Whirlwind special attack and swarms

The question came up because I am playing a cleric and I was thinking about some ways of actually causing damage to a swarm. So, I thought about summoning a Small Air Elemental and have it use its Whirlwind(Su).
The rules are not clear on this, but I'd like to see what you guys would rule in this situation.
If I were DM'ing I would problably rule that a swarm damaged by a whirlwind would take 50% extra damage (as if it were an area attack) if it fails its saving throw.

What I find odd is that the whirlwind saving throw doesn't take into account the weight (or size, which is simpler in game terms) of the affected creature(s), making it as useful against a single beetle as against a troll (if the size of the whirlwinding creature permits).

The question came up because I am playing a cleric and I was thinking about some ways of actually causing damage to a swarm. So, I thought about summoning a Small Air Elemental and have it use its Whirlwind(Su).

The rules are not clear on this, but I'd like to see what you guys would rule in this situation.
If I were DM'ing I would problably rule that a swarm damaged by a whirlwind would take 50% extra damage (as if it were an area attack) if it fails its saving throw.

I'd rule likewise.

What I find odd is that the whirlwind saving throw doesn't take into account the weight (or size, which is simpler in game terms) of the affected creature(s), making it as useful against a single beetle as against a troll (if the size of the whirlwinding creature permits).

Well, saving throws are a measure of the strength or challenge that an effect supposes.

All creatures are subject to saving throws equally unless otherwise noted.

Which is the case with the whirlwind, which states that creatures over certain size cannot take damage from it.

Note that while the troll might get caught in a small air elemental's whirlwind it could not get damaged by it and the whirlwind has a limited duration. When it's over the troll can rip the small elemental to shreds in a single round.
Against a beetle(or 300) it's a finishing move, for the troll it's only a slight inconvenience.

The question came up because I am playing a cleric and I was thinking about some ways of actually causing damage to a swarm. So, I thought about summoning a Small Air Elemental and have it use its Whirlwind(Su).

The rules are not clear on this, but I'd like to see what you guys would rule in this situation.
If I were DM'ing I would problably rule that a swarm damaged by a whirlwind would take 50% extra damage (as if it were an area attack) if it fails its saving throw.

What I find odd is that the whirlwind saving throw doesn't take into account the weight (or size, which is simpler in game terms) of the affected creature(s), making it as useful against a single beetle as against a troll (if the size of the whirlwinding creature permits).

Randomly we just came across an air elemental in our adventuring group and the elemental had no trouble picking up a half-orc in full plate but it just couldn't get the halfling. It's just part of how the save system works, using weight would be hard to calculate even if more accurate.

In your situation I would rule the swarm was dispersed by the whirlwind. It's made up of tiny/diminutive creatures, the whirlwind should easily defeat them.

Alternately, the Air Elemental could suck the swarm into its whirlwind, then fire them at the PCs like a road runner style machine gun.

Something similar has recently come up in my own game. Just this very evening, My character (gnome sorcerer w/ the aberrant bloodline) Summoned a rat swarm. It was initially used to wipe out a small group of gnolls, but as per the spell Summon Swarm the caster cannot control the swarms' movement and target, and once the last gnoll had dropped the party barbarian stepped up to finish the swarm off.

Now here is where the question comes in. The Barbarian stepped up to bat with a greataxe, and also has the Cleave feat (which has been modified from 3.5). So the question is this - Can the Barbarian use his Cleave feat to attack two adjacent parts of the swarm?

On one hand the Swarm counts as a single creature, despite its sometimes irregular shape.
It was a Rat Swarm so it was affected by only half the damage that the Barbarian output, but after hitting with the first attack, is the Barbarian entitled to make his cleave against a second part of the swarm?

According to Cleave, it doesn't say that the second target must be a DIFFERENT foe, just that it must be adjacent and within reach.

However, if this were say an Ogre or some other creature of large size, I am confident that Cleave would be ineffective.

In the heat of the moment we ruled he could do it, just to finish the swarm off. It really had little bearing on the encounter since we were just mopping up, but I think upon closer examination Cleave wouldn't normally work like this.

What do you guys think?

I think you're right, cleave wouldn't work like this.
But as a heat of the moment ruling I think it feels ok.

Cleave does not allow multiple attacks on the same creature, and a swarm is treated as a single entity for most effects.

Against a beetle(or 300) it's a finishing move, for the troll it's only a slight inconvenience.

I have to disagree with this statement. It's not a finishing move to diminutive/fine creatures, because they get a bonus to Dexterity due to size that are reflected on their Reflex saving throw, while the bigger creatures actually get a penalty to their Dexterity (and thus Reflex). And that is the part of the rules that bother me.

I know the system can't cover every situation, but if I say to my DM: "If I were you, I'd say that a whirlwind is instant kill against swarms of diminutive or fine creatures" or "That swarm should really get a -8 penalty to Reflex against whirlwind", chances are he won't be very receptive.

Anyway, my final house rule for this is: Whirlwind(Su) is considered an area attack against swarms and creatures receive a special size modifier to Reflex saves against Whirlwind(Su) equal to those of their CMB/CMD. Anybody agrees?

What do you guys think?

I agree with nidho: shouldn't work by the RAW, but it was a good call nonetheless.

nidho wrote:

Against a beetle(or 300) it's a finishing move, for the troll it's only a slight inconvenience.

I have to disagree with this statement. It's not a finishing move to diminutive/fine creatures, because they get a bonus to Dexterity due to size that are reflected on their Reflex saving throw, while the bigger creatures actually get a penalty to their Dexterity (and thus Reflex). And that is the part of the rules that bother me.

I admit I exaggerated a bit, finishing move is way too optimistic an approach. It works, but it's not an auto-success.

I know the system can't cover every situation, but if I say to my DM: "If I were you, I'd say that a whirlwind is instant kill against swarms of diminutive or fine creatures" or "That swarm should really get a -8 penalty to Reflex against whirlwind", chances are he won't be very receptive.

Anyway, my final house rule for this is: Whirlwind(Su) is considered an area attack against swarms and creatures receive a special size modifier to Reflex saves against Whirlwind(Su) equal to those of their CMB/CMD. Anybody agrees?

If you really want to houserule I'd suggest grasshopper's idea, make the whirlwind disperse the swarm inmediately. The effect is the same and you don't need to calculate anything.