There are a lot of things to talk about.
First, we'll need to establish exactly who your characters are. Is rknop a tribal chief and Razzocnor his right-hand lizard? Myself, I think it would be an interesting story if the two of you had somehow joined with some human(oid) adventurers, which is where your strange ideas for a nation originated, and are now returning to your tribe just as your chief is thinking of naming a successor. Then the first arc of the campaign would basically be becoming the chief of your tribe and starting your plans for change. Up to you, though.
Second, we'll need to fill out your tribe and the world around them. I'd like to give you a lot of input on both of these elements, particularly the makeup of your tribe. I've got some thoughts on what we could do with this, but I need a little bit longer to put these thoughts together.
Third, we'll need to decide exactly how to do the kingdom-building portion of the campaign. I'm re-reading the Ultimate Campaign rules, and I think we'll run mostly with those, but maybe with some tweaks. We'll probably also use some of the Ultimate Intrigue rules for social encounters, since a lot of this campaign will depend on diplomacy rather than combat. There will definitely be combat--being a powerful hunter or great hero will give you a lot of sway with the lizardfolk tribes--but I think the social aspects of the game will dominate. Unless you'd rather they don't.
So, with that being said, why don't we start with character creation? Here's what I'm thinking:
*25-point buy--it's going to take heroes like those from old tales to unify the lizardfolk
*Using the ARG version of lizardfolk
*I'd like to use the Automatic Bonus Progression (ABP) rules from Pathfinder Unchained--any objections?
*Starting at 6th level, with standard (for ABP) Wealth By Level
*Roll hit dice for levels past 1st, but if you roll less than half just take half.
Any questions about character creation? Any changes you'd like? This is as much your game as mine.
One last thing... since this is a more open game, how would you feel about going through something like this to generate some of the themes, NPC's, and antagonists for the game? Obviously we'd ignore the system-specific bits of that post, and probably adapt some pieces of it to better fit our circumstances, but I found it quite interesting the one time I used it, and was rather excited to play what we'd built when we finished. Would you be interested?
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I like the background you have -- having worked with human adventurers in the past. It'd be neat if they were still occasional NPCs.
Another thing to think is that perhaps one of us can be the chief lizard, and the other can be a non-lizardman advisor of some sort. That would bring in some tension with the other lizardfolk.
Agreed that the social aspects will be more important than combat, particularly as the kingdom is built. I do like combining the individual roleplaying with the "big picture" planning of the Ultimate Campaign kingdom building. (There's a 3pp "Ultimate Rulership" that has some expansions to that -- although the expansions may have been to the original system in Kingmaker rather than the somewhat changed one in Ultimate Campaign.) Using the Ultimate Intrigue social rules sounds fine.
I'm very happy with the ABP from Unchained. It fixes the "christmas three" problem of more or less being required to use your headband and/or belt slot on a stat booster as you get to higher levels, instead of something more fun and flavorful.
The Heroville Pathways looks interesting; let me spend some more time with it.
Hello!
Hmm... Having some ties to the outside world might be interesting. Or maybe one of us (probably the chief) stayed behind, while the other went out adventuring and brought back new ideas, but can't implement them himself because the other lizardfolk don't necessarily trust someone who's been out among warm-bloods for so long? Definitely want to have some nicely fleshed out backgrounds for this.
ABP sounds nice, though I'll have to look up just how it works.
Social aspects will probably start out less important, but get more important as the kingdom grows. (Also, I tend to get better at the social kind of stuff after having some time to do character building).
Pathways looks interesting. Definitely going to need some kind of chart or something to keep all the relationships and such straight.
In terms of character ideas, right now I'm debating between doing a Hunter or an Hydrokineticist. But I might change my mind.
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How about a Magus for the chief? He's going to need to be able to do some physical one-on-one type combat to be able to impress the other would-be-alpha males, but he's also very much into lore and learning, which is part of what led him into wanting to try bringing some of whole civilization thing to his tribe.
Aside: Almonihah, can you create the Gameplay thread? I'd like to dot it so this game will show up in my list of campaigns.
Okay, I think I shall make a lizardfolk Hyrdokineticist. Probably left the tribe to go on an adventuring/vision quest when his distinctly unusual powers started manifesting.
Oh, let's use Background skills, as well. Always nice for smaller groups to have more skill points.
