I have been playing pathfinder for about 8ish months. I ran with one DM who only played published mods. Once he finished DM-ing I asked if I could DM a few games. My whole campaign is in a Norse-based setting because my players wanted to start as viking slaves. I created factions, religion, social structure, and a starting town then I realized "How do I write my first mod?" I have its basic structure but I'm having trouble with the details. I DM-ed 4e for about a year so I have no problems with mod ideas, but I'm not sure how many monsters to put into the dungeon. What's a hard CR for level 1 characters? How do I determine CR if there is more than one monster. What types of treasure is appropriate for lvl 1 characters? We have 2 magusi (not sure with the spelling), 1 rogue, 1 cleric, and 1 undecided. How do I determine ad-hoc for each class? I'm a bit confused by the books. I need some help!
In regards to how many monsters to place in your dungeon, you can always modify it as the session progresses. Meaning, if you had planned on having four encounters, but the group is beat up after just two, you might want to consider not pushing them any further. You can just as easily remove/place more challenges as you see fit.
When it comes down to CR, it's all based on the power level of the group. Some groups can take CR+3 (average party level + 3) without problems, whilst others struggle with CR+1 (average party level + 1).
I suggest you first set the party up against a CR encounter equal to their level, and gradually push the CR further and see what happens. Once you're gauged their power level (and tactics) you will be better able to construct challenges for them.
Oh, and that group looks pretty balanced (in terms of roles; you are most likely familiar with that term from 4E). One thing to consider though is that those roles aren't always set in stone. For example, in 4E a cleric is a leader(healer/buffer). In Pathfinder, they can still provide these roles in a party, but they may also engage in melee or ranged combat. Indeed, healing is usually done outside of combat in Pathfinder. Though, in-the-moment healing is sometimes necessary, clerics are most often expected to participate in combat (more DPR* = less enemies = less damage suffered by the party).
*= Damage Per Round
I downloaded a free mod off the WOTC site for 3.5 to see what CR I should choose. Most encounters were around 1-2. I have a final boss thats CR 4 and I'm afraid he's going to be too easy. This group has been playing pathfinder as long as I have on a weekly basis plus some people have been playing 3.5 as well. Is CR 4 too easy?
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I downloaded a free mod off the WOTC site for 3.5 to see what CR I should choose. Most encounters were around 1-2. I have a final boss thats CR 4 and I'm afraid he's going to be too easy. This group has been playing pathfinder as long as I have on a weekly basis plus some people have been playing 3.5 as well. Is CR 4 too easy?
Pathfinder CR = 3.5 CR -1
So, a CR 4 boss in a 3.5 WotC module is CR 3 in Pathfinder.
I'm not running that mod I just used it as a reference. I'm using a pathfinder Ice Troll. Is CR 4 tough but not too hard for a mostly-experienced party?
Gamemastering contains basics of designing combat encounters. In long run it is more of art than hard science - exact composition of party and specific abilities of monsters can change a lot.
In very general:
Average difficulty: CR = APL (average four character party level)
Hard: CR 1 or 2 higher than APL
Very Hard: CR 3 higher than APL
If CR is 4+ higher than APL total party kill is expected unless party has composition that is exceptionally suited to the challenge (like there is a horde of weak creatures and the party has access to abilities capable of preventing access to them and lots of area damaging effects and lots of effects - like 16 ogres against 4 five level wizards with fly and fireball spells and lots of damaging spells of lower levels.
In the gamemastering section there are tables that help you determine XP budget per encounter (Table: Experience Point Awards)
Oh, and plural of magus is magi - don't ask me how to say that something belongs to the magus... I have no idea myself :)
Action economy usually decides the outcome of a climactic encounter. One monster is a lot easier to deal with than many. In that regard, a single CR 4 monster may be a challenge, but since it only gets one round of actions, and your part gets five, it might drop faster than you might like.
Now, having plenty of minions (or low CR monsters) might harry the party and eat up their actions (as they are forced to deal with them), allowing for the big-baddy to survive a little bit longer.
Fear Not! I bear tidings of great joy!
In the Chatroom of the Werecabbages there can often be found helpful spirits willing to advise you, including the wonderful Lilith, guardian of chat, and Daigle, master of monsters. Go to www.Werecabbages.com/chat .
To answer your questions: 1st level fights are a bit swingy, so err on the side of caution. They should be able to cut down several CR 1 threats without trouble. CR 2 foes may pose a bit of challenge, CR 3 will definitely worry them, and CR 4 opponents are likely to leave the survivors battered and looking for the exits. CR 5 opponents will likely clean the floor with them.
