Kingmaker AP - War of the Red River! (Inactive)

Game Master Haldhin

Mmm, not the hair I picture him going with, but he's got that taldan complexion. Still good work

As for the theme, I'd leave it pretty open. For example, if all flowers, each person picks what sort of flower (Rose was just one example) they would have for their seat and no two would be quite the same. Ditto for trees. One might take oak, another might take Pine, another pc might take Willow.

Well if we go with tree's. Here is what I would give each of us. Symbolism drove my choices I assure you. ;)

Bridgette the Elm
Raxus the Holly
Arianna the Elder
Bydar the Apple
Temerith the Birch
Arumil the Willow

More then one of us applies to a few but I figured the closest match. Personally not feeling the tree theme myself.

I don't have a lot of male hair styles for Daz (I only have 5) and went with the one closest to your avatar's hair style, I'm hoping I selected the right hair color though.

One style is a Duke Nukem Cut

Well if we go with tree's. Here is what I would give each of us. Symbolism drove my choices I assure you. ;)

Bridgette the Elm
Raxus the Holly
Arianna the Elder
Bydar the Apple
Temerith the Birch
Arumil the Willow

More then one of us applies to a few but I figured the closest match. Personally not feeling the tree theme myself.

Ah, I thought you might like the tree theme for the elven touches.

I'm open to other themes, trees and flowers were just examples.

I don't have a lot of male hair styles for Daz (I only have 5) and went with the one closest to your avatar's hair style, I'm hoping I selected the right hair color though.

One style is a Duke Nukem Cut

I feel guilty saying this, but it has a bit more red in it than I imagined.

We got Two choices;
vote on the form of Government,
or
we discuss it at length.

odds are high that not everyone will get what they want in either case.

So I'm guessing your hair is closer brown?
And it's not problem, changing hair is easy with the presets and adjustable tinting.

Raxus isn't real big on symbolism. Not yet, anyway. He'd probably appreciate the concept once he understands it better, but even then, I think he'd be more interested in creating a kingdom founded on ideas that are accessible and understandable even to very simple folk.

Raxus would basically build a nation founded on the Mr. Rogers school of political philosophy.

It sounds like the only one who's really against the idea of a monarchy is Arumil. The rest of us don't mind it and are just discussing the semantics of exactly what kind of monarchy it would be.

This is Kingmaker after all.

Closer Brown *nod*

Bydar_R1

Much more like I visualized, thank you.

No Problem,

now I can get the group shot ready. (I'll likely do a few)

Group Shot 1
Front view, so persepective does not distort representation of height

Wow. That really puts things in perspective. Ari's so little. :)

Group Shot 1

Front view, so persepective does not distort representation of height

Wow I feel short :) I need to hang around smaller people. Oh look, gnomes!

For now, I would like people to think about two topics:

1. How would you like this realm to be known? Awesomemccoolsville is right out, so don't ask. :)

Well there goes my first choice! I suppose "Arianna-land" is a no-go as well. :p

I like the thought of a name derived from Arthurian legend. How about 'Avalon' (or the Welsh spelling 'Afallon'), or 'Caerleon' (Welsh 'Caerllion'). Or 'Sarras', the mystical island to which the Holy Grail is brought in the Arthurian legend.

2. How do you want to handle leadership of the realm? I'm fine with whatever the group wants to do, but the default is to pick the most eligible character and appoint them as ruler.

In the same vein as the realm-name question, I like Raxus' suggestion of the Arthurian Round Table for the government. The Ruler handles the day to day rulership responsibilities for the realm, but big decisions are brought before the table where each member (including the Ruler) has an equal say - with the final decision based on majority vote. If there are an even number of council members, then the Ruler gets to be the tie-breaker.

