Oh look, a saving throw. Monk won't have a chance, will he? The monk build I linked to didn't have items either, so it could have a pretty good chance.
And even with a really high ac-
Spell perfection- flesh to stone.All feats that effect the spell are now 2x as effective. Make it a persistent spell, viola, save twice or die.
Dc of saving throw....
Let's say you had a 30 in your casting stat from the piles of magic items you have by this point.Make a... Dc 10+6+10+4
Dc 30 saving throw. Twice.
Note, i haven't used bloodline bounuses, class bounuses, ect...
To bypass sr, +8 above the charecter's level, so only on a 1 or a 2 do they fail.
That's... DC 30, Icehawk. >_>
I are dumb.
Nonetheless, my point stands.
With a +13 from a cloak of resistance, luck stone, and belt of physical perfection, it would still have a 4/20 chance of instant death, twice.
Still sitting in shock of the words underpowered monk"
Still sitting in shock of the words underpowered monk"
You really don't know how much of a trap monk is, do you?
It's about as useless as rouge in a group setting.
That math only adds up to 30, unless you forgot the base DC of 10.
I derped. But let's say you're an arcane blooded scorcerer.
Another +2 if you choose transmutation as your favored school,And another +1 to the dc if you add any other metamagic.
7/20 twice.
I enjoy playing monks
Also, I'll never see why you think fighters are broken, fireclaw. Casters rule because of a few reasons-
Influence in the story.
Oh, i just let us do 20 days of travel with one spell.
Mr fighter man- i hit it with my sword.
Instant death spells.
Summoned creatures- the fighter is now expendable.
And lastly, it doesn't really matter how many spells they have In a day unless they are always, ALWAYS under time constraints.
Because at late game, they decide the pace of the game. Creating temporary demiplanes so they can rest and recover spells, Or just using teleportation tactics, they can easily find any way to rest.
Early game-
Color spray. Nuff said.
You are assuming a few things, the biggest being that the spell aster has those spells, and that scrying let's you teleport somewhere that's twenty days away.
Yeah, that's true. But in the case of wizards, prepare your getaway spells every day, then change your spells to suit the changes of the next day.
Also, what annoys me is that-
If a class can do it, there's a spell that can do it better.
Now, I'm not here to say "spell casters are broken, bla bla bla" there are plenty of rant threads for that.
No, i want to know why fireclaw drake could possibly see fighters as broken.
He explained that rather nicely pages ago.
I probably missed it.
If you find that a monk or rogue is useless in a group, you are playing them wrong.
If you feel a Fighter is underpowered, you built him wrong.
Hope this helps
Spell resistance (abbreviated SR) is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. Some spells also grant spell resistance.
To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature's spell resistance. The defender's spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn't affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate.
Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below.
A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature's next turn. At the beginning of the creature's next turn, the creature's spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).
A creature's spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.
A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another.
Spell resistance does not stack, but rather overlaps.
When Spell Resistance Applies
Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does.
Targeted Spells
Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature's spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.
Area Spells
Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell's area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.
Effect Spells
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.
Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that's already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.
Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is back up.
Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Spell-resistant creatures can be harmed by a spell when they are not being directly affected.
Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature's senses or reveals something about the creature.
Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren't subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast.
Successful Spell Resistance
Spell resistance prevents a spell or a spell-like ability from affecting or harming the resistant creature, but it never removes a magical effect from another creature or negates a spell's effect on another creature. Spell resistance prevents a spell from disrupting another spell.
Against an ongoing spell that has already been cast, a failed check against spell resistance allows the resistant creature to ignore any effect the spell might have. The magic continues to affect others normally.
Went and read it.
A fighter has the same limitation as anyone else.
It's called hp.
Somthing he's more likely to run out of before the barbarian runs out of rage rounds.
And rouges don't burn through anything, are they broken?
(Hint: no.)
Hope this helps
** spoiler omitted **...
This does not change the rant at all, and actually makes it a larger problem. Now all illusion spells bypass, and you still have to waste time to lower sr.
Seriously, I'd just multiclass to fighter just to avoid sr.
Also, I'll never see why you think fighters are broken, fireclaw. Casters rule because of a few reasons-
Influence in the story.
