Okay, that sounds good. for now, I'll try to set a deadline for this afternoon. i'm going to check through any remainign submissions that haven't gotten approved, and then – if we're pretty much ready to go – I'll do some randomizations.
Master of the Pits, do you have a gladiator? Or do you want to randomize?
Also, Mbauers, you ready to arbitrate a few of the matches?
And sorry for the delay, everyone.
I am a available as well, should youall have need.
I am a available as well, should youall have need.
We might need you in Pit One actually. you could tell us if we have cover from each other without giving up our positions.
Choon, I PM'd you Riti's position if you're in for helpign us get our cover situation resolved. :)
I'm here as well, I'll be working on creating a gladiator today, just to see how that goes. Also I believe Elmer will be rejoining somewhat shortly. Eben/Choon, let me know if you need or want anything from me in terms of arbitrating things. Would you prefer me to do randomizations?
Why don't you do the randomizations? Then either we can just step into matches as its needed, or we can divvy the fights up among the arbiters. Anyone have a preference?
...and it's over!! Hallelujah! lol That was an amazing battle of well not cat and mouse...more like mouse and mouse lol. Well done to both though!
Sheesh... seriously.
I had to overspend my consumables budget to survive, though. Ritti's now working from a reduced budget. But I guess if the alternative was taking yet anotehr loss.. not much of a choice.
I will do my best to arbitrate some matches, but realistically I won't have much availability until 2 days from now.
Well let's have a full sound-off, I'll try to have a character somewhere in it :D
I also am in favor of the suggestion to attempt a particular day of the week for randomization, though this might cause some people to have to wait longer if their fight goes over time.
Anyhow, anyone who wants in on this round's randomization, post away.
Rolg Lvl 4
Ritti Lvl 3
Here's my list of people who submitted this round from my google doc:
Level 3
Alistar Nodd
Arian (pending equipment check)
Bruno
Elik (needs checking)
Gnasher
Lazarus
Level 4
Elinora
Jezebel Quick (needs checking)
Liane (needs checking)
Rolg
Arian is ready, just need a ruling on the potion in a wrist sheath thing. Was that ruled on?
Yes, sorry, I've been struggling to keep all communications up. Jehova thinks that's fine, as well. So spring-loaded wrist sheaths can be use to house and draw potions as quickly as wands and daggers.
Jezebel and Elik are good to go except for being checked.
I've encountered a rule issue in my character creation that I have been unable to get a particularly clear answer on. The question is whether or not a Paladin/Ranger of levels 1-3 is able to use a scroll containing a spell that is on their spell list, despite not being able to actually cast spells yet, and without having an actual "caster level". This is pretty important question for the arena, so I'd like to show you my thought process on it, some previous discussion, and my intended ruling.
Here are a few discussions on the topic:
It seems pretty obvious that the Paladin/Ranger can meet the initial three qualifications to be able to cast the spell, which are (from the PRD) as follows:
• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
• The user must have the spell on her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.
There has been a small amount of argument that a 1-3 level Paladin/Ranger has no spell list, but this seems about as foolish as saying a 1st level Wizard has no 9th level spell list (from which he can obviously use scrolls despite not possessing the ability to cast the spells himself). See also the rules of spell trigger items, such a scrolls, which Paladins/Rangers can use with no problems. "Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin."
This is obviously about spell trigger items only, but the phrasing makes me more convinced that a Paladin/Ranger who cannot yet cast spells is still considered to have a spell list.
With those three requirements fulfilled, we come to the final requirement for casting a scroll with no checks, which is "caster level at least equal to the spell's caster level". The Paladin/Ranger (having no caster level whatsoever, like a Fighter or Rogue) does not meet this requirement, and thus in order to cast a Paladin/Ranger spell from a scroll they need to make a caster level check.
This is the part where the arguments tend to diverge. A caster level check is made by adding one's caster level to a d20 roll and comparing it to the DC. The argument against Paladins/Rangers being unable to use scrolls until 4th level rests on the assumption that a character with no caster level is unable to roll a caster level check. The only official stance of any Paizo developer I have seen agreed with this, though someone elsewhere cited Skip Williams as having said that in this case the caster level would be treated as zero, and the check is rolled normally. I feel that Skip's opinion on this is should be taken into consideration since the Pathfinder scroll rules were copy-pasted from 3.5.
Under the rules for activating a scroll using UMD: "Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list." There is mention of faking an ability score to fulfill the initial requirements, but there is not any mention of faking any sort of caster level, so it is my assumption that a character would still need to make the caster level check or risk a mishap. In this case a character with no caster level would make a caster level check.