As far as who will fill the Ruler position, I'd be in favor of either Bydar or Raxus. I see Arianna serving best as either Spymaster, Grand Diplomat, or Councilor. Or Royal Assassin... ;)

A few more names for the Kingdom;

Arche Koeln -> German (Colony Ark)
Caerleon Medb -> Fort of Legions, Mead
Hy Brasail -> a legendary paradise thought to exist during the Middle Ages
Morrigu -> the original Irish spelling of the name Morgana, and refers to the Celtic goddess (or trio of goddess - Morrigu, Babd and Macha) of death, battle, and in some cases, life/rebirth.
Sif Berg -> The Golden Maidens

Great discussion, sorry I haven't been more active, but I have been reading and considering everyone's comments and suggestions.

Government Roles & Characters
Raxus is correct, government roles don't require specific criteria for characters to be effective/successful. The rules do contain provisions for bonuses to the realm based on ability scores of characters in the roles though. For example, the RAW gives a bonus to the realm equal to a character's STR or CHA score in the General role. So a sorcerer with a 20 CHA would be a "better" fit than a fighter with an 18 STR.

My plan is to change the way these realm bonuses work so nobody feels like the realm is getting punished if you don't min-max character-role selections.

On becoming nobility
Upon receiving the patent of nobility, your liege lord would be the leader of Brevoy (typically a King, but currently a Regent). Characters must take oaths of loyalty and agree to serve the liege as part of becoming a noble.

In gameplay, this won't mean much. The Regent isn't going to come down to your realm and start giving you orders. But certain situations may arise that cause you to question exactly what your oaths mean to you, and how much (or how far) you're willing to go to abide by, or ignore, your obligations when you make decisions.

If characters do not want to take the oaths of nobility, then that's okay too. But there will be repercussions. Getting to become a noble is a BIG DEAL and refusing such an honor is usually viewed as an insult. Even if the liege himself doesn't see it as such, many of his minions and servants would.

In the same vein as the realm-name question, I like Raxus' suggestion of the Arthurian Round Table for the government. The Ruler handles the day to day rulership responsibilities for the realm, but big decisions are brought before the table where each member (including the Ruler) has an equal say - with the final decision based on majority vote. If there are an even number of council members, then the Ruler gets to be the tie-breaker.

I think this is the best idea I've seen, it seems to hit all the notes that everyone has mentioned, and I think it would work well for this group. I also really like Bydar's idea of a "theme" for the council.

I don't know if it matters, but you are already gaining a reputation in the region as The Liberators. Perhaps you could use that as a basis for your realm's theme? I could see the "ruler" being Grand Liberator, with the other members of the council holding Seats of Freedom, Honesty, Justice, Integrity, Determination, etc. Focus on values that the council wants to uphold in the realm. Or even combine this with another idea - the Seat of Oak, which means Integrity.

Just an idea, feel free to use or discard as desired.

Location Names
Don't forget you're also going to have other locations to name. Your capital city, other settlements, important structures like forts or guard towers.

Loose Ends
The giant ants and the kobold war are not intended to be solved in this adventure.

Your current loose ends are:
1. Finish exploring (you've got like 8 hexes to go)
2. Deal with Bridgette's situation
3. The boggard that you avoided
4. Confronting the Stag Lord

Finishing #4 effectively ends this adventure.

Everything else going on in this region is either moving in the background or is beyond your abilities to affect right now.

-----

I'll have Gameplay updated later today.

My eyes! ;-)

On my phone so a proper reply will come later.

Arumil knows boggard now so once we set out again he is good to tackle that loose end. Personally I would want to deal with the stag lord last on our current list.

How about Bastion? It has an old-world feel to the word while still being direct and meaningful, even to those who only speak the common tongue.

I love the idea of basing our kingdom around the concept of Liberty. That's a fantastic unifying theme. It's even a great name for our eventual capital.

We haven't really gotten to it, but your group has pretty much exemplified the Six River Freedoms - the unofficial code that governs the lives and actions of people in the Stolen Lands. I'll post them below just for review - they don't really come into play until you start leading your realm.

The Six River Freedoms are:

Say What You Will, I Live Free
This is the freedom of speech (and not to be confused with freedom from the consequences of your words). Criticism of government is common in the kingdoms, and lords of the kingdoms who are lenient with loose tongues are likely to live longer. Bards take special advantage of this freedom, and spells like silence are viewed in a harsh negative light.

