All, I've ran a few turns of Kingdom building. May or may not do more, but have come away with an impression of how it works. My takeaways:
*The system sort of works like tabletop Civilization, except that each turn is a month and things only get built if you pay for them. Also, claiming territory is a 2-step process: you explore a hex, then you came claim it. Claiming territory costs cash ("Build Points"). Cities are called Settlements and have their own map.
*Leadership positions are a unique feature of the Pathfinder Kingdom building system. There are 13+ such positions, but 10 of them create a penalty if not filled. PC's are of course the first choice to fill these, and how well you help the Kingdom is based on one of your stats. It will be important for the PC's to be very good in one key stat. Also, it is critical to have someone, anyone in each of these 10 positions bc the vacancy penalty is quite stiff.
*Kingdoms have three key stats, Stability, Economy and Loyalty. Of these, Loyalty is substantially less important. Stability checks were about a 50/50 in my simulation and you do them a lot. Economy deals with collecting taxes for Build Points, which is your life blood.
*The overall process of building out a Kingdom is challenging, I wanted to build a lot faster than my Stability checks and Build Points would allow. I followed the guidelines from Ultimate Campaign and started with 50 Build Points and a House+Inn on the Hex I first claimed as the Kingdom. The Build Points went fast.
*The Kingdom Builder program from DaddyDM is very helpful for the map but the Turn Wizard is only so-so. It does have some functionality but also some glitches: for example, the taxes collection turn has you make a check you don't actually need to do. Still, the program is a plus.
*Without lots of competent (i.e. high key stat) people in leadership roles, the Kingdom Building endeavor could get really swing-y. A stretch of bad roles (which we are collectively very capable of) could just about ruin things in the first 10 turns. A stretch of great roles can overcome a lot, on the other hand.
*The system does allow depositing and withdrawing money from the treasury (1Build Point=4000gp's). Withdrawing is done at half value though, and I was desperate for Build Points. Depositing gold for Build Points would get very, very expensive.
Anyway, think those are the main take-aways. We'll all definitely want to review the rules again before we actually get to the Kingdom Building phase of the AP.
Rage away
Let there be light!
As I have experimented with Dynamic Lighting I have fixed our situation a bit. The way I had you travelling would have worked well if you were in a cloud type spell and could only see 5'. However, you are actually in "dim light" due to the moon and stars.
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch." https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/vision-and-light/
I have adjusted the tokens and you can now see better. Bannigan will also notice that he can see clearly as if there is no dim light due to his low light vision.
Enjoy being able to see again.
Very cool, good fix. It does raise a couple (currently unimportant) questions: 1) could one sneak in dim light vs a creature with darkvision? 2) on a cloudy night what would vision be like for non-darkvision folks?
1) Absent other circumstances, the creature with darkvision would be considered to have normal line-of-sight to the sneaking individual with no concealment from the dimness. Thus, you would be considered observed for purposes of the stealth skill.
As an aside, the reading of the stealth skill under Being Observed does a pretty good job of describing when you can and cannot use stealth. Notably, my reading is that if someone can actively hear you or smell you you will likely count as observed for purposes of stealth. Sneaking against creatures with scent will generally be difficult.
2) It depends... in the woods on a cloudy night on a new moon, you are probably in darkness not dim light. The question is whether there is enough ambient light to make the lighting "dimly lit" instead of "dark." That will be on a case by case basis. In this case, I am saying the lighting is dim, not dark - thus the adjustment to our
All,
I hope you don't mind me closing out the combat, but the bear was looking to get out and I didn't see anyone directly engaging it to keep it there. I do think that this sets up a rich opportunity to role-play in the off-week about how that combat worked out and how to play things out in the future.
Secondly, please advance your characters to second level. I do intend to use XP rather than "storyline" to level up because we are in such as Sandbox, but being first level for a long period of time is a very vulnerable place to be. So GM Perogative - level up.
Additionally, as you level up your characters, if you wish to make minor adjustments to your first level skill investments I am fine with retro-fitting that as I think we've developed the characters backgrounds and personas significantly. This is not a total rebuild, but I think we now have a better idea of both who the characters are and what the campaign will be about. Again, GM perogative.
Appreciate the clemency, GM!
I fully object to the requirement to level up however. Troy agreed with me and said he'll even just refuse to do it. I'm not so bold.
Seriously though, appreciate the opportunity to tweak. I don't see anything right off the bat I'll change with Anastasia but good to know the offer is there.
