Redelia's GM school (Inactive)

Game Master Redelia

There are a lot of obvious threads we can take, so I'll hone in on one that's more pronounced to PbP: role-playing depth.

We tend to mentally picture wandering off the path as going sideways; diving into leads that aren't leads, etc. Games can also easily get side tracked by diving too deep; turning into an interactive story.

My personal preference is to have a solid balance of story and old school adventure game. As a GM, when a party is beginning to switch into interactive story, I try to indulge while simultaneously directing back to the game itself. Depending on the tone of the table this can be subtle or overt:

I'm digging the interaction, keep it up, and I'll advance us around 1400 Tuesday.

or

"The venture-Captain raises an eyebrow, moving his head back and forth ever so slightly to follow the conversation. Eventually he breaks the rhythm of the back and forth, once he finds an opening, "I appreciate your interest, but remember, the Aspis Consortium has likely already made progress. Time is of the essence agents."

As a player, I tend to do the same, either an OOC post, or my character will speak up to push forward. Additionally as a player I find that finding an excuse to preemptively roll dice works at getting people back on track.

I tend to not worry about breaking verisimilitude within the game. Giving a succinct, but calm heads up in my experience isn't any more disruptive than stopping someone to ask for a Diplomacy Roll, or telling them that they can't move that far because it's difficult terrain.

I love it when players demonstrate their creativity and interest in the world I'm trying to reveal to them.

I try to go with them on their side journeys, adding enough improv to make it fun, but including in each of my posts one or more breadcrumbs for Hansel and Gretel to find their way back to the wicked witch.

In a similar fashion, I look for opportunities to convey as much of the adventure's background information as I can without revealing spoilers. Such breadcrumbs can be dialogue with a NPC, a brief expositive letter, tome, or even graffiti scrawled on a wall, or an object they discover.

As a role-player, I hate mindless dungeon crawls. Most such adventures contain a ton of rich background information on the history of the place and its surroundings and the motivations of the creator and the dungeon's current denizens. A player won't learn all that, unless the GM finds ways to reveal it.

In one such case recently, I finally sent the GM a PM, requesting he do just that. His call, but I'm hopeful he might make the extra effort.

GM Lorenzo's post reminds me that the Pathfinder GameMastery Guide is considerably different from the DMGs of old.

With Pathfinder's move to include GM stuff in the CRB, this book is really an amazing tool for ANY GM.

Please add anything you wish to the current discussion, because I would like to hear your thoughts on it. I also am issuing the next

*****ASSIGNMENT*****

Please download the document GM 101 which is found here. You will find that some parts do not apply at all to play by post, but there are still some helpful things there. I believe we have touched on the most applicable things to PbP there already, but I want you to each read it. If you have any questions or anything you want to talk about, please bring it up here.

I am going to assume that this may take some of you some time, but please try to complete it within a week.

I know we have not yet covered chronicles or reporting, but we will do that closer to the end.

In my past in-person experience I haven't found it to be a problem. It has yet to happen to me in PbP, so I'm here to soak up the tips :)

I try to go with them on their side journeys, adding enough improv to make it fun, but including in each of my posts one or more breadcrumbs for Hansel and Gretel to find their way back to the wicked witch.

Do you happen to have any examples of this handy?

TBH, for an online convention it seems like it would be hard to let a tangent go too far. Otherwise I could likewise enjoy it.

Allowing tangents can be tremendous fun. (I'd link to AP examples, but you'd need to know the AP pretty well to see them.)

I've had parties, such as my current Skull & Shackles group, who have gotten so excited about a side quest that I stopped improvising, and just picked up a full on adventure to run.

PFS/SFS can be tricky as both of them have time issues like you mention.

I've extolled her amazing GMing skills often, but here is a recent example of GM Ladile's efforts to bring a sandbox situation together, after the party had split into two groups and followed a number of divergent paths.

I think there's an important point buried in PaleDim's comments. The kind of game you are running can make a big difference here. If you're running a special, then there just is not time for any detours. If it's a scenario that is part of an online convention or was advertised as a 'quick run,' there is not always going to be time. If it's a leisurely game where a conversation with an NPC can take two weeks because everyone is saying and doing so much, then there's lots of time, if the rabbit trail is one that everyone will enjoy. I run games everywhere on that spectrum, as well as enjoying playing in them.

