The Bogshark Fiasco

Game Master Lord Grey

To be fair, I know that you're lying but I don't necessarily know about what. I could still believe you hooked up, it could just be with an ugly bar skag lol

Hey guys!

So I wanted to start a discussion here. There are some things going on in the campaign right now that I wanted to check to make sure everyone is comfortable with things that are happening right now.

There are some story elements going on that make for a cool story, but that might be less enjoyable to PLAY through.

Namely the drama with the sword (and fate/ownership-thereof), and with the party tension caused by Mornak's death.

Now, I get that everything that has happened so far makes a lot of in-character sense. I don't want it to turn into ooc-disenjoyment, though. Trissae said that if she keeps getting treated poorly, then her actions would be to strike out on her own. While the player of Trissae might be totally satisfied with this as a story plot point, it might start leading towards unsatisfying-playing.

For example: If Triss leaves I need to do one of two things, begin to solo her apart from the others for a while, or to just have triss "set-out" of the narrative for a while, and have Trissae's player instead take control of a new character.

Or maybe Grellik will prefer that he'd stick with Trissae instead of Adrien, so now Adrien is alone and the decision on how to handle to split scenes changes again.

Do we want to keep the party in one big group (for the most part)? I would. What do the players want, and what is the best way to steer the campaign's story to be what we want to play?

I've completely missed where Trissae said she'd leave on her own, when did that happen?

Would prefer to keep the party together.

And it's still just as enjoyable as its ever been for me, I haven't noticed any change that would worry me.

Trissae the character is feeling abused, she hasn't said anything and instead has focused on being positive. However, lots of activities have wounded her lately on a very personal level that are beginning to reach her emotional breaking point.

Like Grey said I(the player) am fine with it, its a dramatic story and some characters don't necessarily have the fortitude to survive it. I like Triss a lot, but I don't want her to be a roadblock to progress (or annoy the other players). I didn't want to OOC it initially because I didn't want it affecting anybody else's decision making (feeling bad, or held hostage). Once again, and I can't stress it enough, I'm having a great time playing with you guys.

So that being said I am more than happy to work with whatever the group wants/thinks: Be it to sideline Triss, roll up another character, or whatever other ideas come up.

First off, Trissae has never annoyed me as a player. She's always been an interesting character and you play her super well.

I said I'd rather keep the group together and I think popping in with a new character would hurt the story, but I don't want you to play Trissae as something she's not. If she's near her emotional breaking point, there's lots of things that could happen besides her leaving the group, but if you have to choose between meta-keeping-the-game-fun and earnestly roleplaying your character, I'd say roleplay the character and we'll figure out a way to make it work.

I just did some reading to make sure I'm not over reading what I think Triss would do, but after reviewing some 30+ pages it's pretty much come to her likely leaving (without some kind of intervention) which is why its good we're talking it out now.

arg, I was busy saturday.... and nobody showed up sunday x_X

I definitely want the players together, aside from short asides, and such, and I'm not looking to have anyone switch out characters(and this is hard time for Grey to work anyone in to boot), though I understand if you feel you need to (I had to swap a character I really enjoyed in a campaign because he just didn't mesh that well with them), but if you feel some kind of intervention would stop her from setting out on her own, then Grellik can definitely try that, once he keys into her wanting to go :D

To expand on the above, with a group this small, there are already few enough PCs, if we permanently or long term split them up, well, that makes a 1PC group and a 2PC group. Those are tiny groups, and though there are plenty of NPCs around, it really minimizes those in a protagonist role.

I'm open to suggestions; it's pretty clear the consensus is to try to keep the party together, but I'm not sure exactly what besides physically restraining Triss is going to work necessarily to keep her.

I did go through and make note of the different times, with small notes, of the events that have lead up to where she's at. Just in case it would help I can share those and the logic going on inside Triss's head.

I'm sorta in the same boat as Adrien on this in that I want to keep playing her, but I don't think I could play her disingenuously to her personality just for the sake of keeping her in the party.

As for the tag-out I don't know, that'd mostly be in Grey's court. I have an idea/suggestion but I think I'd be more comfortable having him call the shots if that's what happened.

So some points I have on this matter beyond what I've already stated.

1. Trissae, remember to keep character dissatisfaction posted in writing, and roleplay being upset via omission. This means other characters would have the capability of insighting her moods and roleplay appropriately. I'm not saying that you haven't been doing this (I haven't gone back and checked), but in general, and going forward, these are good practices to stick to.

2. The group has had a pretty big blow, which understandably makes them upset. Most of the tension has occurred because of this blow, and though a lot of it has been pretty extreme, this has still occurred only over the span of a few hours.

