Are you sure the only thing Vissannica knows about the creature is that it's called an Owlbear and it's big? A 15 should make the check, and generally we get some useful information...Whether or not it has reach would really impact her strategy.
Overall, that was a very fun session, and I'm down to go with the flow to keep things fun, but I do want to bring up a discussion about the tactical retreat plan that got nixed at the end of the session. The two issues that were raised were getting back in over the gate, and the lack of cover near the fortress.
As far as getting back in if they choose to bar the gate: obscuring mist for cover+spider climb to get a rope over could make for a viable gate or even tower assault, particularly at night.
If the keep can see people within a few hours ride, then we'd be able to see riders leaving the keep from a few hours ride. If we see too many people coming, we withdraw, with a few hours head start. If they send out a small force, maybe we let them close and engage. Their horses are injured and spooked, and likely not combat trained. We could likely pick off a few as they close, and be set for a charge. I doubt they'll want to all come out and leave the fort empty, and the key here is to not face the entire fort garrison all in one day, while keeping the fort and surroundings in sight to prevent any reinforcements. The clear visibility around the fort helps the siege as well as hinders it, particularly because they are poorly organized and don't have reliable communication (that we know of) to their roaming bandits.
We generally have better night vision than them, so a nighttime assault on our camp position would give us a chance to withdraw as well, assuming they could even manage to stumble upon us. We could wait til after nightfall to set up camp, so they couldn't track our movements from a distance.
That all said, if we are supposed to just fight our way through this fort all in one go, so be it, and that sounds like fun too. I might have reconsidered taking all area of effect offense spells, but it's not a big difference, and maybe was still the right choice.
All,
We are very close to entering the phase of the campaign when Kingdom Building becomes a major focus. While standard adventuring will still occur, your roles within the Kingdom will be closely related and the results of those adventures can have consequences to the kingdom building.
As we move forward I may tweak a few items for balance and flavor, the Mage’s Tower as an item churning out magic items has been pointed out as highly unbalanced for example. But mostly we will try to stick to the rules. Please see below:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar/kingdomB uilding.html
Do we need to start coming up with names for things in our new kingdom?
I think we should at least name our new fort. We might consider naming the kingdom, the new settlement, and we could even rename the rivers and various landmarks, though those will take time to catch on. Just seems like a thing orderly invaders do to start asserting control - renaming things.
"Razdovia" for the kingdom?
All, I've ran a few turns of Kingdom building. May or may not do more, but have come away with an impression of how it works. My takeaways:
*The system sort of works like tabletop Civilization, except that each turn is a month and things only get built if you pay for them. Also, claiming territory is a 2-step process: you explore a hex, then you came claim it. Claiming territory costs cash ("Build Points"). Cities are called Settlements and have their own map.
*Leadership positions are a unique feature of the Pathfinder Kingdom building system. There are 13+ such positions, but 10 of them create a penalty if not filled. PC's are of course the first choice to fill these, and how well you help the Kingdom is based on one of your stats. It will be important for the PC's to be very good in one key stat. Also, it is critical to have someone, anyone in each of these 10 positions bc the vacancy penalty is quite stiff.
*Kingdoms have three key stats, Stability, Economy and Loyalty. Of these, Loyalty is substantially less important. Stability checks were about a 50/50 in my simulation and you do them a lot. Economy deals with collecting taxes for Build Points, which is your life blood.
*The overall process of building out a Kingdom is challenging, I wanted to build a lot faster than my Stability checks and Build Points would allow. I followed the guidelines from Ultimate Campaign and started with 50 Build Points and a House+Inn on the Hex I first claimed as the Kingdom. The Build Points went fast.
*The Kingdom Builder program from DaddyDM is very helpful for the map but the Turn Wizard is only so-so. It does have some functionality but also some glitches: for example, the taxes collection turn has you make a check you don't actually need to do. Still, the program is a plus.
*Without lots of competent (i.e. high key stat) people in leadership roles, the Kingdom Building endeavor could get really swing-y. A stretch of bad roles (which we are collectively very capable of) could just about ruin things in...
I can't find it in the book just now, but I'm pretty sure the House name is "Rasdovain" (with an S, not Z).
Regardless, yeah, let's (re)name stuff! Anastasia would angle for a long formal title for the soon-to-be Kingdom, knowing that it would get short-handed. How about the Imperial Priestly Magisterium of Rasdovia? Cheliax is all about wordy, overly complex titles so it would fit. And, of course, everybody just calls it "Rasdovia".
I attached the map to aid in re-looking the main areas. I see 2-3 rivers, a lake, a forest (that still needs fey cleared out of it), a swamp (Anastasia has a few choice names for that), a road, and then fort and maybe the trading post.
I'm a bit overloaded in RL just now, but I start looking back into the Kingdom building rules in the near future.
Wanted to take a look at the various Kingdom Leadership positions to see where best to slot in our PC’s as well as the NPC’s we can (hopefully) recruit. Take a look and chime in! It is harder than it looks…..
