So I accidently TPK'd my party. For the second (and a half) time. They initially TPK'd on Eryllium, they lost another 3 people to the Thistletop bridge (checking for traps is apparently really hard), and then they got captured by Ripnugget.
I have a party of 5 players, 2 of whom this is their first game. The other 3 have at least one full campaign under their belt if not more.
I can admit I'm not the easiest GM to play under (I play monsters to their tactics and intelligence), but Runelords is shaping up to be a lot deadlier than I thought it would be.
What is everybody elses experience with the difficulty in Runelords? We are currently at Thistletop with the party just being captured by Ripnugget.
(I play monsters to their tactics and intelligence), but Runelords is shaping up to be a lot deadlier than I thought it would be.
I haven't spied on your game, but this would be my worry right here. Are you playing goblins to THEIR rather limited and questionable intelligence and tactics, or to your own (almost certainly more sensible) tactics and intelligence?
These goblins were dumb enough to lug a horse across a swinging bridge, for Pete's sake. These guys hide in ovens and drown in half-filled water barrels. They really shouldn't be using sensible defensive tactics, if at all possible.
Given that Ripnugget has captured them (and given that his goblins thought it would be a good idea to bring a warhorse for him to fight once before), I could easily see them thinking it was a 'great idea' to let the PCs recover somewhat, and force them to fight the mighty Ripnugget himself! Something utterly dumb like that is just what goblins would consider a good idea.
Heck, they'd probably take insult if one of their more sensible allies suggested that just KILLING the party would be a good idea. What's the fun in that?
I agree with the above posters, but I'm also going to question the players' tactics: Are they just a "make as much noise as we want, kick down the next door and kill whatever is in there" group? Because that'll lead to TPKs every time in the APs.
The APs are designed for 'reasonable' builds, but even more so 'reasonable' players who use stealth, tactics, and low-level spells like Grease and Silence to sneak their way around the major fights. (I'd claim the APs can manage non-optimal builds, but our non-optimal Carrion Crown party is headed for a TPK on Sunday and we all know it's coming, so we're just planning on building better-optimized PCs for our next batch. So much for my charismatic and high-DEX but low-CON fighter! I will miss him!)
Various spoilers from various APs:
In book 2 the party has to infiltrate a temple of Urgathoa. My party used Silence to keep themselves quiet and summoned grappling creatures to prevent anyone from spreading the alarm, and had a cake walk of the whole thing. That temple has led to many a TPK because the as-written tactics have a nigh-unkillable army gather to ambush the PCs if they set off the alarm. You could argue that an AP that kills so many parties is poorly-written, but many non-optimized parties survive by stealth, and optimized parties win the fight anyway.
Again in book 2, there's a bridge going over a chasm, and it's obviously trapped. Once you reach the middle, an erinyes gets summoned and kills the PC on the bridge. Our rogue was pissed off at the GM and tried to dart across the bridge with no precautions, and died a horrible death. Had we spent 10-15 minutes preparing, I can think of several ways the rogue could have survived. (Buff spells to boost his AC, Invisibility, a rope so he could just jump off the bridge and flee to healing, etc.) So again, the, "I'm just going to cross the bridge because the AP would never put in anything that just kills a character outright," is not a correct assumption.
Thistletop is another great example. If you gather all the enemies in one spot, they'll kill the party. As noted above, this really violates goblin idiocy, but if the party insists on letting everyone know they're there, the PCs really can't object to the enemies reacting. I had everyone in the underground section set up an ambush at the stairs, arming themselves with bows and crossbows while in cover behind an overturned table. The party sent a Silent Image with Ghost Sound ahead of them to take the initial volley, then charged in to engage hand-to-hand while the enemies had bows out. If the party had just charged in without the Silent Image, I would have had an easy TPK.
In short, I don't know your group, and I'm going to agree that if you focus on optimized tactics for the enemies instead of their as-written tactics, you'll get an occasional TPK.
But for fights like the Erylium one worry me, because Tsuto's journal gives you forewarning that there's a quasit there, and a bit of research (there's a bookstore in town, after all) is all the party needs to find out that they'd better get some cold iron arrows to take her down. There's a whole thread on her, and I must confess it depresses me a bit to see how many parties get Tsuto's note and go down there anyway, only to learn that with no missile weapons they're really hosed...
So I accidently TPK'd my party. For the second (and a half) time. They initially TPK'd on Eryllium, they lost another 3 people to the Thistletop bridge (checking for traps is apparently really hard), and then they got captured by Ripnugget.
I have a party of 5 players, 2 of whom this is their first game. The other 3 have at least one full campaign under their belt if not more.
I can admit I'm not the easiest GM to play under (I play monsters to their tactics and intelligence), but Runelords is shaping up to be a lot deadlier than I thought it would be.
What is everybody elses experience with the difficulty in Runelords? We are currently at Thistletop with the party just being captured by Ripnugget.
Wait until the next module. I will predict twice the number of deaths.
My party has just started the assault on Thistletop. I'm uncertain about how it'll go for them. Gogmurt pretty much told them where to go and to be careful with the bridge, but so far they've demonstrated an amazing ability to not listen to any NPC-given advice.
After the gnome passed over without incident (disguised as a goblin...) they didn't even bother checking if there was anything funny with the bridge. Unsurprisingly (to me) the trap triggered.
Only one character actually fell though, and he had a rather humorous way of avoiding the water:
He was the only one paranoid enough to suspect something. So he had a rope tied around himself with the other end attached to a crossbow bolt with a grappling hook. The moment the bridge fell he took the shot and swung to safety. xD
So far they've been fighting outside (and on top of!) the fortress. They'll be heading inside later this week.
Regarding Erylium and the catacombs:
The fight was more annoying then difficult, for my party. The shortage of ranged weapons and the fact that the opponent was mostly invisible made it rather irritating and drawn out. The biggest threat the party faced during the fight was when she summoned three riding dogs (the list I used wasn't quite up to date, I later realized). Them dogs hurt pretty bad.
People some times just get caught up in the excitement and don't think things through. My group is moderately optimized and they also have 25 years of gaming a piece. Yet they read Tsuto's journal and never looked into what the heck a Quasit is. Then Erylium escaped to hound them at every chance. After that I talked to a few of my players who I see outside of game regularly and told them straight up they have to look for clues more. Generally there is something in the AP to give them an edge and they should always look for it. They have taken that advice to heart and now the spell caster actually charms prisoners to question after capture.... It has turned somethings around. I would not hesitate to inform my players that this is not a hack n slash adventure. Although from my experience a fairly balanced and optimized party will stumble here or there but, still be ok..
Im using baby gloves with my group. 4 newbies. Dont be afraid to drop hints at things their characters can do. They r having w blast and love it so far and they r only in part 2 of chapter 1. Congrats paizo u got your hooks in more people lol :p
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I had a near TPK at the bridge in our session this week as well. I felt bad because the skill monkey PC alchemist is also the least experienced (and youngest) player among a bunch of older players. Not sure why he, or the other players, never thought to test the bridge? One PC hit the water and it all went downhill from there for her with the Swim / drowning checks, etc. Eventually I had the PC wash into the sea cave to avoid death. Its easier to pull punches from behind the DM screen with to hit rolls and damage but when a player continuously fails DC checks it is harder to intervene without appearing too benevolent.