Roleplaying it over MONTHS can certainly skew our perspective, but I'd highly recommend everyone to keep the time frame in mind, and consider what your characters would do in a situation that has been dark for only the morning. Like Adrien, maybe all that is needed to justify a character's moods is to go out and spend some time away for a short bit before coming back.

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I want the bogshark fiasco to be about the bogsharks. I would rather not tag-in anyone (although I have ideas that could make this work) because I think this story should be about you. Any ideas on how to in-character keep the group together would be appreciated. Would a heartfelt apology be enough? Would a temper tantrum to work through bad blood be good? Do I need to plot device Ozz back or have some other something occur to happen between now and your next IC-move to keep things in a place where we want them without compromising character personalities? I'm open to suggestions.

I talked with Adrien at work about one that I like, and I'll let him pitch it to see what you guys think.

When I get home I'll go ahead and post up triss's stuff and get input.

I get that the recent stuff has been the heaviest but the build up has been going on since page 7 lol

I had planned to propose it in-character, but wanted to think on it a bit more and ping it off Sheldon. It's understandable that a group of bandits cut off from their Boss would be chaotic, disorganized, and arguing heatedly. Since Cavell errs on the side of callous brutality, and Trissae errs on the side of kindheartedness, that puts Grellik in the middle, as a sort of tie-breaking vote. He's also our highest intelligence character. So how about electing him as interim leader?

I thought I had been pretty good at illustrating the discontent Triss had been feeling, but judging by the fact both you and Adrien have responded in a way that you feel sorta blind-sided I guess I have not. I tend to forget that you guys don't live with her nagging you in your head XD

I'll try to organize this in a way that it's not a text-wall headache for you guys to read. Just a reminder too that this is all from Triss's perspective, and does not represent the thoughts or feelings of the author or anything remotely objective XD

Page 7

To give a little context to all of this remember that Trissae is 60 years old, a little over half the age which is considered adulthood for an elf. however a little over a decade ago she had to flee her home and begin to relearn everything she knows in this big scary 'light world' so what? she's got the mind of a 16-19 year old? She's also drow so... there's that.
This is all pretty heavy stuff for a kid that age to take in, let alone have her family turn on her (in her perspective) for a second time.

This is the thing I'm having a hard time reconciling with her now.

Maybe the temper tantrum might work. One interesting thing I've found playing is when I sit down to write, I only participate in a part of it; Triss does a lot of decision making for herself one example is:

So who knows. My biggest caveat is that now that this is all being talked about it'll be hard not to affect the RP because of what we know.
I didn't intend on being the roadblock to progress and in trying to avoid it I'VE BECOME THE ROADBLOCK TO PROGRESS! :: vaporizes in a black hole ::

my biggest caveat is that now that this is all being talked about it'll be hard not to affect the RP because of what we know.

At this point, I WANT the RP to be affected by this conversation. This is the whole point of having it, since without a meta-affect on the gameplay, we're going to begin to play in a campaign we don't want to be in as much.

I don't see Ozz's interaction with Trissae being a "turn against her" moment, unless any criticism of her plans' details counts as such (she is young).

As for Adrien almost dying, that's his own dumb damn fault and he knows it. ;) Stubborn cuss. You've got fully healed half-orc meat trying to distract the owlbear. Fall back!

I don't see Ozz's interaction with Trissae being a "turn against her" moment, unless any criticism of her plans' details counts as such

of course you don't see it! you're not a hormonal teenage girl! nah it's one of those issues that was a sort of non-issue that grew into an issue because it shares a theme with the main problem (nobody trusts Triss).

Maybe it's my fault for not making ozzs position clear, but the specific detail he was rebelling against was like if someone asked triss to murder a baby, or grell to forsake his master, or adrien to go celibate.

He's been hunted by men and elves all his life to the point where he has turned against the very idea of civilization. He felt that dying in man's heraldry would somehow color his spirit in the afterlife.

nah, you gotta remember it's Triss's POV. A cultural or personal undertone that the others can't understand (like Grellik's misunderstanding of why Triss was so upset about being "dressed like a drow whore" when Mornak hung), which by the way is a nice touch for Ozz.

I didn't post this though to bash on anybody, it was more to describe the events that have lead to Triss's distress. A lot of it is misunderstanding cobbled together with genuine bad feelings, which caused her to spiral pretty hard.

one of these days I'll figure out how to link stuff. lol

Also, Adrien - I think that's a good idea. We could definitely use a person to focus the group. I've been playing DH so long I'd forgotten about group leaders (used to inquisitor npcs barking the orders)

Alright, I think I'm going to step in here as the voice of RP godliness.

