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OOC Thread.
Character profile crunch pretty much done.
And yes, Yellow's maximum result for initiative checks is 1.
More technology to post. Maybe more tonight or tomorrow.
My current thought for Yellow's magical method is that he believes Jungian archetypes and dream symbolism denote the true nature and function of things. So, to create an effect, he must incorporate a person, place, or object whose Jungian nature/function matches that of the effect he wishes to produce. (I realize that Jung doesn't exist in Dunwall, it's just the RL basis of the belief system he's created for himself, being a living dream.)
I'm thinking I'm going to drop Arete to 2 and buy 7 or 8 dots in Spheres. My short term end goal would be something like Life 1, Matter 1, Mind 2, Prime 3, Spirit 3, though obviously I won't have the points to hit all of those. Not sure whether I want to buy at least 1 dot in all of them and work up from there, or leave some out and pick them up during play.
I would also be interested in taking more Flaws if the 7-point cap was lifted. Both for the freebie points and for character development. I realize I can take Flaws without gaining the freebie points for them, but it doesn't hurt to ask :)
FYI I'm going to re-work my entire character point distribution. I realized this past weekend that I was wasting the opportunity to really reinvent Yellow; I was basically making a watered-down version of the old Yellow with a very DnD mindset about his abilities. I have a much fresher vision in mind that really incorporates the awesome new background of this Yellow.
I'll be working on him this week and will hopefully have a pretty complete build by this weekend. I'll also post up a complete list of the flaws I'm interested in taking sometime this week.
After speaking with Ed I am lifting the limit on merits and flaws. I trust you two not to abuse it.
Hey. I'm in.
I agree with lifting the limits. I don't have plans to exceed them by much, but it is good to not be constrained during conception.
Ed, can you post or email me the plain text of whatever template you use for your character? (as you did for Helorus.) That way, I'll fill in my latest draft in that same format and we can compare apples-to-apples as we iterate on the designs.
I've emailed you the character sheet format.
I've emailed you the character sheet format.
Got it. Thanks. I'll have my current draft transcribed in the next few days.
My ideas are starting to gel a bit more. Today's topic: Attributes!
I'm definitely taking Mental Attributes as tertiary, probably Perception 2, Intelligence 1, Wits 3. I still haven't decided whether Physical or Social will be primary, which breaks down to either having a high Stamina or a high Appearance. Is it more important for Yellow to be tough, or impressive?
My thought for the high Appearance is to use it in conjunction with traditionally physical skills to make grand entrances and first impressions. Appearance + Athletics to flip off the roof and land effortlessly in the midst of enemies, or + Melee to flourish a weapon like a master at the beginning of combat. After all, the look is key.
But then Stamina makes you not take damage. Which is pretty handy.
It's a tough call; it's a tough catalogue.
Ian, as you read through the magic rules, please keep in mind that the magic system is very loose and has grey areas; we'll have to work as a group (in RL) to determine some specifics of how magic works.
I actually kind of like that, as it allows you to tailor the magic to your campaign/setting - anything from uber-repressive modern magical realism to demigod/superhero level stuff, depending on how you want your game to play.
Mark did a good job of explaining the system to me in person---there seems to be a hard count of dice but a whole lot of roleplay around the rote and the situation, etc. I'm not really reading for the rules; I'm reading in order to get a feel for how and when magic will make its appearances. For right now, I'm really working on how she would have developed her understanding and abilities as a necessity of her disability/exceptionality. The actual quantitative mechanics make sense and 80% of my character came together on paper pretty painlessly.
The discussion about attributes is a good one. I'll have mine transcribed for you to look at soon. Some of my open questions for my character are about your character, so it will be good to iterate.
I think I described my vision for Yellow to Mark as "a beat noir pulp hero."
I think I described my vision for Yellow to Mark as "a beat noir pulp hero."
I'm thinking a lot of Bill Lee from Naked Lunch (only not high, because it's all real). Is that right?
I'm also thinking existentially in that if your character is pure dream, etc., then mine should perhaps be mundane. That is, if not a foil, then an least a contrast so that it will be rare that both characters are ever both in their element simultaneously.