Oathbreakers Die
Making an oath is a huge deal for the people of the River Kingdom (where trust is hard to come by, and earned in blood), and this freedom grants the people of the kingdoms leave to persecute anyone person that breaks an oath. Riverfolk who take on oaths usually keep them, or die trying. This freedom can have some constricting side effects on traders and businessmen, who are loath to make strict commitments or promises.

Walk Any Road, Float Any River
This freedom blocks prevents of the river kingdoms from blocking travel over land and water, including charging tolls for passage. The fate of the town of Heibarr is sometimes uses as a salutary tale of what can happen if the third freedom is disrupted.

(Heibarr was destroyed when they tried to tax people using the river that flowed through their town)

Courts Are For Kings
One of the most basic freedoms of the River Kingdoms, this one holds that all laws within the river kingdom are flexible, and that rulers of a kingdom may do as they wish. Visitors to a river kingdom -- be they king or commoner -- are bound by the (often arbitrary) laws of that kingdom. Consequently rulers of the different kingdoms infrequently visit each other, and instead rely on liasons and intermediaries. The exception to this is the annual Outlaw Council.

Slavery is an Abomination
Escaped slaves are an important fact of life in the River Kingdom. A slave that escapes to the River Kingdoms is considered truly free. By some estimates, more than a third of all people living in the River Kingdoms are either escaped slaves or children of escaped slaves. Thousands of slaves make their way to the River Kingdoms annually and fiercely defend their newfound freedoms. Hellknights of the Order of the Chain are unable to hold office in the River Kingdoms, and Andoran Eagle Knights are held in special regard by its people.

You Have What You Hold
This freedom draws the moral distinction between stealing and robbery. In the River Kingdoms, it is more preferable to face your robber, to be allowed the opportunity to resist (and perhaps to repossess!). It is acceptable (and perhaps worthy of praise) to take what you want by force.

On becoming nobility
Upon receiving the patent of nobility, your liege lord would be the leader of Brevoy (typically a King, but currently a Regent). Characters must take oaths of loyalty and agree to serve the liege as part of becoming a noble.

In gameplay, this won't mean much. The Regent isn't going to come down to your realm and start giving you orders. But certain situations may arise that cause you to question exactly what your oaths mean to you, and how much (or how far) you're willing to go to abide by, or ignore, your obligations when you make decisions.

If characters do not want to take the oaths of nobility, then that's okay too. But there will be repercussions. Getting to become a noble is a BIG DEAL and refusing such an honor is usually viewed as an insult. Even if the liege himself doesn't see it as such, many of his minions and servants would.

This could be a major problem for Arumil. He is lawful so he tends to keep any rules he sets down. The up side, he is neutral so these rules are mostly his own. But I find it hard to see him ignoring or working against those he has given an oath to. Maybe he could carefully word the oath so it does not constrain him in any way. Otherwise he will have to just refuse. He would not give an oath to anyone he has met so far, much less a regent who does not even have the full support of his own people. :Z

As far as the proposed theme. I don't think Arumil would fit in any. xP

Except for the last one, and the "arbitrary" part of the 4th one, that's pretty much Raxus' personal beliefs.

He's just not a fan of "might makes right"

So Six basic rules exist in the river kingdoms,

Nobility is great, but comes with some chains, nice touch there.
We still need to select a name for the kingdom.

I thought there were 4 loose ends to clean up in this part, but two were for later.

A more Fun based group shot

Everyone is so bulgy, must be all that monster killing really works you out. xP

You using the Guide to the River Kingdoms, DM?

The six freedoms are tricky. Not clear cut at all the way I read it.

So what names are up for the realm? I am partial to latin and word/letter mixing myself.