We've all agreed that we would prefer to stay in a single group (generally speaking). I am not prepared to take anyone out of the story in lieu of another character (sharks included) just now, especially not while the player is still interested in playing that character.

We haven't been playing as a group for anywhere near the length of time your characters have been in a group and I think it is easy to forget that detail. Adrien is a rude bastard who can be casually insulting. Trissae is a hyper-sensative teenage girl/drow. Grellik is strangely reverent toward some old, dead dude. Ozz hates civilization passionately, and views their codes and devices as almost profane. Your actions for your characters make sense being who they are, but not so much when you consider that Adrien and Trissae (and Ozz and Giant and Feng and Grellik and Caira) have all been the ways they are around EACH OTHER for YEARS. You all have had time to know what each other are about.

In the unplayed backgrounds of your characters I can see Adrien getting overly casual with his insults toward Ozz or Grimgar at some point and getting unceremoniously punched in the teeth for it. Lesson learned.

I can also see Trissae becoming moody and overly sensitive at some perceived slight toward her, and then having Feng or Giant chiding her for acting like a spoiled child. Lesson learned.

In your years together (3 for Adrien, 5 I think for Grellik, and even longer, 10 I think, for Trissae) you would have all had ample opportunities to have had your abrasive, anti-social behaviors smoothed down with your fellow sharks. So much so that a few days in a bad situation shouldn't be able to break it. Rub the wrong way? Certainly. Emotional outbursts, of course! But to outright fail to work together anymore...?

I say no. And I think to go forward we need to all agree on that no. A few bad days aren't going to break The Bogsharks!

If you feel yourself about to roleplay your character in a way that would be disruptive to our agreed-upon desire to play in one group, I want you to write a flashback of a background interaction with another shark (preferably with those already named, and NOT in any detail with the boss. I have plans for the boss that I'm not letting the canon change before we get to him, hands off!) that you can reflect upon and give your character the emotional space needed to come to terms with the bad and be able to move forward as a group.

THIS IS YOUR GODS LAW!

Grellik, the 'you being elected as the temporary leader' thing is an interesting idea. If you would be interested in playing that, I recommend this happens in-character. Adrien can pull the trigger on that idea (as it was his to begin with) if you accept.

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FINALLY~! One last thing.

Your characters can get pissed at each other, but don't roleplay within your own heads. If your character was offended by something, it needs to go in your post. If your character is trying to hide the effect it had on them, roll a CHA(deception) check and put it in a spoiler. I don't want to see any future points get brought up that refer to situations where your character has been upset by something without any text toward that upset existing in the post. Some things can be assumed, especially with NPCs (I don't need to know that a person stabbing you was met with shock and anger), but with other PCs I require it to be out of your heads and on paper.

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I hope this is fair.

So, I ask you all...

WILL A FEW BAD DAYS BREAK THE BOGSHARKS?!

NO!!

And I totally would have punched that smug f$*@ing human in the teeth!

Fair assertions, but it's not fair to under sell that the event that have occurred are by far the worst that have happened to the sharks, and there's no one there to punch adrien in the teeth or to chide triss.

Like I said before, since it seems directed at me, I thought I was pretty clear in illustrating triss's dissatisfaction. It wasn't some plot or scheme or intentional to be vague about it.

Any who let me know when I should post ic again.

I think it's important too that we work through it in-character without resorting the finality of a character splitting off. Getting all this sorted out OOC was a good idea, but we need to make this play out in-character next.

A lot has happened in a very short amount of time in-game. Our characters have all been under way more stress than usual. Play your characters as you wrote them by all means. Cavell will be Cavell, Trissae will be Trissae, but like Grey suggested, there are many different ways Trissae might express her emotional breaking point, and leaving the group is just one. Lots of reasons that she might feel bound to them and that splitting off isn't an option even though she wants to.

So what would Trissae do if she realized she couldn't leave the group? What happens when she breaks? I think the three of us can RP that out and get past this.

Also, on Grey's note about deception/insight checks in spoilers, I think it's a fun tool that play-by-post gives us. For example, when Cavell propositioned Trissae and I included a bluff check, the spoiler-ed part was "Oh, he's f%%~ing serious." Basically, he was giving a little smirk and body language as if he might be joking, in order to guard his pride if he gets rejected. Or if you prefer, you could just put your character's inner-monologue in italics. IE:

"Well Cavell, that's a fantastic plan, but I think a less direct approach would be better."

Gods Cavell's an idiot...

