Me for not being eaten by the magical talking wolves. I'm funny that way.
Whoops. I forgot to add a "if you stay with the excise" spoiler. I'll get that up this afternoon/evening when I'm back.
Slightly off-topic, but I've now bought and read Spheres of Power. Impressive. Most impressive. If I could retcon it into the existing games I'm running, I would - I think it solves almost all the problems with the Vancian system (including the Linear Warrior Quadratic Wizard) and is a serious achievement.
My only concern is with invisibility, which for the cost of 2 talents (Illusion sphere, Invisibility) effectively gives you Greater Invisibility (i.e. stay invisible while attacking) available from 1st level. This is compounded by there not being many spheres* (Light, Divination) which allow you to detect invisible things - as CR 4 monsters, pixies are potentially spelled "TPK"...
Any thoughts?
I think that is part of the whole linear thing.
Some of the good (say) 3rd level spells are now available at 1st level spells. Imix, for example, has Greater Magic Weapon/Shield of Faith. But it cost him a lot of "Feats" to get it, and it doesn't really get much better.
I'm not sure about it. For me part of the charm of Pathfinder is the higgeldy-piggeldy nature of the spells. I like sphere based systems, but I think the total effects are a bit limited. On the other hand, I know people feel casters are too powerful, so I am interested to see how the sytem copes with that.
Magic has always been powerful in the right situation. The reason magic users excel so well in Pathfinder is because the almost limitless number of potential ways to be versatile. The sphere system seems to approach on limiting the versatility but the right spell in the right situation continues to be powerful.
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<Scratches "Pixie Dungeon" from the list>
I'll have to look at invisibility a bit closer.
It is early yet, but I'm liking SoP. I'd like to see the numbers crunched, but while the effects are certainly limited power-wise*, I think a lot of them are very versatile. At will illusions, divinations, blasting, etc., are pretty neat.
I'd like to see someone do a really in-depth analysis of how the systems stack up. But, here's a couple of classes (not taking into account sphere base classes):
A bard at 20th level knows 40 spells, but many of them are obsoleted by that time. A sphere bard at 20th level knows 17 spheres/talents, and I suspect that few, perhaps none, are obsoleted by that time, as the powers and DC scale with level. And you can add more talents/spheres with feats. It occurs to me as I type this that 6-casters can actually be dedicated casters with the sphere system, which is pretty cool.
Also, a lot of spheres have 2+ uses for their base talents, so depending on choices it isn't unreasonable to think that a bard could have 20+ usable talents by 20th level. That scales pretty well, I suspect, with a core bard.
Now, let's look at a wizard:
A wizard gets 36 spells per day at 20th level, or 45 if s/he specializes (+ Int mod). How many of those spells, especially the early levels, are going to be used? Not too many, I suspect.
A sphere wizard (or better yet, the build-a-caster incanter class) gets 32 spheres/talents at 20th level, and remember that many of those spheres have multiple base powers. I suspect that taking into account repetitious spells prepared or unused low-level spell slots throughout the adventuring day, the sphere wizard compares favorably to the Vancian, and is even perhaps more versatile, if less powerful.
So, while less powerful*, I think SoP characters are probably more versatile than their Vancian counterparts.
Spell points scale pretty well with spells per day. A bard probably has about 28 spell points at 20th level, a wizard around 30-32. A Vancian Bard: 30 spd, a Vancian specialist wizard: 58 or so. But again, a lot of those bard and wizard spell slots are going to be unused, and the sphere caster gets plenty of at-will abilities that are better than cantrips.
Now, let's look at what I really/also/especially adore about this system:
- Casting traditions: the ability to make totally new casting traditions beyond the arcane/divine (and now psychic) is very appealing to me. I love Imix's Suriname tradition. It is unique, it is cool, and it couldn't be done with the Vancian arcane/divine split we see in PF. I'd pay good money for a book that just expanded on this idea.
The war drummer you guys fought was a skald with the war sphere, and a different casting tradition than bards or skalds (similar, but different). I loved the way he affected the fight, with a class ability and a couple of talents, he made slightly tougher than normal warriors into excellent damage dealers. And I didn't even get all of his talents going by the time you guys got to him and he had to start fighting himself.