It is my opinion that a Paladin/Ranger would be able to roll the caster level check and cast a spell from their spell list at any level, adding nothing to their check since they do not yet have a caster level.
Let me know what you think, I'd like to rule this into the arena.
I don't have a strong opinion either way on this issue. I'm generally inclined to lean towards your interpretation.
Though ill admit that I've generally seen it played the opposite way. Where Rangers and Paladins have to wait until 4th to use scrolls.
I don't have a particularly strong opinion either although like Eben said Ive generally seen it played the opposite.
Liane is ready for level 4.
Concerning the paladin issue, I've checked it for building a character for the mock-up arena. My reading of the rules says the opposite. It is clearly stated that before level 4, paladin and cleric have no caster level and not that they have a zero caster level. Even with a high wisdom or charisma bonus, they do not have bonus spells before level 4 and cannot cast them.
For me the tern no caster level clearly means for me that they cannot use a scroll and do not have a spell list until that level.
I believe it has been mostly ruled no in the past, but I'm not sure that it should be. Obviously the Paladin doesn't have a caster level until 4th, and this is not the same as caster level zero. The UMD example seems to give some amount of precedence for rolling a caster level check w/o a caster level, however, and the fact that the spell list is described as the "class spell list" (as well as the fact that a 1st level Wizard can cast 9th level spells from a scroll) makes me think that the potential for casting is there even if the "spellcaster" doesn't have true magical ability yet.
To come back on the scroll issue, I remembered having found an official answer on the message boards, where it says you cannot use scrolls as a ranger or paladin below level 4. It is from Joshua Frost and for Pathfinder society.Here is the link
Yah, the more i thought about this lat night, the more I'm left feeling Liane's interpretation is right. Citing a portion of the UMD text (which is one big skill set meant to allow non-casters access to spells via items) doesn't seem like a convincing way to get around the fact that those two classes aren't spell casters until 4th level.
I'm gonna reverse my earlier opinion. I'm not convinced they should be able to do it based on what I've seen.
Another link on the subject, this time from Jason Bulmahn. This is actually the post I had found a few weeks before and clearly states the case for Pathfinder.
Another link on the subject, this time from Jason Bulmahn. This is actually the post I had found a few weeks before and clearly states the case for Pathfinder.
Well that seems pretty clear. I think that is the most emphatic I've ever seen a Jason response be lol.
If we set a specific day of the week to announce the next round of randomization matches, I would suggest Friday. It seems like people tend to be a bit more lax on posting over the weekend, I know I can be since the weekends can be rather busy. This in turn gives everyone ample amount of time to check in and report to their respective arena pit by Monday and just about a full work week to sort out who the winner is.
That sounds like a good idea to me. Seconded.
I was aware of the response from Pathfinder devs/rulings, but I felt that they had dumb reasons for their rulings considering that in D&D 3.5 it was doable and the scroll rules themselves did not change from 3.5 to Pathfinder, only the opinion of the guys in charge.
That said, I am fine disallowing the scrolls, it makes a certain amount of sense that Paladins/Rangers just don't have the ability to channel any magic until a bit later on in their careers. I think it is certainly more balanced that way, so we'll just rule along with the Pathfinder devs.
I third the Friday idea, and should have character done today, though now that the scroll question is resolved I'm unsure who I want to throw in...
Should I go glass cannon or tank?
Glass tank?
I'm just going with an entertaining character to start with, he's about done, would you like me to send him to ye Eben?
I'd be happy to check him.
So are we planning on starting up the next round tomorrow then?
I'm guessing so. I just got Jevhova's (Master of the Pits) gladiator and reviewed it last night.
So, other than that, I think all we're waiting on is the randomization. :)
Well I know I wouldn't complain if we started a day early this week. I'm ready to see if I can get Gnasher his third consecutive win.
I wouldn't either. Unfortunately, everyone is dependent on mine and Arbiters schedules (and mbauers when he's available to arbitrate matches).
My vote is for going today, I'll check out those two you mentioned Eben.
Ready to go.
Then I shall eagerly await the match postings.
Not to be that guy, but I was skipped in the last randomization, so shouldn't I be automatically in this one?
Woops! I swapped you out for Rumple in pit 2. My mistake. Is Shigeharu in the running? I was basing the ready people off of Eben's list.
No worries, and thanks
I still need to upgrade Shigeharu to level 5. I can hopefully do that today.
Put Rumple up against Riit, if you want. :)
Ok, so I just saw that Rumple is Jehova's guy. I didn't want to bump you out of your first match. Sorry about that. If you do face Ritti I can arbitrate you guys, if you want.