I think it’s important to consider three factors when considering what leadership positions someone should take on. First, what position would fit the background and interests of each PC/NPC? Patrick eluded to the position each PC takes mattering for them, so this should be considered. Second, statistically where is it best to put each PC/NPC? Each position has two ability scores that decide how well they do that particular job. These bonuses being high can be critical to the Kingdom’s success, so as much as possible we want a PC or NPC in a role that utilizes their best stat. Finally, we should consider what roles the NPC’s could most plausibly take on. Auchs could be made the Treasurer, but really?
Keep in mind there are 10 leadership positions that, if not filled, hurt the Kingdom. And they tend to hurt bad. So filling these 10 immediately is critical. There are other positions (like Royal Enforcer) that are helpful but we really need to wait to the fill these until the main 10 are filled. We have 5 PC’s, so we need 5 NPC’s to round out the 10. The 5 NPC’s I’d propose recruiting are: Bokken, the Guard Captain back at Olegs, the Boggard, and Akiros (the Bandit that turned to our side vs the Stag Lord) and either Oleg or Svetlana (or maybe both as one). If anyone can think of others, we could potentially use them too.
So, with all that in mind, here’s my swipe at lining up PC/NPC’s with roles:
Ruler (key stat=Cha): Anastasia. She was kind of made for this, so it’s a huge fit for the PC. Likewise, Charisma is her best stat, no one else among the PC’s is especially strong in Charisma, and this is not an NPC role.
Councilor (key stat=Cha or Wis): Oleg/Svetlana. This was a tough one. The title is misleading as the job is basically translating and conveying the Kingdom’s instructions to citizens. More liaison than councilor. I didn’t see this as a great fit for any of the PC’s, and Oleg/Svetlana are some of our few PC options not fighting-centric. Lastly, the bonus this position gives is to Loyalty, which in the demo I ran was the least useful Kingdom stat.
General (key stat=Cha or Str): Vissanica. A bit of a tough choice because her Int is her better stat, but the strategy focus seems too good a fit to pass up from what Bannigan has defined. Other PC’s and NPC’s could do this job, and we could certainly use our favorite sword-talking elf elsewhere, but the personality fit drove this selection.
Grand Diplomat (key stat=Cha or Int). Oleg’s Guard Captain. Meh, really had nowhere to put this guy and none of the PC’s really identifies with the role. I can’t recall what Dox’s Charisma is, but if it is higher we could swap Dox into here instead. This is a prime position to swap out with some other more appropriate NPC (where is a frigggin’ bard when you need one!) where such arrives.
High Priest (key Stat=Cha or Wis): Akiros. I know, I know, this seems a weird choice but hear me out. Dox would make sense here, but I don’t think we intend to run a druidic-based Kingdom. Akiros wouldn’t be a high priest in any traditional sense but rather a continuation of Anastasia’s cleric status. As ruler, she’d angle for prefer to echo an Abadar with some good ol’ Chelix (read: Asmodeus) religious vantage point, and as an Abadar-renewed guy, Akiros would fit in a way. Part of my logic here is also that we could use Dox’s Wisdom a lot of other places whereas we have fewer ideal spots for Akiros.
Magister: (key stat=Cha or Int): Bokken. Vissannica is probably as or more intelligent, but this was the only role that really seemed to fit the eccentric hermit. I doubt his non-Int stats are really much good, so we can get good impact here as well.
Marshall (key stat=Dex or Wis): Boggard. This was really the only role I could envision him taking. The job basically involves roaming around the remote parts of the Kingdom ensuring all is well. Other PC’s and NPC’s could totally have fit in this role, but I just didn’t see another home for this guy. Likewise, I’m assuming his Dex or Wisdom is decent, being a Druid or Ranger.
Spymaster (key stat=Dex or Int): El-Ion. Few of the positions emphasize Dex. I haven’t seen El-Ion’s stats but I’m guessing Dex is by far and away his best. Maybe a better personality fit for Marshall, but I think the Boggard really needed to go there so this is something of a next-best-thing fit.
Treasurer (key stat=Int/Wis): Dox. There are definitely roles that would likely fit Dox better from a personality standpoint, but his Wisdom could really help in this position that directly impact how much gold we bring in. And Jason does the treasure sheet, so there’s that too.
Warden (key stat=Con or Str): Zorthalus. The idea for being sort of the feared “internal affairs” guy seemed a good character fit for Z, as is the body guard role. The stats too are perfect. Aside from Anastasia as ruler this was the biggest slam dunk for slotting.
Again, this is just to get the convo started. Critique and recommend changes!
Thanks for kicking this off, Nate.
It's hard to know without a better idea of NPC stats, and I'm not sure how we would "test" for those. Any input from Patrick on how much we'll be able to tell about an NPC's comparative stats would helpful. Even if it's something like "Akiros is stronger than Kesten, and Kesten is stronger than El-ion," or something like that.
I approached things a bit differently, or perhaps I'll just add one more factor to your three factors. I have the understanding that in the early game Economy is the roll you make every turn and has the biggest impact. So we may want to put our best bonuses in places where it would impact Economy.
