Discussion thread! Here are my initial notes for your characters and profiles.
Eindrid Lawspeaker
-Go for the Bard/Cavalier build. It helps that you're the one Cavalier archetype that doesn't need a mount. XD
-There are no Cavalier Orders in the Northlands. For that matter, there's no real legal system. Check the Government part in the Info tab - basically, though, households rely on their own resources to deal with problems, and nobody really enforces laws beyond their own house. I think you will need to change your backstory a bit - I would take out things along the lines of enforcing laws (because of how the Northlands work), and focus more on interpretation and persuading people (which fits in MUCH better). Also, reflavor the Order to something - maybe a personal interest in seeing traditions upheld (although be mindful of stepping into things that aren't your business). Remember, nobody in the North hires adventurers to get things done - they send members of their own household.
Hakon Grunson
-As mentioned in the thread, Rogues should be scout types. Traps are pretty rare in the North, and thieves are... not tolerated much. Wilderness explorers, though? Much more likely to succeed. The Scout and Survivalist archetypes are good choices here.
-If you're interested, there's a Huscarl archetype for Fighters. Right now, you're more of a Huscarl-in-training, but it's certainly flavorful (and appropriate, as one of the book's archetypes).
Laralai
-You're the High Caster for this game. You can grab another Magic Talent and buff up your Caster Level.
-Your Skills should be in alphabetical order.
-Where did the Dwarf bit in your type come from?
-Check the Campaign Info tab. You can either keep your bonus spells, OR take the Sphere Witch's Patron Magic ability instead. (This is in Spheres' Expanded Options - if you don't have that, drop me a PM and I'll send you everything you need to know)
-You should have a last name. Family is important. XD
Everyone:
-Read the Campaign Info tab before you continue working on your profiles. All of it, because it's all relevant. Pay particularly close attention to the Useful Skills section down at the bottom - all of the skills listed there are good choices for this game, and you are highly unlikely to regret taking them.
- Huh. Wasn't expecting that. OK, shall buff.
- Noted.
- I used Umbriak's profile as a template. Must have missed that one.
- I haven't got the Expanded Options.
- Any suggestions for a family name that would tie into the plot? Otherwise I'll think of something...
Thanks for the pick, GM. Excited to be on board. I'm going to spend a little time reading the Campaign Info, and then will put together my crunch for your review. At the moment I've just got a blank sheet under this alias. Your suggestions sound good - I'll definitely look into those.
Jarls keep many skilled men and women in their households, from the lowliest of stable boys to the elite warriors that are the huscarls. A huscarl has sworn to serve, to obey his jarl, and to protect his jarl with his life.
More than just bodyguards, huscarls are the most trusted men and women in a jarl’s household, the only ones that a jarl can turn to when in dire straits. Because of this, all huscarls must be honorable and just, as well as dutiful and obedient, and thus of lawful alignment.
The primary task of a huscarl is to protect his jarl. This is more than simply standing by during feasts or in battle; huscarls are expected to be proactive in their defense of the jarl and his family. Because of this, huscarls are not permitted to marry, and one that brings a child into the world and acknowledges it loses much honor and often his position. In return for this sacrifice and service, huscarls are the first to receive rings from their jarl, are fed, armored, and armed at the jarl’s expense, and can expect to live a comfortable life. A huscarl who has grown too old to serve is often allowed to leave his oath and is set up with some form of support for the remainder of his days.
Even retired, there are many tales of aged huscarls coming forth for one last fight, to stop some hidden plot, or simply to die beside their jarl in glorious combat.
Feats marked with an asterisk (*) are presented later in this chapter (i.e. down below).
Center of the Wall (Ex): At 1st level, a huscarl may make full use of the Shield Wall, Shielded Caster, Shieldwall Breaker*, Swine’s Head*, and Swap Places teamwork feats even if his ally does not have these feats. He gains one of those feats as a bonus feat provided he meets the prerequisites for it in addition to his regular fighter bonus feats. [GM Note: I recommend Shield Wall.]