Current list of names put forward.
With meanings if possible
Aura -> Means distinctive atmosphere or illumination.
Aurora -> Means "dawn" in Latin
Valeria -> Means "To be Strong"

Corbenik -> Means Blessed Body, also the name of the castle in Authurian legend that held the Holy Grail
Arche Koeln -> German (Colony Ark)
Caerleon -> Fort of Legions
Hy Brasail -> a legendary paradise thought to exist during the Middle Ages
Morrigu -> the original Irish spelling of the name Morgana, and refers to the Celtic goddess (or trio of goddess - Morrigu, Babd and Macha) of death, battle, and in some cases, life/rebirth.
Sif Berg -> The Golden Maidens

Avalon
Sarras
Bastion

Should have raised the camera for that shot,
as I think it's 4 foot and a bit off the ground.
So about Gnomes' height, about 15 feet away

For some reason I just thought Avalon Bastion. Maybe its from a game or something I played once. Maybe not and its just one of those things that stick in your head. x3

Love the group pic!

Although it looks like Bydar is up to something...

An alternate Shot From a Human Perspective

Camera is about 6 feet off the ground

Group Pictures were rendered at 2400 X 1800 pixels,
But Photobucket downsized them to 1024 X 768.
And I don't mind if you download them and use picture view to view the full sized image.

Link to one that's it's full render size, Requires downloading the image

... Maybe he could carefully word the oath so it does not constrain him in any way.

Sorry, not an option. It's essentially a take it or leave it situation.

You using the Guide to the River Kingdoms, DM?

I don't know yet. Is there something specific you want to know about?

Then I guess Arumil will have to leave it. At best he would have to break away from his lawful nature if he took it. At worst he would have to side with his oath.

I was just wondering about using it as a info resource.

Your current loose ends are:

1. Finish exploring (you've got like 8 hexes to go)
2. Deal with Bridgette's situation
3. The boggard that you avoided
4. Confronting the Stag Lord

Bydar feels they've neglected #1, but then they've had to rush back for a lot of things, plague being one of them.

Bridgette's situation is one Bydar doesn't fully get, but he's almost always willing to back up a friend.

The Stag lord is the big bad we've kind of neglected. Maybe it should be last, but we can't neglect it forever.

I'm not really interested in taking names straight from real world myths. I also think it would be weird to take a word or phrase from a real world language. It would be fine if we had established something like "French=Gnomish" or "Latin=Draconic" but we haven't done that.

It would seem odd to me to pick a name that would have meaning to the players, bit would just be gibberish to the characters.

Love the group pic!

Although it looks like Bydar is up to something...

Thanks, I gave Bydar that look as he'll be the king, and since he thinks about things.

Heck I could render a few desktop backgrounds for those that want one, though I'll need the resolution and what you want in it.

Looking at the Hex Map, it's my understanding that the fey-gnome village is in the shaded hex to the right of the hex containing the spider trap. Personally, I'd like to see us finish exploring the hexes in this portion of the map while we're here (the two shaded hexes and the hexes containing Bokken's Hut, the spider trap, and the gold mine) and the shaded hex immediately to the left of the trading post's hex before we head back to Oleg's (if we have time before the next tribute to Howl-in-the-North is due). Either that or deal with Bridgette's situation now and then explore the hexes listed above. Once we've dealt with Bridgette's situation and explored, then we can decide whether to deal with the boggard or the Stag Lord next.

I can respect Raxus' desire not to take names from real world myths or languages. In that case, I'd suggest naming our fledgling nation "Haven", and possibly naming the capital "Bastion".

Of course, I still wouldn't say no to calling the nation "Arianna-land"... ;)

While Arianna land is awesome, I think our DM is agin it ;)

While I like a lot of Bridgette's suggestions, I want us to all be pretty happy with the name. Two I thought of that I hope have good reasons:

Oleanna (A mix of Oleg and Svetlana's names to honor our hosts and the first honest settlers of these lands)

Brevelle (Because it is born of Brevoy, this name is similar enough to show that, different enough to stand on its own)

Haven or New Haven might be good names for one our cities but I'm not sure I'm crazy about it for the country name. It's just too on the nose for me.

