used when you're within natural reach of both the creature you're defending and the creature you're defending against.
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.
You have to be in melee range of the enemy that is in melee range of your friend. It doesn't say anything about actually being near your friend. Hence my example of the ogre.
Now that I think about it, the existence of Large+ creatures makes the wording even stupider. If you are wielding a regular weapon and standing next to the person you want to protect, and they are being attacked by anything that has a larger Reach than you, you can't protect your friend.
This new information pisses me of a lot. It basically invalidates my whole concept. Suddenly the way to make Garret work is to give him a Polearm. Why would a polearm make him better at guarding people? Reach should have nothing to do with it.
I understand what the rules say, but what I said is that generally my rule is just that you have to be able to naturally threaten (not with a reach weapon, but with natural reach) both the creature that you defend and the creature that's attacking them, unless it's a ranged weapon, in which case you can take the damage anyway.
In this way, Large-sized creatures or Aberrant sorcerers are the best Bodyguards.
If that's the case, then the bodyguard feat chain is almost impossible to use. Anything with Reach is impossible to defend against. Especially if you make the caveat natural reach instead of [/i]threatening the attacker[/i].
Its nice that you're opening the door to be able to protect against ranged attacks, but the need to be within reach of the enemy and the ally makes it completely impossible to protect against anything that has a larger reach than you. Most of the heavy hitters in the game have reach, and the feats are useless against them. Heck, a 20th level Bodyguard can't protect their friend against a five year old with a long stick.
The very fact that these rules make Sorcerers better bodyguards than paladins should be a pretty big red flag.
Sorry if this seems aggressive. This information has made me really angry. I've played quite a few bodyguard characters across multiple groups, both on and offline, and no one has pointed out that the rules don't work the way we all thought they did. Its infuriating.
The problem with using a weapon's reach is that you can stand BEHIND someone, carrying a longspear, and defend them against an adjacent attacker. I can understand standing in front of or behind someone and guarding them against a reaching attacker who's reaching over you to get to them, but that's another thing entirely.
I honestly think that in-game, it should just be implemented on a case-by-case basis, but I think you need to be able to actually threaten the opponent and be adjacent to your ally, at the very least. How, for example, can you attract the attention of the attacking enemy if you're too far away for them to hit you? And how can you step in front of your ally if you're 15' away from them?
I have no idea. That's why I think that the only deciding factor should be "adjacent to the ally you want to protect."
Then you just somehow interpose yourself between them and an incoming attack (yes, even if you're behind your ally. I can think of a dozen ways to do that. Reach your shield around them from behind for the AC bonus. If it would still hit them, put your arm in the way. Or grab them by the shoulders, whirl around, get stabbed in the back, and then complete the turn back to your original position)
Case by case is fine I guess. It still seems strange to me that I could protect against an arrow or a sword, but not a spear.
It just occurred to me that a Witch's hair would be better at protecting someone than a Fighter's shield. Now I'm annoyed all over again.
Sounds like a FAQ candidate.
I think that's a good rule to use, Garret, at least for Bodyguard. Aid anothers in general are different - if you want to aid attack rolls, for example, you basically need to make an attack roll.
Other such things.
I recommend FAQ-ing it, yeah.
The rules are pretty clear. I don't think an FAQ is going to get a response that fixes the issue. It's just going to say "yep, you understand the rule."
For my games I'm just going to House Rule it so that it works the way it aught to.
I am vindicated!
This is what Author of the Bodyguard feats has to say on the subject!
It isn't official of course, but its what the author wanted. He just apparently made the same mistake I did regarding how the Aid Another rules actually work.
Hooray!
For the record, I just read it to consider taking it in another game I'm in, and I read it the same way Garret did. "Aid another action" = "attack roll vs AC 10".
Although looking at the text of the actual rule, I can see an argument for saying that that's the case even RAW. The first few (problematic) lines are simply saying when you can do that action, and the Bodyguard feat adds a second scenario you can do it in.
It just occurred to me that Crane Style could probably have deflected that last attack. I'm not at all sure how it interacts with incorporeal attacks though. I do have a force effect shield and a ghost touch weapon that can effect the banshee, but crane style specifically says that the deflection happens with the open hand.
GM, what are your thoughts on this?
I've remembered the Crane Style, and I think I want to say that you can't deflect an incorporeal creature's attacks with your open palm unless you are, yourself, incorporeal in some way.
If you, for example, had the effects of blink or ethereal jaunt on yourself, you'd totally be good using Crane Wing to block the creature's attacks, but because the Banshee's attacks (and body) can actually travel through you, it doesn't really make sense that you can block its attacks bare-handed.
Ya know?
Ok, no problem. That's the way I'd rule it too, but the text could be argued either way so i thought I would check.
Shadassa, can you cast Raise Dead or Breath of Life?
I'm pretty sure Garret is going to die here too.
No, Raise Dead is a 5th level spell, and I don't have any...and I don't have Breath of Life. :\ Providing the banshee is walled in, I can CCW Garret and we can retreat.
There is a slim chance you might be able to just blow up the Banshee with a cure spell at your level.
If I target the banshee IN the wall of fire, she takes double damage.
