OK, first and formost: ALL ooc complaints about in game issue go here!
Secondly: no in game comments about how a character's actions are perceived are to be construed as a personal attack on the player.
Thirdly: Ryu, I don't think you can say no one here would realize you have an agenda related to your Order given your own attempts at 'spreading rumors' and your missing a portion of the character interaction with the rest of the group to go hareing off on your own quest. There are multiple PCs involved, and the AP does not center on you. Let a few of the other folks have the spotlight!
I hate waking up to fights, so I'm going to relax, review characters again to check on updates, and get back to the actual game.
As for the current set-up, I believe that the decision was to ask Ameiko for advice on how to handle the situation. Heading to the Garrison and Sheriff Hemlock first might have been better, but it's the PC's choice, not mine.
Everyone calm down!
Okay, and i'm back after a few days of craziness.
Wow. I'm not gonna comment on all the back-and-forth from Biter. Not only have I been too distracted to read all the posts thoroughly, but Biter isn't really all that engaged in the social interactions so far.
Yah... that's why. :)
i missed that... link me the post?
Ah. Um. Can I make a request? Using Cilyanka's avatar is more than a little confusing. Would you be amenable to changing the npc to someone else?
Maybe you could make a seperate id as NPC_Mai for this game using a different avatar. It does get a bit confusing.
You could even use Natara.
I' trying to get fully caught up. Here's my initial thought on the current discussion (even if I'm not directly involved):
I don't read other people's spoilers. But now i've gone back and looked at some of the ones in question.
Seems to me if Ryu is going to throw dice rolls intended to influence NPC's one way or the other (or the outcome that affects other PC's) -- and he does it in the presence of other players, the spoiler should be named in such a way that other players actually know that they should be attempting a counter-roll.
Ryu's spoiler is simply labeled "GM". So I glossed over it, assuming it was another one of the (many, many) spoilers he's been giving DM Ninja.
If Biter heard Ryu playing himself up at the expense of Biter's role -- especially in front of Friend Ameiko -- he'd be all kinds of in Ryu's face about it.
As it stands, I had no idea that a counter-roll was needed. The only hint I had was when Ninja put up the post that read "Ameiko seems impressed. Anyone else going to add to the tale? (Same rolls, either Diplomacy or Bluff)". Without checking the previous spoiler to know what the rolls were for (ya know, the spoiler that wasn't labeled for me), how am I supposed to know what rolls I should be trying?
I am no GM of the game, if you did read the spoiler you see I suggested a sense motive check or similar, I barely started playing on this site, this is either my first or second game I joined here. I had no intention to fool anyone (as in: players), and because I am not sure on mechanics yet I placed that in a spoiler, after all, Ninja could have just said what I planned to do is not possible or a no-go.
Also: Ryu didn't leave others out (except the scenes where he wasn't present yet due to the party splitting up, but that is obviously not intentional) just made his own parts sound better
Well, this mess also has its benefits: I was finally able to justify the hand-claw scene enough due to Ryu's anger to make it happen.
Biter and the rest of you, I do appologise for not being clear when I posted as Ameiko:
Quote self:
Ameiko spots Ryu. "Oh, you're back. How did it go?"
She heads back to the main area with him and greets the rest of the group. "Welcome back. So, are you folks about to earn a discount room with a good tale of adventure?"
She pulls up a chair, plops herself down, and waits for your tale.
End Quote:
I should have made it clearer I wanted all of you to describe the events on the island and asked for the rolls then. It wasn't supposed to be a counter roll, just a roll to impress Ameiko.
Note: Ameiko is known for giving discounted rooms to adventurers who tell a good tale. It's the problem of my being familiar with the character from running JR IRL. I assume everyone else is, too. And you know what they say about assuming anything. :(
As a side note:
Meanwhile: If Straehan failed the Sense Motive roll, he's perfectly entitled to draw any [erroneous?] conclusions he wants.
"I should have made it clearer I wanted all of you to describe the events on the island and asked for the rolls then. It wasn't supposed to be a counter roll, just a roll to impress Ameiko."