@Bannigan: Is having ranks in Know: Nobility something you see Vissannica continuing? I have plenty of other things for Anastasia to spend skill points on, so I'll probably stop getting ranks in it if she does. Clerics get so few skill points.....
After careful thinking, I guess I can level up, you know "for the good of the party". :)
Thanks for the heads up GM and the leniency in allowing us some tweaking. That healing wand can't come soon enough though, especially if you continue to roll like that last encounter!
Appreciate the clemency, GM!
@Bannigan: Is having ranks in Know: Nobility something you see Vissannica continuing? I have plenty of other things for Anastasia to spend skill points on, so I'll probably stop getting ranks in it if she does. Clerics get so few skill points.....
@Anastasia No plans to keep learning knowledge noble. That was a nod towards her background. Gonna pivot away from nobles and planes towards more practical knowledge - arcana and dungeoneering.
Also @Patrick - thanks for pointing out prestidigitation's usefulness for softening the rigors of rough travel. It can clean clothes, as well as flavor, warm, or chill meals.
As far as buying things goes - can we still add to the last order that we made before we left, assuming we are only using funds we had at that time?
If so, I would want to order a light warhorse with leather barding
The barding would have to be ordered but Dox can train the current mount during down time or along the way if we use a variant of partial day crafting rules. It does not give it armor proficiency but leather barding gives no noticeable minuses. From what I read on armor proficiency they assume a warhorse has it in place of one of the default feats for horses.
The order we placed when last at Olegs was for a wand of CLW and 2 vials anti-toxin.
Under Handle Animal - "You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check."
The barding would have to be ordered but Dox can train the current mount during down time or along the way if we use a variant of partial day crafting rules. It does not give it armor proficiency but leather barding gives no noticeable minuses. From what I read on armor proficiency they assume a warhorse has it in place of one of the default feats for horses.
The order we placed when last at Olegs was for a wand of CLW and 2 vials anti-toxin.
Under Handle Animal - "You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check."
As long as the mounts are with the party (not underground for instance) there is enough downtime during the day to count the weeks for training for this purpose.
As far as buying things goes - can we still add to the last order that we made before we left, assuming we are only using funds we had at that time?
If so, I would want to order a light warhorse with leather barding
You cannot retroactively change the order. You have to wait until you get back to Oleg and then the one week will start on the new order.
After healing from the bear encounter, we proceed Southeast. We come across the aftermath of a battle between Mites and Kobolds. We finally come across a huge sycamore tree standing about 200 feet tall. We search the base of the tree and find a way down. We proceed to travel down the roots by crawling.
We come to the end of the tunnel and encounter two Mites. We take them down in quick succession. Continuing on, we get swarmed by other Mites and a giant centipedes. We triumph over that battle too! Spurred on by our successes, we come out another tunnel and face a tough group of ticks and their riders. Z almost goes down, but the tide unexpectedly turns our way and we again defeat the enemy!
RE: Spell combat + spellstrike use in the last battle. Reading the forums, what I did was correct but also risky. Had I missed with the shocking grasp the third time, I would have lost the spell. It is possible for a Magus to hold a charge for a touch attack, and essentially try to discharge two touch attacks in one round using spell combat + spellstrike and taking my "normal" attack first before casting the touch spell, but if I miss the first attack, that held charge gets dissipated by the second spell, and I can't abort after I've called spell combat and taken the -2 to my first attack.
RE: Spell combat + spellstrike use in the last battle. Reading the forums, what I did was correct but also risky. Had I missed with the shocking grasp the third time, I would have lost the spell. It is possible for a Magus to hold a charge for a touch attack, and essentially try to discharge two touch attacks in one round using spell combat + spellstrike and taking my "normal" attack first before casting the touch spell, but if I miss the first attack, that held charge gets dissipated by the second spell, and I can't abort after I've called spell combat and taken the -2 to my first attack.
Interesting. It is probably more useful for a missed attack, as you did, than as a viable tactic - especially at low levesl when spells are more valuable.
Please do call all the abilities you are using in advance of making rolls. It can be complex with a Magus, and talking through the acts before roling will help.
Hey Patrick,
Can you speak to magic item purchase capacities for our 7 day round trip buy orders?
The house rules mention settlement limits, but I'm not sure what the limit is for the settlement we are shipping to and out of.
Hey Patrick,
Can you speak to magic item purchase capacities for our 7 day round trip buy orders?