I went ahead and created a gameplay thread.
I'm probably not going to go strictly with the Ultimate Campaign kingdom building rules. Mostly I think I'll avoid a lot of the random factors, or at least have them depend more heavily on your role-playing. I'm still debating on the details, but that's the general idea. Also, some things will need to be tweaked for lizardfolk, anyway.
For Pathways, if we do go with that, I'll be tweaking it to fit the campaign more closely. So the questions would be more along the lines of "Why did you leave your tribe" instead of the generic superhero ones they have. If we do it, I'll create a Google Drawings page for us to stick our shapes and lines on. Want to give it a try? It could help nail down your characters and their relationship.
A Magus would be an interesting choice for a chief. You could think of being an Eldritch Scion--your innate magic could well be what drove you to seek out learning. Or you could have been curious about magic and left to learn among humans, of course. Up to you. Just throwing out some ideas.
This is definitely sounding like it will be interesting. :)
A few questions about your tribe to talk about, too:
1) What is your tribe known for (among other tribes)? Are your warriors known for their skill at arms? Are your people known to be close to the spirits? Is your territory known for being bountiful with fish? This will be useful both to inform your backstories and to form the basis of your future nation.
2) What kind of chiefs usually lead your tribe? The greatest warrior? The wisest shaman? The best hunter?
3) Looking through what lizardfolk lore there is, and thinking about tribal cultures, I've decided that each lizardfolk tribe claims decent from an ancient clan. Meeting a tribe claiming decent from the same clan is sort of like meeting a distant relative--there's a certain feeling of kinship, but it's not close.
Each clan bears the name of an ancient hero who supposedly formed the clan. So the question is, who was this ancient hero? What sorts of deeds do you reenact around the evening fires to commemorate his victories?
4) You're welcome to suggest names for your tribe and clan, or I can come up with them.
Character done!
Still need to work on backstory, but that will probably be at least in part a collaborative effort.
Hmmm.... Not sure if I have an opinion on tribe or chief preferences yet. I'll have to mull it over more. I could generate some clan/tribe/hero names though. Maybe we could each submit a few and pick out the best ones?
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How about this for the chiefs who lead the tribe: there's long been a sort of power struggle between the brainy side and the brawny side. On the brainy side was mostly the wisest shamans, the occasional sorcerer. On the brawn side was more traditional warrior type.
My charater (Serrask) has managed to help unify both sides by displaying prowess with both forms of study.
How about Zervallint and Serrask were childhood friends, growing up together. Zervallint showed his innate psychic connection to water early on, and Serrask was a bit jealous. That lead him to trying to compensate for not having natural gifts by studying and working out all the time, leading him to being a Magus.
Serrask will have stayed home with the tribe, moving up and eventually becoming chief, perhaps recently. Zervallint went off to adventure with humans and other smooth-skins (they all look the same; some are shorter; you can't ever tell the males from the females, they all smell the same). He will have brought back the ideas of bringing "civilization" to the lizardfolk, and Serrask, having studied a form of wizardry (perhaps influenced by the Magaambya and such) was quite receptive to the idea.
-Rob
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Almonihah, you linked to this page earlier. Do you recommend that 3pp as a lizardfolk reference? What are you using for your own ideas of fleshing out lizardfolk nature and culture?
That sounds good for the chiefs. Do you want to start as chief, or would winning the chief-ship be an interesting first arc to you?
I linked to that page only for the racial stats. The best treatment I've found on lizardfolk nature and culture is in Classic Monsters Revisited, which is unfortunately not open content, but this page from the Monster Codex has a decent amount of coverage, too.
I prefer not to use the Leadership feat. Instead, you gain followers and possibly even cohort-like allies purely through role-playing. At most I'll use the Leadership feat as a guide for about how many followers you can have personally loyal to you without extraordinary effort as a leader. Does that make sense?
I think I'm going to go ahead and make a Pathways hack for this game. I'll try to have the first step ready later tonight.
That does sound like a good solution for the chiefdom question. It also adds a facet where the two factions will probably still be present, and weighing the advice and requests from the head warrior and top shaman may make up some of the early politics, and lead into who your first officers might be.
