For societies, I usually go by half as many of one level higher... if that makes sense. so half the population is lvl 1, 25% lvl 2, 12.5% lvl 3, and so on and about 1 in 2 millions is lvl 20. For places with more adventurers (actual occupation) - I do tweek the numbers.
I have no clue about Golarion total population. Maybe about 2 or 3 billion humanoids/native outsiders/monstrous humanoids.
I would assume anywhere from 2.5 billion to 3 billion.
Keep in mind some races, such as goblins, are vastly more numerous than others. Plus, there's entire cities underground. A lot of wilderness areas are rather densely populated with sentient beings, and the underground could easily double (or more!) the amount of inhabitable terrain.
Now, if you include the First World and other planes... it could easily hit 10 billion. Add in the other planets in the solar system and it could be as much as 50 billion.
There are some on the forums who say that just about the entire humanoid population is at 1 HD, with anything above being pretty rare, but I don't subscribe to that. I would place almost all of the humanoid population between levels 1 and 3, depending on age, experience, training, etc. We're talking mostly NPC classes of course. Everything else would be on a case by case basis.
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Well, based loosely on the Settlement Rules I worked out some rough Population Demographics By Level that seem to reflect published material pretty well.
No idea on total population...though 2-3 billion seems quite high given that the largest cities are less than a tenth the size of the largest cities on Earth, and the vast tracts of sparsely populated wilderness there are...
I'd expect one billion at the most, and that only by counting everything that can talk including the various Darklands races...and even that is probably stretching it. If you include the sea-dwelling races you might come up with more given the degree to which water is more plentiful than land, though. Even including that, though, I'd expect less than 2 billion.
Are you two also counting all of the orc settlements, goblin settlements, underground settlements, fae settlements, etc.?
The 2-3 billion estimate is intended to reflect all of those and the fact that there's a lot of people living out in the wilderness. So, realistically, you're looking at a world that has a lower population density than Earth, but pretty much has every single inch of it settled. 2-3 billion is actually on the low end, since Earth itself could support around ten billion under a similar scenario and still have vast tracks of emptiness (keep in mind this includes housing people on the ocean floor).
It helps to remember that, with Golarion, you're talking about much more area open to settling than Earth; they have the seas and underground settled as well. So, you're probably talking about four times the amount of space open for usage by sentient beings. Add to that the fact that harsh climates and terrain which have limited human settlement in real life do not apply in Golarion due to the wide range of sentient species.
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I'll note that my estimates are specifically for Golarion and/or the use of the Settlement rules as written (and, to some degree, things like the Gamemastery guide's NPCs, which have the average farmer at 2 HD, and the listed Bartender at 5 HD). A Homebrew setting can easily have far fewer high level folks (or far more) and still function. Just for the record.
And the Tiny races would throw off the population numbers...if any of them were listed as numerous. Most really aren't...which means they can't be more common than non-Tiny races (due to low birth rate, predation, or whatever).
I just did a bit of math using the Inner Sea Guide. Here's the result:
4,585,552 people living in notable settlements. Note this is not all settlements, note this is limited to land settlements, note this isn't even all of the notable settlements from that region, and note this is limited to a portion of the world (probably about 1/8). This doesn't count any of the nomadic tribes, tribes out in the wilderness, noted numerous species like goblins or orcs... Basically, it's extremely limited.
Basically, I feel pretty comfortable with accepting a 2-3 billion number for total population.
I believe it was Sean K Reynolds who postulated the idea of non-adventurers earning XP at a rate of 1 encounter per month.
I ran up a spreadsheet to crunch a few number using this, and generated some pretty interesting results. If you assume that non-adventurers (medium track) only have CR 1 encounters (which caps an NPC's level at 11) (if you escalate the CR to level-appropriate NPCs level pretty darn quick), and set starting age at 17, you get the following:
Level/Age
1/17
2/17
3/18
4/18
5/20
6/21
7/24
8/27
9/32
10/38
11/49
Essentially, any human who survives to middle age will be 9th level (and only a few years off 10th).
As for the demographic spread, you can pretty much make up whatever you want.
Medieval farmers also didn't have druids like Golarion does. So, it's entirely possible that Golarion is much more advanced than the medieval world was. Cities of 10,000+ people are pretty common, even in areas that are only just big enough to hold the city. Absolom, for example, probably does not have even close to enough land to feed its population, and it's not the only city like that.
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Essentially, any human who survives to middle age will be 9th level (and only a few years off 10th).
As for the demographic spread, you can pretty much make up whatever you want.
That doesn't remotely match up with existing character spreads in Golarion...and is thus a bad measure of much of anything in that setting. It's valid for a different world, but doesn't reflect the world presented even a little.
Medieval farmers also didn't have druids like Golarion does. So, it's entirely possible that Golarion is much more advanced than the medieval world was. Cities of 10,000+ people are pretty common, even in areas that are only just big enough to hold the city. Absolom, for example, probably does not have even close to enough land to feed its population, and it's not the only city like that.