Loyal unto Death (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever a huscarl’s jarl, his jarl’s family, or other sworn companions are threatened, he gains the Bodyguard and In Harm’s Way feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites, for the duration of the combat.
Delayed Armor Training (Ex): A huscarl does not gain armor training at 3rd level. Instead, at 7th level you gain armor training 1. Every four levels thereafter (11th, and 15th), armor training increases by 1.
Delayed Weapon Training (Ex): A huscarl does not gain weapon training at 5th level. Instead, at 9th level you gain weapon training 1, and this increases every four levels thereafter (12th and 16th). You may only choose the following weapon groups for weapon training: axes, heavy blades, close, and spears.
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Feats:
Shieldwall Breaker (Combat)
You are skilled at breaking the shieldwall formations of others.
Prerequisites: Shield Wall, Base Attack Bonus +5
Benefit: Make a bull rush or charge action against one member of a shieldwall. If you succeed in your attack, that person and the shieldwall members to the immediate left and right of him lose any bonus from the Shield Wall feat until the end of your next turn. However, if part of a shieldwall, you also lose your bonus from that feat until the end of the next turn.
Swine’s Head (Teamwork, Combat)
You are skilled in the rare but deadly Swine’s Head formation, a flying wedge of heavily armed Northlands warriors.
Prerequisites: Shield Wall, Shieldwall Breaker
Benefit: You may run or charge and still enjoy the benefits of the Shield Wall feat.
Yeah, Bard also meshes better than Skald with this party, no doubt.
Hmm. I was going with standard Viking law, which was definitely more centralized (because kings and things). The continued existence of Things in the Northlands implies some communal law, though probably based more on personal arguments than specific codes, so I'll try to reflect that more.
I was thinking "Order of the Scales" could either be a personal code of ethics, or a representation of being a lay clergyman of Tyr (Tiwaz) and thus paladin-like religious beliefs. If that's still too centralized, I can swap it out for good ol' Ronin.
As for last names—Eindrid would officially be "Einar Eindrid," but he prefers to introduce himself as "Lawspeaker." He has chosen to abandon his original family name, because of the shame associated with it, which might put him at a bit of a disadvantage if anyone asks who his family are, though Eindrid is still a proper Viking name (and roughly means "Lone Ranger").
EDIT: As a 3/4 caster, I don't worry about any magic until level 2, right?
Alright. Minor tweaks as I crunched the character (drawback is now that his Jotun blood interferes with his sense of balance; this does some minor crunching, basically means at higher levels his social skills will be more uniform instead of some min and some max)
Need to pick a Tactician feat; my personal favorite is usually Shake it Off, but if Laralai plans on taking Combat Reflexes, it might make more sense to pick an AoO teamwork feat.
Casting: The sphere bard may combine spheres and talents to create magical effects. The sphere bard is considered a Mid-Caster and uses Charisma as his casting ability modifier. (Note: All casters gain 2 bonus talents and may select a casting tradition the first time they gain the casting class feature.) This replaces the spells class feature.
Spell Pool: The sphere bard gains a small reservoir of energy she can call on to create truly wondrous effects, called a spell pool. This pool contains a number of spell points equal to her level + her Charisma modifier (minimum: 1). This pool replenishes once per day after roughly 8 hours of rest.
Magic Talents: A sphere bard gains 1 magic talent every time she gains a caster level.
Recommended Casting Tradition: The classic feel of the bard can be recreated through taking the verbal casting and somatic casting drawbacks.
You gain your first two Magic Talents right away. Additional talents, as noted above, are acquired when you gain a Caster Level.
I'm going to be going with the Huscarl archetype, and thus will be taking the Shield Wall feat.
Quote:
Spears thrust over the shields, with the front rank either keeping two hands on their shields or otherwise wielding short, stabbing blades. The two formations advance on each other. The main goal of shieldwall battle is to overlap the other formation’s wall and attack it from the flanks. Another option is to break the enemy’s front, though this is very difficult to achieve. The front ranks attempt to stab each other over, under, and between the shields, while the back ranks push on those in front of them, shove spears over the shield wall into the foe, or fling axes, daggers, rocks, and spears.