I still want everyone to do the reading assignments, but I also have another discussion topic, related to s problem one of you contacted me about.

What should a GM do if a player has posted something that makes either the GM or another player uncomfortable? It could be gross/overly violent/creepy, overly sexual, or racist/sexist/offensive.

I read GM 101 and 102 a few years ago when I was preparing to run at a local convention, and a lot of the hints in there are solid. Will need to re-read and see if anything has changed.

The hope would be as a GM that the person who had concerns would contact me in private, if possible.

DEFINITELY do not want to create an unwelcoming environment, and well aware that I have 'blindspots'. I've also played in games (not PFS) where an unwelcoming and downright offensive social environment was actively encouraged -- I've since done what I can to avoid such situations.

As a player, there have been a couple of situations where the GM has been contacted in the past about a concern, and adjustments have been made.

On the other side of the token, handling it privately is better if possible, and it does take the player (or GM) to reach out and mention it if they can.

I try to let my GMs know about my concerns now, and try to be aware of them when I'm prepping.

I agree with GM Wageslave about contacting the person in private first. I haven't had to deal with this (yet) but I suspect that a simple, friendly note asking the player to keep it PG would suffice in most cases. Maybe remind the player that postings in PbP will last forever and the audience is more than just the 5-7 people sitting at the virtual table.

If the player insists that he/she has no choice and simply has to play the character that way, then offer a compromise of allowing the player to post such content but put it in a spoiler so that those who have the fortitude to read such things can do so.

Finally, if the player insists that everyone MUST read everything that he/she writes, then you just have a bully player who is trying to force his/her POV and play style on everyone else. That likely requires a more forceful response. I guess in the extreme cases that would mean kicking the person out of the game.

Hopefully the simple, friendly note would work.

Yes, try to address the issue privately first, of course. I think most of the time anyone being perceived as offensive does not realize he/she has crossed a line and will be happy to back off. Most of the time...

Absolutely be straightforward, and muster the courage to address the person directly, in a PM first.

In this hypersensitive day and age it's sometimes difficult to know what might offend a person, and what's offensive seems to change so frequently you need an HR rep to update you almost daily.

Even face-to-face, it's possible for a reasonable person to miss the cues that the offended party feels are so obvious to him- or herself.

Life is simpler when we just treat each other with respect, express our concerns, and give one another the opportunity to address them.

If we can't resolve them together, we shake the proverbial dust off our feet and part company.

We play this game for fun; if that's missing, there are other games and other players and GMs out there.

Time for some catching up.

With regard to handling when the party gets off track, my approach would depend on the group. In my home games, I encourage a sand box approach, as it gives me an opportunity to find out what motivates the PCs and what seems to interest the players. I simply allow tangents to go on as long as the players seem interested. I may even move hooks or create new ones based on what the party chooses to pursue.

For organized play, where time is an issue, I try to remain "on script". For instance, in one of my current PbP games, the party had bypassed an entire act at the beginning of the scenario in the hope of pursuing what they concluded was a "fresher" lead. I allowed them to exhaust the first lead they followed, then provided a plausible reason for them to be delayed in their travel to the third act. During the time they waited for available travel, they decided to explore the area described in the first act and the scenario has since gone along mostly as written.

Likewise, I have been in other organized play games where the GM simply said something to the effect of "The scenario doesn't contemplate you pursuing this type of investigation/NPC and we have limited time, so do you want to pursue this other lead provided?". While it does break the immersion a little bit, it was appreciated and didn't seem to have any real impact on enjoyment of the game, which we were able to complete on time.

Nevertheless, I have seen creative player improvisation lead to creative GMing, even in organized play. On one occasion, we were looking for a lost Pathfinder. At our first encounter, we were attacked by rats, but our druid managed to befriend one of the rats and, through speak with animals, learned the location of the main villains' lair where the missing Pathfinder was being held. As written, the scenario would have had us first follow other, only partial clues to another location on suspicion that the Pathfinder was probably there. In this case, the GM had us follow the rat to the villain's main lair and confront the villain, only to find the missing Pathfinder was, in fact, at the other location (as the clues had suggested).