Wait, so you are saying what my/Ryu's plan was, to impress Ameiko, was actually your intention to happen too? o.O
Nice stuff to be shouted at for it then.
No need for such spoilers in discussion thread GM I think:
I think your Diplomacy adds are off. 4 stat + 1 rank +2 trait make 7 not 10.
It is a class skill, that gives plus 3 and makes it 10.
Strae: cool, good to know, he failed the Sense Motive then, good to have that cleared up, that means Ryu got undamaged out of this and only the gnome pulled off a rage :)
GM: I think we cleared it basically up that almost no one in this group ever played this campaign before, when people asked for story spoiler tags. I do understand it it can get messy if you play(ed) it already with others though.
Class skill. Of course. [facepalm] Sorry.
Also, for future reference, I don't expect the PCs to need to roll vs each other in social/non-combat situations. PCs are expected to notice stuff like that. If you feel that your character is trying to be subtle or conceal motives or actions vs the other PCs you can ask me in a spoiler to roll for them.
Now can we get back to the game?
Who's going to vist who?
Options:
Das
Sheriff Hemlock
Kaijitsu manor
Woujld you prefer it that way, or can we provide spoilers of our own if it's appropriate?
for example: If Biter decided to shade the truth about what was in the bottle, he could say, "Bottle is notting to have BItetr's piss! That is'ing ridiculous!"
It is -- in fact -- his piss. He's lying his tiny green ass off.
That works, too, Biter.
Well, I kinda did ask in spoiler on how to do the whole tale thing
I asked for people to join Ryu when he goes to the manor, and asked Ameiko to go to Das
also, the ashes: be there or not be there, this is here the question
There may be something there. Whether or not there are any actual ashes remining, bringing something back would help Ameiko, at least.
how much time to get there and back?
Maybe it would help if Ameiko herself comes to the island now, and sees the location of the pyre
edit: who is this Zantus?
Cilyanka supported what was necessary at the moment, she is very pragmatic. She was also okay with an immediate family member performing the service.
What she is oppossed to is moving what she perceives as a fringe religion in as a long term solution. She believes Pharsma should be invoked to cleanse the island and lay any remaining spirits to rest. This is one of the fundamental functions of the priesthood of Pharasma.
In any other area, Cilyanka would most likely not care about religion or dieties, but when it comes to laying the dead to rest, her beliefs are fairly stong. She has her own departed that she prays for and would expect nothing less for others.
Pharasma is the one judging the dead, but as far I can see from the wikis it doesn't mean the followers of all the other gods let Pharasma clerics do their funerals. Would be quite strange IMO.
Ryu: Father Abstalar Zantus is the head priest at the cathedral.
It's about noon. You'd need a boat. For this game's purpose high tides are Noon/Midnight and low tides are 6am/pm.
argh, first Zantus and now Dras, who is Dras?
translation please
argh, first Zantus and now Dras, who is Dras?
translation please
Das. She means Das.
Biter is saying neither of you need to watch out for the other. Ameiko wanted the two of you to keep each other safe.
:D
What NInja said was right. He was kind of playfully pointing out that Ryu didn't seem to want Biter's watching, and Biter certainly didn't need Ryu's watching... and that he had noticed her little play of asking each of us individually to watch after the other.
So the question is who's watching Ameiko, followed up by why does she get to have a stalker?
I added a link to a list of known, named Sandpoint residents.
Awww, I'm not a resident? Bummer :(
PCs are way to important to be on any common lists. ;P
I had a long, detailed post prepared to refute Ryu's comments, prove my points, and smack down the snipes. However, given Spiral's call for more civilized discourse, knowing my statements would get Ryu upset again, and based on Ryu's claim that he is new to the game... I'm going to restrict myself to answering specific claims Ryu refuses to drop.
Ryu you have asked several times for "proper ingame reasoning" regarding how Straehan could possibly divine your agenda and/or your character's duplicitous nature. Here are snippets of what you have directly stated, in some cases to Strae himself and/or in spoilers aimed at Strae who made the appropriate rolls.