Oh, i just let us do 20 days of travel with one spell.
Mr fighter man- i hit it with my sword.Instant death spells.
Summoned creatures- the fighter is now expendable.
And lastly, it doesn't really matter how many spells they have In a day unless they are always, ALWAYS under time constraints.
Because at late game, they decide the pace of the game. Creating temporary demiplanes so they can rest and recover spells, Or just using teleportation tactics, they can easily find any way to rest.
Early game-
Color spray. Nuff said.
I think your mind sets broken, yes that good for selfish "ill do it all my self" kind of PC, but at that lever your dealing being the head of a mass of others, cult, keep you name it, in a war or battle you just don't have time to bug out an rest, your loses resources and man power wile your not around,
The "I am an Ireland" world you for high level PCs end fast the the empire/ kingdom shows up and kicks your under resourced ass all over the place.
It's why even evil mage war lords build army's , SO they rest
It's why fighter/ monks/r and others classes that don't rune out of go go juice fast are good in a real war/battle, its why the warlock rocks, in a long battle you need sloggers not puff and done
Also, I'll never see why you think fighters are broken, fireclaw. Casters rule because of a few reasons-
Influence in the story.
Oh, i just let us do 20 days of travel with one spell.
Mr fighter man- i hit it with my sword.Instant death spells.
Summoned creatures- the fighter is now expendable.
And lastly, it doesn't really matter how many spells they have In a day unless they are always, ALWAYS under time constraints.
Because at late game, they decide the pace of the game. Creating temporary demiplanes so they can rest and recover spells, Or just using teleportation tactics, they can easily find any way to rest.
Early game-
Color spray. Nuff said.I think your mind sets broken, yes that good for selfish "ill do it all my self" kind of PC, but at that lever your dealing being the head of a mass of others, cult, keep you name it, in a war or battle you just don't have time to bug out an rest, your loses resources and man power wile your not around,
The "I am an Ireland" world you for high level PCs end fast the the empire/ kingdom shows up and kicks your under resourced ass all over the place.
It's why even evil mage war lords build army's , SO they rest
Not really, unless your dm for some stupid reason allows leadership. Just pull out your party with you. Anyway, I'm done.
Ice go to bed, my point is valid, you no longer know what your talking about, its not about one pcs leadership it's about big battle games, you just went back to "I'm an Ireland " PC playing with out reading what I said, and your arguing for the sake of it now, cus ya feel ya have to win. Now go to bed, you'll be less gripy in the morning.
;)
I get what you're saying, and I know it probably seems nit-picky, but as someone who hopes to design games in the future, I look for this kinda stuff. Cause it kills fun. I do understand that you have to look at the positives as well, (and the 'coolness factor'), but stuff like this is potentially game breaking. For example:
Monk is dying... -10HP, cleric only has 4 rounds to act! Okay! First round: fails to overcome SR, second round: fails to overcome SR, third round: fails to overcome SR, fourth round: fails to overcome SR, monk dies. Okay! Breath of Life! Fails to overcome SR.
Cleric uses up 5000g of diamonds to bring back his ally! But cannot overcome his resistance.... 5000gp down the drain!
And thus did that particular monk end his journey towards enlightenment: his soul was simply too strong to be healed.
Healer? Use a Heal check, that's a non-magical option. Secondly, one might would assume past 1st level or 3rd, there are potions at hand, right? Boom, quaff this, that should fix you up- or does SR work against force feeding you a health potion? I don't think so, as it was neither a spell nor spell-like ability. There are talents that auto-stabilize on touch, a dedicated healer might have that (lord knows I would take it). Perhaps if in the course of this Monk's perilous career (given their huge defensive style) the feat to auto stabilize was taken? Diehard, anyone?
As for the 5000 gp expense, sure, but consider yourself a ghost sitting in Limbo or whatever, knowing your helpful cleric or teammates would try to res you, why wouldn't you have your SR downshifted waiting? If its because your in Hell still fighting, I wouldn't say that's a dead character yet, story is still going for the Monk.
Additionally... Archetypes. I'm fairly sure the entire Monk's career pre-SR gain, you could plot before hand, which i will admit has nothing to do with your example, but ends this argument well in advance.