With regard to handling instances where the GM or player is uncomfortable, this too would vary on the circumstances. Generally, I feel that roleplaying should give us freedom to explore and maybe push some envelopes in character. In fact, playing flawed characters can be informative, interesting, and fun—allowing us to try and get a sense of how people those with opinions, even those in direct opposition to our own may think or act. I have a number of PCs in organized play that could cause offense for one reason or another, including a selfish, arrogant wizard; a gluttonous, sexist cleric; and a murderous, vivisectionist android. In each instance, when introducing the character, I have invited the GM and players to let me know if the PCs’ behavior should be altered/restricted for the game in order to allow others to play at their comfort level. I make it clear that the character’s views are not my own and I often play these flaws in such a way that it gives other characters an opportune to criticize, curb, or rebuke the flawed behaviors.

When I am GMing, I’d like to think that I am pretty thick skinned and would simply try and tolerate a post that I personally thought was too gross, violent, or creepy. If someone else expressed the sentiment, then I may make a general request of the party to tone those aspects down in order to make everyone feel safe and comfortable playing. If I believed the post was racist, sexist, or otherwise offensive to a specific group of people, I would probably post a general request to all players to be mindful of the content of their posts and also invite the players to PM me if they find certain content to be discomforting, offensive, or otherwise objectionable. If the behavior persisted, then I would probably issue a more strongly worded request with a note. If I thought the content violated the website’s code of conduct, I would notify a VO.

Pacing can be a very important issue in Play by Post games. Even a quick game is going to take several weeks, and a slow game has been known to drag for many months until everyone just gives up on it. Here are a few of my thoughts on the issue:

1. It can be important to specify what pace you are looking for. I can enjoy games at a few different paces. Here are a few options I've seen, and that seem to work well:
*the default on Flaxseed is one post per player per day, and either one post per day over the weekend or one post per weekend. A scenario at this pace is somewhere between 6 and 10 weeks most of the time.
*fast games tend to be two posts per player per day, or just a little less. These tend to be about 4-8 weeks long.
*slower games that still make progress are more like one post every two or three days per player. Scenarios at this pace can take 2 or 3 months.
(and slower than this, and games almost always fade out or otherwise don't finish)

2. If players are not posting within the posting rates you've clearly set up for the game, the GM is going to have to bot them, even if that bot is to put them on delay.

3. Whatever the player posting frequency expectation is, the GM is going to need to post at least twice that often to keep the game moving at that rate.

4. When the group is making decisions, it can be important to have agreement that when 3 players have agreed to a course of action, the group does that, rather than waiting for everyone to voice an opinion. There are places that a decision has major implications on prestige awarded or something else of that nature, and then waiting can be appropriate. You can't wait at every branching hallway for the entire group to agree which way to go.

5. Door openting procedures, the GM rolling initiative and also group perception checks when entering a new area, and a set marching order are also other things that can be significant in trying to keep up a good pace.

What do you guys think? How have you seen these tools used well? Have you seen them used poorly? Are there other tricks for keeping a game moving that you have seen or used?

I agree with each of your points. Although, I'm intrigued with the idea of a super-fast PbP, something like 4-6 posts per day (per player). I don't know if that can be done and maybe RP would suffer.

I only recently encountered the 3-players-agree mechanism in a game and I really like it. There are some long running games that I'm in now that suffer from not using that approach.

In addition to the door opening, marching order, etc. I find that it helps when some of the more complicated classes prepost actions in a spoiler. For example, a swashbuckler can post a parry/riposte in a spoiler with instructions for the GM to use it if the player is attacked.

I've wondered if it would be possible to post two rounds at a time in combat. Obviously some of the second round actions might depend on the outcome of the first round but I think that there are many situations where two rounds could be posted at once. Consider a melee character who is just going to keep swinging the sword until the monster dies. Has anyone seen someone try to do this? I don't think that the whole party would have to do this, in fact, it's kind of like a special case, one off botting mechanism. Example:

----

BigBen smashes the ogre in his face with his mace.

mace: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (1) + 5 = 6
damage: 1d8 + 2 ⇒ (3) + 2 = 5

----

Maybe that would become too complicated for a GM and maybe it wouldn't really speed things along.

I agree with each of your points. Although, I'm intrigued with the idea of a super-fast PbP, something like 4-6 posts per day (per player). I don't know if that can be done and maybe RP would suffer.