That way we could play off each other a bit easier. Maybe I then say:

Can I make an Insight check to see if Grellik is looking at me condescendingly?

Insight: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (11) + 2 = 13

etc.

ALSO

Like Mornak's neck, we shall not break!

Trissae, I'm trying to be clear about my intentions for the future to prevent confusion, and am not interested in the actual facts of the past (I don't have the time or energy to comb through your list in the back-posts to see how things actually played out), nor am I claiming that you HAVE been unclear. It appears as though there is confusion, so i require what I said in the interests of eliminating that confusion going forward. I don't at all think you were trying to be a deceptive player, and didn't mean to imply as much. I simply think this is a good thing to keep in mind for good PbP roleplay.

Fair assertions, but it's not fair to under sell that the event that have occurred are by far the worst that have happened to the sharks, and there's no one there to punch adrien in the teeth or to chide triss.

Therefor, you think the sharks should fall apart? I thought we didn't want that.

As Adrien said, in what I'm guessing was a ninja-post situation, "A lot has happened in a very short amount of time in-game. Our characters have all been under way more stress than usual. Play your characters as you wrote them by all means. Cavell will be Cavell, Trissae will be Trissae, but like Grey suggested, there are many different ways Trissae might express her emotional breaking point, and leaving the group is just one."

If you don't wish for the group to split, then don't play your character so the group has to split. I'm giving you all hopefully decent ideas to help you roleplay your character AS your character, and still not lead to a conclusion that none of us wants.

My point about writing the backstory you need is that you don't necessarily NEED someone to punch you in the mouth anymore, or to chide you. Trissae cannot be ignorant that she can be overly sensitive to her own issues while ignoring/minimizing the issues of others (none of you can be ignorant about most of your flaws); working in a close gang with literal bandits in uncomfortable situations makes that hard to believe.

Consider that your characters have all gained some amount of introspection, and can come to the conclusion that they are behaving irrationally BEFORE breaking up the group. As I said, and Adrien summarized well, there are many different ways you ALL can express your emotions. I ask that everyone exhausts all alternatives before choosing the ways that leads us down a path in the story we've agreed that we'd prefer not to play.

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So long as these terms are agreed to, you may resume IC posting. If you disagree with these terms, please explain why.

Edit: Going back over some recent posts, I might have missed a very important detail (My bad. I'm doing tons of OT right now and my attention is limited). Trissae, are you actually interested in playing a story where Trissae leaves the sharks? You think that this is more satisfying of an outcome than roleplaying her exasperation in a less severe way? I'm not in your head enough to understand why this is the nearly-unavoidable outcome for Trissae here, and I'm confused why this solution seems to her to be the best plan.

If your enjoyment as a player would be better served to replace her with a character not at the edge of falling out with her years-long companions, I'm sure we could work something out, I just hadn't grasped until this very moment just how unavoidable/satisfying for you this outcome might be.

Noo,sorry posting from work on my phone, it's for the birds.

I'll explain better later. That last thing came out more defensive than you deserve, I apologize.

The only reason I brought anything up was I saw adrien's posts about his possible leaving and when I felt a similar twinge with triss I wanted to make sure you knew what was up. I know I get really anxious when I'm dming and my players start considering leaving the group.

I was really just trying to avoid being the onji of this campaign (another thing I sorta bumbled into)

Also sorry adrien/ grell this wasn't to bog down stuff. I didn't mean to be- that guy- at the table

next time we meet in person, please don't accidentally call me Triss XD that's going to be hard to explain ha ha.

Nah, I'm sort of a bumbling goof. I think I got caught up in listening to Triss's gripes but applying my bias to them.

One thing very different between her and I is that I don't have any friends like Cavell (I don't put up with his kind in my friend packs) but you raise a really good point: Triss does. And I see this stuff all the time and it drives me bonkers, sweet girl.... kinda douchie dude. But clearly she sees something in him I don't.
Once I was looking at all the factors I was looking at them from my point of view and applying my logic (the list of fancy named themes) I was even looking at Triss's point of view from mine so it just exacerbated things.

As I was saying before really I was just trying to warn you that it was on Triss's mind; because as a DM I get really anxious when I hear about that stuff (it's easy to distract a game with it XD) and wanted to at least have you informed in case that's where things went.
I didn't want it to happen, but in the same way I wasn't really going to be upset if it did... that's just how the story rolled. I was more concerned with the consternation you'd have putting up as a Dungeon master with all of it.

all the other junk was mostly me trying to convey that: Triss was upset and this is why. But that more seems to have detracted from my intent x_X

Thanks though for remaining civil and helpful and I think I know how to start things off once Grellik finally gets a chance to chime in.