To determine the challenge posed by multiple opponents, the formula is normally 2 x CR A = CR A+2 (Two CR 1 foes = CR 3). The CR goes up by one for each one after that (Three CR 1 = CR 4). Below CR 1, the ranks descend by fractions: CR 1/2, CR 1/3, CR 1/4, CR 1/8. Treat each as if it were one CR lower.
Have a veteran GM check your planned encounters. Multiple foes aren't always as tough as the formula would make them appear. (As an example, a group of 6 1st-level orc warriors equals CR 5, but they would be a fair fight for a well-equipped 1st level party. Four 1st level orc barbarians would be CR 4, but would chew up the same well-equipped party.)
Thanks this has been a big help. What 'bout ad-hoc?
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Hi Ponswick,
I wish I could help you more, however I'm at work and still determining if I can download or not (day 3). That being said I'll offer what I can.
How many monsters to put into the dungeon?
This can be difficult. Let's assume you're following the medium XP chart to determine XP. I usually say to myself "What large creature are they going to fight, what level do I want them when they fight it, and so on".
For my first dungeon I had the characters gain a level on each dungeon floor. So the first floor was made for level 1s. Each CR 1 creature gave each player 100 experience, so they needed to fight 20 CR 1 creatures. However, I wanted 2 hard fights (we'll get to what that means in a second) and 1 Epic fight on that floor before they moved to level 2. So I figured out the XP on those fights, and reduced the amount of CR 1 creatures. I also decided to have some easier fights, so I took the amount of CR 1 creatures, added some CR 1/2 or CR 1/3 creatures, and increased the amount.
What's a hard CR for level 1 characters?
First you have to determine the APL (average party level). In this case they are all level 1, so (1+1+1+1)/4 = 1.
Then check the chart in chapter 12 (gamemastery, I may have this wrong). APL 3 is a hard fight for level 1 characters. You can find out this from chapter 12 in the core (I think), or just Click here .
So looking at the above, I now know that a hard fight is CR 3, and an epic fight is CR 5, and some easy fights are CR 1/2 (when you dip below CR 1, you go 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8). So a CR 5 creature gives 400 XP each. That knocks down the amount I had from 20 CR 1 (XP = 100 each) to 16 CR 1s. Then I have two CR 3s, so that was 200 XP each player. That lowers the amount of CR 1 creatures to 12 CR 1s. And I've decided that 3 fights should be easy, so I include 3 CR 1/4 fights of two monsters each. 2 CR 1/4 creatures is an APL fight of 1/2. I then go looking through a bestiary for the creatures, or stat them up myself by using the NPC creation chart.
How do I determine CR if there is more than one monster?
In the above mentioned chapter/link, it does help you determine the CR if there is more than one monster based on a table. I believe if both monsters are the same CR it's CR + 2 steps for two of them, then goes up from there. If they have different CR's, you use step 3 in the link above to determine how hard the encounter is.
What types of treasure is appropriate for lvl 1 characters?
Again, the above link has some details on treasure. I believe the amount of treasure per encounter for a party with an average party level of 1 is 260 gp if you want to take the middle of the road approach. Also the monster's statistic blocks detail the amount of treasure, and the NPC creation section of the core has some way to stat up humanoids treasure.
How do I determine ad-hoc for each class?
I'll need you to detail what you mean by "ad-hoc".
Edit: may have been ninjaed or missed the point while typing stealthy at work.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "ad-hoc". Could you be more specific?
Like xp rewards. When I played my rogue I got extra xp for opening traps.
Like xp rewards. When I played my rogue I got extra xp for opening traps.
Opening traps is not ad-hoc, traps have specific CRs and give xp accordingly (this is normally to be split amongst the party assuming all are present not given exclusively to the rogue. Details on traps can be found in the environment section of the core rules or here in the prd.
Ad-hoc rewards would normally be things like story awards (for completing a story arch or accomplishing an important goal in the story) or roleplay awards (for people who go above and beyond in the call of roleplaying their character). Both are optional and you can easily not include them in your adventure if you are concerned.
Like xp rewards. When I played my rogue I got extra xp for opening traps.
I know I'm in the minority, but I don't even award XP when I DM. Instead, I decide when to advance the characters in level.
A few example encounters:
Two orc warriors as guards (CR 1/3 each) = CR 1
(I'd add a CR 1 trap, like letting the orcs take cover behind a flipped-up table on the far side of a 20 ft. deep covered pit. I'd make it require Perception DC 18 to spot it. Total encounter = CR 3)
An ogre (CR 3), encountered bathing in the decaying blood of his fallen foes, but unarmored and without his weapons. This would lower the CR to 2, as the ogre would be forced to use a bench as an improvised club.
A lone 2nd level orc barbarian would be CR 1.
Three ravenous dire rats rifling through a littered chamber would be a CR 2 fight.
A 4th level orcish druid (and his ferocious animal companion) would be a CR 3 fight.
A nasty patch of poison oak they might blunder through is a CR 1 hazard.
A tomb filled with sarcophagi, in which rest five withered zombies is a brutal CR 6 encounter, but one the party might wisely avoid.
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Like xp rewards. When I played my rogue I got extra xp for opening traps.Opening traps is not ad-hoc, traps have specific CRs and give xp accordingly (this is normally to be split amongst the party assuming all are present not given exclusively to the rogue. Details on traps can be found in the environment section of the core rules or here in the prd.
Ad-hoc rewards would normally be things like story awards (for completing a story arch or accomplishing an important goal in the story) or roleplay awards (for people who go above and beyond in the call of roleplaying their character). Both are optional and you can easily not include them in your adventure if you are concerned.
Remember that experience is issued for bypassing a challenge. So if the party runs into a trap and it goes off but they all don't die...technically they still get experience. The same goes for monsters. If the party comes up against a big bad creature they have to bypass in order to complete the story and they do so without killing it, then you owe them experience. It doesn't mean the main protagonist shows up and mocks them and then flies away...it means there is a dragon in a room between them and the door they need to get to and instead of killing the dragon they trick it, sneak by it or just outrun it. In the same respect though...they can't get experience from the same monster twice. You can't bypass that dragon on the way into the dungeon and get experience and then bypass it on the way out and get even more experience. Its a one and done son.
Figured I'd toss that in there because sometimes PCs think they have to murder anything and everything in their path in order to level up...luckily this isn't Maple Story so grinding XP isn't that terrible!
I'm pulling a Beowulf for my first game. They gotta hunt down a Frost troll that been attacking the village. His lair is full of Kobolds, Orcs, Goblins, Zombies.
what about 2 giant centipedes + three orcs but the centipedes and the orcs are fighting each other.
Are they allied with one another (troll and kobolds/orcs/goblins), or is it a sort of cease-fire/truce between baddies?
For a big-baddy, you did choose a good one. The troll's regeneration will make things interesting. If you want to make him even more Grendel-scary, you could add DR 5/- against manufactured weapons (meaning that any attack made against him with swords, axes, etc. will be reduced by 5).
For a solid and somewhat challenging 1st level dungeon I'd put encounters like;
3-goblins (have one or two in cover to shoot at the party from behind the orc meatshields)
2-orcs (charge the party and just lay about with attacks)
These guys will probably guard the entrance to the lair.
1 medium elemental (any type, earth works best to hold up the party)
4 kobolds (will run to alert others if they see they are losing)
snare trap (to catch unwary players and leave them vulnerable)
These will probably be sentries stationed from a distance of maybe 20 to 30 feet from behind a cornerbend to take enemies by surprise.
4 hobgoblins (3 with melee weapons, 1 with a bow)
1 hobgoblin 1st level fighter (to lead the group, will probably be alerted by kobolds from previous encounter)
In an armory or barracks which could be looted for a masterwork weapon or armor.
1 ghoul (tougher creep, fairly strong and armed with paralysing bite attack, and diseases)
3 zombies/skeletons (weak little minions)
In an old festering tunnel, damp and dark this would be a good time to use light.
1 choker (surprise enemy and quite nasty for casters, probably there for free food to scavenge)
3 dire rats (not too dangerous)
In hiding until the players pass by.
1 Orc 1st level barbarian (tough enemy to take down with high CON)
1 Orc 1st level druid (again fierce animal companion, probably a boar, or with the fire and weather domains)
Orc chief and his advisor, probably not too far from big bad.
2 Troglodytes (a classic cave monster)
3 Goblins(again in cover to shoot)
Maybe this could be the guard group for big bad's room.
Ice Troll (maybe with a masterwork battle axe or improved natural attacks to put pressure on players)
Treasure for dungeon should be 2 or three masterwork items, a couple low level potions and maybe a scroll with some minor spells on it.