I've done this on many occasions. We sometimes equate quantity and complexity for quality. We as a hobby also sometimes equate quality role-playing with a "better" game. Some of my favorite games often start with a clean Howard-esque description of characters followed by direct and to the point posts.

When it comes to play styles de gustibus non disputandem est, a skilled GM can exist in both worlds.

As for your example at the end, 100% I think this is a great way to handle things. It's kept many a fight going quickly and cleanly. Don't shy away from it!

I feel like RfC is the right medium for faster paced play. It can be done by forum easily but you need everyone on the same page.

RfC?

Roll for Combat, the Play by Discord option.

I've not tried Play by Discord but one thing I like a lot about PbP is that it is fairly asynchronous. Even if I was doing 4-6 posts in a day, I can do them when it is a good time for me. I think that with a chat-based game, everyone has to be there, online, together.

Is that correct?

For PbD, people still post as they are able. It just ends up feeling less asynchronous because posts show up as they are made, not as they are refreshed.

It's proving to be challenging for some. I just got started with it after the outtages. There are a few things that still need to be hashed out like more persistent information and flow of information. There's not mechanism for spoilers yet either so there is some testing on that front.

The interesting piece is the increasing sophistication of the bots in the channel that assist with rolling.

The *fastest* run I've ever been on in Play By Post was one week from start to finish.

Confirmation run, to be fair, but we whipped through that sucker *with* a lot of rp and fun stuff going on.

Most, though, take a month or two. Having a rough idea of characters is kind of helpful, leaving 'hooks' is, too, but sometimes, just reaching out when there's 'Writer's Block' can be useful.

One week! That's amazingly fast.

One more basic skill I want us to talk about is taking care of yourself as a GM. Because each game only takes a few minutes a day, it's easy to keep adding more and more until suddenly it isn't fun anymore. It's also easy to find a bandwidth that works well, and then just keep at that same bandwidth year round, without taking a break. Here are a few of my suggestions to avoid issues:

1. Know your limits, both as GM and as player. Know what you can do regularly, what you can do for a short time when the end of one game overlaps with the start of another, and know how small a level you need to rest.

2. Learn to recognize the signs that you're heading for burnout before it hits. If you start to feel reluctant to post, stop what you are doing and figure out why.

3. Don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it. It can feel awful, like it's a personal failure, but it's better to gracefully deal with an issue than it is to force yourself to keep going and crash. Your players will understand if you need a break. They will even understand if you have to hand a game over to a new GM, and will prefer than to ending up with an abandoned game.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the issue?

In my personal experience, very recently I might add, that you may also wish to account for a little wiggle room in your bandwidth for real life events that may destabilize your PbP games; both player and GM.

Also seconding, because I admit I am bad at it, that always ask for help if you feel you may need it. Even if it is a brief day or two hiatus so you can recollect yourself.

Thinking about the gaming resumes on this thread, there are a lot of very experienced types from other games.

Burnout is very very real, and a constant threat. It's more than bandwidth breaking too. There's also the people at the table. I've had games with players who make me miserable. Miserable players in one game can drag your momentum down more than 5 good tables. That being said, if I add up about 100 tables of LG and ~300 PFS/SFS, I can only count about 10ish tables that did that. ~2.5% isn't bad at all.

When they hit, remind yourself that the pain is temporary and just power through it!

I am in the process right now of finding someone else to take over two playtest tables I was GMing. I found that I was dreading posting anything at all on Paizo's site, because that meant having to think about the playtest tables. It wasn't a matter of the players (they were doing everything right to contribute to a fun game) or the story, it was the actual rules that are a very poor fit for me. I kept telling myself that I needed to keep going to really give the playtest a chance, and almost killed my love of Pathfinder and Starfinder in the process. I also almost made myself sick.

What I am trying to say here, and the reason I'm sharing these rather painful details, is to say DON'T DO THIS to yourself. I should have realized before it became this bad that I needed to withdraw from these playtest games.

This is a really good point. Play test or otherwise (e.g., when Starfinder was new), jumping into a new system on PbP has some serious costs, and I imagine it’s outside your normal routine. Some other examples: starting to GM PFS games on PbP, starting a long running AP or home brew game on PbP, and probably many more examples. For these transitionary costs, it would seem ideal to cut down on your normal routine while you acclimate and decide whether the new thing alters your steady routine, or you decide it doesn’t work and you revert.