1. Ryu said that 'someone' was already angling towards using the island for a Monastery and an Order and then tried to deflect the focus back to the mission. Given his level of knowledge about the details of the deal, it seems reasonable that he was involved in the negotiation at the very least. Later, Ryu confirms he is in the Order.
Reference
Reference
2. The mention of Brin's interest in the island caused Ryu to stop smiling and led to a spoiler to Strae that intimates he isn't happy about it. It was designed to be something for Strae to ponder. I assume because you wanted Strae and the others to be interested in your backstory.
Reference
3. You had Ryu laugh at Alkaid's joke about Strae's height, then try to cover it, and then a spoiler (that Strae rolled successfully against) to realise that Ryu wasn't sorry about getting caught snickering and that he enjoyed the attempt to humiliate the gnome. My take on that exchange, particularly since it happened right after the Brin/island thing is that you were painting Ryu as 'Mean-spirited/Malicious' and that it reinforced the previous bit about Ryu being displeased with Strae/Brin regarding the island.
Reference
4. Ryu further mentioned that cleaning the island was 'in motion' - presumably by this Order since no other possibility existed as no outside help had been called. He then tried to deflect the focus back to the mission for the second time. That establishes a pattern particularly given the next bit.
Reference
5. He insisted on the funeral pyre immediately for his relatives - citing familial rights. I don't think I need to quote this.
6. Ryu insisted on a pyre for the kid for his own safety - trying to usurp the father's familial rights. That basically showed Strae that Ryu is concerned with himself.
Reference
7. Ryu insists on heading to the Dragon, as opposed to Church as Strae suggested. His logic is Ameiko could legend lore his medallion - a secondary consideration having nothing to do with the child's remains. Admittedly this was an OOC comment but presumably Ryu had a similar IC pitch to convince the others. He proceeds to lead with family info and shrug off interest in the actual mission.
Reference
8. At the Dragon, he goes from talking about the adventure to bluff/bragging about it and then plans to next tell his father. Dealing with the remains and cursed item become a non-issue as far as he is concerned. This stands in direct opposition to his earlier attempts to deflect focus back to the mission. The logical conclusion Strae reaches is that Ryu has no interest in the mission and any claims regarding it are evasions away from his true interests. Ryu's continued comments both to Cilyanka before Strae blows up and Ryu's tirade afterwards pretty much prove that supposition is correct.
Personally, I think that says a lot about Ryu's character and motivations. He was all but bragging about his mysterious Order, where rolls were required Straehan made them, and the most damning evidence of all was in Ryu's conflicting behavior. To me this requires no roll, it is straight deduction based on a wealth of evidence. If Spiral thinks a roll is truly necessary, I'd think it would have to be some sort of 'Deduction' roll to piece the elements together - an INT check or the like against a flat DC. Since Ryu never once rolled a Bluff to disguise his interests, Sense Motive seems out of place.
Moreover, this doesn't pass what I'd call the Common Sense Check. I am not a genius. My character is presumably smarter than me. Without referencing the spoilers or even reviewing the game thread, I reached this conclusion by page 10 if not earlier. I don't think it is unreasonable that my character, being smarter than me, would see it to. If this were an IRL game and I, as my character, reached the conclusion from memory alone - I don't think many DMs would disallow it. That to me is a "proper ingame reason" for his actions and thoughts.
Now, if all that doesn't provide a basis for Straehan's knowledge... there isn't much else to say except to point you to Item #4 below.
As a new player, Ryu, allow me to give you a few recommendations.
1. There are two very important relationships in the game, particularly on this site... character-to-character and player-to-player. I'd suggest you read the boards for discussions regarding the 'Social Contract' that forms the basis of player-to-player relationships. It may save you a lot of headaches and potentially a damaged reputation on these boards.
2. As a new player, taking an evil character with an agenda is a risky choice. Feel free to look on the site for the perils of playing evil characters. Many experienced players can't handle them - particularly because they can stress the player-to-player relationship. I believe Spiral gave us permission to tweak our characters until we hit 2nd level. You should give some thought to switching your alignment to something non-evil.