The roles that have vacancy penalties that can bonus Economy rolls are: Ruler, Magister, Marshal, Spymaster(or does Spymaster only impact Edict Phase?), and Treasurer. So I think we want to make sure those roles all have people with good stats in their appropriate roles.
So I was thinking Anastasia as Ruler, Vissannica as Magister, Dox as Marshal. I was considering Oleg as Treasurer(assuming a surly merchant/innkeeper would have a decent intelligence or wisdom, plus he's been honest with money with us so far) and El-ion as Spymaster.
But I actually do like Vissannica as General from a role play standpoint, and the difference is only one point, unless she gets a headband, then it's still only two points. I guess it comes down to Bokken's aptitude, and that there aren't many roles for Str characters, and I'm assuming Zorthalus, Kesten (Oleg's guard captain) and Akiros are strength people. Perhaps Akiros or Kesten have another decent stat.
I like Svetlana as Councilor and Zorthalus as Warden. I'm not sure Vissannica would trust El-ion as Spymaster, but I'm not sure she would trust anyone as Spymaster, except perhaps Dox. So she could be swayed by the devil-you-know argument.
I could see Auchs as Royal Enforcer (no vacancy penalty, but why not take the bonus if we can get it)
I'd like to hear more about the Boggard, Bokken, Akiros, and Kesten if possible.
My ramble so far...
Agreed RE: wanting to know a bit more about the NPC's stats. In truth, we don't even know for sure that these NPC's would agreed to the positions. So lot of assumptions there. I do think we are safe to reasonably assume that a Ranger would have a decent Dex, that a fighter probably doesn't have a ton of Int, etc. but more details about these folks might change our calculus.
I'd disagree a bit about the value of Economy. Don't get me wrong, it's important, but in running the demo Stability felt like the biggest need (Loyalty was a distant third). Each turn you make a crucial Stability check, which feel kind of like a save-or-suck Saving Throw. It's not an easy check and missing a number in a row can easily lead to an unsuccessful Kingdom. So I'd recommend making it the first priority, with Economy a strong second, and Loyalty a distant third.
I understand about Vissannica as Magister, but then where does Bokken go (assuming he agrees to this at all)? I'd like to be at least somewhat realistic about where NPC's could plausibly serve (but I love the Auchs=Royal Enforcer idea). As well, I'm sure we all want our PC's to go somewhere that makes sense for them. If someone really doesn't want there PC is some role that should be the biggest priority.
One other thing: Kingdom alignment. Really only two choices for this party (LE or LN) but it's a close call between them. We are basically evenly split between the two alignments. LN would balance the alignment benefit between Economy and Stability (+2 to each), whereas LE would be all-in for Economy. Personally, I like the LN angle better but we should probably get everyone's vote on this.
What’s was the software used to run turns? Guess I should try it out too and not rely too much on internet guides
A bit of guidance.
I am up for giving general guidance about stats... Stronger, seems wiser, is more charismatic, etc.
However, I want to keep this as Role-Play centered as possible. Just because a person has a high stat does not mean that they will be suited for/want a specific role. Sventlana might have a higher wisdom, but would not serve as a high-priest.
We all want the kingdom to be successful, but Role-playing is more important than "Roll-Playing" - To that end I will be giving minor bonuses and penalties to NPC's who are working in jobs that fit their persona or do not fit their persona.
Also to keep things role-play centered I intend for you to have to "recruit" these individuals. You will be meeting more NPCs as time goes on as well and roles can change as per the rules. Intra-court intrigue can happen as well... we will be working in time-frames of months and years so relationships will build and fall and assassinations and other things can happen.
As for Razdovain or Rasdovain, I think we can say there was an ancient spelling of the name that the Blade and its wielder prefer.
Hey guys,
I am caught up on the discussions both e-mail and forums and I think I know where we are. One question though, are we in downtime rules or kingdom rules?
I am leaning towards General or Enforcer for Z. I will post tomorrow on the RP forums.
Also, I plan to use the finding of the +1 Glaive as a sign from Asmodeus that Z should be starting to prepare for his trials in ernest.
Thanks,
Bill
@Z: take a look at Warden as a leadership role. Seems like a good fit for Z in my eyes, but if you don't like it we could look elsewhere.
We are in the Kingdom rules, not downtime.
Of the allies the group has found:
Auchs "OX": Human Fighter 3
Akiros Ismort: Human Paladin 2 (fallen) Barbarian 3.
Kesten Garress: Human Fighter 3
Svetlana: Human Expert 3
Oleg: Human Expert 3
Garuum: Boggard Druid 3
Jhod: Cleric 4
Ox is the strongest of the group, followed by Akiros then Kesten Garess. Akiros is only slightly stronger than Kesten.
No one in the group appears to be particularly deft or quick, with only Akiros being slightly above average.
Akiros is the healthiest of your allies, followed by Garuum who is well behind him in health.
Oleg seems to be the smartest of the bunch, but is nowhere near as smart as Vissanica. No one else seems particularly intelligent except Svetlana who is slightly less bright than Oleg.
Jhod, Garuum and Bookken are all quite wise, followed only slightly behind by Svetlana.
Akiros is the most charismatic of the group, followed very closely by Svetlana, Jhod and Kesten who are all equally likeable.