The house rules mention settlement limits, but I'm not sure what the limit is for the settlement we are shipping to and out of.
Oleg can special order from Restov which is a large city, meaning items of 8,000 gp and less are readily available. For large purchases you have to put up funds up front. As commerce grows in the region you could expect Oleg's personal wares and access to more readily available goods to grow.
Accompanying the merchant caravan back to Oleg's from Restov is a certain half-elf Ranger by the name of El-ion.
El-ian is a half-elf loyal to House Thrune. Born a bastard son of an elven slave and a human master, El-ian was sold off as a slave once he was born, never knowing his biological parents.
He was purchased by a minor noble of the House Thrune to be a field slave. A fair amount of his masters land was covered by forests which constantly needed maintenance, protection and exploration. El-ian fell in love with this new task and often thought how wonderful the forest would be if only the chaotic nature of it could be contained somehow. One of the masters son’s was a Ranger and saw the inherent talent in El-ion and so took him under his wing teaching him the ways of a Ranger.
As with many areas of Cheliax, there happens to be a fair amount of pillaging going on from marauding clans of goblins and hobgoblins. So, El-ion was assigned to a group to deal with these pests in as brutal a manner as possible. El-ion quickly became proficient in hunting down and dealing with these creatures and his loyalty to House Thrune was sealed.
After a very successful hunt where he played a prominent role and his continual display of loyalty, the Master’s son came to El-ion and indoctrinated him in an amazing ritual on being a Thrune Loyal Agent.
He was then directed to accompany a small merchant caravan that is on its way to deliver some goods to Oleg’s trading post for a group of adventurers that were tasked with spreading the influence and borders of Cheliax. He was told to assist with this group in their objectives as best he could and to report on their progress and any other ‘insights’ that he comes across while accompanying them.
El-ion is a shy character. Being a half-elf in a land where they are disdained is tough enough. Being a slave in such a land is more often brutal even by the other slaves. Similar to Kalthon, being beaten a fair amount during his growing years have left some permanent scarring and facial disfigurements on his person and ingrained an instinctive mistrust of his suroundings. This skill to be so quick to react has turned into a favorable trait for his skills as a ranger. The oppotunity he was given to leave the mundane field work to become a ranger instilled a long lasting loyalty to House Thrune. His bonding with his fellow crew in dealing with the Goblinoids provided him with a sense of belonging that he never had. So, when he was asked to become a Thrune Loyal Agent, he could barely hold back the tears of honor.
He looks forward to meeting another band of characters loyal to Thrune and wishing to bring the light of civilization to the wilderness. He is even more excited about meeting the two elven characters, having never met one before. Perhaps he will be able to have the similar bond of friendship that he is leaving behind. He hopes he only has to report good news back to his master.
As long as the mounts are with the party (not underground for instance) there is enough downtime during the day to count the weeks for training for this purpose.The barding would have to be ordered but Dox can train the current mount during down time or along the way if we use a variant of partial day crafting rules. It does not give it armor proficiency but leather barding gives no noticeable minuses. From what I read on armor proficiency they assume a warhorse has it in place of one of the default feats for horses.
The order we placed when last at Olegs was for a wand of CLW and 2 vials anti-toxin.
Under Handle Animal - "You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check."
I think we may be right around 3 weeks of training with the horses? I'm not sure. Does Dox have to roll the handle animal, or can he take 20?
Arguing and Scent.
All,
I'm not sure where the difference in style between Bannigan and I is leading to such different results, but it seems that the arguing with the GM has increased greatly since I have taken back over. It wasn't just last night and it seems to be increasing over time so I wanted to address it now.
I do want people to speak up when I may have a rule wrong, because we want to get things right - however, we need to get back to the method that seemed to work well in Bannigan's campaign that we go with the initial ruling and research offline. I think that helps keep things fun and makes the most fun. Also, I have said that I may stray from the rules this campaign for sake of realism/story. That may happen both in favor of the players or against.
Now, specifically regarding Scent and tracking by scent, here are the rules:
SCENT
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
A creature with the Survival skill and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Survival check to find or follow a track. A creature with the scent ability can attempt to follow tracks using Survival untrained. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill in regards to tracking.
Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.
False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.
SURVIVAL (Follow Tracks)
To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower.
Alternatively, you can use the Perception skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature’s passage using the same DCs, but you can’t use Perception to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.