I don't mean mundane as in boring---more like really tied to the not-dream world.
Any objection to Ceridwyn as a name?
https://www.behindthename.com/name/ceridwen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8seQb9FoE
If surnames are in use Dunwall, then I'd probably argue for
Chamser = ferch + amser
meaning "daughter of time" in Welsh. That is, if we go with a supernatural or supertemporal origin for her, then the I'd work her illegitimacy into her origin story.
I'm pretty sure that she's going to look a lot like Vastra's domestic/lover Jenny from Doctor Who.
I'm going with Welsh because I think of our city as London and I want her to come from outside the city; Wales seems like a good idea.
I think I described my vision for Yellow to Mark as "a beat noir pulp hero."I'm thinking a lot of Bill Lee from Naked Lunch (only not high, because it's all real). Is that right?
OMG, correct me, 'cause I can't get Peter Weller out of my head, now.
I think I described my vision for Yellow to Mark as "a beat noir pulp hero."I'm thinking a lot of Bill Lee from Naked Lunch (only not high, because it's all real). Is that right?OMG, correct me, 'cause I can't get Peter Weller out of my head, now.
Much more pulp action hero than Bill Lee. More like the Rick Veitch version of the Question.
Much more pulp action hero than Bill Lee. More like the Rick Veitch version of the Question.I think I described my vision for Yellow to Mark as "a beat noir pulp hero."I'm thinking a lot of Bill Lee from Naked Lunch (only not high, because it's all real). Is that right?OMG, correct me, 'cause I can't get Peter Weller out of my head, now.
OK. I just went and read one of those. That is a lot more dynamic and physical than I was thinking---good to know.
Any objection to Ceridwyn as a name?
I'm going with Welsh because I think of our city as London and I want her to come from outside the city; Wales seems like a good idea.
BTW, I know there is no Wales in Dunwall; I simply want a little scaffolding. The backstory is coming together and I don't plan to invoke any specific Welsh culture or anything.
I'm starting to really like the time-traveller idea for her. She will be natural-born in the future but her presence in our day and age will essentially satisfy the "living paradox" idea. I've got a pretty robust story of her arrival and childhood worked up and I am amending it as I read through the Mage book.
I want to try and have Yellow process the physical world as metaphor. So, for example, instead of posting:
Yellow climbs the ladder into the attic.
I'd do something more like:
Yellow ascends, sublimating himself into the discarded thoughts and memories of prior inhabitants.
Or possibly a mix of the two, to avoid RL confusion; the first as statement of fact, the second as Yellow perceives it:
Yellow climbs the ladder into the attic. I ascend, sublimating myself into the discarded thoughts and memories of prior inhabitants.
I'm currently working on ideas for personal foci for each Sphere; basically a symbol that encompasses the basic concept of the whole Sphere. I just got this massive "dictionary of symbols" type book that I'm beginning to work my way through. Unfortunately it indexes the symbols, but not their meanings, so I can't just flip to all the symbols for "spirit", for example.
I foresee heavy use of the Mind and Spirit Spheres by Yellow to sense the resonance and psychic imprints of people, places, and things.
Ian, I emailed you a new character sheet format that I think is a little better organized. Annoyingly it seems gmail has hidden blocks of text that are identical to that of my first email. I'll send it to you as an attachment as well.
Yo. I'm live. Please check out my character sheet and let me know if I did it right. My next step is to fill in my freebie buys.
I filled in my point buys and cleaned up the profile a bit.
The more I read the book, the more I am realizing that Entropy is not what I understand it to be from my physics training. Perhaps she is not three dots of Entropy? ie, she is more Time than Entropy rather than equal parts. The Entropy in the book seems to be more like luck and fate rather than the thermodynamic arrow of time, which is where I'm coming from. On the other hand, the Affect Life on p 162 is what I'm going for. I'm wondering if I should give up a dot in Entropy and pick one up in Life; the Transform Self and life-pattern stuff is essentially what she does to herself as she manages her "disability." I've also got some backstory brewing that will likely involve some Life in her childhood. What do you think about my Sphere situation?