Please let me know if I am missing anyone you wished to consider.
Explorable Territory:
Under the new Charter you have rights to to the following lands, otherwise you will be invading others:
From the Staglord's Fort:
You may claim two hexes due east and four hexes due west making the kingdom seven hexes east to west.
You may claim five hexes north and four hexes south, making the kingdom ten hexes north to south.
For landmarks, you may claim as far north as Oleg's trading post and as far east as nettle's crossing. West you may claim up to one hex to the west of the statue of Erastil. To the south, you have not approached your border.
OK, with new info on the NPC's I wanted to re-look each position for possible assignments:
1) Ruler: Clearly Bokken! Ok, no this is Anastasia. Highest Charisma in the party (and ruler is only position that only uses Charisma) and Ruler is the one spot that needs to be a PC. Plus I already posted her announcing herself as ruler...so there.
2) Councilor: I still think Svetlana looks good for this, as both Charisma and Wisdom are good stats for her. Likewise, the role of "presenting the proclamations to the people in understandable ways" seems a good RP fit. Other possibilities here are Jhod, Kesten, Akiros and possibly Dox.
3) General: Both Zorthalus and Vissannica are good RP fits here, and both are good at one or both of Str and Int. Akiros and Kesten could do this too, but with two PC's directly interested in the role I think it should be one of these two. Obviously Bannigan and Bill should play a big part in deciding, but I might lean towards Z since his strength is higher and Vissannica's Int could be very useful elsewhere.
4) Grand Diplomat: Still no obvious choice here. Vissannica and Oleg have high Intelligences but both are IMO horrible RP choices for the job. Nobody else has Int so it comes to the Charisma folks: Jhod, Akiros, Svetlana and Kesten. Akiros seems a poor RP fit (just redeemed bandit representing us?) and Svetlana seems more appropriate for Councilor. So that would leave Kesten or Jhod, and whether either would take the job. Kesten was nobility, so maybe he would?
5) High Priest: another Charisma/Wisdom position. From an RP perspective it is somewhat weird that the Ruler is a priestess of a particular religion and the High Priest is something else. Still, Jhod and Dox make sense here due to high Wisdoms and being divine casters. I'd lean towards Dox as it is reasonable to see the position as more about promoting the Spirit of the new country (harkening back to Old Cheliax). Patrick has already indicated Akiros can't do the job, and Svetlana and Kesten just didn't make any sense RP-wise.
6) Magister: I was really counting on Bokken here, and him turning out to be a Wis-based NPC blew that out of the water. None of the Cha-based NPC's aside from Jhod fit this role. I'm hoping he would take the job. If not, I'm not sure what NPC would. Vissannica and Oleg have the Intelligence but like with Diplomat are a lousy RP fit. Anastasia might need to burn her Hero Point to get Jhod into the job.....
7) Marshall: Either Dex or Wisdom works here, and with so few Dex-based jobs those with high Dex become interesting here. Garuun has the Wisdom, but more and more I began wondering how much he'd be willing to do the job in our county (which will likely be Plains hexes only for the forseeable future). Jhod could maybe do this too, but I thought El-ian makes a great fit as a high-Dex Ranger. No other PC's are high-Dex, so this likely comes down to Jhod, Garuun (if he used him) or El-ian.
8) Spymaster: This is Int or Dex. El-ian has made sense here, and nobody else really brings the Dex. But RP wise it does seem a bit odd to put our Thrune "minder" in charge of our spies. Oleg has Intelligence but this seems a poor fit. I'd consider Vissannica here. I *think* it would be a good fit for her, being suspicious and all. She might not feel comfortable with anyone else doing it! Int is her best stat too.
9) Treasurer: Oleg is the only PC or NPC that seems to both have a good score in Int or Wis AND be a fit for the job. He's run a business so has the proverbial "head for numbers". Vissanica has Int but this doesn't seem a great RP fit. Jhod could perhaps do it, but there's no real connection I'm getting with the job.
10) Warden: For a long time I had Z slotted in here but Bill didn't necessarily see the fit. Likewise, there really are plenty of other folks to do it. This is the only position to emphesize Constitution, and that seems to be Akiros' best stat. Running internal security and bodyguard duties for Anastasia seems a solid RP fit as well. Vissanica has the Strength, and the RP fit isn't awful, but she could be far more useful elsewhere. Kesten could do it too, but my sense is that Akiros would be better at it.
11) Royal Enforcer: Even leaving off Garuun and Bokken, we have enough folks for this position to get filled. That is IF (big if) Auchs can do the job. He obviously has the Strength for it, and the position indicates that it works closely with the Warden and General, suggesting some supervision. However, if Patrick says Auchs can't do it we likely want to bring Garuun back into consideration for Marshall. In that case, El-ian (if Troy's game) could be the Enforcer as Dex is the other key stat. The position didn't seem a bad RP fit either.
Critique and change away!
Here's the best I got:
1) Ruler: Anastasia
2) Councilor: Svetlana
3) General: Zorthalus
4) Grand Diplomat: Kesten?