Choosing (because you always have a choice in these games) whether or not to take SR before you get there with all the blessings and failures, is just that. A choice. I do not sit convinced that the design described for a highly defensive and master of their body class, the Monk, fails in any way if/when they obtain the SR stage.
Hope that presents a view that supports less "edit the system and/or complaining" and more enticement to play with the tools developed and tested over the years. Call me a fan defending it, if you will, but this Pathfinder rule set is pretty damn clean.
I've only ever felt a lack of "fun" when another human imposed a home brew rule that shakes up the established with their sense of right. Hope that makes sense. Besides, ultimately, talk the rules out with your GM and players. Discuss and change 'em. It's not as if you're forced to play with unyielding strangers, right?
Wouldn't a good GM in those situations above ignore some rolls and just say the Monk is saved? Less rigid too, and happiness all around unless the backstabbing rogue who did it sees his hard work being foiled.
More than two bits, for sure.
I don't understand why there would be any flames at all regarding temp hp. As far as I know folks have been using them correctly. Confused.
As for the monk SR problem, I'd probably employ a house rule to avoid stupidity (letting it be dropped with less than a standard action).
Ah, I could have sworn Foul was constantly regenerating those temporary hit points. Guess I was wrong!
Anyhow, he didn't respond so I'll just presume he had zero interest or didn't read my posts.
Cheers.
Still digging through Discussion, quite active today.
Ice go to bed, my point is valid, you no longer know what your talking about, its not about one pcs leadership it's about big battle games, you just went back to "I'm an Ireland " PC playing with out reading what I said, and your arguing for the sake of it now, cus ya feel ya have to win. Now go to bed, you'll be less gripy in the morning.
;)
It's not even 5 in the afternoon.
Look- you can easily take your party with you to restore spells. In Charecter, most people don't have a problem with someone doing their work for them, so if the wizard can send all of us to a demiplane, let us slack for a day, and come back and do everything with a few spells, that's a great idea! Let's do that!
Dami, SR calls out "your own" items. Someone else's potion would have to beat your SR. Someone giving you a potion from your own pack would have to do the same, because once it's in their hand it's not yours anymore.
This. Auto-stabilize is spell like, too.
How many clerics would actually bother put ranks in heal when they can do the most important feature of heal as a cantrip?
Also, your dead soul cast lower your sr for you- it's your body doing it, even when dead
Cleric gets full spell-casting, as cleric bab (no, really?), and can cast in full armor.
I fail to see how the two are balanced.
Still sitting in shock of the words underpowered monk"You really don't know how much of a trap monk is, do you?
It's about as useless as rouge in a group setting.
I agree. Sharing my rouge with others is other a useless thing to do.
Care to describe the "useless" setting you're imagining so we have context? I know a ton of scenarios were a lack of rogue class/skills/abilities means zero progress without proper magic to back things up.
Or a trap Monk, if I understand the term being flung around.
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I don't understand why there would be any flames at all regarding temp hp. As far as I know folks have been using them correctly. Confused.
As for the monk SR problem, I'd probably employ a house rule to avoid stupidity (letting it be dropped with less than a standard action).
Ah, I could have sworn Foul was constantly regenerating those temporary hit points. Guess I was wrong!
Anyhow, he didn't respond so I'll just presume he had zero interest or didn't read my posts.
Cheers.
Still digging through Discussion, quite active today.
nope, I read it, didn't really apply so I moved on
Dami, SR calls out "your own" items. Someone else's potion would have to beat your SR. Someone giving you a potion from your own pack would have to do the same, because once it's in their hand it's not yours anymore.
Too much rules lawyering, and thus killing the fun and spirit of the game. Why do that?
Did he drink the potion? Is it a healing potion? If he were awake and drank it, would it work for no other reason that being conscious to subconsciously /know/ its his potion? Come on, that's just absurd.
Is this how you folks play these games? Seriously, back up and chill a touch. Or go be lawyers, you may do fabulously in the field. :D
Note: humor
Ones that want to speed up healing without wasting spells and channels? My Oracle of Life had max ranks, and used them often, even at level 12.