You move at half your normal speed while following tracks (or at your normal speed with a –5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a –20 penalty on the check). The DC depends on the surface and the prevailing conditions, as given on table.
Action A Survival check made to find tracks is at least a full-round action, and it may take even longer.
Applying to this situation:
We are dealing with a creature with animal intelligence who I don't believe ever had line of sight with the Shaman. I gave the benefit of the doubt that Dox could somehow specify which of the nine kobold scents in that area he wanted tracked.
So first, Battle Cat had to take a move action to move within 30' of the shaman. Then he would have to take a move action to determine the general direction of the kobold. Such an action would need to be taken every time the kobold's direction may have shifted - basically every potential fork in the road. So the Kobold had a single move, turned invisible and at that point Battle Cat would be 30' away with the general direction known. Then the kobold gets to move another 60'.
Battle Cat could then begin tracking which is (at least) a full round action to begin. The kobold moves another 60'
Battle Cat can then start tracking. Tracking doesn't allow for double moves, you can move half of your movement in a round and track without penalty. The DC to follow the scent would be 10 and Battlecat could take 10 untrained and do this. If he wanted to move 40' in a round he would need take a DC 5 penalty, so unless he has a large wisdom bonus he would be rolling with a chance. If he wanted to move 80' in a round he would have a -20 to the check. This means that given optimal conditions, Battle Cat would have to take a -20 per round to pursue an invisible creature via scent if he wants to move 80' in the round. Otherwise the kobold would be gaining 20' per round.
However, Battle Cat was not in optimal conditions. He was in darkness. Giving him the benefit of the doubt following the scent he may not need to run into walls and such, because he is following the trial the kobold took. However, even "limited visibility" cuts movement in half. So tracking at no penalty would allow him to move 10' per round, -5 DC for 20' per round, and -20 DC for 40' per round.
As a side note, battle cat was likely very outmatched by a 5th level sorcerer with a wand of magic missiles anyhow. Eventually Battle Cat will be a powerful combatant but if he had been able to pursue here and ended up fighting the shaman 1 on 1 it likely would have gone as poorly as it did when he ran off after the bear.
2 Small Creatures to a Square?
Bannigan has pointed out that he doesn't believe the Pathfinder rules support having two allied small creatures sharing a square. I think this was a legacy rule from 3.0/3.5 that we carried over with us, but I couldn't find any justification for it under Pathfinder.
I kind of like the idea as small creatures are fairly disadvantaged already, and I know player characters have taken advantage of the ruling in the past. But unless others want to keep the old rule as a house rule, I will bow to the rules as they are and we will have those poor little kobolds stand all alone in the big 5' squares...
I think we may be right around 3 weeks of training with the horses? I'm not sure. Does Dox have to roll the handle animal, or can he take 20?As long as the mounts are with the party (not underground for instance) there is enough downtime during the day to count the weeks for training for this purpose.The barding would have to be ordered but Dox can train the current mount during down time or along the way if we use a variant of partial day crafting rules. It does not give it armor proficiency but leather barding gives no noticeable minuses. From what I read on armor proficiency they assume a warhorse has it in place of one of the default feats for horses.
The order we placed when last at Olegs was for a wand of CLW and 2 vials anti-toxin.
Under Handle Animal - "You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check."
We are closer to four weeks total since you arrived in the Stolen Lands. He can take 10, not 20. Taking 20 can only be used on skills that take one action to do with the idea that they will be done repeatedly until successful. That clearly doesn't apply here.
I would think you could take 20 on any skill that allows unlimited re-tries with no penalty for failure.
"Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20."
Under Handle Animal:
Retry?
Yes, except for rearing an animal.
The bigger issue as to why not to take 20 is that it takes 20 times as long....60 weeks....Not doing it.
"Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take."
If there is a component or gp cost that is 20 times higher as well.
I can roll for it start of next session, if it fails....will roll again 3 weeks after.
Arguing and Scent.
All,
I'm not sure where the difference in style between Bannigan and I is leading to such different results, but it seems that the arguing with the GM has increased greatly since I have taken back over. It wasn't just last night and it seems to be increasing over time so I wanted to address it now.
I do want people to speak up when I may have a rule wrong, because we want to get things right - however, we need to get back to the method that seemed to work well in Bannigan's campaign that we go with the initial ruling and research offline. I think that helps keep things fun and makes the most fun. Also, I have said that I may stray from the rules this campaign for sake of realism/story. That may happen both in favor of the players or against.