5) High Priest: Jhod
6) Magister: Vissannica
7) Marshall: Dox
8) Spymaster: El-ion
9) Treasurer: Oleg
10) Warden: Akiros
@Z: take a look at Warden as a leadership role. Seems like a good fit for Z in my eyes, but if you don't like it we could look elsewhere.
We are in the Kingdom rules, not downtime.
I don't think that Z has the Dex/Wis and I see him more as leading an army then being the long arm of the law.
To add some background as to why Vissannica might be fine with Zorthalus as General and El-Ion as Spymaster while she is in the perhaps less politically important role as Magister:
Vissannica would derive her power largely from her family name, her close relationship to the Ruler, her standing as a loyal noble of Cheliax, and, if necessary, her own personal force as a deadly battlemage.
She would be in whatever counts as the "small council" in Rasdovia, and would have a powerful voice in issues of the court regardless of political appointment.
She would likely be heavily involved in all matters of state that are not so up Anastasia's alley, such as war or spy networks, representing the interests of her House, which happens to be the House the kingdom was founded by, is currently ruled by, named after, etc.
Generals will come and go, as will Spymasters, and even Rulers. Vissannica and her blade, Livianus, will be around for generations. They are playing the long game, and having people handle the day to day while they are more free to guide from a bit of distance is useful.
Okay, so as I try to start envisioning Z as the General it just does not fit. I am working to put together his test and when I think about the Order of the Pyre and its dedication to quashing cults and supporting Chelaxian religions, I don't see leading an army as a natural fit. That does sound much more like the Warden, so I guess I am changing my mind.
If Vissannica is interested in the General position I think there could be some cool RP opportunities between General and Warden.
I don't know the plan for tonight, so maybe we can talk through some of this?
Initial Leadership:
Anastasia - Ruler - 18 Cha
Visanica - Magister - 21 Int
El-ian - Spymaster - 17 Dex
Zorthalus - Warden - 18 Str
Dox - Marshal - 18 Wis
Akiros Ismort - General - 18 Str
Auchs "Ox" - Royal Executioner/Enforcer - 20 Str
Oleg Leveton - Treasurer - 15 Int
Svetlana Leveton - Councilor - 15 Cha
Kesten Garess - Grand Diplomat - 14 Cha
Jhod Kavken - High Priest - 18 Wis
Turn Zero - Founding of settlement.
Spent 2 Build Points - one to claim, one to found in square with Stag Lord's Fort.
BP = 48
Economy = 15
Loyalty = 11
Stability = 20
New Westcrown - Thorpe
Turn 1 - It Begins
Starting BP = 46
Edict Phase
3 Consumption = -3 BP
Claim Hex 5-5 = -1 BP
Farm in 5-5 = - 2 BP
Fishery in 4-6 = - 2 BP
Mill in Thorpe = -6 BP
House in Thorpe = -3 BP
Collect Taxes = Roll 25 for +8 BP
Remaining BP = 40
Event Phase - To begin the next session!
We ended up doing another farm instead of the fishery.
Patrick:
Found this link for Kingmaker and Roll20...
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/7xesm5/i_want_to_run_kingm aker_through_roll20/
Unless we figured out already how to add it, we'll need to develop some way to remember the +1 to Economy/Stability/Loyalty that comes from placing our initial claim where we did (Bandit Fort).
I thought the spreadsheet propgram we used last night is the best way to keep track of Kingdom specs. Everyone can see it and contribute. Unless there are objections, I'm planning to stop using the Kingdom Manager program and will instead focus on keeping the Hexographer map up to date.
There is the yellow column called "+ events". Can add the 1's in it
Alternative google sheet that has received some good reviews. May try and figure out how to do map within Roll20 as well.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E-FWAQrRN-9IT2Pat0V_1QkO2QEkM9xR1nK _G124YdY/edit#gid=0
@J: Yep, see that now. Should be gtg.
@Patrick: That link comes back as a "file not found error" for me.
@All: Anybody know what the Landmark improvement is (bottom left corner in Kingdom Improvements Section)? Landmarks do give a +1 Loyalty but I don't know what Landmark we've claimed that's giving us this.
I believe the Stag Lord's Keep is a landmark.
While we continue to review and understand the system, noticed a few items to highlight for thought.
Resource: A Resource is a ready supply of some kind of valuable commodity that offers a great economic boon to your kingdom, such as exotic lumber, precious metal, gems, rare herbs, incense, silk, ivory, furs, salt, dyes, and the like. If you claim a hex with a Resource, Economy increases by 1. If you construct a Mine, Quarry, or Sawmill in a hex with a Resource, all of its benefits increase by 1. If you construct a Farm or Fishery in a hex with a Resource, those improvements decrease Consumption by an additional 1 BP.
River: A River allows water travel through your kingdom, facilitating trade and allowing irrigation. Economy increases by 1 for every 4 River hexes claimed, and Stability increases by 1 for every 8 such hexes claimed.
From this it appears the mine resource hexes provide a +1 to the bonuses listed under mines making it a +2 economy and +2 BP per turn.
Also, claiming river hexes provide the same benefit as roads without spending BP to improve the hex.