Oh and that does sound like a decent basic idea for initial relationships; Zervallint started manifesting his powers early in puberty, putting stress on the initial friendship between Serrask and Zervallint as he started demonstrating strange and powerful abilities, unlike any the tribe had seen before. In order to answer his many questions about his powers, as well as to defuse confusion and unrest among the tribe concerning his abilities and what they meant for the tribe, Zervallint left the swamp and went among the warm-bloods, seeking to learn if powers like his had been seen elsewhere. When his search brought up no results, he took up with a band of adventurers for a time, seeking out ancient records and delving into forgotten places for clues. But the only answers he ever got were what he discovered about himself and his powers through practice and use, and the gurgling voices of the rivers and streams. Now, older, wiser, and more practiced at controlling and using his powers, as well as worried by how rare lizardfolk seemed to be in the world at large, Zervallint is returning home, having finally found an answer for himself; the time has come for the lizardfolk to change. If the lizardfolk were to survive, they must adapt, they must flow like water through the proven courses shown by the warm-bloods. But how could he, now nearly a stranger, convince the tribes to do so?
...
Well, that ended up longer than I expected. Looks like I have some backstory now! :)
Okay, I went ahead and set up the Pathways document. I threw in an antagonist (The Terwa Lords) and your tribe (The Garut Tribe), your characters, and added a link between Serrask and your tribe reflecting the fact that he's the chief.
So! What we need to do now is the first step of the Pathways thing: define the links between your two characters, and then place one theme on the board and link yourself to one of the themes. Because there's only two of you, I will allow you to place two themes if you wish. Let me know if you have any questions.
Here is the link to the Heroville Pathways post again, if you need to look up shapes.
Added a couple themes; I'll add a connection or two later.
Did you get the PM with the link to the Pathways drawing, rknop?
I have created Serrask's character sheet.
Here is the full character sheet. I've put a statblock in the profile.
You said we should use WBL. That's listed in the CRB as 16,000gp. However, the ABP bonuses are worth about 10,000gp. As such, I purchased 6,000gp of equipment. Was this right, or should I have another 10,000gp?
Ah, sorry, I should have been more clear. WBL when using ABP is half of normal WBL, so you should have 8000 gp worth of equipment.
Also, do note; Lizardfolk racial language is a dialect of Draconic.
Just wanted to say, I'm still kicking around some thoughts and ideas. I'd really like to continue the Pathways thing, though, since that will give me some ideas about what you guys would like in the game, as well as give you some control over the game world.
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Yep... I'll take a look at it tonight. I like what it's got, but I want to set aside enough time and attention to be able to pay sufficient attention to it.
Reading on lizard culture, I'm thinking that we probably shouldn't be too young. They keep growing as long as they live, so younger lizardfolk tend to be smaller. We could be extraordinary young folk trying to take over (revenge of the Lizard Millenials), of course.
As for starting with a nascent kingdom vs. starting just before it's founded, it would be interested, I think, to play the founding of the kingdom. However, I would want us to get there reasonably quickly, so that we don't have years go by before it happens.
Have you looked at Heroes of the Wild? It has some kingdom buildings in it that could be useful. They seem to be more temperate-forest focused, but still.
I actually have it, but I forgot about the buildings in it. I'll have to take a look!
Right now, I'm thinking you'll start shortly after Serrask became chief, right when Zervallint returns to the tribe. The two of you meeting after his long absence will probably be the first scene. So you'll start out with a 'kingdom' of sorts--your tribe--but you'll have to do some work to turn it from a stagnant, same-as-our-ancestors thing into a growing nation.
My thought is that you'd be not all that young, but still surprisingly young for taking leadership positions--late 30's or so. It's up to you, though.
That sounds like a good point to start at. Zervallint returning is likely to kick off the interesting stuff.
For age, I had been figuring that Zervallint was gone for a bit over ten-fifteen years or so, so in the 30's would probably be about right. I can flex if needed though.
Starting with the tribe will probably mean that we have one middling settlement to start, which sounds better than trying to start from scratch.
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I added some text, and a new NPC: Yera M'bessa.