Now, specifically regarding Scent and tracking by scent, here are the rules:
SCENT
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
A creature with the Survival skill and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Survival check to find or follow a track. A creature with the scent ability can attempt to follow tracks using Survival untrained. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number...
My two cents as a former DM around arguments: I encourage DMs to not defend decisions in the moment, but make the call, and then offer appeal offline.
As a player now, I can get caught up in "the game of argument" if a defense is posed and I feel like I have a sound counterargument, particularly if it might be setting precedent if I don't speak up in the moment. I will do better to resist this, and know that if I wish I can speak up out of session to retroactively argue precedent as needed.
In this case, I think the DM is right that the Sorcerer would have likely been able to escape. That being said, some of the points the DM is making I could argue with, because Vissannica and Zorthalus would have followed Battlecat, and Vissannica might have kept up with battlecat(as she would not have to spend actions on scent/tracking and had light via dancing lights). But arguing that further just isn't worth the distraction to the game flow, when the game moves on just fine with the DM's ruling. At best it would have lead to us seeing a secret door close(and likely not even that, invis is just a great spell).
Essentially, we all need to trust that our DM is trying to make the game as fun as possible while following the rules, and (IMHO) the DM should not defend decisions unless he wants to hash it out in the moment.
If a PC has a strong issue with a call due to precedence setting, that can be addressed after the session offline here.
I would think you could take 20 on any skill that allows unlimited re-tries with no penalty for failure.
"Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20."
Under Handle Animal:
Retry?
Yes, except for rearing an animal.The bigger issue as to why not to take 20 is that it takes 20 times as long....60 weeks....Not doing it.
"Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take."
If there is a component or gp cost that is 20 times higher as well.
I can roll for it start of next session, if it fails....will roll again 3 weeks after.
Yeah, we are basically saying the same thing. When I was referring to one action I was referring to the 20 times as long. If things take hours, days, or weeks then taking 20 really isn't an option. When things take an action it is much more reasonable. A minute might work sometimes.
Watch Schedule
1) Vissanica/Zorthalus
2) Dox/Battlecat
3) Anastasia/El-Ion
Hope you all enjoyed the Harrowing episode. Thought I would put this as a look behind the curtain as to how it was done. I have a script I created for a PbP character I had who was a Harrower and would frequently perform Harrowings in RP settings. I cribbed the one for the session last night from one that he had done before.
The results are posted below the script.
Tapestry:
C1 C4 C7
C2 C5 C8
C3 C6 C9
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
I then use this listing to determine the cards: http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_harrow_cards
I got two uprisings so I re-roll one:
1=Hammers, 2=Keys, 3=Shields, 4=Books, 5=Stars, 6=Crowns
1=LG, 2=NG, 3=CG, 4=LN, 5=N, 6=CN, 7=LE, 8=NE, 9=CE
1=Upright, 2=Inverted
So the Tapestry is:
Trumpet Upright-----Inquisitor Inverted-----Courtesan Inverted
Uprising Upright-----Forge Inverted-----Empty Throne Inverted
Mute Hag Inverted-----The Mountain Main Inverted----The Paladin Inverted
Then I just look at the card descriptions from the Harrower Handbook and tell the story according the the positions outlined in the Tapestry. I try to shape it to the characters and circumstances a bit. Makes for interesting RP fun.
Agreed, this was very cool. Anastasia will interpret it in her own way (she's wise but can get tunnel vision sometimes). She sees it at least for now as something of a revealed prophesy.
Yeah, very cool weaving in the Harrowing!
I have a question: Vissannica is considering a plan to purchase or perhaps enlist the aid of that potion maker we met and returned a potion to to make some poisoned alcohol for the Stag Lord's bandits, for when it comes time to take them on. Is this something that is realistic without an alchemist or poisoner in the party? Ingested poisons get used so rarely, even with an onset of a day this could be useful here. :)
It is definitely possible. Realism v RAW if Bokken does the poisoning of the alcohol and reseals the containers, I do not see any issue with the PC's handling/delivering the bottles so there would be no real risk of self-harm.
Hey Patrick,
First off, let me say that all of this should be read in a light tone. :) Text can be tough for tone, so just want to put that out there.
I’d like to raise the question of a non-magical larger than man-sized boar getting a surprise round (using stealth?) from ~20 feet in front of the party with clear line of sight. If there was some sort of hide in plain sight ability, then ignore the rest of this post, as that explains it.