I'm super into PbP right now and I feel like I can do more. I'm trying to be really careful about planning around my considerable business travel. I do try to temper my enthusiasm in case something real-life were to interrupt my ability to play or manage tables.

Thank you very much for putting your feelings on the Playtest out there.

...I've been fighting a general feeling of malaise the past few months and I think the flame-out over running PF2PT at Gen Con was the considerable factor I had been forcing myself to ignore.

For me, I have to remember that signing up for a PbP will be a commitment of at least a few weeks. Sometimes I find myself in a lull in real life and I feel like I can take on more games -- AT THE MOMENT -- but I have to remember that just because I have a little extra free time now, doesn't mean I will have that same free time next week or the week after.

With the recent GameDay I found my limit for games as a player. Fortunately a few ended with the first session so I'm back to a comfortable level. When I start GMing, I'm going to have to back off on how many games I'm a player in.

My counsel would be to lean toward fewer commitments that you know you can honor, rather than commit to more that you likely cannot.

If this were a game of solitaire, no one would care if you quit. But a commitment to GM is a commitment to others as well.

If you find you can't see something you started through to the end, then follow Redelia's example and find a good replacement GM to take over for you.

If you find yourself frequently including apologies and excuses about repeated absences or delays when posting, that's a good indicator it's time to acknowledge you're overcommitted.

I keep a little private list of people I've enjoyed playing with and GMs I've enjoyed running a session. I also keep another list of 'never-agains.' It helps prevent the repetition of mistakes. Much of this is simply a matter of player-GM style preferences and compatibility. But personal reliability is an important measure, as well.

Of course, my list is tempered with the consideration that some folks don't have consistent access to the Internet 24/7, but I do have a list of my own of folks who were *awesome* and folks who were *not so much*.

More for the future, when I take up a bit more in PbP.

This school has been very informative.

I realize that I could easily fall prey to over commitment, so I appreciate the good advise that has been given.

I am already planning to pic up fewer games after gameday, just to give myself a break (plus things get busier at home around the holiday seasons).

Yes, i've definitely found my limit by simply going over, and not approaching it from beneath... I guess it's just discipline and keeping the eyes smaller than stomach.

I think everyone has to find their limit by going over. You just want to add slowly enough that when you are over, it's only slightly, and you can manage for the short time until one game ends and you're back to OK.

That is an interesting thought Redelia. I don't want it to be true but suspect it is. lol.

Travel is what usually gets me. I always think I will find more time to post while traveling than I do.

Ready to report our session, as soon as you give the green light, Redelia.

I'll use the info you provided: event name PbP GM school, event number 617,150.

Any special instructions?

You can report whenever you're ready, GM Lorenzo. If I messed up somehow and you're not a reporter, let me know and I'll fix it.

I'll add signatures and initials to the Chronicle sheets, once they're good to go.

I also checked re reporting the session, and it's not among those that appear on my GM/Event Coordinator tab. I can PM the information to you, if you'd like.

The following is a quote from the free GM 201 document that I'd like us to discuss:

Rules are both a blessing and a curse. They provide structure for the game, allowing players to predict a path and assess the likelihood of accomplishing a task. They provide you with a framework for controlling the action and adjudicating success or failure. On the other hand, rules dictate how a character, ability, or feature behaves in exact terms, leaving little room for interpretation. Sometimes a rule is left intentionally vague or open-ended to allow each group to decide for itself how to interpret the rule.

This probably would not be so big of a deal were it not for myriad characters’ builds depending on a particular interpretation of a rule being correct. Arguments about Rules as Written and Rules as Intended are the cause of many verbal scuffles at the table, and it’s important to know how to balance them to have a fun time.

Rules as Written (RAW): RAW at its extreme is the practice of determining how a rule behaves based only on what its rules text says, often involving grammatical dissection and other close analysis. A supporter of RAW has the logical high-ground because no matter what was intended originally, the final text is ultimately what is important. On the other hand, RAW can come across as rigid, expressing “if it isn’t explicitly stated, it isn’t allowed.”