Other thoughts of mine include wanting to pick up Commerce (listed in Ed's template) rather than Law as a Knowledge Ability. I only picked up Law because it was the closest thing I could find to explaining her success at her "consultancy" in Dunwall. Any objections to me switching those dots over?
I'm also really wary of her Manipulation being only one dot. I'm not sure that I can play my concept of her (a closeted lesbain; a closeted mage) without at least a little Manipulation. How does Manipulation as an Attribute compare with Subterfuge as a Talent? I don't think of her as a professional liar. Nor do I think of her as above average in charisma. However, anyone who makes a living as a consultant has to be able to keep up a bit of a poker face if confronted with their b$*+$*~@ (or confronted with their mistress). My gut is telling me that I need to buy a dot of Manipulation. If so, should I sell two Spheres of Entropy? using the points for one Sphere of Life and some more points for Manipulation.
Or, should I be looking through the Flaws to find some more points? I don't want to go overboard in that department.
Also, I want her to be from a rural upbringing---not a farmer by trade, but someone who would have spent a lot of time outside, a lot of time around manual labor and agrarian mechanical equipment, etc. Trips to large cities would have been somewhat rare, but small and large towns would have been quite familiar and cultured society would not have been wholly foreign.
Is it more appropriate to have her origin be from the boonies of Gristol or from the wholly different island of Morely? I've not yet read my Moorcock, so if there is something important about that choice, please let me know. Otherwise, I am leaning toward rural Gristol.
I'll look over your character profile in detail tonight.
Regarding Manipulation: The Manipulation stat represents being able to get people to do what you want, whereas Charisma represents getting people to like/respect you. So someone with a high Manipulation can convince/trick others into taking the actions they want them to, whereas someone with a high Charisma can make others want to help them, but can't dictate how someone chooses to attempt to help them.
So Yellow, for instance, will be very good at getting people to want to help him (Charisma 5), and very bad at influencing or directing how people express that desire (Manipulation 1). Whereas someone with the inverse stats - Manipulation 5, Charisma 1 - would be generally disliked or hated, but still able to get people to do what he wants despite that fact.
While Subterfuge is most often Manipulation based (you want to make people believe your lies), Manipulation can also be used with other skills where you want to compel someone to a specific action - like, say, Manipulation + a Knowledge to skew the presentation of data to favor a particular conclusion.
Regarding Entropy: Yes, the Mage Sphere of Entropy deals more with probability, based off the definition of entropy as "a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, ."
So it's about controlling disorder and randomness, and thus slowing or accelerating the decay of a system. It's also fairly heavily focused on making systems produce the specific outcome you desire, because just making s@@& stay in good condition or fall apart would probably get old after a while.
Regarding Setting: While Mage and Moorcock explore some of the same concepts, the Dunwall setting isn't actually from one of Moorcock's works, so I wouldn't worry about not having read any. I'm not the GM, but I'd think the closer to Dunwall you're originally from, the better, unless Mark has specific ideas about developing outlying areas.
Ed: thanks.
Spheres: They are walking a weird line between Time and Entropy, but I am pretty sure that I can play it. I see her situation/disability as basically two parts Entropy and one part Life, so I'll probably move one dot, leaving two in Entropy. She is without a doubt a Time mage, so three there works well. Having an Entropic Resonance works into this well, too.
Manipulation: Your explanation is what I want to hear, so I will go with it! Basically, I was derailed at their example of "no poker face" because I don't see her as transparent. However, I do see her as pretty honest (if withholding sometimes) and not manipulative, which is why I split Charisma and Manipulation and Subterfuge as I did originally. I'll probably leave it.
I won't decide on any of this until Mark weighs in, of course. Please let me know if you see anything else on the sheet.
What Ed said, I will take a more detailed look at your sheet tonight.
Finance:
This knowledge represents a character’s
understanding of commerce, economics and trade,
and covers evaluation of an item’s worth as well as
knowledge of exchange rates and the stock market.
Finance is essential for characters who work with
large quantities of money and resources – Or those
that wish to keep such monies hidden from the
proper authorities.
