Spell casting while grappled

I do not know if this has been adressed previously. But here I go.

PRPG p.184 Cast a Spell action states:

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

While p. 201 states:

Instead of attempting to
break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that
requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or
make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against
any creature within your reach, including the creature that
is grappling you.

While p. 567 states:

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature,
trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4
penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty
on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except
those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition,
grappled creatures
can take no action that requires two
hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast
a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s
CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled
creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

While p. 568 states:

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take
few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is f latfooted.
A pinned character also takes an additional –4
penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited
in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can
always
attempt to free itself, usually through a combat
maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature
can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any
spells that require a somatic or material component. A
pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make
a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell
level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of
grappled, and their effects
do not stack.

My assumption is that since only the pinned condition makes any mention of somatic or material components, page 184 should have read as follows:

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, pinned, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

Any thoughts any one?

I do not know if this has been adressed previously. But here I go.

If I read all the separate passage as one i come to this conclusion:

If Grappled:

Cast a spell with a verbal component (184)
Cast a spell with a somatic component if one hand free (184)
Cast a spell with material/focus component if one hand free (184)

If doing so - make a concentration check (567)

Instead breaking or reversing a grapple you can cast a spell (as per 184+567)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If Pinned:

Cast spell with verbal component (568)

If doing so, make Concentration check (568)

The problem is that p. 184 plainly states that you cannot cast spells with S or M if grappled, while p. 201 states that you can.

I think p. 184 meant to state pinned as that would fit with pp. 567 + 568.

Correction to OP. It should have read:

While p. 201 states:

PRPG p. 201 wrote:

Instead of attempting to
break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that
requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or
make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against
any creature within your reach, including the creature that
is grappling you.

Specific beats general, precise beats summary. Looks to me like it's only the pinned condition which requires Still Spell now.

Also page 206, (Concentration) adds more confusion:
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration
check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell."

The only way I see all these rules can work together is:
- While grappled you can only cast spells without a somatic component.
- If there is no somatic component but there is a material component, you have to have that material in your hand.
- If you are pinned you can't cast any spell with somatic or material components.

The only way I see all these rules can work together is:

- While grappled you can only cast spells without a somatic component.
- If there is no somatic component but there is a material component, you have to have that material in your hand.
- If you are pinned you can't cast any spell with somatic or material components.

Thats my interpretation too.

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

Thanks for your input.

Just to resume, that's how I see it:

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

That's ok. Just add the pinned condition.

Instead of attempting to
break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

Side note: the spell to be cast can not have a somatic component, and if it has a material component you must have it in your hand.

Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell.

Side note: Pinned condition excludes the possibility of casting a spell with material component. The sentence should read something like

Grappled: grappled creatures can take no action that requires two
hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell.

Side note: the spell to be cast can not have a somatic component, and if it has a material component you must have it in your hand.

Pinned: A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A
pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check ...

That's ok.

The problem is that p. 184 plainly states that you cannot cast spells with S or M if grappled, while p. 201 states that you can.

Specifically, page 184 says you can't cast spells while grappling (not while grappled). In Pathfinder, "grappling" and "grappled" aren't synonymous; the attacker is "grappling" and both the attack and defender are "grappled".

Of course, that still doesn't explain why page 206 disagrees with page 184.

It's weird, but if there is a difference between "grappling" and "grappled" the inconsistancies go away.

You can't cast a spell with somatic if "grappling" or pinned. Specifically, if you are initiating the grapple.

To cast while grappled (not pinned), you need to make a concentration check. Specifically, if someone else initiated a grapple against you.

Additionally, the difference is who gets to deal damage and control the fight, which is why the option exists to reverse the grapple.

So weird, but not inconsistant. The text seems to agree with itself semantically.

You can't cast a spell with somatic if "grappling" or pinned. Specifically, if you are initiating the grapple....

So weird, but not inconsistant. The text seems to agree with itself semantically.

But in p. 206

But in p. 206

"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand!

Yeah?