Absalom is a trading mecca, though. They can import their food, and they have explicit magic items to help with that issue...which other cities do not, implying they don't have them (since it's mentioned in regards to Absalom and nowhere else).
I do have the theory that Golarion is unusually fertile (which explains a lot, from lots of large creatures to vast biodiversity), and would help provide for greater population. However...just because you can feed X people doesn't mean you do. Especially with the kind of threats there are to isolated communities on Golarion. Large swathes of the map are also pretty sparsely inhabited given they are the homes of things like nomadic barbarian tribes and such.
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There is no such thing as a mathematical curve by level, merely an arbitrary population, that exists at level appropriate points for the story at hand.
That depends on what style of game you're doing and what level of suspension of disbelief and verisimilitude the GM and players are comfortable with.
Absalom is a trading mecca, though. They can import their food, and they have explicit magic items to help with that issue...which other cities do not, implying they don't have them (since it's mentioned in regards to Absalom and nowhere else).
I do have the theory that Golarion is unusually fertile (which explains a lot, from lots of large creatures to vast biodiversity), and would help provide for greater population. However...just because you can feed X people doesn't mean you do. Especially with the kind of threats there are to isolated communities on Golarion. Large swathes of the map are also pretty sparsely inhabited given they are the homes of things like nomadic barbarian tribes and such.
I know. That creates the problem that the only way Absolom works is if the other nations have regular surpluses of crops for trading. IIRC, in real life that didn't really happen until post-Renaissance.
We may have to just chalk this one up to magic causing superfertility and it having an impact.
Keep in mind the issue is not just arable land, but it's how much land one person can work. You're right about druids - or fertility cults - or other magic that could boost crop yields. The real question is how much should civilization be dependent on druids to be fed? That give the druids a lot of political power.
Also, it is easy to remember the magic that boosts food and crop yields, but don't forget the counterbalancing magic that damages them - farmers in the middle ages didn't need to worry about giant ooze eating their crops and livestock. Magic cuts both ways - a culture that has easy access to healing spells will be more inclined to solve problems with violence.
Arable land also has a different definition, given that live is more capable of surviving in harsh environments on Golarion than on Earth.
And, I suspect the monsters are where adventurers come in and why Golarion has so many of them.
Populations would also be held in check by monster numbers. Large parts of Golarion are too dangerous for humans to settle.
Even though the map is nicely parceled up into nation-states, each of those contains lots of territory that is beyond human control. Even near a huge metropolis like Absalom, walk a few miles and you enter centaur, minotaur and harpy territory.
A number of those monsters, such as the centaurs and minotaurs, are also sentient and have to be included within the world population statistic. Thus, that's also why I am counting the oceans as settled land.
I wouldn't put total population above half a billion sentients (including goblins and Underdark dwellers), and 200-300 million probably more likely. I don't think it's anything like as high as post-industrial-revolution Earth ca the mid twentieth century, which is what 2-3 billion would indicate.
For level demographics; the GMG and Pathfinder APs tend to have 'typical' people be 2nd level NPC class, though 1st level NPC class is common too, for novices, incompetents, green recruits etc. I'd suggest these both be about equally common for the adult population, then halve numbers each level higher. 50% level 1 and halve number each level higher also works.
There is no such thing as a mathematical curve by level, merely an arbitrary population, that exists at level appropriate points for the story at hand.That depends on what style of game you're doing and what level of suspension of disbelief and verisimilitude the GM and players are comfortable with.
I agree with LazarX
Verisimilitude and Suspension of Disbelief have nothing to do with Fantasy ecosystems. Attempting to apply real world dynamics to Golarion is futile.On population Density.
It's true that given the ridiculous variety of advanced "sentient" species that the total world population likely has a higher per cubic( rather than square) mile concentration. Those species are constantly trying to commit genocide against one another. Our modern world has some nasty spots in it, but we sometimes go a decade without one ethnic group attempting to eradicate in an organized fashion.
That happens everyday on Golarion on every continent.
The fact is there is a Formal War somewhere on Earth pretty much everyday. That's true of Golarion as well, even if it's not spelled out for us, the readers. To assume that they have more Peace Days than we do, is kinda nuts.
Now let's address the elephant in the room.
Golarion's Apex Predators are not humans or even humanoid. RPG players exist because of this dynamic. The amount of protein required by large carnivorous predatory species on Golarion has no analogue on Earth. Bulletes, Wyverns, Rocs, Dire species, Drakes, Dinosaurs, Umber Hulks, Ankhegs, Dire Corbies and any number of "Giant" species consume meat at a level far beyond or world's apex predators. That requires steady supplies of meat.
Goblins and Orcs have short life expectancies because they're meat. Not because they are warlike maniacs.
This doesn't even address the things that are the actual Alpha Points in their ecosystems.
Dragons and Linnorms
Krakens
Giants
Gugs
Ghouls
Vampires
Etc.
These things could strip an entire region of protein nutrients trying to support even small populations.
Then there is the Spawn of Rovagug.