Yera is a human, an "adventurer-scholar" associated with the Magaambya in Nantambu. He had been captured by... a rival tribe? boggars? something... that the Great Tribe had sent an expedition against for... reasons (they had also captured some young members?). Serrask was on that expedition. While others in the Great Tribe may have seen Yera as part of the spoils and something that should be part of a victory feast later, Serrask recognized Yera's arcane trappings (spell-component pouch, other items, perhaps a Magaambya "ID card" or some such), and became intrigued. He saved Yera and began to converse with him. Yera would go on to become something of a mentor to Serrask, and is the one who provided him with the arcane training.
(My idea is that book-reading arcane training is very rare among lizardfolk, who mostly have an oral tradition with their epic poetry and so forth. Shamans, sorcerers, bards (mostly non-literate), oracles, and so forth are far more common than wizards or maguses. Serrask is odd in that he's really taken to learning from this.)
Serrask has learned from Yera not just arcane matters, but also just how old and stable the softskin settlement of Nantambu is. He'd always known it had been there for a long time, but he didn't realize just how many millenia. Some lizardfolk might think that it's just as old as lizardfolk culture, but with his "book learnin'", Serrask knows that lizardfolk culture is even older. Still, it made quite an impression on him.
I figure Serrask has travelled to and spent some time at Nantambu in the past.
Looks good! It confused me for a bit before I realized that Great Tribe == Garut Tribe. :D Make sure to put a brief summary of the meaning of your characters' links in--there's too much about Yera to fit, obviously, but a few words would be good as a reminder.
Book-reading arcane training is vanishingly rare among lizardfolk, yes, so that's a good explanation.
Okay, so, next step! Think about why your character wants to break with lizardfolk tradition and make a more softskin-like society. With this in mind, do these steps:
1) Add a Secondary Character (Circle). (rknop has already done this)
2) Add a Macguffin (Pentagon).
3) Draw an arrow from your protagonist to any Circle or Pentagon.
4) Draw an arrow from any Circle or Pentagon to any protagonist.
5) Draw an arrow from any Circle or Pentagon to any Circle, Pentagon, or Triangle.
Then I'll get to add a bit to the diagram.
Feel free to move things around to make them fit properly, and remember that all links have a direction--they're how one character/group/whatever views or affects the noun pointed to.
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Great, Garut... when you get old like me and your eyes are bad, they look the same :)
Also, I have a one-character hashing algorithm for remembering things.
By the way, I couldn't figure out in Google Draw how to get an arrowhead on the end of the curved connection between Garut Tribe and Temwa Lords. I'll futz around with it a bit more later to see if I can figure that out. (This is my first time using Google Draw for anything other than moving around tokens. I usually use Libreoffice.)
Okay, I'm done with this stage now, I think.
I ended up just moving the Terwa Lords to that a straight arrow would work. :D
Don't feel constrained by the background square. We'll probably need to start spreading things out before we finish.
Done! A while ago, actually.
We could start moving on the gameplay even before we finish with the Pathways thing, and just keep building it up as we go along.
Also, revisiting some of the older questions;
For what our tribe is known for... hmm... I still can't decide yet, but it would be good to re-open the conversation.
Ancient tribe name submission: Rassh-Zatak
I keep intending to post up a map of your home territory, but keep getting distracted when I'm actually in a position to do so. :D
I could start the gameplay thread in earnest if you're both ready, yes. I think we'd start with the day Zervallint arrives back from his long absence.
I added a little image of the area your tribe lives in. It's the link in the short description under the campaign header. Your tribe, the Garut, holds the little purple blob, while the other small blobs around you are neighboring tribes. The big red blob is roughly the area the Terwa Lords control.
Are we ready to move forward to the next step, then? I'll go ahead and add my pieces in.
Okay, so I believe we're ready for the next step. Here is what each of you should do:
Think about your character’s personal ethics/code and desires. Add one of the following:
A Theme (Triangle) if your character is defined by an Ethos
A Secondary Character (Circle) if your character is motivated by care for your people (or a person)
A Macguffin (Pentagon) if your character is in pursuit of an Item
Then:
Draw an arrow from your protagonist to any Theme. Define the connection as your second Distinction.
Draw an arrow from any valid node to any protagonist.
Draw an arrow from any Circle, Pentagon, or Hexagon to any Circle, Pentagon, Hexagon, or Triangle.
Oh, since Serrask has some Knowledge (Geography), here are some tidbits that he'd know that might be important to the campaign:
* There is an empire far to the south called Droon, where lizardfolk ride dinosaurs. It's a very insular nation, so you have no idea what kind of nation it is beyond the fact that it's ruled by lizardfolk... but it is ruled by lizardfolk.