3. If you don't know the formats or how to spoiler things in the right way - ASK us.
4. If you don't know the rules, second-guessing the DM after she has ruled on something is generally a bad idea. Accept her decision and ask her to explain how the rules are applied so you can learn how the system works not how you want it to work.
One other thing, you fired off an unrelated statement/question in one of your earlier posts.
...tried to look up your alignment and personality, and I noticed you didn't even write what alignment you are.
At this point, you will have noted in Strae's sheet that he had and is working on a firey temper. That, I think, explains his outburst. You are entirely correct about his alignment. When I transferred over his sheet from another variant of him, I must have knocked out his alignment in the shuffle. My apologies. His alignment is Lawful Neutral.
I was answering your initial question to explain the basis for Strae's perception of your character. I'm sure you do view the incidents differently. Is there a particular question that you wanted to ask among those opinions? The only question that stood out to me, since you mentioned it twice was about why no one had asked about your Order connection. Is that important for some reason?
Ninja, am considering to swap Rogue for ... well, Ninja. Not sure at all yet, just want to ask if class change at this point is still an option at all.
Ryu and others: I will allow one rewrite prior to reaching 2nd level.
Well, I hope my answer helped you show that many things weren't as you understood them (or Strae understood them).
EDIT: and what I wrote in reply was mostly not opinions but the explanation on motives or events regarding Ryu that you listed, as the player who made Ryu I believe I can say those are not just opinions but facts.
Not really. Character interactions are not about 'facts', they are about perception. As English isn't your native language, this may be hard to discuss but I'll give it a whirl. There are three things going on when you are communicating between characters. I'll try to demonstrate using Ryu and Cilyanka.
#1 - There is your INTENT as the writer. This is what you want to communicate in your post, the idea in your head, like this: Ryu will tease Cilyanka to let her know that Ryu kind of likes her.
#2 - There is what you actually write. Based on your writing skill, language differences, etc. it may or may not communicate your intent well. Let's say in our example, that your post comes out reading more neutrally: Ryu teases Cilyanka.
#3 - Based on what you wrote (#2), not your intent (#1), Cilyanka interprets your post bringing her own perceptions into it. Let's say in this case she reads it as: Ryu is mean to Cilyanka.
The only 'fact' is what you actually wrote. But unless you are crystal clear with communicating your intent (usually by text around the quote or the odd OOC comment) you can't say Cilyanka's interpretation is 'wrong'. And your intent doesn't define 'right'. Now had you teased Cilyanka and threw in text around it that said something like "Ryu really likes her and he fumbles over his words" and then Cilyanka responds as if his words were purely an insult - then yes, Cilyanka is not reading carefully and is missing your stated point so she is 'wrong'. But if your writing leaves multiple interpretations possible, then you can't say she is wrong in her interpretation because you left ambiguities in your posts and she saw them differently than you intended.
So, getting back to our last two posts... I was telling you my interpretation/reaction (#3) based on what you'd written (#2) and you were sharing your intent (#1). Both my interpretation and your intent have equal validity and neither can be rejected unless one or the other is blatantly implausible.
I still don't get why spoilered things had to influence the game when they weren't directed at you...
Different DMs have their own rules on spoilers. Some DMs allow anyone to read them, or only some of them (language spoilers for instance), or none of them at all. I don't recall what Spiral's rules are regarding spoilers. As I stated, I don't read spoilers generally. But Spiral's question asking if any of us would also like to influence Ameiko made it clear that someone had tried to influence her. I skimmed back through the posts and found nothing like that - which was confusing. The only possibility left was your spoilers and I figured since she must be referring to your spoilers, it would be OK to read them... otherwise, she might have phrased her request more neutrally, such as, "Ameiko is impressed, would anyone care to try to influence her?" It may be subtle for a non-English native but it is a very different question in English.