Resources appear to be a big deal so I would like to review our map again to ensure we have them updated in all the areas we explored. Same with landmarks.
This just reinforces wanting to Claim the hexes with the mines (5-3 and 6-5), as well as the river hexes. Since it has both, 6-5 seems a good target for our next hex, and to build a Mine on it.
I'm wondering if the Great Tree in 5-4 (where the Mites were) would count as a Landmark. If so, that could be a target too, but I think I'd target the river hexes first. I'm pretty sure the Tree is the only Landmark nearby our Kingdom's hexes, but Patrick could verify.
Do we have any rules on crafting during kingdom time? I believe each turn is a month. Does that allow for a month of crafting or ? Vissannica would like to get more scrolls scribed.
Each month we all (those in leadership positions, so all of us) have to spend 7 days focusing on our leadership duties. We can't craft magic items or adventure/explore during these 7 days. The other 23 days of each month I would think we can craft or adventure/explore. So Anastasia could craft as many scrolls as desired (they take 2 hours each).
I'm hoping we spend a good chunk of time exploring, especially the unrevealed hexes around our capitol.
I anticipate this session to be kingdom building and exploring the rules. The game suggests suspending events for the first 6-12 months to allow the group to settle into their roles. Log in to ROll 20 as I managed to figure out how to do a hex map with reveal capabilities... and there are more landmarks than just the Tree as revealed!
Landmarks look like Stonehenge, the paw print is a monster (typically dead now), resouces are coins, traps are bear traps.
That is awesome!
Turn 2 - It Begins
Starting BP = 40
Upkeep Phase - Success
Farms eliminate consumption
Edict Phase
Claim Hex (-1 BP) 6-5 Sootscale Caverns -1 BP
Build mine (-6 BP) in 6-5 (Silver Mine) +2 BP and Economy per turn.
Build farm (-1 BP) in 6-5
Settlement (New Westcrown)
Mill in Thorpe
House in Thorpe
Decided not to build house
Build Smithy = =6 BP
No Army = 0 BP
Collect Taxes = Roll of 3 net +10 Build Points.
Remaining BP = 41
Event Phase - None.
Carrying forward the army conversation
For roleplay reasons I would like to explore the rough guide I emailed earlier for breeding/training/raising lions as the basis of a "standing" army. I can clean up a bit more and re-post if needed.
For reality, I would think infrastructure buildings (watch towers/garrisons etc..) Population (right now we only have 750 residents) and hex span of control should play a role in the size of an army that can be raised.
The castle option early would account of a lot of the infrastructure needs.
If we want to "equip" the units having the smithy and stable will also be necessary.
Having an army defeated carries serious negatives. Would recommend having one with double digit hit points so it does not get one shot killed on turn one.
Still need some clarity as to which side of the army size threshold we are using. ie is an army of 75 units considered small or medium.
Armies:
I have done some exhaustive research on creating armies. The key rule is in a footnote to the Table: Improvement Edicts which is a crappy place to put it, but all the forums agree that is the rule.
"Instead of creating a new settlement, your kingdom may create a new army unit (see Mass Combat), expand or equip an existing army unit, or bring an existing army unit back to full strength."
It is poorly worded as well, because a Unit is one person in an army. I think they mean one army of a single type of units. Here are some threads to review.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qvnf?Recruiting-Armies#2
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rdky?Questions-on-rules-for-mass-combat-and#2
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s8g5?Kingmaker-Recruiting-Armies-Helping-Rooki es#3
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sx48?How-much-to-raise-an-army
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pu54?Ultimate-Campaign-Mass-Combat-Units
The table Army Sizes dictates the size of an army and related CR.
Table: Army Sizes
Army Size Number of Units ACR
Fine = 1 units = CR of individual creature –8
Diminutive = 10 units = CR of individual creature –6
Tiny = 25 units = CR of individual creature –4
Small = 50 units = CR of individual creature –2
Medium = 100 units = CR of individual creature
Large = 200 units = CR of individual creature +2
Huge = 500 units = CR of individual creature +4
Gargantuan = 1,000 units = CR of individual creature +6
Colossal = 2,000 units = CR of individual creature +8
All the above said, there are two products by Legendary Games Products Ultimate Battle and Ultimate War. If players recommend, I will consider including those rules as I think this particular group would enjoy making mass combat rules a bit more robust.
Looking ahead to potential issues with travel time and time in the capital I pulled some info and have a few questions.
What is the travel speed bonus for hexes with roads?
With highways?
Movement tables show:
Walking 20' move covers 16 miles a day
Walking 30' move covers 24 miles a day
Horse carrying a load 28 miles a day
Horseshoes of Speed ($1500 crafted gp) increase movement by 38% , so.. 38/39 miles a day then?
With the adjacent lake and river system, I was somewhat intrigued by water travel.
Water vessels marked "sailed and rowed" have daily travel distances between 60-96 miles a day.
The folding boat now has my eye (3600 crafted gp).
Would it also allow the faster water travel rate through marsh and forest hexes that contain rivers?