It seems to me that the perception checks would have taken place when he came into line of sight at the latest (not counting the chance to smell or hear the boar), which would have been much further away or as he was rounding a corner from cover, thus likely without a direct charge angle. Action economy is really a big deal, particularly in the opening round, and had we not rolled particularly well, that opening charge might have had a bigger impact.
Also, we have a lion and horses with scent, which means there is a decent chance, unless there were prevailing winds from our back, that they all would have caught big ol’ boar scent at 60’ and potentially raised some issue? I don’t know, that’s your call I suppose, but something to consider.
+1 on Bannigan's post above; I don't think there should have been surprise at all. I purposely said nothing in session because of unknown circumstances and wanting to avoid in-game arguments. That said, it is very hard to imagine how a boar that fears little to nothing would not be audibly detectable quite a ways beforehand. This really seems to be a situation in which the boar appears and initiative is rolled.
I have not DMed in (literally) 30+ years. I do remember the frustration of the second guessing. There are a thousand reasons why we could have been caught flat footed. It was dosing downwind, stood up, saw us and attacked. There could have been a <20> roll and we were all unknowingly distracted by a sun spot. (I know that was not the case, just saying.)
I think that some light questioning is okay, but ultimately, we need to just go with the decision/situation and move on. A part of me enjoys the discussion and I often do research on it. I also realize that my brain is simply not wired for the intricacies of the rules and I defer to those in the party who do have that ability.
Those questions/discussions also distract from the fantasy and RP of the game. I have been watching a lot of World Cup and sometimes you don’t agree with the call, and play goes on. I would prefer we default to playing on.
That said, I also know that FIFA employs a review protocol when it effects the true outcome of the game. I recommend, unless there is an unrecoverable PC death or similar level of impact we do not challenge a DM ruling.
Bill, I appreciate the vote of confidence and the FIFA analogy, and I agree that in general, we will not be re-winding a situation unless there is something very major. However, to cut down on discussion during the sessions, I will always be willing to hash things out here in the forums.
So, should the Boar gotten a surprise action?
Under the rules, "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised."
Admittedly, I eyeballed it and made the determination based on the situation of the party traveling on horseback through the woods and entering a predator's domain that it it would be aware of you before you were aware of it, and it set an ambush.
What I thought about was: Generally, the party is going to be making some significant/out of place noise when you travel on horseback through the woods. The boar has a very good perception including skill focus perception, better than anyone in the party, and it would not be making lots of noise as a predator in its home turf. Thus it would perceived the party before the party perceived it, thus surprise.
I will also admit that were it a "wandering monster" I probably would have just rolled perceptions and pushed on without considering these things. However, this was a local legend of a predator and you were approaching its lair. I have stated that I am being less RAW this campaign, and the hostile woods as a "character" is a very, very significant angle in the story line. Kind of like the City of Ptolus was almost a character in that campaign. There may be times where judgment calls come from that point of view. Likewise, if there were a faerie dragon or pixie trying to agitate a 2nd level party that can't see invisible - I'm not going to make a bunch of roles for the minuscule chance that the +20 to stealth granted by invisibility combined with advantages of perfect flight fails to keep it hidden. Likewise, there could be odd magical or environmental effects that happen that aren't strictly defined in the rule book. We were considering fudging the rules to let Troy adopt the Kobold Sorcerer as a PC for a bit.
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However I am still a 'rules guy' at heart and the players being able to plan their characters based on consistently applied rules is important as well. I think the rules bear out the surprise as the boar would have been aware of (perceived you) well before you perceived it:
Perception:
The boar was actively hunting you once it detected you near its den and, while it is not the stealthiest animal, it is a predator that hunted you from downwind and hid in ambush. It has +12 perception and the party would be making a fair amount of noise from horseback, having conversations, metal clanking, etc. I gave that a DC 0 to hear you (Hear the details of a conversation). Favorable conditions (home turf) +2. DC 0 Taking 10 +12 +2 means it would perceive you at 240' away.
Your DC to hear it would start at around 10 (hear a creature walking) I don't have the characters in front of me but let's go with a +8 for perception from the foremost characters. Add in a -2 for unfavorable conditions. DC 10 taking 10 +8 -2 means you would have perceived it at 60'.
Differential 180' of perception.
That easily would give it time to get into position in its home turf.