The other point here... when you are using a skill that has an outcome that might affect another character or their reputation (such as taking credit for a kill that someone else made - as I think Biter mentioned) you are potentially stepping on the character's AND the player's toes. That's a 'NO GO' zone for many players because it can cause bad blood. Also, to be fair to the player/character when you try such an action, you post the rolls publicly so the player/character can see and react to it. It is an often unstated but widely understood 'rule' of the game and why I suggested you look into threads on the Social Contract and/or ask us how best to spoiler/post/whatnot.
I think this is close to derail very badly, especially as almost all your examples now use Cilyanka and not your own character and I don't wish to drag her into this after that issue got solved.
Don't quote the GM on what she did with my impression roll try, the decision on how that works or is handled is not Ryu's/my fault. As mentioned posts earlier I placed that in spoiler exactly because I didn't know if that is possible or if yes how it should go.
I continue to post as per GM requirements and wishes but won't comment further here on my style of writing or playing.
It is useless, only makes matters worse, leads to walls of text, and results in nothing useful as it seems. Let's just focus on the game, and I will try to be much clearer myself from now on.
I think this is close to derail very badly, especially as almost all your examples now use Cilyanka and not your own character and I don't wish to drag her into this after that issue got solved.
I was using Ryu/Cilyanka as a simple boy/girl example.
Don't quote the GM on what she did with my impression roll try, the decision on how that works or is handled is not Ryu's/my fault.
Uh... OK.
Let's just focus on the game, and I will try to be much clearer myself from now on.
Fine with me.
I am very sorry about the massive derailment. I was just trying to express my characters viewpoints. The massive blowup was very unintentional and was certainly never intended to upset anyone in real life.
I've already dropped the subject in game and moved on. I realize this has temporarily resulted in a split party, but we are in town. Hopefully nothing too serious will happen.
That's why you're all to meet with Sheriff Hemlock at the Garrison. I still don't have my copy of the AP and, since -unfortunately- I'm going through Amazon [rolls eyes] I will not be able to start the main AP plot until the second week in August (giving me time to review the AP). Frankly, if it wasn't for the $1000+ in local and school taxes I have going out this month, I'd just pick up the PDF and start running with that. That's also been part of my hesitation on pulling the plug on certain events, since I don't quite have -official- attitudes for some of the NPCs. [For all I know some of the other founding families may ignore Ryu due to illegitimacy.]
That said, I'm going to comment on the drama so far. I'm hoping we can shake out all the awkwardness prior to the main plot unfolding.
First, I like in-character RP. I want all of you to start interacting more. It would help if the PCs all got along, of course, but sometimes working together for the greater good without liking each other is more interesting. [Harder on the poor DM, but interesting.]
Ryu, I do want you to DL and read the free players guides [both the original and the current one]. They will help you to see what's going on in this part of Golarion. Any other items or issues I have with you or anyone else will be by PM.
Now part of why I accepted Ryu despite my dislike for evil PCs was his note of wanting to play a redemption scenario, a concept that, to me, fits this AP as well.
Also, I'm going to be playing up some of the hazards this area provides for anger-oriented types. So expect to get some calls for will saves on temper issues.
Now, back to the game. ;)
Oooh, Sparrow shall we fake a fight so we can increase the danger/loot level?
If so, I hear your momma wears combat boots!
Ooh, my turn. Yo' momma's nose is so small, she looks like a halfling!
Ouch! Stings!
So is that enough to get the upgraded monsters? No?
OK, your Momma's so short, she can play handball against a curb!
Ooh, nice one!
Yo Momma's so ugly, she gets a +2 to disguise checks to look like a goblin!
Ohh... game relevant joke. That's hard to beat. :)
Your Momma's so fat, she counts as an Ooze!
I love feeling like I'm 7 again, lol.
Yo Momma's so slow, she's immune to that spell.
can someone please tell me why you are arguing like this? o.O
:D FYI - that last joke just killed me.
We play this right and we'll earn CR +4 monsters!
Oh yeah? Well your momma is so stupid, she'd starve an illithid!