- Theming: I can make a shadowcaster, a non-druid shifter, or a telekinetic, or a guy who possesses the word of god, or any other countless ideas that couldn't be done before without having to be really high level and possessing plenty of non-thematic spells or possessing plenty of thematic but useless spells, or not being able to follow my theme at all at low levels. This is amazing. 50 pages of text opens up possibilities that couldn't be pulled off at all or could be pulled off extremely sub-optimally up to now.
- Modularity: want those world-shaking powers that high-level wizards get? Add in advanced talents. Want to add spells, a la Vancian style? Put SoP in with the Vancian system, or add spellcrafting and/or rituals. Want one-off magical effects for narrative reasons? Incantations and maybe rituals should do the trick. Want magic themed around certain things (subtle magic or elemental magic, etc.)? Limit spheres. I suspect you can run most any type of game with SoP, and that's pretty cool.
- Also, the hedge-witch. It is just a cool class.
*And to me, this isn't a bad thing either. You can probably build a strong tier 2 player still with SoP, and I imagine they're tier 4 at worst. Tier 3-5 is the sweet spot in my opinion, for ease of encounter design, fun builds, and interesting and still useful characters. I'd be more willing to play or GM high-level games if the power curve for casters was more inline with martials. And don't forget that the toolkit nature of SoP allows for advanced talents (7th level + spells, basically) to be put into the game, so that lovely martial-caster imbalance can be restored.
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly on the linear progression. They've bumped up casters a bit in the early levels, lowered them a bit at the end (at 20th level enhancement wizard with all the specs could be granting maybe a +7 to +8 weapon with 3 spell points. It could do about 10d6 in an area. Compare this with Clone, Wish, Mind Blank or even just Intensified Quickened Maximized Empowered Fireball.
I think the flexibility will get better as new 'splats' come out (2 already), but the flexibility will be on a character to character level, not all in the same spell list.
At the moment Invisibility is cheap to get (1 spell slot) and has a 'sweet spot', after which most enemies have the counter. In SoP, it costs a fair bit to get (1 talent is a serious investment, comparable to ALL the spell slots of that level), but is unlikely to be countered.
SoP seems more like Tolkienesque magic to me. Gandalf throws bolts of light, and knows a lot... he doesn't just teleport the party to mount doom.
SoP seems more like Tolkienesque magic to me. Gandalf throws bolts of light, and knows a lot... he doesn't just teleport the party to mount doom.
That is exactly what I was thinking, especially when I read the details of the "Close (Word)" Talent from the Fate sphere - reading the description, I was suddenly transported back to Moria, and Gandalf's attempt to seal the door against the balrog (clearly, he failed his MSB check)...
Oh and GM, I agree entirely with what you have written. My only nitpick is the Invisibility talent, and then only because the only countermeasures are in spheres that not everyone will necessarily take.. I might consider some sort of rule that invisibility ends when you attack, and then create an Advanced Talent (Illusion) that lets you stay invisible while attacking.
But in 250-odd pages, that's my only real criticism; they've done a FANTASTIC job. Like I said, if I could retcon it into my existing games, I would. My real hope is that Paizo adopts/licences it for Pathfinder 2.0... but that's probably a topic for a completely different thread.
Oh, and Cantrips as a feat: yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Why has nobody thought of this before?!
I'm hosting this year, so I'll be offline for the next few days. See you all on the other side.
Merry Christmas, one and all.
Happy holidays, everyone! I'll get a post up tonight and well pick up on Sunday. I'm busy all day tomorrow and then driving all day the day after that.
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas all!
You caught me while I was editing BP... I always have extra ideas to throw in after a I post. I didn't add much really, just a little voice in the back of Istiel's head that tells her not to do really stupid things out of anger.
Yep, we're crossposting - check my post for an edit - I'm going to work you into the other storyline going on.
Good stuff, Istiel!
Imix's apprentices, Hamfatten's apprentices, Mother Hunger, the Ostens, the Meadsthons, the Saches, Meg, and Kiko are added to the NPC section of the wiki.