Scent: The boar also has scent and would position itself downwind as a natural predator, meaning it has 60' scent perception and Battle Cat has 15'. Absent wind, Battle Cat is at the back of the party and the Boar would perceive Z and his horse before battle cat perceived the boar. Additionally, Battle Cat is an animal with animal intelligence. Battle Cat has scent, Dox does not (yet?). Your best "scent" case was that battle cat could get an action in the surprise round without Dox's intervention. My judgment would likely be that Battle Cat would stay by Dox absent a command to attack, though he would defend Dox if Dox was physically being attacked. That was not the case as the boar hit you from the front.
All that said, the perception rules work much better in a dungeon crawl scenario where line of sight is more defined and movement is measured in feet and not miles. Technically, we could have started a series of rounds of dice rolls from 300' away to see who knows what and how each group reacts. "You hear a rustling in the leaves in the distance... generally to the south..." and half the session is over before we close for combat.
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Conclusion:
I agree that technically speaking rolls might have been appropriate, but I think the rules would generally support my ad-hoc ruling. Plus it was much better for the story for the might Tuskgutter to be fierce within his domain.
As a side note, the rules for invisibility give a +20 to stealth when moving and a +40 to stealth when still. Should those same bonuses apply when someone is actively trying to be stealthy from a position where there is no line of sight/inability to see? I haven't found specific rules on it, but am inclined to think they should.
Thanks Patrick. Surprise round aside, how about the starting position for the surprise round? Do you think starting a surprise round 20' in front of the party and far from any cover or concealment is something we need to try to plan for? I remember that making sense for the trap door spider, but for a larger than mansized boar who is not particularly stealthy, it's harder to understand, even given all the factors you mention.
Does anyone have ranks in bluff or disguise? Could be useful against the stag lord for infiltration plan...
Anastasia has Bluff (+8), but not disguise.
Thanks Patrick. Surprise round aside, how about the starting position for the surprise round? Do you think starting a surprise round 20' in front of the party and far from any cover or concealment is something we need to try to plan for? I remember that making sense for the trap door spider, but for a larger than mansized boar who is not particularly stealthy, it's harder to understand, even given all the factors you mention.
The boar was not far from any cover. It was behind cover.
Please post any purchases/orders you make from Oleg.
If you want to set up a shrine to Abadar, Oleg has no issues with you designating a small space within the walls. There are listings of what it would cost to purchase religious items and/or art to adorn the shrine.
If you are purchasing something off the treasure sheet please post here so that we can avoid duplicate purchases.
If you want to have a planning session on the Stag Lord it might be best to do that in character via postings.
Thanks!
Anastasia will buy the items listed below to get a shrine going at Oleg's. She isn't looking to get a free-standing building and I don't expect these efforts to have any "hard" (i.e. +1 to this or that) effect on the game. Rather, the idea here is to have a place she (or other Abadarian priests) can hold service. Because she's Chelaxian, she also sets up the chapel with a few rather subtle nods to Asmodeus. The key word here is subtle...like DC25 Religion check to figure it out. She's balancing the desire to not piss off the locals with an interest in ensuring that Vissannica and the rest of the parrty feel at home as well.
An in-character flavor post will follow, but broadly Anastasia does 3 things during the week off the road:
1) Craft Scrolls. See below for cost in gold and time. About 6 hours a day
2) Evangelize. With the population growing and the economy taking care of itself at present, she turns her attention to converting the populace (permanents and transients) to the Abadarian faith. She's literally an evangelist, after all. She'll attempt this via a combination of speeches/sermons, talking with key folks one-on-one and through magical assistance (healing wounds, etc.). The goal is to have Abadar as the predominant faith. She'll work in a general reverence for all Lawful deities as well. Overall, about 4 hours a day.
3) Rest/Pampering. No amount of wilderness exploration is going to turn Anastasia into an outdoors aficionado. She spends 100gp's on luxury items to indulge in while recuperating from travels. About 14 hours a day (including copious sleep).
Buy
250gp’s “Portable” Altar
50gp’s Other Religious Accessories (vestments, incense, oil, etc.)
50gp’s 10 pounds of Powder Silver (to make Holy Water, Material Component)
100gp's Fine food/drink/bath salts/furnishings
Sell=Fly Scroll (187.5gp’s)
Scrolls to Scribe
*1st Lv (12.5gp’s and 2 hours to craft each) – 14 spells = 175gp’s and 28 hours
*2nd Lv (75gp’s and 2 hours to craft each) – 8 spells = 600gp’s and 16 hours
Could Vissannica get in the queue for 3 scribed scrolls - all 1st level?