Skill Ratings
• You’ve taken some business classes
•• You have some practical experience; your bookkeeping is pretty neat
••• You’d make a fine stock broker
•••• You can advise corporations in financial matters
••••• Syndicate hasn’t got s*~# on you.
You are probably right about law. You might want to leave 1-2 dots for some business law.
Ian, looks to me like all your numbers add up.
What's your idea for her consultancy business? Does she only consult in certain fields, and if so, what are they?
I have re-read (and re-read) the section on the Spheres and am conflicted again. I think that I see where they are coming from now and that I should be heavier on Entropy than Time. I'll write up a bit of justification today or tomorrow for final adjudication by you two. I'm really not trying to get Ceridwyn stuck in development Hell here---now that I am sketching out her back story, this is starting to gel. Perhaps I'll drop my story outline into her Profile and then you can tell me where the dots need to be.
What's your idea for her consultancy business? Does she only consult in certain fields, and if so, what are they?
I think that she'll be focused on the manufacturing sector more so than services. My idea is that she can use her Intelligence to discern really subtle market needs and futures (in the commodities sense) so that she can help a business set itself up for success---kind of like a divine clock-maker, one small firm at a time. Not scrying; simply astute observation. (Like with Rick walked into Needful Things and called the Devil out.) In addition, magic-wise, she can be physically present at important negotiations and contract signings and factory tours in order to sway processes in her clients' favor.
That latter point seems to be what White Wolf Entropy is about. Even though her origin is one of Time travel, I think that Entropy (and a little Life, but only on her own Pattern) will be more her shtick. I'll sketch out a story and you can judge for yourself.
The most important thing is how you believe your magic works. You (and I) have to have that understanding, especially the methodology of creating an effect.
The most important thing is how you believe your magic works. You (and I) have to have that understanding, especially the methodology of creating an effect.
I'm still good with the concept that we discussed initially:
- For Entropy magic: scramble puzzles like Rubik's Cube. Playing with such a toy is a particular focus. Visualizing the permutations and realizing them on the toy allows her to develop an understanding of the likelihood of the situation that she wants to bring into being. She might carry a "pocket calculator" which is actually a little 15-square slider puzzle or something that she can break out during a client meeting, etc. Really intense magic would involve manipulating a complicated multi-dimensional puzzle for a while... Her analytical Intelligence and her gift for spatial Enigmas all inform/follow from this focus.
- For Time magic: metered rhyme and/or lyrical music, perhaps to a lesser extent drums or dance. Being able to lose herself to the flow of time allows her to focus on the Effect rather than on her subjective flow. This has its origin in having been sung to sleep and/or read nursery rhymes by her de facto mother. Indeed, much of her self-repair of her "condition" occurs while she is lost in something metered while falling asleep (or outright sleeping).
I'm going to enter a sketch of her backstory into her profile now. I'll let you know when it's ready so that you can tell me if all of this adds up. I'll also switch my dots around while I'm in the profile---feedback there is also welcome!
Alright, I've put my outline of her backstory in the History of her profile. Please read it when you have a chance and let me know if it jives with how I spent my points.
I've also updated my Spheres:
Four dots in Entropy. Affect Life, Blight of Aging, and Midwife's Blessing all kick in a four. These ideas seem key to my concept.
One dot in Time. She really only needs Time Sense, not Distort Time nor Time Warp. I can see that they want the Arrow of Time to be the Entropy Sphere and the Dilation of Time to be the Time Sphere. The passage on Time Manipulation in pp. 190--191 makes perfect sense as a thermodynamics/relativity breakdown...until the last paragraph about "rewind" and "loop" which makes no sense at all to me. Overall, though, I see that Ceridwyn is about Entropy with a bit of Time. (Her parents were balls-out Time mages, though!) The aging backward in her History is meant to emphasize the Arrow of Time (which is about probabilities and entropy) more so than the speed of time or the coordinate of time.