See? Options and choices.
I agree. Sharing my rouge with others is other a useless thing to do.
Care to describe the "useless" setting you're imagining so we have context? I know a ton of scenarios were a lack of rogue class/skills/abilities means zero progress without proper magic to back things up.
Or a trap Monk, if I understand the term being flung around.
Most things a rouge can do can be done by a scorcerer with 3 lv 1 spells.
Knock, summon monster 1, and charm person.
Summon monster one to find and disarm traps. Just set them off with a useless creature.
It's not even 5 in the afternoon.
Look- you can easily take your party with you to restore spells. In Charecter, most people don't have a problem with someone doing their work for them, so if the wizard can send all of us to a demiplane, let us slack for a day, and come back and do everything with a few spells, that's a great idea! Let's do that!
Ice why do you think an army dos not relent in its attack, its so your party and all, the other party's in a siege, battle, just don't get time to rest, the idea to to ware you down to braking point, no sleep no getting spells back just wave after wave of attacks, then fighters come into their own and the wom-bam-think you mam, mages are spent.
In a battle like that you just can't have teams bugging out to a Demi plain for a bit of RnR, its relentless, you go something falls, it's stand and fight.
"Who on the west gate they are attacking again."
"No one, we had a bunch of adventures but they left to have a rest"
"O #%}}%"
I agree. Sharing my rouge with others is other a useless thing to do.
Care to describe the "useless" setting you're imagining so we have context? I know a ton of scenarios were a lack of rogue class/skills/abilities means zero progress without proper magic to back things up.
Or a trap Monk, if I understand the term being flung around.
Most things a rouge can do can be done by a scorcerer with 3 lv 1 spells.
Knock, summon monster 1, and charm person.
Summon monster one to find and disarm traps. Just set them off with a useless creature.
For how long?
Point made, Ace ya done
Ones that want to speed up healing without wasting spells and channels? My Oracle of Life had max ranks, and used them often, even at level 12.See? Options and choices.
Alright then, I suppose it may be useful in a campain where you're rushed at things all the time.
Anyway, sure. Stabilize him.
Now get him back up and ready to fight with that check, before the next fight comes.
You'll have to heal him to get them standing.
And yeah, options and choices. That doesn't make much sense in this context.
Sure, you have that option, but i don't understand it.
I never said you didn't have the option.
And if the trap is an auto reset, or collapses the entire tunnel you're in?
One- don't be in the tunnel- send the thing in first.
Two, now you know where it is.
Did anyone put ranks in disarm device? Cause that's not rouge only.
It's not even 5 in the afternoon.
Look- you can easily take your party with you to restore spells. In Charecter, most people don't have a problem with someone doing their work for them, so if the wizard can send all of us to a demiplane, let us slack for a day, and come back and do everything with a few spells, that's a great idea! Let's do that!
Ice why do you think an army dos not relent in its attack, its so your party and all, the other party's in a siege, battle, just don't get time to rest, the idea to to ware you down to braking point, no sleep no getting spells back just wave after wave of attacks, then fighters come into their own and the wom-bam-think you mam, mages are spent.
In a battle like that you just can't have teams bugging out to a Demi plain for a bit of RnR, its relentless, you go something falls, it's stand and fight.
"Who on the west gate they are attacking again."
"No one, we had a bunch of adventures but they left to have a rest"
"O #%}}%"
I said in my post earlier-
"With the exception of time constraints."
Also, wizard vs army-
Cloudkill. Everyone dies, the end.
The frustrations being expressed are very situational, with a focus mostly on the point if failure, thus throwing out the bath water with the baby.
Plus, the complaints are somewhat moot. Just choose to play something else that doesn't annoy.
Non-casters have endurance behind their abilities, while casters have spell cast limits per day.
This is why you'd bring a rogue. Locked door? Knock didn't work? Now what? Anti magic area? Tons of story specific scenarios tailored to the party situations to promote happy of their choices players having fun.
Cheers.
Wrong big army s don't fall, for that
It's why they have skirmishers
It's not even 5 in the afternoon.