184 says that you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling

206 says you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling or pinned

Other than the omission of "pinned" on 184, what's the difference?

angelroble wrote:

But in p. 206

"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand!

Yeah?

184 says that you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling

206 says you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling or pinned

Other than the omission of "pinned" on 184, what's the difference?

Oops -- I misread the comment on page 184 to mean that you couldn't cast spells at all. So there isn't a contradiction.

angelroble wrote:

But in p. 206

"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand!

Yeah?

184 says that you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling

206 says you cannot cast a spell with a somatic component while grappling or pinned

Other than the omission of "pinned" on 184, what's the difference?

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler. You can cast a spell only if you are the grappled one (this is, your enemy is who initiated the grapple). P 200 and 201.

"Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell"

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler.

Well, it doesn't say that casting a spell is one of the possible results of a successful grapple check (only Damage, Pin, Move, or Tie Up happen when you succeed on a grapple check). That doesn't mean that you can't do other things that don't depend on a grapple check, as far as I know (as long as they don't require the use of your hands).

[The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler. You can cast a spell only if you are the grappled one (this is, your enemy is who initiated the grapple). P 200 and 201.

"Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell"

No, that is correct. When "grappling", that is, initiating the grapple, you cannot cast a spell requiring a somatic component. When "grappled", that is, being grappled by someone else, you can cast, but only with a concentration check.

Is there something that says otherwise?

My assumption is that since only the pinned condition makes any mention of somatic or material components, page 184 should have read as follows: Any thoughts any one?

No

You can't cast a (S) spell while grappled or pinned.

You can't cast a (M) spell while pinned, but you can while grappled if you have the (M) in your hand (or succeed a grapple check to fetch it from your spell pouch.)

You can't cast a (V) spell while pinned.

If you cast a spell with still spell (removes the S) then you can do so.

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

angelroble wrote:

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler.

Well, it doesn't say that casting a spell is one of the possible results of a successful grapple check (only Damage, Pin, Move, or Tie Up happen when you succeed on a grapple check). That doesn't mean that you can't do other things that don't depend on a grapple check, as far as I know (as long as they don't require the use of your hands).

Except that you have to spend a standard action to mantain grapple, and that let you with swift action spells.

hogarth wrote:

angelroble wrote:

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler.

Well, it doesn't say that casting a spell is one of the possible results of a successful grapple check (only Damage, Pin, Move, or Tie Up happen when you succeed on a grapple check). That doesn't mean that you can't do other things that don't depend on a grapple check, as far as I know (as long as they don't require the use of your hands).

Except that you have to spend a standard action to mantain grapple, and that let you with swift action spells.

Or you could use the Greater Grapple feat to maintain the grapple as a move action.

But yes, under "normal" circumstances, you're using a standard action each round to maintain the grapple and so most spellcasting is out.

[

The Grandfather wrote:

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

There is a little problem as in p.206 it says:

The Grandfather wrote:

The problem is that p. 184 plainly states that you cannot cast spells with S or M if grappled, while p. 201 states that you can.

Specifically, page 184 says you can't cast spells while grappling (not while grappled). In Pathfinder, "grappling" and "grappled" aren't synonymous; the attacker is "grappling" and both the attack and defender are "grappled".

Of course, that still doesn't explain why page 206 disagrees with page 184.

Of course. That is the crux!

The rules are consistant if somewhat confusing if you miss the grappled/grappling connection.

I would suggest the wording on p. 184 to be chnaged to:

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must
gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell
of this type while bound, initiating or maintaining a grapple, pinned, or with both your
hands full or occupied.

The problem when you initiate a grapple is that you actually need both hands to maintain a grapple.

Thanks a lot for the help.

The Grandfather wrote:

My assumption is that since only the pinned condition makes any mention of somatic or material components, page 184 should have read as follows: Any thoughts any one?

No

You can't cast a (S) spell while grappled or pinned.