One dot in Life. Little more than Sense Life, but she must have some competence in applying Entropy to Life, if only to her own life. I don't think that what Ceridwyn does rises to Transform Self because her disability is more of a 7-point Flaw, not a 7-point Sphere. For life here, I'm going with a definition like Schroedinger's
Living matter is that which avoids the decay into equilibrium. The second law of thermodynamics says that entropy (disorder) always increases. Living things are highly ordered and seem to go against the second law of thermodynamics; however, they can only do this at the cost of increasing the entropy in the environment around them.
http://sci-hub.hk/10.1525/abt.2013.75.1.11
So here's an attempt at summarizing her basic magical method as I see it: Recontextualizing reality into abstract mathematical forms (2 and 3 dimensional puzzles for Entropy, meter/music for Time) allows her to more readily manipulate ideas to visualize/"prove" her desired results; the more complicated the result, the more complicated the abstract form. (If she picks up more dots in Time, I can see her going from simple nursery rhymes for 1 dot effects into more and more complicated meters/rhythms/time signatures for higher dot effects; for powerful effects mixing Entropy and Time I see her going all-out John Cage Variations.)
An attempt to summarize Yellow's basic magical method: Recontextualing reality into archetypal symbols, Yellow draws their meaning out of the Universe's subconscious mind (the Dreamlands) into the Universe's conscious mind (the physical world) to produce the desired effects; the availability of symbols limits his options for effects. (Of course, Yellow wouldn't say it this way, but this is my basic idea.)
One dot in Life. Little more than Sense Life, but she must have some competence in applying Entropy to Life, if only to her own life.
You can always affect yourself with your own magic, even without Life 1, so if that's the only real reason you're taking it you can spend that dot somewhere else.
One dot in Life. Little more than Sense Life, but she must have some competence in applying Entropy to Life, if only to her own life.You can always affect yourself with your own magic, even without Life 1, so if that's the only real reason you're taking it you can spend that dot somewhere else.
What you state was also my initial impression. However, the ladder of abilities for Life on p. 168ff are all self, self, self as if increased ability is needed even for self.
My very first draft had one dot in Mind rather than Life.
I'd be very happy with four in Entropy and two in Time and zero out Life and Mind, but I'll let the GM rule on that. One in Time seems too few for Ceridwyn and three in Time seems too many. I'm only considering Life or Mind for technical reasons—they are not informing my concept at all (but perhaps they should be!).
As I read it, Life 1 allows you to sense life patterns; Life 2 allows you to heal yourself and alter bacteria, plants, invertebrates, algae, and fungi; Life 3 allows you to alter yourself and completely transform the aforementioned life forms (i.e. turn a snail into a tree.)
Re-reading the magic rules, you don't actually need a dot in a Sphere to target anything with magic, except Correspondence if your target isn't in line of sight. What you can actually do to those things is somewhat limited, however. For instance, to directly affect another (not yourself) living creature with Entropy you need Entropy 4 - lesser effects may create problems for people by affecting the environment around them, but you can't just straight up make someone drop dead until then.
One of the things I like about Mage is that you can usually figure out a way to achieve the result you're looking for with the means at hand, so long as you don't get caught up on a particular pre-conceived how and you think outside the box a little.
One of the things I like about Mage is that you can usually figure out a way to achieve the result you're looking for with the means at hand, so long as you don't get caught up on a particular pre-conceived how and you think outside the box a little.
I completely agree; that is how Mark described it to me. However, the other edge of that sword is that it doesn't matter what I spend my points on because I can just talk up a good story for an arbitrary Effect that is unrelated to my Spheres, etc. So, I want to play it straight and spend points where I ought to spend points or else the point limit is meaningless.
My feeling is that I don't need Life or Mind except for my Flaw, which is already enshrined with points. I don't plan to use or to develop any Life or Mind abilities, so it is simply a perfunctory spending of points if the GM says that it is needed. As far as my character and the Effects that I expect to want to gameplay: 4 Entropy and 2 Time seems appropriate.
So here's an attempt at summarizing her basic magical method as I see it: Recontextualizing reality into abstract mathematical forms (2 and 3 dimensional puzzles for Entropy, meter/music for Time) allows her to more readily manipulate ideas to visualize/"prove" her desired results; the more complicated the result, the more complicated the abstract form.