(>Z_Z)> zombie kirby

Sorry for my lack of posting. I can't blame it on OT, but I've been pretty beat after work lately (good thing I'm on vacation for the next week and a half ;P), and when I'm tired my mind is the first thing to go. I was going through all the points and figuring out what I thought of them and what I wanted to say, but Grey's rather astute post makes it kind of unnecessary. I totally agree on keeping things into perspective and remembering that none of this is new behavior for us, even if it is more intense than in the past due to stress, with including more internal monologue, as well as specifically calling out when one is being deceptive, as its hard to infer in print, and making more use of relevant character flashbacks.

The only thing I do want to address is the scene with the Bane cultists, as I think the timeline of that event got jumbled. Adrian overheard them talking and indicated to us that they sought to kill the inhabitants, which would be us. So Grellik and Adrian were going up to deal with a threat. Grellik also paused, specifically ordering the man to explain himself, and once it was clear that they didn't mean to fight us. So the situation wasn't Grellik and Adrian are going to murder them until they turn out to be followers of Bane, its, they were going to kill us (we thought), and when the situation started to diffuse, we worked out terms. We didn't even find out they were Bane cultists until after Adrian had stood down.

But in any case, if Trissae feels like its the way it was described in the post, then she does, I just wanted to make sure it was clear for the players at least.

AS far as Grellik being leader, he might or might not agree to it, depending on the arguments used. He does not feel up to the task, but if we want to do that as a group, I can steer him in that direction, and I'm confident we can make it happen. As far as me wanting to be the group leader? I don't want the players feel like their decisions are shackled by me, but if that's not a problem, and it seems to make sense with the story, I am ok with it.

Naw as a player I'm fine with absolutely anything that happens IC between us as long as it's true to our characters.

I think Triss can be a little brash, take things out of context. Mixed with her genuine bad feelings it muddies up stuff. I'm glad you guys helped out and gave me some interesting perspective on everything.

Cheers m8, glad to keep trissae around :D

Grellik will end up accepting your proposal without much fuss, just to assure you guys--He just feels the need to deal with Trissae's furious packing/unpacking first. Even if only to get her input :D

ooo, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is out. New spells, bacjgrounds, etc. I've only seen the arcane cantrips (they brought back booming blade and Lightning Lure from 4e..which is cool, those are cool abilities), but I'm excited to see what all is in the book :D

Wow, just wow, I'm glad I waited. 1 inspiration grey!

Agreed, good post grey :D

um, aren't we supposed to not look at the foreign language bits?(or are you just talking about the thieves' cant?) (oh, and while I'm on the subject, how does one learn different languages in 5e?)

Eh I read all those when I see them. I just don't know that info in-character.

I'll be pretty harsh about signs of people using meta knowledge, be fore warned. I am less worried about the inter party foreign language spoilers, then I am about the others. Split party spoilers and skill check spoilers are def no-nos.

I just figured there's no point in spoilering language stuff if it was intended to be read. But I trust, you Grey, so I'll say nice post as well :D

By 'those' I did mean the language spoilers :D

you learn new skills(and languages) by putting time in, generally about a year and a gold cost (its in the dmg) the neat thing is that the skills are a lot more flexible (like you could take knot tying as a skill)

yeah, I like that it doesn't have to be tied into level up either...though a year. ouch. So chances are Grellik is not learning any new languages/proficiences not granted by level up any time soon :D

picked up sword coast, it was 10 dollars cheaper on amazon than elsewhere XD

as usual :D I still haven't picked up the PHB, so sword coast is lower on my list :D Is is good?

it releases the 3rd of november, and I think the delivery date through amazon was like the 8th or 9th. I'll let you know though

oh, right. Its not like you'd have it yet >.> I actually thought it was out already...that's probably why I can't seem to find a, uh, digital copy of it :D

I learn about all the new 5e products from you guys :D

I usually learn about it from teh Giant in the Playground forums, which I do a glance through for interesting threads every few days at least :D. I'm just super excited for it, as it represents basically the first (I know the Elemental Evil book had some character options, but I don't think it was extensive) in the style of sourcebooks they seem to be trying with this edition. Namely, setting sepcific books with plenty of universally applicable character options within. Really curious to see how it works out

Got a little Cavell side-story in the works, should bring some clarity to his morals and attitude. Wanted to finish it tonight but ran out of time.

Ooh I'm jazzed, can't wait!

So I've been considering relinquishing the houserule of gaining max HP at each level, but would like your inputs on the matter.