Look- you can easily take your party with you to restore spells. In Charecter, most people don't have a problem with someone doing their work for them, so if the wizard can send all of us to a demiplane, let us slack for a day, and come back and do everything with a few spells, that's a great idea! Let's do that!
Ice why do you think an army dos not relent in its attack, its so your party and all, the other party's in a siege, battle, just don't get time to rest, the idea to to ware you down to braking point, no sleep no getting spells back just wave after wave of attacks, then fighters come into their own and the wom-bam-think you mam, mages are spent.
In a battle like that you just can't have teams bugging out to a Demi plain for a bit of RnR, its relentless, you go something falls, it's stand and fight.
"Who on the west gate they are attacking again."
"No one, we had a bunch of adventures but they left to have a rest"
"O #%}}%"I said in my post earlier-
"With the exception of time constraints."
Also, wizard vs army-
Cloudkill. Everyone dies, the end.
Big army brought necromancer, voila, loyal new troops!
The frustrations being expressed are very situational, with a focus mostly on the point if failure, thus throwing out the bath water with the baby.
Plus, the complaints are somewhat moot. Just choose to play something else that doesn't annoy.
Non-casters have endurance behind their abilities, while casters have spell cast limits per day.
This is why you'd bring a rogue. Locked door? Knock didn't work? Now what? Anti magic area? Tons of story specific scenarios tailored to the party situations to promote happy of their choices players having fun.
Cheers.
I prefer not to have to bend the story i had in mind just because one charecter isn't as useful.
But then again, I've never got to play an rl game for longer then 2 sessions, only be the GM, and for me that was a living hell that i continued doing out of guilt. Maybe i don't know what I'm talking about.
It's probably because I've never been a pc in a game that you actually progress and gain levels in normally.
Big army brought necromancer, voila, loyal new troops!It's not even 5 in the afternoon.
Look- you can easily take your party with you to restore spells. In Charecter, most people don't have a problem with someone doing their work for them, so if the wizard can send all of us to a demiplane, let us slack for a day, and come back and do everything with a few spells, that's a great idea! Let's do that!
Ice why do you think an army dos not relent in its attack, its so your party and all, the other party's in a siege, battle, just don't get time to rest, the idea to to ware you down to braking point, no sleep no getting spells back just wave after wave of attacks, then fighters come into their own and the wom-bam-think you mam, mages are spent.
In a battle like that you just can't have teams bugging out to a Demi plain for a bit of RnR, its relentless, you go something falls, it's stand and fight.
"Who on the west gate they are attacking again."
"No one, we had a bunch of adventures but they left to have a rest"
"O #%}}%"I said in my post earlier-
"With the exception of time constraints."
Also, wizard vs army-
Cloudkill. Everyone dies, the end.
Kill necromancer, repeat with undeath to death. Everyone dies again.
Wrong big army s don't fall, for that
It's why they have skirmishers
Cloudkill kills everything of 6hd and below with no save, and moves according to the caster's focus.
Even in theory, i fear my first pc being less useful then the other pc's. it's a lot of the reason for this whole rant.
Why do you think i got so upset with mind blank?
It's because i felt useless when my pc couldn't do anything to help.
That's why I was so upset when the vai indecent occurred.
I felt so ****ing useless.
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Big army brought necromancer, voila, loyal new troops!It's not even 5 in the afternoon.
Look- you can easily take your party with you to restore spells. In Charecter, most people don't have a problem with someone doing their work for them, so if the wizard can send all of us to a demiplane, let us slack for a day, and come back and do everything with a few spells, that's a great idea! Let's do that!
Ice why do you think an army dos not relent in its attack, its so your party and all, the other party's in a siege, battle, just don't get time to rest, the idea to to ware you down to braking point, no sleep no getting spells back just wave after wave of attacks, then fighters come into their own and the wom-bam-think you mam, mages are spent.
In a battle like that you just can't have teams bugging out to a Demi plain for a bit of RnR, its relentless, you go something falls, it's stand and fight.
"Who on the west gate they are attacking again."
"No one, we had a bunch of adventures but they left to have a rest"
"O #%}}%"I said in my post earlier-
"With the exception of time constraints."
Also, wizard vs army-
Cloudkill. Everyone dies, the end.
I think you just made his point....