Not only in the queue, but at the front of it. Will be the first 3 scrolls Anastasia makes after we head out. Creation rate for 1st and 2nd lv scrolls while adventuring is one per day. Set aside 37.5gp's and you're good.
Z sells his scale mail armor and buys half plate.
Vissannica will get in the scroll queue to get the scroll of expeditious retreat replaced.
By my calculations, all of last night's session's travels took 11 days in-game. The first three days would be spent scribing the scrolls Vissannica wanted. Then Dox is up next. Anastasia can scribe as many as 8 1st or 2nd Lv scrolls for him. Since Vissannica used her Exp Retreat scroll on the last adventuring day, she'll be up next to get that replaced assuming Dox doesn't want more than 8 spells scribed now.
Wanted to continue the discussion regarding when PC's rememorize spells and get per-day powers back. Traditionally we've said this occurs in the morning, after watches are complete, and IMO it should stay that way.
Per RAW Divine casters do pick a time of day to pray/meditate renew their spells, with the classic situation being good casters doing such in the morning and evil ones doing it at night. But basically the player picks a regular time of day and it remains fixed. Arcane casters can renew/rememorize spells any time they want, but only once per day. Since 3.5 D&D the time to rememorize spells (divine or arcane) is one hour. Other per-day abilities (like Bard song or Channeling) return each day, though we've never really clarified whether rest is needed or exactly when they are renewed.
I like the idea of everything, spells and abilities, renewing in the morning after the group breaks camp to head out the next day. This keeps it simple and clear, and fits with how I at least had thought about the process. After the last watch is done and everyone has had 8 hours of sleep (required to renew spells), the PC's are all up and everyone spends an hour "prepping" for the next day. For fighters and rogues and such, this is more RP than actually necessary, but practicing forms and whatnot fits. For casters this is prayer/re-memorization time. Then the PC's spend an hour or two breaking down camp, packing up and head out for the day.
If the party had a PC that for whom it really would make more sense to pray for spells at night (e.g. if Anastasia were a priestess of Norgorber or the ilk) then exceptions could be made. That PC could be said to pray for spells before going to bed and any were used on watch they would count towards the next day. In these cases I would also say they should get per-day powers back at the same time as spells. Decoupling when you get spells and per-day powers back is just asking for confusion.
As for being more at risk at night when you camp because of depleted resources...yeah, that's how it goes. Getting attacked at night while trying to sleep is a bigger challenge. It can also encourage folks not to nova out all their resources during the day.
I also would prefer simplicity here. Having to adjust the watch schedule each night based on who used what spells or powers seems like an added chore rather than more fun.
Wanted to continue the discussion regarding when PC's rememorize spells and get per-day powers back. Traditionally we've said this occurs in the morning, after watches are complete, and IMO it should stay that way.
Per RAW Divine casters do pick a time of day to pray/meditate renew their spells, with the classic situation being good casters doing such in the morning and evil ones doing it at night. But basically the player picks a regular time of day and it remains fixed. Arcane casters can renew/rememorize spells any time they want, but only once per day. Since 3.5 D&D the time to rememorize spells (divine or arcane) is one hour. Other per-day abilities (like Bard song or Channeling) return each day, though we've never really clarified whether rest is needed or exactly when they are renewed.
I like the idea of everything, spells and abilities, renewing in the morning after the group breaks camp to head out the next day. This keeps it simple and clear, and fits with how I at least had thought about the process. After the last watch is done and everyone has had 8 hours of sleep (required to renew spells), the PC's are all up and everyone spends an hour "prepping" for the next day. For fighters and rogues and such, this is more RP than actually necessary, but practicing forms and whatnot fits. For casters this is prayer/re-memorization time. Then the PC's spend an hour or two breaking down camp, packing up and head out for the day.
If the party had a PC that for whom it really would make more sense to pray for spells at night (e.g. if Anastasia were a priestess of Norgorber or the ilk) then exceptions could be made. That PC could be said to pray for spells before going to bed and any were used on watch they would count towards the next day. In these cases I would also say they should get per-day powers back at the same time as spells. Decoupling when you get spells and per-day powers back is just asking for confusion.
As for being more at risk at night when you camp because of depleted...
Alright, we will say in the morning is the time and it will be after the final watch regardless of when you take watch. This does mean that people are weakened during potential watch encounters - but two of the primary spell casters have spoken and I'm fine with that.