You can't cast a (M) spell while pinned, but you can while grappled if you have the (M) in your hand (or succeed a grapple check to fetch it from your spell pouch.)

You can't cast a (V) spell while pinned.

If you cast a spell with still spell (removes the S) then you can do so.

The Grandfather wrote:

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

Just to confirm, everybody here agrees on this interpretation? Because we waste a lot of time arguing grappling at my table...

James Risner wrote:

The Grandfather wrote:

My assumption is that since only the pinned condition makes any mention of somatic or material components, page 184 should have read as follows: Any thoughts any one?

No

You can't cast a (S) spell while grappled or pinned.

You can't cast a (M) spell while pinned, but you can while grappled if you have the (M) in your hand (or succeed a grapple check to fetch it from your spell pouch.)

You can't cast a (V) spell while pinned.

If you cast a spell with still spell (removes the S) then you can do so.

The Grandfather wrote:

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

Just to confirm, everybody here agrees on this interpretation? Because we waste a lot of time arguing grappling at my table...

Not quite.

- If you are grappling someone (either initiating or maintaining) you can not cast S or M spells.

- If you are being grappled you can cast spells which require only one free hand (i.e. most S and M spells are allowed).

- If you are pinned you can not cast S or M spells.

- Spell casting while under the pinned or grappled condition always requires Concentration checks.

Not quite.

- If you are grappling someone (either initiating or maintaining) you can not cast S or M spells.

- If you are being grappled you can cast spells which require only one free hand (i.e. most S and M spells are allowed).

- If you are pinned you can not cast S or M spells.

- Spell casting while under the pinned or grappled condition always requires Concentration checks.

After re-reading this thread and the rules I have to agree that per RAW this is the correct interpretation, and consistent.

But, as a personal feeling, I think this was more an error in the designer's checking, and that they forgot to change "grappling" for "grappled".

For ex. in 3.5, Concentration section:
"Grappling or Pinned. The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell. "
In 3.P, same section:
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell."

The writing is almost the same. Remember that in 3.5, there was no "grappled" condition, but "grappling"; also, while grappling (either you inititated it or not) you couldn't cast a S spell.
It seems weird to me that the Paizo designers included in the Concentration section a rule to deal with spells while grappling (i.e initiating), when this is a very unfrequent situation (swift spell), and that they ruled it so the old text matched exactly the new text, changing the whole meaning of it.

As I said, a personal feeling.

The Grandfather wrote:

Not quite.

- If you are grappling someone (either initiating or maintaining) you can not cast S or M spells.

- If you are being grappled you can cast spells which require only one free hand (i.e. most S and M spells are allowed).

- If you are pinned you can not cast S or M spells.

- Spell casting while under the pinned or grappled condition always requires Concentration checks.

After re-reading this thread and the rules I have to agree that per RAW this is the correct interpretation, and consistent.

But, as a personal feeling, I think this was more an error in the designer's checking, and that they forgot to change "grappling" for "grappled".

For ex. in 3.5, Concentration section:
"Grappling or Pinned. The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell. "
In 3.P, same section:
"Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell."

The writing is almost the same. Remember that in 3.5, there was no "grappled" condition, but "grappling"; also, while grappling (either you inititated it or not) you couldn't cast a S spell.
It seems weird to me that the Paizo designers included in the Concentration section a rule to deal with spells while grappling (i.e initiating), when this is a very unfrequent situation (swift spell), and that they ruled it so the old text matched exactly the new text, changing the whole meaning of it.

As I said, a personal feeling.

It is a bit messed up. Yesterday I actually came upon a sentence that used grappling for the person being grappled (somewhere in the combat section; maybe th AC penalty table), so not even that is crystal clear. But I think my previous post is as close as we come to RAW.

Could a PF rep clarify any of this? please?

Could a PF rep clarify any of this? please?

+1

Official ruling required please

Official ruling required please

Repeat, rinse...

stuart haffenden wrote:

Official ruling required please

Repeat, rinse...

I too would like an erratum on this.

Any new updates on this issue?