For me, the whole idea is trying to get away from any recontextualization or re-expression, mathematical or otherwise. While certainly there are various descriptions of Entropy and thermodynamics and probability, they are all inherently limiting because they are descriptions of the thing: not the thing itself. By playing with a toy like a Cube, she can see the empirical fact in action, which is much better than reading a description of the situation. As an example, consider a Cube that is near a solved state such that one must take it into a less-ordered state en route to the hoped-for more ordered state. Seeing this play out on the toy gets her flow going to see all of the ordering and disordering necessary for her desired Effect. The less of her conscious self that she needs to dedicate to considering contextualizations of entropy, the better.
(If she picks up more dots in Time, I can see her going from simple nursery rhymes for 1 dot effects into more and more complicated meters/rhythms/time signatures for higher dot effects; for powerful effects mixing Entropy and Time I see her going all-out John Cage Variations.)
For Time, rhyme and music serves to channel her mind so that she doesn't have to. I certainly like the idea of the character of musical pieces being tied to the desired Effect. Variations is a good example, but is quite spatial and so would probably only fit certain situations.
Another example of limited applicability would be Musica Ricercata by Ligeti; in particular, the seventh movement for piano. Although the composer gives a tempo marking for the left hand, it is really something where the musician would groove the ostinato at a tempo of their choosing and the right hand would have a very subjective temporal relationship. In some situations, this piece would allow her to really fire on all cylinders.
However, even Ligeti willingly tied his own hands with this piece. He arranged it for wind quintet and, in doing so, had to fix a tempo because he had to pass the phrase from instrument to instrument―limited by the capabilities of the instruments themselves and by their need to interrelate. So, there may be some situations where the desired Effect is more like a wind quintet than a piano and she finds herself inspired, but limited.
Nursery rhymes are comfortable (to her and everyone) and therefore are very Coincidental. Her focus grew from inherently wanting to become Coincidental to our timeline, so she has never even thought to stray beyond much her Flaw for Effects. Something like Messaien's Quartet for the End of Time could have some very energizing passages, but is more likely to have some detrimental effects on focusing.
An attempt to summarize Yellow's basic magical method: Recontextualing reality into archetypal symbols, Yellow draws their meaning out of the Universe's subconscious mind (the Dreamlands) into the Universe's conscious mind (the physical world) to produce the desired effects; the availability of symbols limits his options for effects. (Of course, Yellow wouldn't say it this way, but this is my basic idea.)
Nice. Is it possible that there are archetypes that humanity has not yet discovered/experienced? if so, can he use those without Vulgarity? or is Yellow limited to that which humanity has already dreamed?
Nice. Is it possible that there are archetypes that humanity has not yet discovered/experienced? if so, can he use those without Vulgarity? or is Yellow limited to that which humanity has already dreamed?
Currently he's limited to that which has already been dreamed, though not necessarily just by humanity. I think this fits with the idea that he personally can never dream; indeed, at his root he's really just a symbol for the idealized selves of five alternate versions of the same man. (Given that I bought a fairly incomplete book on symbolism and it still contains 800 symbols, I don't think I'll run out anytime soon.)
If we encounter some non-human culture with radically different symbolism, or if new symbols arise due to invention/time travel (ie trains are invented and become symbolic of progress, or something like that), he'll definitely make an attempt to discern their import.
For me, the whole idea is trying to get away from any recontextualization or re-expression, mathematical or otherwise... Seeing this play out on the toy gets her flow going to see all of the ordering and disordering necessary for her desired Effect. The less of her conscious self that she needs to dedicate to considering contextualizations of entropy, the better.
I get you now. Now, another question: What does Ceridwyn believe the mechanism of her magic is? Why does it work? Despite what he believes Yellow doesn't actually bring manifestations of the Universe's subconscious Dreamlands into its conscious material world, it's just what he thinks he's doing, because our characters don't actually know that what they do is an act of sheer will.
What does Ceridwyn think she's doing?