Actually let's look at Real world languages and see which one's could match up with ones Are Characters know.

ie
Skald could be -> Old Norse, German, Slavic, Dutch, and or Russian.

Draconic could be -> Latin, or Albanian.

Gnome could be Quebecer French.

Common would have to be English.

And limit the names based on the languages that we know.

Sadly as far as I know the Inner sea does not have a language we can draw from, besides English. The names of nearly all the cites in the setting and such are in fact gibberish, so this should not stop us from making up a name. It just means we will have to create the meaning among our PCs in game for that name. After all my PCs name and a lot of names in general don't mean anything of themselves. Try these, I can make plenty but their not really from a "real" language or anything.

Rylolgagh- Roughly means Mithral Strong Gate
Solanam- Roughly means History/Memory Maker
Haelrin- Roughly means Free Walker

P.S. Don't try to find a translation, I would be surprised if you could. ::Pushes book back into bookcase:: ;)

I'd suggest naming our fledgling nation "Haven", and possibly naming the capital "Bastion".

I like it, but I think Bydar might have a point. Haven seems more like a city name than a country name. So does Bastion.

Using language-analogues is good idea. There's a lot of words that mean the same thing across more than one language (Liberty, for example, is both english and french)

If we're going with a freedom theme, it could work to just go whole-hog and name our kingdom something like Liberation.

I like Raxus' idea. So plugging 'Liberty' into Google Translate, we get:

Dutch: Vrijheid
Finnish: Vapaus
German: Freiheit
Hungarian: Szabadsag
Icelandic: Frelsis
Irish: Saoirse
Polish: Wolnosc
Russian: Svoboda

I think any of those could work.

That's not Bad Arianna,

Though I'll admit I still like some of my suggestions;
Corbenik and Arche Koeln.

What about the words; Freedom, Honour and Duty?
And we should pick something pronounceable to all of us.

Made a new Render of us with some NPCs so we know who's taller than who.
Cast So far, and to come?
Need to make a few more NPCs (Jhod, Keston,)

What would those languages correspond to in-game?

What are the common languages of the stolen lands?

It seems to me that we should name the land (and the places in it) in a language spoken by the majority of the populace. When people found new places to live, they don't tend to name them in languages they don't speak themselves.

According to the ISWG Common and Hallit are the languages spoken in the river kingdoms. Sense I do not think they consider the fey and other "monsters" of the region. I would say Sylvan, Aklo, Draconic, and maybe Boggard would be strong contenders for the region as well.

I don't think it could be limited to just those

as you are forgetting history, When America was being colonised did the settlers make the colony adapt to the foreign tongue?
No, The colony used it's Mother tongue.

So I think a few more languages could go on the list.

Um in this case Common is the "mother tongue" but its already on the list. What language are you referring to?

What other languages do the PC's know (Besides Common)

Me -> Skald, Sylvan,
Arumil -> Elven, Draconic, Celestial, Goblin, Orc, Undercommon, Aklo, Boggard, Sylvan,
Arianna -> Aklo, Boggard, Draconic, Giant, Gnome, Sylvan
Raxus -> Draconic, Giant,
Bydar -> Elven, Celestial,
Temerith -> Infernal

The question was what are the languages of the stolen lands. Not the languages we may bring to it. That's why I did not throw in elven, their is no real elven presence in the river kingdoms or the stolen lands. That I know of anyways. :)

But now that I think about it, giant may need to be added. Their are a lot of giant speakers in the river kingdoms. Normally they eat you rather then talk to you but still.

On another related thought, whatever we name the country... how do folks feel about a Unicorn on our heraldry? They seem associated with pretty much everything we'd want: Purification, the Fae, and , of course, a freedom of spirit.

How do the unicorns in the area feel about that?

Cause as pure as they are, they are kinda scary when pissed. Just saying. xP

Heraldry is the crest or symbol of the country, right?

Unicorn is not bad, But I think it's been a bit overused.
Attack on Titan, Division Crests

But then, I don't think Unicorn is the only one that's been a bit overused.