I tried to check out flying via magic items and/or mounts but did not come across anything feasible between cost/feats/role play etc... Happy for others to chime in an idea.
Dox's 1st teleport style spell (Transport Via Plant) does not become available until 11th level.
When Dox gets Wild Shape he can travel 64 miles as an eagle (once able to be in wild shape form 8 hours a day) 80 miles as an air elemental.
There is actually a table for movement for the module that controls, but it is designed for hexes with no roads:
Travelling: Time to Enter, Exit or Cross a hex that has not been explored.
Speed---Plains---Other Terrains
15'------11 hours-----16 hours
20'------8 hours------12 hours
30'------5 hours------8 hours
40'------4 hours------6 hours
50'------3 hours------5 hours
Exploring (Time to explore 1 Hex)
Speed---Plains---Forest/Hill---Mountain/Swamp
15'------3 days-----4 days------5 days
20'------2 days-----3 days------4 days
30'------1 day------2 days------3 days
40'------1 day------1 day-------2 days
50'------1 day------1 day-------1 day
This conflicts with the Overland travel rules. I am ruling that once a hex is explored, the overland travel rules apply. If it is unexplored, the unknown terrain and potential danger make the amove rules apply.
Overland travel rules:
15' = 12 miles per day.
20' = 16 miles per day.
30' = 24 miles per day.
40' = 32 miles per day.
If there is a highway you get full movement for all terrains except Mountains. Mountains are 3/4 movement.
If there is a road, Forest, Moor, and Plains give full movement. Hills, Jungle, Mountains, Swamp, and Tundra are 3/4 movement. Desert is half movement for roads.
If the Hex is explored but has no roads: Moors, Tundra, and Plains are 3/4 movement. Desert, Forest, Hills, Mountains, and Swamp are 1/2 movement.
Examples for two days travel:
So for plains at 30', if it is unexplored, it will take 10 hours to cross, 5 Entry and 5 crossing. Then 5 to enter then next hex and 5 to cross. That is 20 hours to travel 24 miles, or two adventuring days to travel across an unexplored plains hex.
For explored plains with no roads at 30', it is 24 miles a day x3/4 or 18 miles a day. That means you can travel across three explored plains 12-mile hexes without a road over two days.
If there was a road, at 30' you can cross plains, moors, or forests at full 24 miles a day movement. That means you will cross four such hexes with roads in two days.
I haven't had a chance to get into the Army/Mass Combat rules. But a couple things:
1) I have no familiarity with Ultimate Battle/War. Can't say if it would be any good or not.
2) Are there rules for handling mass combat in the Kingmaker AP? Not being sure how important mass combat is to the course of the AP, the easiest thing to do might be to stick with that.
As time permits I'll look over the links Patrick sent and the rules in general.
I'm not gonna be there next week, so might miss out on some rules decisions re: mass combat. I'll just flag my concern that the kingdom building economy seems to be balanced re: kingdom expansion(assuming you fix the mage tower issue, etc). It will be important to consider how easily that economy could be broken depending on how the poorly written mass combat rules are interpreted and how the gaps in the rules are filled in.
We are already doing a lot of rules learning with the Kingdom Building. How core is Mass Combat to the adventure path? I suppose I second Nate's suggestion that we focus on the AP's rulings if that is the path of least resistance.
I've read through the links Patrick posted. One that jumped out is that it doesn't make sense, economically, to raise an army for the first few years of a settlement, as a small army is pretty useless yet still expensive, so there's that. This makes sense, as any army that could be handled by an army we could afford at this stage, we could probably face as PCs(which is basically what we did with the Stag Lord).
Here's a pretty deep dive into Mass Combat rules separate from Kingdom Building: http://podbay.fm/show/932683205/e/1534464505?autostart=1
The building tab of the Rasdovia Kingdom Sheet has Econ/BP metrics, Total/BP metric, etc that can be put in order from highest to lowest.
I adjusted the Castle cost to be 50% of usual cost so it shows up correctly. It's notable that despite this discount, it's not in the top 10 for any category, including the total category.
Mass Combat exists within the module, but we will use the rules from the Ultimate Campaign/SRD. It is simplistic and CR based. The other Ultimate books by Legendary Games were mentioned was because the it sounded like people might be interested in more detailed approach. Either way, we can likely table the decision for a bit.
I brought the army thing up last session to make certain that the kingdom was building organically and not in a meta-game fashion based on the comments I made about not worrying about it for a year. I probably swung the pendulum too far in the other direction last session.
Realistically, the kingdom won't be ready to support an army for a while and the borders are strong enough to allow a ruling council to decide not to invest in an army short-term if they are willing to take that risk, that was the original point I was making. However, I did not want to have an OOC statement by the GM create a meta-gaming situation where no army is built until month 11 when a huge army is built suddenly because the GM said nothing would happen for the first year.
Early rulings:
You can create, heal, equip, or upgrade one unit per turn instead of building a settlement. In this case (only) unit means an army grouping of one creature type. So you could build one army of archers, one army of mounted lions, one army of swordmen. When you build the unit you set the levels and parameters, including initial equipment as you can afford at that time.