Rules as Intended (RAI): RAI endeavors to understand what a rule intended to accomplish, even if its rules text might inadvertently make the intended effect difficult. Sometimes this interpretation is based off of an ability’s flavor text, which might imply an effect not supported by the rules text. RAI tends to be more flexible in allowing more and prohibiting less.

What is right?: When running a home game, a balance of the two philosophies is usually right. Players and the GM should be comfortable discussing their interpretations and coming to a compromise.

In an organized play setting, it’s important to stick closer to RAW. Those players who use an option based around a RAI interpretation may find table variation when different GMs rule differently on whether a particular ability works in the player’s favor. Be cautious about embracing a 100% RAW perspective, especially when adjudicating in-game effects that do not rely on character build. The game does not have a rule for everything, and on occasion it’s more important to create a quick ruling that everyone will enjoy in the shortterm. Just don’t set up false expectations about how the game works with a one-time ruling.

Whatever your stance, remember that it’s not a crime to forget a rule or be wrong. A lack of perfect rules knowledge or system master is not synonymous with cheating. Be civil, discuss a point quickly, and shift the focus back to the fun adventure.

Equally important:

...everyone makes mistakes.

It may sound difficult to do, but try to give the benefit of the doubt to all of your players unless they have a consistent and repeated history of deliberately bogging down things for rules discussions during play.

Thankfully, in PbP there are PMs and the Discussion Thread, as well as spoilers. Making sure that players are aware of them and can use them tends to be very helpful in defusing most rules-related discussion, especially because the GM can look up the rule in question via PRD and make a determination from that.

It is also equally possible (It's happened to me on in-person tables) where someone has been mistaken about a rule, and I *too* have been mistaken about it, and neither one of us has been correct looking it over.

Have you ever noticed how there often seems to be an inverse correlation between the certitude of someone's expressed opinion and the actual rules, when you have the opportunity to look things up? ;-)

When in doubt, I research the rules to the best of my ability, then I go to the Discussion thread and offer a hyperlink to the pertinent rules and a brief quote to explain the basis for my ruling. I close the post with an invitation to the players to correct me if I've overlooked something.

I don’t know that I have so much to say on this one, except I appreciate people pointing out a potential issue both as a player and a GM (both have happened).

When they do I listen openly and check, either resolving or further clarifying.

Side note: I find the google hangouts some tables are setting up provide much more comfortable places for people to discuss rules.

In PbP, we do have more time to discuss rules, which can be both a blessing and a curse. It is wonderful when a few posts in the discussion thread can mean people knowing more about the rules; I'm always glad to understand the intricacies of this game better. Sometimes, though, it can just end up with one player and the GM arguing back and forth, and not in a polite manner. One of the necessary skills for a GM is listening carefully, making sure a player feels listened to, and then after enough discussion ending the discussion and moving the game forward. It helps a lot when players know how to bring up questions respectfully, and know how to clearly and concisely state their understanding of the rule.

I a current game I just had the GM explain that in order to include a creature in a spell effect at least half the creature needs to be in the spell area. I cast confusion. So I am very tempted to call RAW on this one. But he is a good GM and is flexible in other areas so I'll likely just live with this nerf.

I think we should discuss a bit some ways of handling difficult players.

Here are a few general kinds of difficult players I know we can sometimes run into. Let's remember this is a publicly accessible discussion, so be careful not to get into individual examples here.

1. Players who don't post often enough to keep the game moving.

2. Players who are overly argumentative about rules

3. Players who seems to try to 'derail' the adventure

4. Players who have made characters that make other players uncomfortable.

What do you guys think? What can the GM do in such situations?

1. Depending on how the rest of the group is engaging, this may not be terribly disruptive. Sometimes you have to remind the group of the posting standards and that seems to get it moving.

2. I don't mind a player pointing stuff out if it's helpful but disruptive you need to set expectations with that player the level of rigor you are playing to. Also, some self-awareness about yourself and your comfort with the rules should be considered.

3. You kinda have to let this go within reason. I had a recent situation that turned out just fine. Some occasional reminders about goal and direction help but the characters make the decision ultimately.

4. If it makes anyone uncomfortable, it is unacceptable. Also having had this come up recently, a private note to the player is the first step. I recommend this feedback model: describe the specific behavior or issue, describe it's impact on you, suggest alternative behavior that would be preferable.