Summoned creatures and WISHES!!!

I know that this doesn't come up normally because most play is done at levels 3 -9 in PFS. The problem is when retirement level (12th) and above is played now; certain spellcasters can bring into play powerful creatures capable of casting wishes that costs nothing to gain powerful effects one of them being gaining permanent inherent bonus's to any ability score.
What is to prevent anyone from summoning/casting into play especially a high level caster several instances of creatures with wishes to give themself or others permanent inherent bonus's since they have complete control of these creatures and their use of their abilities?
I know that there is only a small number of players that can do this now and not all of them think that way; but there are those exceptions to the rule so how can control be maintained on that?
Is there currently any actual RULING on this because this will be a way for high level casters to gain inherent bonus's for free!

What is to prevent them from doing this? That would be the rules. Read Summon Monster:

Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

Yes, all permanent effects (except for 4 spells listed in the Guide; I believe continual flame and masterwork transformation are two of them) end at the end of a scenario.

So while they could get that bonus at the beginning of a scenario, it would end at the end of the scenario.

Additionally, it is fairly difficult and expensive to boot, to summon these creatures.

At least 3 different spells with expensive components are necessary, and at least 2 or 3 saves plus a difficult charisma check is necessary, then they have to bargain with the creature, which can cost them thousands of gold.

I don't see this being a feasible way to spend your resources (3 high level spell slots and thousands of gold every time) every scenario.

Yes, all permanent effects (except for 4 spells listed in the Guide; I believe continual flame and masterwork transformation are two of them) end at the end of a scenario.

I don't think this is true. If you are hit with blindness/deafness, it would be permanent at the end of the scenario unless you paid for a remove blindness. Or hit with feeblemind, or flesh to stone. (note that some of your and my examples both are a duration of instantaneous and not permanent).

There's a difference that has been explained in the 7,000 threads about this very issue.

Spells that create a permanent condition do not have their effect end. That permanent condition will always remain unless handled.

It may be splitting hairs, but it is a very important distinction.

I can't think of an example where a "permanent" or "instantaneous" spell that created a negative effect did not add a condition to the character (whether that be cursed, blinded, etc.)

I also can't think of an example where a "permanent" or "instantaneous" spell that created a positive effect actually added a condition to the character (with the exception of perhaps baleful polymorph as some folks think that being a bunny rabbit paladin is cool).

First, let's be clear- what's being talked about here is Calling a creature to grant wishes for you, as with planar binding or planar ally. Second, to answer your question as to what stops people from casting planar binding, calling an efreet, and getting three wishes to get a +3 inherent bonus to their casting stat: Technically nothing stops players from doing such a thing (to the best of my incomplete knowledge, anyway).

Realistically, though, the cost and risk of doing so keeps most players from trying. As Andrew said, it's a fairly involved and expensive process which is by no means is guaranteed to work and has hefty consequences for failure (i.e. death). I'm sure there are people who have succeeded in doing such a thing, but it's a rare enough event that it probably just gets handled on the local level.

Spells

The following spells found in the Core Rulebook are not
legal for play and may never be used, found, purchased,
or learned in any form by PCs playing Pathfinder Society
Scenarios: awaken, permanency, and reincarnate.

All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with
the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage or remove harmful
conditions remain in effect at the end of the scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario.
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.

First, let's be clear- what's being talked about here is Calling a creature to grant wishes for you, as with planar binding or planar ally. Second, to answer your question as to what stops people from casting planar binding, calling an efreet, and getting three wishes to get a +3 inherent bonus to their casting stat: Technically nothing stops players from doing such a thing (to the best of my incomplete knowledge, anyway).

Realistically, though, the cost and risk of doing so keeps most players from trying. As Andrew said, it's a fairly involved and expensive process which is by no means is guaranteed to work and has hefty consequences for failure (i.e. death). I'm sure there are people who have succeeded in doing such a thing, but it's a rare enough event that it probably just gets handled on the local level.

And the wish spell effects would end at the end of the scenario (unless it is used to imitate one of the 4 spells that do carry over), thus requiring the risk and cost to be spent over and over and over. Highly costly.

As a GM, I also would not allow the player to slow down the actual scenario by having me adjudicate his planar binding every scenario.

1) Those spells require lots of time to prep and resources. Something not commonly found in PFS.
2) Spells like Planar binding and Planar Ally have huge GM roles. They are run by the GM. You have to give them something for their services. They're not free once you bring the called creature to your plane.
3) Wish effects would end at the end of the scenario/module.

So if a player decides to try it, they just spent a huge wad of cash, threatened a very high CR creature, wasted the rest of the tables time, and in return got some measly little bump to an ability score. In return, you have opened Pandora's box of tabletop gaming. You just gave the GM free rein. It's a pretty bad trade off in my opinion.