I have said before but don't think I received an answer that there appears to be an error in the rulebook. In one passage it says that you can't cast spells with a somatic component while grappled but under grappling it says that you can do anything that requires only one free hand AND the description of somatic components says that it requires one free hand.

Just looking at that one set of items alone says to me that something is in error in the rules: the first item I mentioned directly contradicts the other two and I can't see any way to reconcile the two. In my game, until I get a clarification, I rule that you can indeed cast spells with a somatic component while grappled (not while pinned, of course, and not while you're the grappler).
M

In my game, until I get a clarification, I rule that you can indeed cast spells with a somatic component while grappled (not while pinned, of course, and not while you're the grappler).

M

I think that is my stance as well on this matter.

James Risner wrote:

[

The Grandfather wrote:

But if we draw p. 206 into this it becomes apparent that there is a bit of a mixup when it comes to RAW spellcasting when grappled and7or pinned.

I don't yet see the mixup you see.

There is a little problem as in p.206 it says:

"The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand."
That seems to permit to cast a spell with material component while pinned, if you have those components in hand, which is denied in the pinned condition description. I think it is a simple writting error though.

Hi, it is the first time I ask a question in this forum so please if I do something wrong (even the most obvious thing) tell me to do not repeat it again.

Related to the quotes above, I have the following questions (I considered was related enough with this discussion to include it here). My character is a monk that has the ki power of true strike (spell like ability, doesn't require somatic component to cast it) and also has the greater grapple feat. In the first turn I grapple the opponent and both of us gain the grappled condition, in the second turn I use my standard action to cast true strike and the move action to make the grapple check (with the benefit of true strike if I am right).

1st question: The concentration check I guess I have to do to cast true strike while under the grappled condition is considering my CMB or the CMB or the opponent I am grappling?

2ond question: How would it work if the opponent is pinned or tied up (but I am still under the grappled condition)?

angelroble wrote:

hogarth wrote:

angelroble wrote:

The inconsistency is that the grappling maneuver does not list casting a spell in the actions you can take if you are the grappler.

Well, it doesn't say that casting a spell is one of the possible results of a successful grapple check (only Damage, Pin, Move, or Tie Up happen when you succeed on a grapple check). That doesn't mean that you can't do other things that don't depend on a grapple check, as far as I know (as long as they don't require the use of your hands).

Except that you have to spend a standard action to mantain grapple, and that let you with swift action spells.

Or you could use the Greater Grapple feat to maintain the grapple as a move action.

But yes, under "normal" circumstances, you're using a standard action each round to maintain the grapple and so most spellcasting is out.

I'm sorry, first error... these ones were the comments I wanted to quote, not the others in my preview post.

This is a very old thread. The core rulebook has been through a couple of reprints since these posts are made, so there may have been some changes since. You might have been better served by starting a new thread about your own question; now you'll probably get a confusing cascade of replies to six-year-old posts.

Hi there! Just in case anyone sees this floating around (like myself seeing as this is the top google listing for spellcasting while grappled), the updated rules on grappling will help clear the question up.

Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

and

If You Are Grappled

If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.

Once the grapple is successful, you are both grappled, but only the initiator can freely break the grapple. This removes the distinction of grappling/grappler as now "Grappled" is a condition.

One free hand lets you access Material Components per normal spellcasting rules. Only the old "grappling" and pinned side notes list Somatic as being restricted, but the most recent update involving it (that I can find) states:

Grappled or Pinned

Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components.

Sadly, while this has been Errata'd in, the old sections involving "Grappling or Pinned" haven't been removed, and still list somatic as out for both. However, since the newer text contradicts the older (by omission), it's safe to say to go with the newer text regardless.

As always, Your DM has final say, and let's face it, grappling sucks, even if it has gotten much easier since 3.5.

So if I'm grappling a creature and want to cast a spell: do I roll against my CMB? Their CMB? Do I get a pass because I have them pinned?

(assume I have greater grapple or am casting a swift spell)

Roll against their CMB. If you have them pinned, you still have the grappled condition.