Oios' tale of Hainu, the fable of the creation of language, added to religion section.
Towering Woods, Tolver's Crossing, added to the geography section.
Istiel's info on monks added to the monastic life section.
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays. Happy New Year!
Hmmm - depending on what Issy is wearing, Imix might animate her clothes.
I didn't roll intimidate because he's not trying to scare her into compliance - he thinks he is helping, and is actually trying to be 'nice'. Not sure about diplomacy either. Please roll for me if needed.
Happy for Rigel to come in on this as well - figure there'd be a discussion in private later.
Great work with Alglin! I shuddered at the scene... but figure it is for talking about later now...
Private?! Imix is about to get publicly b!tch-slapped... working on the post now!
Xmas over, everyone survived.
EDIT: And done. Not sure about the slap, on second thought: Rigel's seriously not into violence; but on the other hand, Imix pushed her "beserk button" in picking on Iseult, so I'm leaving it as-is.
I've added a bit in my in-game post to the law/lore on Suriname, which I think should probably be canon: in-game to prevent them becoming absolute monsters; and OOC to preserve balance between the PCs - you can't have one PC who's simply untouchable. Plus, THERE'S your incentive to find your Purpose, Imix! :-)
I'll be busy until tomorrow evening, fyi.
Oios actually wanted to go into the forest and try and get a few minutes with the body. Was too busy to post and things moved on. Don't want to retroactively try something that could get the party attacked by wolves though. Can I still make the attempt.
Oios actually wanted to go into the forest and try and get a few minutes with the body. Was too busy to post and things moved on. Don't want to retroactively try something that could get the party attacked by wolves though. Can I still make the attempt?
EDIT: And done. Not sure about the slap, on second thought: Rigel's seriously not into violence; but on the other hand, Imix pushed her "beserk button" in picking on Iseult, so I'm leaving it as-is.
Actually, I think it will work perfectly for getting the conflict over with.
I've added a bit in my in-game post to the law/lore on Suriname, which I think should probably be canon: in-game to prevent them becoming absolute monsters; and OOC to preserve balance between the PCs - you can't have one PC who's simply untouchable. Plus, THERE'S your incentive to find your Purpose, Imix! :-)
Absolutely! I wouldn't make a PC who handed out command like this if it had any actual power behind it!
I figure the were-crocodile psychology as written would make for the worst leader ever. They're going to get corrupted, and then they're going to need to be put down. I'd sort of assumed the secret of the 'transformation magic' was a sabotaged permanent transformation that essentially killed the Suriname.I thought I had been pretty explicit about Imix always finding out who the leader is - I'm assuming in most situations it will be Oios. At the moment I think it is Tex, then Utzi.
Oios actually wanted to go into the forest and try and get a few minutes with the body. Was too busy to post and things moved on. Don't want to retroactively try something that could get the party attacked by wolves though. Can I still make the attempt?
Sure thing, Oios. You could easily beg off and catch up with the caravan later* - it moves slowly. I don't think it would mess the continuity up too much if you run off*, though both Rigel and Istiel have pretty adamantly stated they're not interested in going back to talk with the wolves.
We drove 1000 miles today, and I'm a bit scattered at the moment. I'll get a post in tomorrow at the Way Point, and we can work backwards regarding the wolves*
* Unless Mother Hunger eats you ;)
Hmm - I think Imix is shaken. Push it and he'll back down.
scaleheart culture respects nothing so much as the ability to demonstrate power over others, most often physically but also through cunning and magic... Many have a hard time reading the emotions of others and expressing their own emotions in a way others can understand
Not just trying to be a pain. :/
I like Drazen, he has his priorities straight!
Sorry if I wasn't clear on this - Piney Bluff is to the northwest of Shadeholme, in the general direction of where the Garrison-Captain, the Master of Coywolves, and 19 other soldiers went to aid the citizens of Harper's Pond after they were raided by the Mountain Men on Gozhran 1.
The Excise is roughly travelling north-northeast away from Shadeholme, to Piney Bluff is more or less directly to the west, and can be reached in about 1 day from a road a little to the north of Tolver's Crossing, where you are now located.
Roughly, Piney Bluff, Shadeholme and Tolver's Crossing form an isoceles triangle (ignore the dots (.), they're only there as placeholders):
west<------------------------------->east
Piney Bluff <---------road--------------->
.................................................................Tolver's Crossing
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
............................Shadeholme
Crap. Right, I'll edit my post (think I'm still in time)
EDIT: I was, just! Post edited.
And I see the GM's new post. Curiouser and curiouser...
That does not bode well for the soldiers that went to help Harper's Pond... I smell subterfuge. But why?
That does not bode well for the soldiers that went to help Harper's Pond... I smell subterfuge. But why?.
Between the woods and the way point because we don't have enough scenes:
Ha!
Keep 'em spoilered, and we'll move forward with the present.
Have you all said and done all you want to say at the Way Point? How about the folk at the Excise?
If so, I'll move us on to Gozhran 4.
Good here!
Rough rough day at work. Will try to get a post in in the two timelines Oios is in.
No worries, Oios, take your time!
Also, I will be going on a trip for the next four days. I'll have my laptop with me, but don't expect any consistency.
Have fun, Istiel!
Imix is shutting up and letting Oios take the lead on this.
I'll get us moving on soon. If anyone want's to post anything about the WP, spoiler it.
Sorry Imix, missed your spoiler - working on it now.
Busier than expected here. Please DMPC as needed. Curious about the torchlight...
Back, and tired...
Was messing with the downtime/crafting rules.
Hmm, so an apprentice costs 520gp. 5 are 2600gp.
If Imix puts in 5sp of work every day, and works weekdays only , he'd get his first apprentice at day 1456, and the last at (ignoring compound payoffs) day 7280. Basically 4 years each.
Obviously there'd be ways to speed that up.
Incidentally, in case there's any confusion: Imix is completely sincere. He likes putting people down, likes fighting, and he believes in the empire completely.
Sick. Try and post tomorrow. Sorry.
Bot as required.
Feel better soon Rigel. D:
Was messing with the downtime/crafting rules.
Hmm, so an apprentice costs 520gp. 5 are 2600gp.
If Imix puts in 5sp of work every day, and works weekdays only , he'd get his first apprentice at day 1456, and the last at (ignoring compound payoffs) day 7280. Basically 4 years each.
Obviously there'd be ways to speed that up.
I'll reacquaint myself with the downtime rules soon, but that is taking into account an average roll of 15 and making the capital, and then turning that capital into a team?
We'll look at ways to speed things up. In the GP game where we used downtime, the time to build buildings was pretty long as is, without taking into account the time to earn the capital.
One thing you all will be getting at some point is capital as treasure, so that will help out.
Incidentally, in case there's any confusion: Imix is completely sincere. He likes putting people down, likes fighting, and he believes in the empire completely.
I always take Imix seriously.
Sick. Try and post tomorrow. Sorry.Bot as required.
Hope you're on your feet soon, DR.
Can I assume Rigel will let Oios know what she found out? That way Oios can do his dramatic reveal when they're on the road.
Since I'm botting her right now, the answer is an unequivocal YES!
Sorry if that is out of character, Rigel.
tomorrow evening will find you all in Shadeholme, and as some of the most devout people on the caravan, they can't wait to see Ayida Wedu's living body.
Emphasis mine. Did you mean Three Corners, not Shadeholme?
Dun Dun DUUUUNNNN!!!!
You've all been traveling around in a big circle. There is no Cornucopia, only the Matrix, which is currently glitching.
The text is supposed to read,
"Tomorrow evening will find you all in Cornucopia..."
Three Corners is a city square in Cornucopia, a legal no-man's land where three neighborhoods meet, though none of the 'hoods have ever had legal jurisdiction over the square itself. The orphanage is off one side of the square. Rare in such a tightly controlled community, the strange legal status of Three Corners allows for artistic freedom, religious heresies, and crime to flourish within the square. It is also a holy spot to Ghede, and as such that status with the no-man's legal status of the square means that the activities there have largely been overlooked by the king in the past.
I'll update the gameplay thread appropriately. You all can make your checks here or there. Also, knowledge history DC 15 would do the trick.