I don't mind that summoned creatures giving you free wishes is broken by PFS rules. It's a loophole that doesn't seem appropriate for PFS.

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the idea that wish effects wipe with each scenario. If conditions like blindness/deafness/lost limbs/level drain/ability drain are permanent, and I have to spend resources to cure them, then I find it more than a little screwed up that should I spend the resources to cast 1 to 5 wishes on myself to increase my stats, it only lasts for the game.

Disclaimer: It's my understanding that there are Seeker / Retirement archs that go to level 18. If that's not the case, then this point is moot.

I don't mind that summoned creatures giving you free wishes is broken by PFS rules. It's a loophole that doesn't seem appropriate for PFS.

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the idea that wish effects wipe with each scenario. If conditions like blindness/deafness/lost limbs/level drain/ability drain are permanent, and I have to spend resources to cure them, then I find it more than a little screwed up that should I spend the resources to cast 1 to 5 wishes on myself to increase my stats, it only lasts for the game.

Disclaimer: It's my understanding that there are Seeker / Retirement archs that go to level 18. If that's not the case, then this point is moot.

Those are the rules. And it makes perfect sense so that people can't exploit rules such as these.

That being said, the Seeker arc takes you to level 13.2, and sanctioned modules, gen con specials, Grand Convocations, and and Sanctioned APs can probably get you to level 20 by now.

Not suggesting that "wish wiping" isn't the rule, just expressing my dissatisfaction with the idea.

Additionally, I'm sure (at least to my sensibilities) that there could be better ways of plugging up this kind of loophole (the free wishes from summoned creatures) than to create the "wish wipe" blanket rule.

I don't mind that summoned creatures giving you free wishes is broken by PFS rules. It's a loophole that doesn't seem appropriate for PFS.

Either you are confusing summoned creatures with called creatures or you are not aware of a Core Pathfinder Rule found in the summon monster spell.

"Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)."

So there is no PFS specific rule banning wish from summoned creatures. It's just a generic rule applicable to all play.

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the idea that wish effects wipe with each scenario. If conditions like blindness/deafness/lost limbs/level drain/ability drain are permanent, and I have to spend resources to cure them, then I find it more than a little screwed up that should I spend the resources to cast 1 to 5 wishes on myself to increase my stats, it only lasts for the game.

::Shrug:: PFS isn't for everyone. We as players and Judges do not have say over that. This is a decision made by Mike and others. They have their reasons for it and have been accepting of minimal changes (ex: masterwork transformation, continual flame). I don't see them giving in on something like wish.

Disclaimer: It's my understanding that there are Seeker / Retirement archs that go to level 18. If that's not the case, then this point is moot.

As Andrew said, Eyes of the Ten goes to 13.2. However, you can play to 18, just not in one single story arch/scenario. Getting to 18 involves playing specials, pieces of adventure paths, and modules. Of which the wish would end at each of these.

Either you are confusing summoned creatures with called creatures or you are not aware of a Core Pathfinder Rule found in the summon monster spell.

"Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)."

So there is no PFS specific rule banning wish from summoned creatures. It's just a generic rule applicable to all play.

Here is the official ruling in the core rulebook that I missed, thanks for the insight. It seems that one must pay 25,000 gp material component for the wish spell itself "WOW" and if duplicating spells with material components of over 10,000 gp the additional cost for the component is added to the wishes material component- INTENSE!!

If you want the Wish bonus to stats, there are tomes that give you exactly that, for the same price as it would take for a wish to be cast on you. Their effects won't go away at the end of a scenario/module.

Now, in fairness, Wish gets used so rarely in overall PFS play that a ruling on whether Wish's effects last past the end of a scenario is probably sitting right above "dealing with every person who doesn't like the way things get done" in the priority junkpile. Someday a scenario may feature a Wish-granting creature, and Mark or Mike may then offer a ruling on the suddenly relevant issue. But until then, the discussion is rather moot.

Now, in fairness, Wish gets used so rarely in overall PFS play that a ruling on whether Wish's effects last past the end of a scenario is probably sitting right above "dealing with every person who doesn't like the way things get done" in the priority junkpile. Someday a scenario may feature a Wish-granting creature, and Mark or Mike may then offer a ruling on the suddenly relevant issue. But until then, the discussion is rather moot.

The discussion is not moot because current PFS play allows up to 17th level scenarios, before this level you bring into play creatures with wish capability so yes it should be considered even though the number of high level casters 13+ is not like the number of 1st level but the number is only just increasing and should be considered early on as to limit broken capabilities.

Quote:

Now, in fairness, Wish gets used so rarely in overall PFS play that a ruling on whether Wish's effects last past the end of a scenario is probably sitting right above "dealing with every person who doesn't like the way things get done" in the priority junkpile. Someday a scenario may feature a Wish-granting creature, and Mark or Mike may then offer a ruling on the suddenly relevant issue. But until then, the discussion is rather moot.

The discussion is not moot because current PFS play allows up to 17th level scenarios, before this level you bring into play creatures with wish capability so yes it should be considered even though the number of high level casters 13+ is not like the number of 1st level but the number is only just increasing and should be considered early on as to limit broken capabilities.

It has been considered. The cost of a book granting a +1 inherent bonus is essentially the same as it costs to cast Wish.

The cost of Planar Binding (the only way to get another creature to cast the spell for you) makes the cost even more prohibitive.

So essentially its cheaper just to buy the +1 book of whatever.

Secondly, it has been considered, and the effects of the spell wear off at the end of a session. That's the rule. Its been considered.

You don't have to like it.

But realistically, the chance that anyone would spend that kind of cash to get a +1 bonus in a stat once they are high enough level with enough cash to buy it, they will just spend their 30k on a +6 belt or headband.

The Call Celestial Servant ability of the Sacred Servant Paladin Archetype lets you call outsider without a material component. But since these outsiders are sent by your deity, your DM is going to have to adjudicate what a reasonable task is based off of religion and the temperament of the outsider.

In 12+ play, you could call some pretty powerful outsiders.

It gets you past the material components of the Planar Ally line of spells but you still have to negotiate and pay the called outsider for their services.

Also, a lot of GMs play the called outsider, not you. I have seen a player use this to call up a hound archon. The archon was mostly useless as it would only agree to kill evil outsiders and make snarky comments while we battled the Aspis. By the way...the scenario didn't have any outsiders in it.

Actually, you don't need to pay for the services:

At 8th level, a sacred servant can call upon her deity for aid, in the form of a powerful servant. This allows the sacred servant to cast lesser planar ally once per week as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant (for reasonable tasks).

Actually, you don't need to pay for the services:

PRD wrote:

At 8th level, a sacred servant can call upon her deity for aid, in the form of a powerful servant. This allows the sacred servant to cast lesser planar ally once per week as a spell-like ability without having to pay the material component cost or the servant (for reasonable tasks).

Somehow, to me, casting a Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish doesn't sound like a "reasonable task".

A reasonable task would be casting buff spells, using ranged attacks in combat, casting healing spells out of combat, etc. Stuff that, overall, doesn't have a high cost, nor a high risk factor.

Somehow, to me, casting a Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish doesn't sound like a "reasonable task".

A reasonable task would be casting buff spells, using ranged attacks in combat, casting healing spells out of combat, etc. Stuff that, overall, doesn't have a high cost, nor a high risk factor.

Yeah, strongly agree with this.

Is there anything else that Summoned Monsters can't cast besides Wish and summoning another monster?

What's the cut off in GP for this rule to apply:

"Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)"

Is the 50gp of Ruby dust needed to cast Continual Flame too much to expect out of a summoned creature?

Is there anything else that Summoned Monsters can't cast besides Wish and summoning another monster?

What's the cut off in GP for this rule to apply:

"Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)"

Is the 50gp of Ruby dust needed to cast Continual Flame too much to expect out of a summoned creature?

I would say that if the component isn't assumed to be in your spell component pouch, then the summoned creature couldn't cast that spell.

Chalk Microbe wrote:

Is there anything else that Summoned Monsters can't cast besides Wish and summoning another monster?

What's the cut off in GP for this rule to apply:

"Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)"

Is the 50gp of Ruby dust needed to cast Continual Flame too much to expect out of a summoned creature?

I would say that if the component isn't assumed to be in your spell component pouch, then the summoned creature couldn't cast that spell.

Looks like i have to play Necro with this Thread... uh...

Anyway, 2 more Questions for that:

1. Whats with a Focus? If a Creature summoned has a spell prepared, is it safe to assume that it has the Focus (The Rules state "Material Component" and i don't know if the really mean only Material Components or if that also includes an expensive Focus)?
2. Whats with Spell-like abilities which are constant in effect and don't have to be cast? (Fly, True Seeing, See Invis etc.)

Regards, Calimar_T.

EDIT: Well, my search turned out a Post in the Society General Forums, not in the Rule Forums... if anyone could still answer that, i would not have to post it in the General Rules Section again ;-)

As we are necro-ing this anyway:

Now, in fairness, Wish gets used so rarely in overall PFS play that a ruling on whether Wish's effects last past the end of a scenario is probably sitting right above "dealing with every person who doesn't like the way things get done" in the priority junkpile. Someday a scenario may feature a Wish-granting creature, and Mark or Mike may then offer a ruling on the suddenly relevant issue. But until then, the discussion is rather moot.

Well, there is one:

there is also a new scenario with a wish granting creature that i will not name cause im no good at formatting comments. although that scenario does have long term effect.