* The Sodden Lands were not always as wet as they are today. The Eye of Abendego drowned a warm-blood nation, though a few survivors cling to life in scattered settlements, and there are always scavengers coming and going. In the aftermath your kind have started slowly expanding in to the now-swampy lands, but that is further to the north of your territory, which has been lizardfolk land for centuries.
* To the south and east is the Mwangi, an ancient land, home to tribes of lizardfolk, elves, humans, apes, and many others. You've been there, of course, since you visited Magaambya. You'd also know that other 'civilized' nations have outposts along the rivers for trade... and for darker purposes.
* To the west, beyond the lands of the Terwa Lords, are the Shackles. From what you know, there are scattered ports owned by warm-bloods who live by stealing from other warm-bloods. The Terwa Lords frequently raid them.
A couple of NPC's I was thinking of. I don't think I'll add them to the Pathways, though.
--The Hunt-Leader, Serrask's 'second-in-command', is a heavily-built lizardman, skilled in battle, and was the likeliest choice for next chief before Serrask bested him. Now he serves as leader of the hunters and warriors of the tribe, and is, surprisingly, one of the chief's greatest supporters.
Or perhaps it's not surprising, as it's quite traditional for the Hunt-Leader to support the Chief no matter the circumstances.
--The Shaman, who officially advises Serrask but, by tradition, is his greatest critic. It's a tradition she seems to relish following, politely not-quite-accusing him of abandoning the ways of the ancients and listening too much to 'that warm-blood' (she seems to have a special hatred for Yera). Still, she's powerful, she's respected, and she never goes too far in her criticisms, so she hasn't yet caused problems, rather given voice to those already existing in the tribe.
Now I just need to name them... XD
Also, I'm definitely going to be tweaking the kingdom-building rules. In the first place, I don't think I'll implement the penalties for having certain offices unfilled, and I'm definitely going to tweak some buildings and so forth. I'm looking at buying Ultimate Rulership, because it does sound like it will have some things that would be useful.
Okay, I did the next step of Pathways stuff!
Hmmm... I wonder if perhaps our tribe might be known amoung other tribes for having an unusually even balance of power between the shamans, warriors and hunters, when normally one group dominates? Alternatively, perhaps the Garut have access to a rare deposit of surface minerals? Those sound interesting to me.
Great. I now have a flood of ideas and a strong urge to add more shapes and more lines, but have used up my allotment for the current stage.
Just wait until the next step. :D
I see you had our other campaign on your mind, Rknop. :D
By the way, what do you two think of the Pathways thing thus far? Do you like it? Dislike it? Don't care?
It's been helping me form some thoughts on possibilities for the campaign, which is good from my perspective.
A quick copy-paste to help you out:
Think about your character’s personal ethics/code and desires. Add one of the following:
A Theme (Triangle) if your character is defined by an Ethos
A Secondary Character (Circle) if your character is motivated by care for your people (or a person)
A Macguffin (Pentagon) if your character is in pursuit of an Item
Then:
Draw an arrow from your protagonist to any Theme.
Draw an arrow from any valid node to any protagonist.
Draw an arrow from any Circle, Pentagon, or Hexagon to any Circle, Pentagon, Hexagon, or Triangle.
Clear as mud? :D
I'm enjoying it. Though I think I will need more practice before I'm really good at it.
Eh, it happens. If you know ahead of time it's nice to get a warning, but I know sometimes you don't know until it's happening that you'll be too busy to post.
Okay, so, I think this is the status of this campaign:
*The 'getting back together' RP thread is going well
*We're a little over halfway done with the Pathways thing. I've bolded the most recent step--if you scroll up until you see something bold, you should see what the current step is.
*I owe you guys a hex map for kingdom building purposes. I thought I had a copy of Campaign Cartographer lying around somewhere, but I can't seem to find it... I may have to find an alternative.
*I've also bought Ultimate Rulership (actually a pack of all of the Ultimate kingdom-building expansions), and I'm reading through it.
*I've been debating over adjustments to make to the kingdom-building to reflect the differences between human and lizardfolk society. I really need to make a document or something to store these in once I've decided on them.
Am I missing anything?