If you want to upgrade the army/unit that takes the turn. If you want to further equip the army unit, that takes the turn. You have to have the appropriate buildings to create/equip the army at the time you creating/equip them.
So if you want an army of archers and an army of lion riders, that is two turns at least of production time.
That all sounds fair. FWIW, I did go ahead and order Ultimate Battle and Ultimate War. I plan to read them over and see if it makes sense. If we have a bit of time before mass combat actually start, we could consider using them. Otherwise what's in Ultimate Campaign works.
I wish the rules had been clearer about Army Building vs. Settlements. I still don't get why they would make Army Building a separate action from Settlement building if they take the same "slot". That said it is clear they wanted to limit the amount of Army building (and enhancing, etc.) a Kingdom can do in a turn. Notably, even a Kingdom of 50 hexes can only build one Settlement or Army (again, including enhancements) per turn. A size 100 Kingdom can only do 2. Not sure we'll ever be that big. This limit (IMO) makes waiting until the last minute to build an Army of substance rather risky.
Given that we don't know when we could be attacked, starting up an Army of some sort should happen sooner rather than later. Dox has a specific interest in a Lion-based troop, so I say we start with that. Nothing too big yet, but equipped and capable as turns allow. I recognize this will siphon off a bit of BP's, but my sense is we can be successful as a Kingdom and not be maximally efficient.
On a related note (and picking up where we left off last session), Anastasia will start agitating for some more character-appropriate buildings in town. I'd encourage everyone to think about buildings (and other Kingdom advances) from their PC's viewpoint. To this point some key early structures were needed, but we can branch out a bit. Building the Castle would be high on her list. While using it's construction to stave off sudden unrest has merit, it is difficult (from a PC POV) to see where such unrest could possibly come from. Plus, we picked this site in part because of the ruined fort. So it is right near by and likely a bit of an eye-sore. Turning it into a integral piece of town (and therefore a sign of Civilization progressing) would be key for Anastasia. Notably, this also makes the Noble Villa and Town Hall discounted (half-cost), both buildings she'd also like to see made. Lastly, Anastasia would want a Shrine. She's not looking to make a Theocracy but some clear sign of Abadar (and the collective deities of Cheliax) would be a priority.
So I've now reviewed the Ultimate Campaign Mass Combat rules. I think I mostly have it but do have a few thoughts/questions.
*Morale: I *think* units have a Morale of Zero, modified only by the Commander. I'm basing this on an off-hand comment on pg 247 under Sample Armies, but I didn't find any other reference regarding how morale is determined.
*Commanders: Related to the above point, Commanders become pretty important, kind of like additional leadership positions. So recruiting these would become a thing too. Because of the length of time a Commander needs to be "active" with a unit (3 days a week), I'm thinking it would not be possible under most circumstances for a PC to be a Commander and still hold down a Kingdom Leadership position, but maybe I'm wrong.
*Army Tactic-Withdrawal: This is rather confusingly written. Not sure I really get it. Recommend nailing this down to everyone's clarity ahead of time, as the time when such checks would be made would be high drama already.
*Ranged Weapons: Because each "round" of mass combat includes both a Ranged and Melee phase, armies that have ranged and melee weapon capabilities effectively attack twice in a round. Adding ranged weapons to an army costs 2 BP and increases consumption by 1, but is likely worth it.
*Defeated Army: If a Kingdom's army is defeated in battle (p.239) the Kingdom takes a penalty to Econ/Loyalty/Stability with the size of the penalty related to the army's size. But it never says how long this lasts. I can't imagine this would be permanent. Even if the rules meant it to be permanent, this just seems wrong.
*Kingdom Loyalty Score: This is referenced in a few places in the mass combat rules. Not sure how critical the checks are, but the importance of Loyalty to mass combat may mean we need to prioritize it more.
*Optional Mass Combat Rules - Reserve Army: p.246 lists these. I'm ambivalent about most of them, but do recommend using the Reserve Army rules. These allow an army to be maintained at a reduced cost in a settlement only, and the settlement must have specific buildings to do it. I like the verisimilitude of this; it fits how actual military units operate (i.e. less cost in garrison than when deployed).
*Ultimate War/Battle: Not sure how different these are, will review in the future. But for the time being I feel like I could reasonably run a mass combat using the Ultimate Campaign rules.
RE: Ranged
"Resolving the battle consists of three phases in which the commanders decide on tactics, the armies make ranged attacks (if any), and the armies then close to melee range. They then remain in melee until one side flees or is destroyed."
and "2. Ranged Phase: Any army with the ability to make ranged attacks may make one attack against an enemy army. This phase typically lasts for 1 round (one attack) as the two armies use ranged attacks while they advance to melee range, and then use melee attacks thereafter. The battlefield’s shape and other conditions can extend this duration. If both armies have ranged attacks, they may choose to stay at range and never approach each other for melee (at least until they run out of ammunition, though the Consumption cost of maintaining an army generally means the army is capable of many shots before this happens). Armies without ranged capability can’t attack during this phase, but may still rush forward."
I believe this means there is usually only one round of ranged attacks, unless both armies choose not to close to melee.