Natural Weapon Attack Bonus and Grapple CMB

SO does a natural weapon attack bonus increase a grapples CMB

For example: Dire tiger has grab with its claws and bite. I have a AOMF with a +1 enchantment. Would the +1 to attack role from the amulet increase the CMB for the grapple since the weapon is used to grapple. I thought that bonus only applied to disarm/sunder but thought I would ask.

Thanks

I think it applies to disarm, sunder, or trip. You will get more responses in the Rules Questions forum.

Rules question.

No. I remember this one being answered.

Will start digging for the citation.

No. Grapple is not a weapon-based maneuver, and does not gain an enhancement bonus from a weapon. However, grab does give a flat +4 to all grapple checks.

Rule of thumb: If you can use a maneuver to replace one of you attacks during a full-attack, then every to-hit boost the attack would have benefitted from benefits the maneuver. Grapple, bullrush, etc are standard actions or done during a charge etc.

This is from the Core Rulebook FAQ:

Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?

It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).

It doesn't answer the question directly, but the answer is there nonetheless.

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver

I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that a (natural) weapon with the grab quality is a weapon being used to perform a maneuver.

Further thought: Would you allow a mancatcher enhancement bonus to apply to a grapple check made with it? If no, are you really arguing that a grapple made with a mancatcher is not a weapon used to perform a maneuver?

Quote:

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver

I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that a (natural) weapon with the grab quality is a weapon being used to perform a maneuver.

Further thought: Would you allow a mancatcher enhancement bonus to apply to a grapple check made with it? If no, are you really arguing that a grapple made with a mancatcher is not a weapon used to perform a maneuver?

Yeah, I agree with you. The Bestiary disagrees.

Behir has Weapon Focus (bite), its bite has the grab ability (+4 to grapple), it has BAB +10, size Huge (+2 to CMB), Str 23 (+6), and its grapple modifier is listed as +22.

Cat, Leopard has Weapon Finesse, Str 16, Dex 19, bite with the grab ability, BAB +2, and its grapple bonus is +9.

Here's what the grab ability says:

Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

I would allow a creature who was trying the check just using the part of its body that it used in the grab (at the –20 penalty) to benefit from bonuses with that weapon. If it is trying the grapple normally, it is using its whole body for the grapple and doesn't benefit from other bonuses.

Here's what the grab ability says:

Bestiary, p. 301 wrote:

Grab (Ex) The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

I would allow a creature who was trying the check just using the part of its body that it used in the grab (at the –20 penalty) to benefit from bonuses with that weapon. If it is trying the grapple normally, it is using its whole body for the grapple and doesn't benefit from other bonuses.

Okay, but then to get the bonus on your sunder and trip checks, you need to *only* use the weapon, no other part of your body (no twisting at the waste to put force behind your strike, no using your leges to get optimal positioning... ) So that will be a -20 there too. :)

Again, I refer you to the mancatcher. The mancatcher gives both user and target the grappled condition, but only the mancatcher is doing the grappling. I would treat a natural weapon with grab the same way you treat a mancatcher.

Also, those Grapple CMBs are the same cmg it would use to initiate or maintain a grapple without using the grab ability.

This is from the Core Rulebook FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?

It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).

It doesn't answer the question directly, but the answer is there nonetheless.

Additionally, from the Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Qualities Blog post:

There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).

There's another exception in that blog for Maneuvers made with Class Features which specify that you are using a weapon for the maneuver in the text of the Class Feature. (Specifically for Polearm Master, but I would extend it by analogy to any other similar case.

Would the +1 to attack role from the amulet increase the CMB for the grapple

No.

Surtyr wrote:

Would the +1 to attack role from the amulet increase the CMB for the grapple

No.

This ruling implies that you can't apply the amulet's bonus to disarm, sunder, reposition, or trip attempts made using an unarmed strike or natural attack (since those use a combat maneuver also).

But then how do we reconcile this with the FAQ that specifically says "apply the weapon bonuses to the maneuver" when you use a weapon to perform the maneuver?

Is this ruling unique to the amulet of mighty fists? Unique to grapple checks only?

Or is this ruling implying that you can't actually use unarmed strikes or natural attacks to make combat maneuver checks at all?

Or does the more recent FAQ overrule the first one completely?

All good questions.

That ruling made a lot of people scratch their heads in confusion.

Nefreet

That post doesn't seem to have made it into the FAQ? And the question is not marked "Answered." It is marked "No response"

The question also asked if you could apply the AoMF bonus to your CMD to defend against grapples, and did not reference grab at all, so it is not clear to me that that response is relevant to this.