She is incorporeal, she'll only take half and she'll get a reflex save (to avoid I think) if you place it right on top of her.
I really wish I had something to contribute, but about all I could do would be try to drag Garret, or try to fire off a wand if someone has a semi-useful one. I built for traps to the exclusion of everything else, and now it's coming back to haunt me. :(
Aviel does have a nice heap of magic items you might be able to use, if you're willing to try and get to it. Including a scroll of Teleport. Also, don't forget you are all hasted for quite possibly the rest of this fight.
It's unfortunate that no one knows what Aviel's Headband does. It actually grants ranks in UMD, so Shadassa with her charisma score would stand a really high chance of using scrolls and the like.
Aviel does have a nice heap of magic items you might be able to use, if you're willing to try and get to it. Including a scroll of Teleport. Also, don't forget you are all hasted for quite possibly the rest of this fight.
I'd be willing to go back in for them - the banshee has pretty much ignored me so far, so I ought to be able to survive a round or two with it.
It's unfortunate that no one knows what Aviel's Headband does. It actually grants ranks in UMD, so Shadassa with her charisma score would stand a really high chance of using scrolls and the like.
Useful.
Crud. I forgot being Hasted too! An extra attack could have turned the tide.
Garret and Aviel died because of player incompetence. I'm sorry guys. I really botched that fight.
Garret was the most fearsomely optimized fighting type I've seen; nothing to be ashamed of.
I had no idea banshees could fly :(
Garret is actually a prototype of this particular build. He worked pretty much the way I want him to, but clearly there's a glaring weakness. If I ever use this mechanical foundation for another character I'm going to find a way to get Ghost Touch armor. The inability to Parry attacks from incorporeal creatures wipes out about 1/3rd of Garret's defenses and damage output.
Another sad fact of player incompetence, just looked over your sheet and noticed your Paladin Oath against Undead, the 3rd level ability does in fact give your armor the Ghost-touch ability... so you technically had it covered. You just forgot you did.
G#*!%+it.
This is the problems with being in too many games and having infrequent fights. I completely forgot how Garret works.
....... Ouch.
Suddenly we wake up and it was just a nightmare sent by the lich?
Ha! That would certainly be one way to do it.
I know for a fact that Garret had a potion of cure moderate wounds in a wrist sheath, if you're looking to bring back Shadassa and ensure at least two leave the crypt alive.
Also, remember that you're in Cheliax, so if you'd like to return to Westcrown to get folks rezzed, we can keep going.
Or we can stop.
Or we can continue with just the two.
Your choice.
Oh, true. I forgot we're high enough level for resurrection to be an option.
I'm good for that. Or any of the other options. I'd prefer not to stop, but no way am I continuing on solo. :p
I'd love to continue. I'm just not posting due to a slight case of death.
I'm bleeding out. I see the tunnel leading to the aboleths!
I know the game is slow, but in case anything happens--I am out from 7/5-7/11 in the wilderness. See you afterwards!
Oh that's gruesome, unexpected, and somehow unsurprising.
…what gear did they have again? :D
I'll find it and post it later today :)
Lol ... Pcs: murderous hobos
Lexi! You resurrected! USA!! USA!! USA!!
Well ... I'' m alive ... I'' sure Holly died horribly
Glad you're alright Lexi. When you vanished for a while I was worried about you. Hope things have gotten better for you.
Well, things are certainly different. :) I think I am just easily anxious about whatever is going on. But I'm alright. Just ... different.
Yeah, wow. Were I still alive, I'd be able to teleport you all out. Actually, you're in luck. In my inventory is in fact a scroll of Teleport. And my Headband of Vast Intelligence just so happens to have Use Magic Device and Knowledge: Planes.
Saren's Stuff
A javelin, a heavy crossbow with 20 bolts, a belt of giant strength +2, a monk's robe, a headband of inspired wisdom +2, an amulet of mighty fists +2, a ring of protection +1, a cloak of resistance +2, wands of mage armor, expeditious retreat, enlarge person, and shield, as well as a whole bunch of mundane gear.
Gralamin's Stuff
a 1st-level pearl of power, a wand of magic missile (49 charges), a mwk dagger, a cloak of resistance +2, a handy haversack, a headband of vast intelligence +4, lenses of detection, a ring of protection +1, a ring of sustenance, an everburning torch, a whole bunch of mundane gear, and his two spellbooks
Isletta's Stuff
a lesser rod of extend spell, a wand of detect secret doors (38 charges), an amulet of spell cunning, a belt of mighty constitution +4, boots of escape, a cloak of resistance +3, gloves of reconnaisance, a headband of vast intelligence +4, an orange ioun stone, a bunch of mundane gear, her three spellbooks, 1500gp in diamond/granite dust, and the staff of dark flame.
Feel free to take any of it.
Sorry for vanishing. I worked almost a week's worth of overtime from Thursday thru Monday of the holiday weekend. I'm still trying to get back on top of everything that fell by the wayside.
I'm posting this in all my games, then I'll go try to catch up and actually post in them. Expect something from me by the end of the weekend, if I don't get stuck with more overtime...
Did Holly actually die? Or did she gallop off? :D