Given this, would it make the most sense to have Hakon take his Weapon Focus in the short sword or hand ax? Is there a weapon that is considered more 'noble' and thus more appropriate to him, being a jarl's son?
Weapons are largely a matter of individual choice. (Though note that Huscarls must be Lawful... if that conflicts too much with your idea, you can grab another Archetype instead. Huscarl is an option, not a requirement, especially given that a Jarl's son might not necessarily -want- to be a Huscarl in the first place. XD)
You may also want to consider being a Strength-based Rogue. Most of your damage should probably come from being a Fighter anyway. I... frown... on things like trying to stack full Fighter damage with full Rogue sneak attacking in Gestalt - because that's making you much stronger than the game expects at a given level - and if you're not being a Fighter for the damage, there's basically no point in taking the class to begin with. XD It will definitely help the party if your primary abilities are spread around, too. (Frog God Games likes Ability Checks as well as Skill Checks, and Strength-based challenges are a thing.) One-Handed and Shield is an option, or perhaps Two-Handed and Buckler, if you want to keep taking advantage of the Huscarl archetype, and your Rogue side can focus on utility and skills instead of killing stuff.
Interesting points. And you're right - though the huscarl archetype has lots of flavor, evaluating it in light of Hakon's roguish and independent nature as the son of a jarl might not make it the best fit.
I'm going to continue to mull things over. When are you hoping to kick off game play?
EDIT: Fighter (Tactician)/ Rogue (Scout) or Rogue (Survivalist) are looking good.
Scout and Survivalist stack - you could take both. XD
I'm hoping to kick things off in two or three days - I want everyone to have enough time to finalize their character sheets and thoroughly review the Campaign Info.
Also, during the game itself, there will be times when I add setting notes detailing what others might think of your actions. This isn't meant to be railroading - though I do expect you guys to stay mostly on-track - but rather a way of helping you get a better sense for the area and how your choices might impact you. (This will generally be stuff your characters would know. The Northlands is NOT Generic Fantasy Setting #12, so I'm trying to help you get into the right mindset. XD)
Alright, there's some meat on my profile's bones. I've gone straight fighter and stacked Scout/Survivalist; the combination was just too perfect to pass up. Without a real need for trapfinding it was easy to go Scout, and the Survivalist benefits in the frigid north seem particularly apt.
Combat-wise, I've chosen not to optimize and instead gone with the vision of Hakon that guided my backstory. As such, I've gone with a dex build centered around weapon finesse. I've used some of my heir gold to upgrade my heavy wooden shield to MW, lowering the armor check penalty against the Weapon Finesse, and then splurged on making my hand-ax MW as well. I like the image of Hakon being slender and swift as exemplified in his backstory, and that seems to work well.
@Hakon: Scouts are fun. So is the Two-Weapon Feint Scout with the awesome Cloak Fighter trait (which fighter can pull off early with bonus feats), if you're interested in a dueling sword and high charisma, though I understand why you might not want to.
@Rednal: I thought you needed a caster level above zero to cast spherespells? And how many spheres do I get? I'm definitely taking Fate for flavor (it's the only one that uses "words," even if it is kind of lackluster), but I should coordinate with Laralai—which one of us wants healing?
As I understand Sphere casting, you can use the talents to take a Sphere whenever you get a talent. As soon as you have a Sphere you can use it. So with Bard you have two Talents, allowing you take one Sphere and pick up a further advanced talent. Or take two Spheres but only get access to the basic abilities.
I mean, they had swords for dueling (see: Holmganga). They might not be exactly the same as "dueling swords," though. So yeah, fighting with a cloak and fast sword might not be your jam.
You get two Magic Talents in Spherecasting the first time you gain the spells class feature - which is generally Level 1. Afterwards, you generally get one each time you gain a caster level, and then any others via bonuses (like what Witches can get). Eindrid, as said above, you should be starting with the two.
Dueling swords are a bit more advanced than the North makes. They tend to prefer simple, sturdy weapons. XD
Ah, misread it. Can still cast spells at caster level 0.
(Also, Laralai, did you want to take Life, or should I? If I go with healing it will probably have to be mostly ooc, and somewhat unreliable due to lower SP)
Caster Level in Spheres is different than Caster Level in Vancian. You can still swing a weapon if you have a BAB of +0, and similarly, Spheres lets you cast with a Caster Level of 0.
(Laralai seems big on Life, by the way. XD And that's a better power for females anyway, given the themes and customs of the North.)
Yeah, I'm grabbing Life and the Nature Spheres. I have a spare Talent at the moment, I just haven't decided where it would fit best. Time is my current favourite, since being faster would have been really useful at least once during her back story, but if anyone else has a preference I'm open to ideas. If they fit the character...
My Crunch is mostly done. Working on my familiar and the last Sphere is all I really need. I did the changes you asked for yesterday.
@Hakon: Your Special Abilities section. Stuff like "Hardy", your traits, and most feats (except, like, Weapon and Armor Proficiency) should all be listed there in alphabetical order and with their full text. ^^ It's MUCH easier to read that than click links.
@Laralai: Consider which Spheres are most suitable for your theme. ^^ No, seriously, consider that - not every power is appropriate for every character idea, and the fluff-heavy nature of character design here means you should always ask whether or not a given power would make sense for a character, and how they'd act if they had it.
Yup. Healing because of her desire to help others with the powers she's been given and the hope of repairing her severed leg. Nature (Water) because of the possession by a spirit of Winter (and because it's the option for replacing the Winter Patrom spells).
Time's a potential because if she had been faster she wouldn't have had her leg ripped off by a large, angry bear. Destruction would allow for frosty blasting, although I dunno how useful that would be. Divination and Fate were the traditional role of the Cunning Folk/Völva from Northern European magic traditions that I would assume the Cunning Women are based on, so that's possible. Weather would fit pretty well, especially when related to Cold based stuff. Warp would work for similar reasons to Time. Protection fits her 'helper' mentality.
I can't see Death, Darkness, Mind, Telekinesis, Illusion, Enchantment and War working, so I wasn't planning on those Spheres.
Witches have been known to do interesting things with time... like freeze castles for a hundred years. XD Apparently, this never results in their neighbors annexing the land because of the lack of leadership, nor does the population form any other serious form of government. That's pretty impressive.
But yeah, that sounds good for now. ^^ Ah, and note that Weather... won't be especially useful at lower levels. That's definitely a slow-burning sphere, and you'll need to get measurably stronger before you'll be able to affect the weather enough to matter during major storms and whatnot. I recommend waiting on that for now.
Ah, and Drop Dead Studios is currently releasing expansions for the spheres, offering lots of interesting new choices. The one for Nature is already out, and I'll dig through it soonish to see if there are any options you might be interested in. ^^
Yeah, after the whole 'part with your hard earned money pauper scum' season is over I'll top up on my PDF collection. In fairness I probably would have if I didn't have to enter my new card details into Paizo, d20pfsrd's shop and such.
Until then anything that might work well would be appreciated. The ability to summon and freeze water is awesome, but my DC isn't really high enough for much offence and at 2 points a shot it hurts a little.
Oooookay! I've got my analysis of spheres (as they relate to Laralai and I) thought out. Here's my two hundred cents:
- : Good at high levels, might definitely be worth taking in a few levels, but not as useful right now
+ : Good for Eindrid
* : Good for Laralai
**: Good for either, but it would be beneficial if one of us eventually took it
bold: My personal favorites
-Destruction: Honestly, not sure if this is worth it for any of us. Useful for overcoming physical DR, but you'll be hitting harder (at reach) with your flurries if you ever take Feral Combat Training, and I'll be hitting harder (with range) with my weird words as soon as I hit bard 6.
**Divination: Thematic for either of us, but the base abilities are really good. We could potentially each take it, one limited to Divine only, one limited to Sense only (as a sphere-specific drawback for a free talent). At high levels, Foreshadow and Blindfolded Oracle are both awesome options.
-Enhancement: Kind of a grab bag. The base effect is useless with Automatic Bonus Progression, but at high levels, Cripple and Animate become awesome options (and could be taken with a single talent using drawbacks)
+Fate: Thematic for Eindrid (as a chanter), and the OoC effects are awesome. Not very useful in combat, though, and no reason for someone else to take it.
**Life: If you're getting this, we're good. Benefits from a large pool of SP more than a high caster level.
**Light: THE BEST COMBAT SPHERE OH MY GOD THIS IS AMAZING. If it's not your jam thematically, I'll be happy to take it either at start or in a few levels. Holy cow, the king of all buff/debuffs. Highlights include (pun intended): Blinding Light (AoE BLIND, marginally better on a full caster because of save DC), Bound Light + Area Glow (super entangle), Encompassing Light (increase an ally's size by 1-3 categories, slightly better on a full caster, but holy cow at CL 10 you can give everyone in the party two size increases in damage and reach), Repelling Light (poor man's wall spells)
-Mind: Neat effects, though some of it can be duplicated with Eindrid's Fate words. May be more useful with larger SP pools.
*Nature: Much more versatile than it looks, for the environmental effects. Water seems the coolest, Earth is alright, and I don't think the rest are very worthwhile.
*Protection: GREAT for Laralai, as a monk. Oh man! Take the Protected Soul drawback, giving you the Armored Magic talent for free. Boom, there's your Mage Armor and all-day shield. By level 5, this is +6 to your AC, and it's very thematic for Laralai. If you want to get really crazy, add Limited Protection in exchange for Obstruction, and then you get awesome DR on top of your armor, letting you cast three amazing all-day defensive buffs (but only on yourself) for a total investment of 1 talent.
-Time: Haste is awesome, but it's SP-intensive, and the force multiplier diminishes significantly with such a small party. You could start with this, but it's probably better with enough SP to afford Group Time (at CL 4, you could hit all three of us).
-Weather: Great at high levels, for basically diverting blizzards. One of us will probably get it later.
+War: Totems don't stack well with Inspire Courage/Banner bonuses. But the Rally abilities are really nice, don't depend on CL, and I might take one or several of these (with Battle Inspiration), which let me do awesome things like reroll allies' saves or negate enemy crits.
* * *
Laralai Breakdown: Time is good, but not for a few more levels. Light and Protection seem the coolest for Laralai right now, but again, can always take those later instead (or not at all). Divination could be decent, or we could both take it and coordinate.
Eindrid Breakdown: I'll be taking Fate, and either Light (if you're planning to never get it), or else either Divination or War (Battle Manipualtion, Revitalize.
Getting to play with new magic is pretty fun, isn't it? XD Sense of discovery and all.
@Laralai: Highlights from the Geomancer's Handbook are:
-The addition of Metal Geomancing (pull out ore from the earth and fashion it into stuff)
-Naturesight gives you Mistsight and lets you see through your fog (other nature options give other senses)
-Rejuvenation gives you fast healing, but only to half your max hit points.
..........
Actually, this is probably easiest to explain based on your levelup plans. Do you plan to take any other Nature powers, or stick with water?
Yeah, it does look like fun, but given the flavor of the North I think it best that at least one member of the party be 'normal'. Not that I mind - I'm excited to get started with Hakon as is.
In terms of tying our background together, I envision Hakon having arrived at Olaf's village perhaps two or three weeks before the game starts. He's a handsome, charismatic young man, son of a jarl and a deft player of henfatafl. Do either Eindrið or Laralai come by the jarl's longhouse much?
I sure hope they do, given that the Setting Information requires everyone to somehow be in service to the Jarl. XD Hard to do that if they're not present.
I think Eindrid also has a point as it relates to Hakon... I'm not planning to give casting to the non-caster, but how would you guys (as a group) feel about unlocking some of the restrictions on martial stuff?
I'm currently thinking along the lines of...
>The basic Up/Down feats (Power Attack, Combat Expertise, etc.) are combat options for everyone, available as soon as you otherwise meet the prerequisites
>Weapon Finesse and Improved Unarmed Strike are known by everyone. If you already invested a feat in those, or you gained either as a bonus feat, you can replace it with another Combat feat you qualify for.
>Hakon gets Combat Stamina and Skill Unlocks from Unchained
>Combat Maneuvers don't provoke
>Cutting down on feat trees. If things have an Improved and/or Greater version (like many Combat Maneuver feats, Weapon Focus, etc.), you automatically gain the higher ones once you meet the prerequisites. Ditto Style feats (you automatically progress when you qualify). Anything else that's an obvious tier thing might qualify (ask me about specifics).
I think this might actually be more appropriate for the North, whose heroes tend to be martial characters anyway. XD
I think that all sounds mighty grand, and makes the game more intense and enjoyable - I especially like the suggestion that Combat Manuevers don't provoke. Makes them much more likely to be used, and in turn makes combats that much more diverse and fun. Brilliant.
...yeah, those sound pretty good to me. I was planning to use a lot of Combat Manoeuvres, so that saves quite a few feats. I have both Weapon Finesse and Unarmed Strike, so those are good for me too. And Style Feats...well, I guess I can start thinking more about those now I have free feats.
For the Spheres, let's see...
- Yes, I'm picking up more Nature Sphere stuff. I get 9 more of the Nature Sphere talents as bonus stuff, so I'll probably get a good chunk of it. I had no solid idea beyond that, though - Nature wasn't one of my initial choices. I was gonna focus on Ice/Water, but Metal sounds interesting.
- Sounds like Protection would be a good trick for Laralai to pick up at first, then. I like Time but it can wait, and Light does work but it sounds like one to pick up when I can invest into it. I'll debuff for now by grabbing with murder hair and pinning people that way.
>Hakon gets Combat Stamina and Skill Unlocks from Unchained
Theoretically, this is kosher by RAW.
There's the classic "feat tax avoidance" homebrew out there which doesn't do exactly what you suggest, but is similar. Instead of "Combat Maneuvers don't provoke," there's a reduced number of maneuver feats: Improved Disarm/Reposition/Trip are combined into "Improved Deft Maneuvers," and... nah, here's the link. It's a good way to give bonus feats that only help the amrtial stuff.
(That said, combat maneuvers are one of the most powerful things in PF, so I'm often okay with the base restrictions on them—whatever everyone else goes with is okay. And I get finesse as a class feature, so it doesn't get replaced, but being able to use it with longswords is the icing there)
Yeah, the trick with Protection is to make it only buff yourself for the free perks (since the rest of us wear armor and shields).
Since Divine scales with level, but War starts out good, I guess I'll go Fate/War, and pick up Divine later.
Hmm... don't think I want to implement that particular homebrew. Not for this game, anyway. XD This way you don't inherently suck at attempting them, but you'll still need to train (i.e. invest feats) to really get bonuses and use them reliably. Sounds like we've got table agreement, though, so I'll add the stuff to the Campaign Info tab...
@Laralai: You have no points in Linguistics. You shouldn't have Seagestrelander as a language.
@Hakon: You can pick one more language (either Nuklander or Runic - or neither, if you feel your character wouldn't know the elves' tongue or how to write).
@Eindrid: Don't forget to add your quick-reference bar. I use those a lot. XD
@Everyone: Please finish tidying up your profiles as soon as your schedule permits, because we're going to get underway. ^^
The full text of stuff like feats and traits does not go under Statistics (just list them there). It goes under Special Abilities, as in the sample of Neve up above. ^^
Meanwhile, I'm continuing to plot things out in Realm Works. XD These adventures are pretty dense, and things aren't always in exact chronological order, so hopefully this'll help me keep things straight.
It's a bit off, but we're almost level 2... so does anyone remember the name of the feat that gives you +2 to two perform skills? (like alertness but for perform?) I'm planning to take that at level 3 for fun times with versatile performance.