Additionally, from the Combat Maneuvers and Weapon Special Qualities Blog post:

And from further down the blogs discussion page

Belafon wrote:

Quote:

Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.

So... My monk has Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and is wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1. Does this mean he gets to add those two bonuses to other Combat Maneuvers such as Grapple?

I'd file that under "the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers."

More stuff

Quandary wrote:

(Paraphrased) Does a creature with an automatic followup maneuver ability, like a wolf with its free trip, get to add extra attack bonuses to the free combat maneuver check?

The general rule for combat maneuvers is:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.

That second sentence means that if you're a creature that gets an automatic followup disarm, sunder, or trip on a successful attack roll, any extra bonuses to the normal attack roll apply to the free followup combat maneuver. It doesn't matter if the weapon is normally a "trip weapon" or not, you get the bonus.
Example: A wolf with a +1 enhancement bonus on its bite attacks from a magic fang applies that +1 to its free trip combat maneuver. Likewise, an advanced/companion wolf with Weapon Focus (bite) applies that +1 to its free trip combat maneuver.

(Which is nice, because it means we don't have to add in extra rules or exceptions for this sort of thing).

(BTW, this also means if you're using a finesse weapon to make a disarm, sunder, or trip, you should use your Dex instead of Str when calculating your CMB for the check.)

So basically, if it is a follow on manuever, that uses the weapon, it gets the bonuses. If grab counts as a follow on maneuver. It is a follow on manuever that doesn't work if you use a different weapon, so it is a follow on manuever based on the weapon, therefore it should get the bonus.

That is where we started. I think everyone was always in agreement that:

1. Bonuses like Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, and amulet of mighty fists definitely work for disarm, sunder, or trip.
2. When applied to grapple—specifically, the grab ability—it is up to the GM.
3. This discussion belongs in the Rules Questions forum.

It is in the rules forum :)

It says:
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Natural Weapon Attack Bonus and Grapple CMB

at the bottom of my screen

:) So it is. (I got to it through the PFS forum somehow, so I thought it was still there.)

So, at this point, my position is:

I understand that it is up to the GM. But I find it very hard to understand a GM ruling that a bite(grab) is not a weapon used in a maneuver in the same way that a bite(trip) is a weapon used in a maneuver. And I am working *very* hard to be diplomatic about that.

So, at this point, my position is:

I understand that it is up to the GM. But I find it very hard to understand a GM ruling that a bite(grab) is not a weapon used in a maneuver in the same way that a bite(trip) is a weapon used in a maneuver. And I am working *very* hard to be diplomatic about that.

I'm inclined to agree with you, FLite. I said so upthread.

I will probably continue to rule it in PFS games the same way that I have in the past (no extra bonuses on grab attacks) for PCs and their pets, as well as for monsters. If a player asks me to rule that the extra bonuses apply, I will probably do so but remind them that it will apply to any monsters in the scenario as well.

I have seen far more monsters with the grab abilities than I have seen tigers, and since ruling one way or another is only going to affect 5% of the rolls (assuming the bonus is +1), I think pushing for this is worse for players, in general.

It may not have made the FAQ, but it's an "Official Rules Response" either way.

(though given its disfavor, I'll bet most ppl will just hand wave it as "not official" anyways)

yes, but the official rules response you cited was to the following to questions.

"does an AoMF bonus apply to (all) grapple checks."
"does an AoMF bonus add to CMD to resist grapples."

I think everyone in the thread agrees the answer to the first is no, and the answer to the second is clearly no.

So the ORR is correct, but not really relevant to "does the AoMF bonus apply (specifically) to the grab followup granted by the UMR bite(grab)"

The official answer to which appears to be covered by the answer "the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers."

Specifically, from examples, we know that if you have a class feature that lets you use a weapon to make a maneuver, you get the bonuses (polearm master). If you have a feat that lets you use your shield to make a maneuver, you get to use your bonuses (shield slam.) It seems clear, though is not explicitly stated that if you have a weapon that lets you make a free maneuver on a hit, you would add the weapons enhancement bonus (mancatcher)

If you maintain that trip, sunder and disarm are the only ones that get bonuses, you start winding up making silly arguements like you don't get a whips enhancement bonus to ranged steal attempts, which implies the whip isn't used to make the steal attempts, in spite of their being at range.

Further wierdness: (tangentially related.)

There is a special exception to the above rules. If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning (this also means we don’t have to add “drag” and “reposition” weapon properties to existing weapons).

When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only ... These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you’re using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player’s Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon’s enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally.