What type of weapon is a Junk Sword?

I have a technomancer largely built around Junk Armor and Junk Sword (spells from Pact Worlds).

Junk Sword says "You turn a pile of technological junk into a one-handed melee weapon that you can wield against your foes."

I'm looking to take the Weapon Focus feat for this, but it is neither listed as "Basic" or "Advanced". So what is the weapon type for a junk sword?

Right now? Neither. It is a one-handed weapon that the Technomancer is proficient with.

You need to take Versatile Weapon Focus to get a +1 to hit with it.

I've been futzing with a Nuar melee Technomancer build using the Junksword (took Heavy Armor proficiency, though; I'm not a huge fan of Junk Armor).

That's rather broken, having to use two feats to get a +1 with a single specific weapon?

This also applies to special weapons generally; in these cases, it would seem logical that Weapon Focus could apply to a specific special weapon rather than a broad type such as "all basic" or "all advanced".

It isn't ideal, no. It may just be an oversight.

My reading of the spell is that you don't have proficiency in the Junksword until you cast the spell, which would prevent you from taking Weapon Focus (Junksword).

My reading of the spell is that you don't have proficiency in the Junksword until you cast the spell, which would prevent you from taking Weapon Focus (Junksword).

"You are automatically proficient with this melee weapon" does not mean the spell provides the proficiency. It could be equally argued that proficiency was gained in the process of learning the spell and/or that the forms it takes will always be ones you're familiar with.

The feat represents time invested in training beyond that required to be proficient with it, so long as its able to be cast regularly that training can take place.

You know, it'd be nice if they wrote a single consolidated definition of "Junk" and used the space saved on repeating the definition in each spell to include considerations like weapon focus for Junk Sword or an option for upgrade slots for Junk Armor.

I flagged this for a FAQ candidate in any case.

Yeah, pretty sure this is just an oversight. Most of the other non-weapon effects that give you weapons call out what kind of weapon they count as, like the Bone Blade Necrograft.

The Venom Spur augmentation similarly has no defined weapon category. Hopefully that can get a clarification as well.

After discussing it locally that seems to be the consensus. One player raised a similar issue with natural weapons such as the Morlamaw's claws.

I'm just going to mark "Weapon Focus (Junksword)" until there's a clarification. If a GM doesn't allow it I'll give up the +1 for that session.

Natural Weapons are usually called out as being unarmed strikes, which are basic melee weapons according to the table.

"You are automatically proficient with this melee weapon" does not mean the spell provides the proficiency. It could be equally argued that proficiency was gained in the process of learning the spell and/or that the forms it takes will always be ones you're familiar with.

The feat represents time invested in training beyond that required to be proficient with it, so long as its able to be cast regularly that training can take place.

You know, it'd be nice if they wrote a single consolidated definition of "Junk" and used the space saved on repeating the definition in each spell to include considerations like weapon focus for Junk Sword or an option for upgrade slots for Junk Armor.

I flagged this for a FAQ candidate in any case.

Actually, "You are automatically proficient with this melee weapon" is in the spell description; therefore it is an effect of the spell. No other spell, to my knowledge, confers abilities just from knowing the spell, other than being able to cast the spell. As far as RAW is concerned, you gain proficiency in Junksword when you finish casting the spell, and lose it when the spell expires.

Which isn't to say that I disagree that it needs clarification. It totally does. Good FAQ call. I'd love to get basic Weapon Focus on my Nuar Technomancer to include the Junksword, so I could get a bonus with his horns as well.

Actually, "You are automatically proficient with this melee weapon" is in the spell description

Imbuing the caster with a temporary weapon proficiency would be a little unusual for a spell in the Conjuration (creation) school, no?

"Automatically" is the word I find odd here. The spell creates the weapon, and you're "automatically" proficient in it, but that doesn't quite mean the same thing as the spell imbuing that proficiency.

The only other case of automatic weapon proficiency I could find is in regard to a Solarian's Solar Weapon:

Your solar weapon functions as a one-handed kinetic advanced melee weapon, and you’re automatically proficient with it.

Similar to a Junk Sword, solar weapons cannot leave the owners' hands. In this case however, a solar weapon is specifically designated as an advanced melee weapon.

Here's the curious bit; all Solarians have advanced melee weapon proficiency so why is the automatic weapon proficiency spelled out?

One thing I think we can all agree on, the author of the Junk Sword spell clearly did not anticipate readers analysing their words to this depth.

Thanks for flagging this for FAQ candidacy.

I think, for the solar weapon anyway, the automatic proficiency is spelled out because the weapon functions like an advanced melee weapon, but is not actually an advanced melee weapon. If they hadn't included the extra words, instead we'd have 30 pages of people arguing whether the Solarian is proficient in his solar weapon.

Imbuing the caster with a temporary weapon proficiency would be a little unusual for a spell in the Conjuration (creation) school, no?

Not particularly. Conjured weapons have always been a thing since early D&D; it would be pretty weird to conjure a weapon and then have the caster not be able to use it. It's magic, after all.

"Automatically" is the word I find odd here. The spell creates the weapon, and you're "automatically" proficient in it, but that doesn't quite mean the same thing as the spell imbuing that proficiency.

Again, I disagree. It's in the spell description text; therefore it is an effect of the spell... unless EVERYBODY is automatically proficient with Junkswords (not that it matters, since the Junksword can't leave your hand).

One thing I think we can all agree on, the author of the Junk Sword spell clearly did not anticipate readers analysing their words to this depth.

We may have put more thought into it than the author did.

We may have put more thought into it than the author did.

100% accurate.

I think, for the solar weapon anyway, the automatic proficiency is spelled out because the weapon functions like an advanced melee weapon, but is not actually an advanced melee weapon.

If they hadn't included the extra words, instead we'd have 30 pages of people arguing whether the Solarian is proficient in his solar weapon.

Challenge accepted!

If a Solarian's Solar Weapon functions like an advanced melee weapon, but isn't actually an advanced melee weapon, then Weapon Focus (advanced melee) wouldn't apply to it.

Moreso, you wouldn't be able to take Weapon Focus (solar weapon) because that requires proficiency which you don't have - because the proficiency is imbued in the Solarian only while the Solar Weapon is formed so the feat's prerequisites cannot be met.

What about the Solarian's Weapon Specialization at 3rd level? Proficiency in their solar weapon is provided by their ability (which is a class option), not the class itself. Because you aren't proficient in the Solar Weapon, a Solarian would have to take both Weapon Specialization and Versatile Specialization feats to gain specialization in it.

The language on Solar Weapon may just be a holdover from an earlier version of the rules, or perhaps it's there to support future mechanics that might give a Solarian weapon to non-Solarians.

A Solarian archetype? Like... "Siderial Emissary"... Interesting idea. Could be used to give a Stellar Weapon to a non-Solarian, or give Solar Armor to a weapon Solarian.

Would have to be drastically underpowered compared to an actual Solarian so as to not step on the class's toes.

It would be funny if the 9th level ability was "gain a Stellar Revelation," because that's what actual Solarians give up to get an Archetype.

Challenge accepted!

If a Solarian's Solar Weapon functions like an advanced melee weapon, but isn't actually an advanced melee weapon, then Weapon Focus (advanced melee) wouldn't apply to it.

Moreso, you wouldn't be able to take Weapon Focus (solar weapon) because that requires proficiency which you don't have - because the proficiency is imbued in the Solarian only while the Solar Weapon is formed so the feat's prerequisites cannot be met.

What about the Solarian's Weapon Specialization at 3rd level? Proficiency in their solar weapon is provided by their ability (which is a class option), not the class itself. Because you aren't proficient in the Solar Weapon, a Solarian would have to take both Weapon Specialization and Versatile Specialization feats to gain specialization in it.

Right. These are all questions that apply to junk sword, because it doesn’t have the extra detail the Solar Weapon has. The whole ‘functions like’ line tells us how to treat the weapon in terms of things that interact with it, like feats and specialization.

Which is why we have this thread. And why we don’t have the same thread about Solar Weapon.

I'm playing my Nuar Technomancer for the first time tomorrow and while choosing spells I came across junksword. Since every Technomancer I've seen picks the same magic missile or jolting surge, I thought this would be fun change.

I was also planning on taking Weapon Focus and had the same questions as the first few posters, which led me to this thread. Made me feel all giddy that other people noticed the same discrepancies.

I hope this gets an eventual FAQ or errata as well. Until then I'll take Weapon Focus and Versatile Focus to handle any table variation. Thanks for the suggestion!

I'm playing my Nuar Technomancer for the first time tomorrow and while choosing spells I came across junksword. Since every Technomancer I've seen picks the same magic missile or jolting surge, I thought this would be fun change.

I was also planning on taking Weapon Focus and had the same questions as the first few posters, which led me to this thread. Made me feel all giddy that other people noticed the same discrepancies.

I hope this gets an eventual FAQ or errata as well. Until then I'll take Weapon Focus and Versatile Focus to handle any table variation. Thanks for the suggestion!

I'm trying to build a junk-focused technomancer myself. Tell us how this guy fares!

My SFS nuar junksword technomancer has done fine so far, but I actually haven't gotten much use out of the sword.

Part of it is just that he's my GM credit character and hasn't actually seen as much play as my main character, but also circumstances have tended to conspire against him getting into melee. Once he cast Supercharge Weapon on the soldier's doshko and she one-shot the boss. Another time he initiated combat with a by casting the sword, but immediately got Shaken by an aura and fell back on Magic Missiles to avoid the attack penalties.

He's 3rd level now, though, so I expect that there will be some actual challenges coming up.

From the Description As Written (DaW?), it sounds like it is a naturally intuitive weapon for the Technomancer, and is closely analogous to a natural weapon, or an unarmed strike. I concur with this logic, but it does not end there.

That said, it is a separate weapon, potentially with reach. It is manifestly a light, one-handed weapon...and could easily be properly configured as an Operative weapon.

Thinking as a Technomancer, I'd be tempted to carry a small bag of engineered, sharp pieces of metal with me to create an Optimized Junksword. Are engineered components required? |not|. But is the Engineered Sword better? |yes|.

Thoughts?

Arc Riley wrote:

"You are automatically proficient with this melee weapon" does not mean the spell provides the proficiency. It could be equally argued that proficiency was gained in the process of learning the spell and/or that the forms it takes will always be ones you're familiar with.

The feat represents time invested in training beyond that required to be proficient with it, so long as its able to be cast regularly that training can take place.

You know, it'd be nice if they wrote a single consolidated definition of "Junk" and used the space saved on repeating the definition in each spell to include considerations like weapon focus for Junk Sword or an option for upgrade slots for Junk Armor.

I flagged this for a FAQ candidate in any case.

Actually, "You are automatically proficient with this melee weapon" is in the spell description; therefore it is an effect of the spell. No other spell, to my knowledge, confers abilities just from knowing the spell, other than being able to cast the spell. As far as RAW is concerned, you gain proficiency in Junksword when you finish casting the spell, and lose it when the spell expires.

Which isn't to say that I disagree that it needs clarification. It totally does. Good FAQ call. I'd love to get basic Weapon Focus on my Nuar Technomancer to include the Junksword, so I could get a bonus with his horns as well.

Sorry. More thoughts on the Engineered-variation of Junk Sword.

I would say that Engineered metal/ceramics would simply give the damage rolls of the next-higher level version of Junk Sword in its analog configuration.

Creating a Powered, Engineered-variation of Junk Sword would involve metal-ceramic components with built-in capacitors and discharge points, but would have the same effect.

Thoughts?

I'm playing my Nuar Technomancer for the first time tomorrow

What a blast from the past. This weekend will be his first game at 10th level, and one of his 4th level spells is junksword ^_^

More thoughts on the Engineered-variation of Junk Sword.

I think it's great to flavor where the junk in your junksword comes from. The articulated arm of that sentry drone your group encountered. The remains of an explosive trap you failed to perceive. Almost as a way to record the memorable encounters your group has had.

Mechanically-speaking, it should probably just translate into higher-level spellslots.