The Spawn are close to being an "Extinction Event" in and of themselves. There is no theoretical model to determine the effect of these creatures. Most of them destroy everything, down to the simple plantlife in their wake.
The Worldwound.
Demons destroy and corrupt. The effect on an ecosystem is not fully fleshed out yet.
None of this stuff is modeled in real world biology.
On clvl in the population.
This is entirely dependent on your campaign. NPC level is determined by what the needs of the DM are. It's safe to assume that the upper level for levels is around 8. Unless your PCs are above that. Then yes it's perfectly acceptable to have the City Guard full of lvl 9s and roving gangs of Bandits at level 9.
This is necessary for mechanical integrity in the game, not to model a spreadsheet. Theres at least 3 active threads in the past month where the maximum real world level of humans could be modeled with PF rules. None of it's actually relevant at the individual tables where PF gets played.
Just accepting that the "Magic Mart" economy is standard means that there are 100s of very high level casters cranking out magical knick knacks at amazing levels. That's all these casters do apparently; so unless theres a fast track for Crafters it's safe to assume that there are other lazy casters about who only craft when they need the money. If the magic mart is the default assumption in a High Fantasy setting then the world population looks a lot more like the Forgotten Realms where level 20s are all over the place. Every major city has 20 or more max level peeps just hanging out and being potent and stuff.
It's entirely up to the GM.
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I agree with LazarX
Verisimilitude and Suspension of Disbelief have nothing to do with Fantasy ecosystems. Attempting to apply real world dynamics to Golarion is futile.
Attempting to apply real world dynamics and having consistent dynamics are in no way the same thing. The first is indeed bad, for all the reasons you list, the second is not. Establishing that the world works in a consistent fashion is a very solid plan that really aids in immersion, and (again) in no way requires that the consistent fashion in question be based directly on how things work in the real world.
On clvl in the population.
This is entirely dependent on your campaign. NPC level is determined by what the needs of the DM are. It's safe to assume that the upper level for levels is around 8. Unless your PCs are above that. Then yes it's perfectly acceptable to have the City Guard full of lvl 9s and roving gangs of Bandits at level 9.
Of course the GM can change things, but the question was about Golarion specifically, and Golarion has a wealth of setting source books listing off people in various areas and even a semi-explicit set of directions in the Settlement Rules of how rare spell casters of a particular level are.
This is necessary for mechanical integrity in the game, not to model a spreadsheet. Theres at least 3 active threads in the past month where the maximum real world level of humans could be modeled with PF rules. None of it's actually relevant at the individual tables where PF gets played.
Again, that's completely irrelevant to consistency. Consistency is what's needed for verisimilitude and to avoid disbelief, not realism per se.
If all the NPCs are always leveled to be threats to the PCs level stops having a lot of meaning and the world ceases to make sense, which is the problem I'm talking about here, and the one I'm trying to avoid.
Just accepting that the "Magic Mart" economy is standard means that there are 100s of very high level casters cranking out magical knick knacks at amazing levels. That's all these casters do apparently; so unless theres a fast track for Crafters it's safe to assume that there are other lazy casters about who only craft when they need the money. If the magic mart is the default assumption in a High Fantasy setting then the world population looks a lot more like the Forgotten Realms where level 20s are all over the place. Every major city has 20 or more max level peeps just hanging out and being potent and stuff.
No it doesn't. Most crafters don't need that high a level, actually. Especially not focused ones (Skill Focus, Crafter's Fortune, and other such things let medium-low level people craft some pretty crazy stuff).
And heck, people with enough levels for 9th level spells are probably 1 in 100,000 or so in my Demographics summary, and maybe a third of them actually have a class to have such spells. So, maybe three people per million. Even at only half a billion people that's 1500 people of that level in the world, and plenty for the high level items there need to be without there being more than, well, 3 in a million people who make them.
And that's what I mean by verisimilitude. The game world assumptions and the population figures line up well together and make sense.
It's entirely up to the GM.
Well, yes. Everything is. Doesn't mean that some things can't be bad ideas, and having a wildly inconsistent world is one of them.
Consistency.
I've never seen it as consistent that a scroll of Wish is available in pretty much every major population center. That's a big deal. High clvl Breaks consistency since the divides between a clvl 2 and a clvl 10, are staggering; even with the abstraction argument.
zagnabbit wrote:
This is necessary for mechanical integrity in the game, not to model a spreadsheet. Theres at least 3 active threads in the past month where the maximum real world level of humans could be modeled with PF rules. None of it's actually relevant at the individual tables where PF gets played.DEADMANWALKING WROTE:
Again, that's completely irrelevant to consistency. Consistency is what's needed for verisimilitude and to avoid disbelief, not realism per se.If all the NPCs are always leveled to be threats to the PCs level stops having a lot of meaning and the world ceases to make sense, which is the problem I'm talking about here, and the one I'm trying to avoid.
This is why people play E6 or E8. Those systems provide an internal consistency for world dynamics. PF20 does not. This is the way it has always been too, this isn't new or specific to Golarion. Level has always caused problems in class to class power disparity, encounter design, and political relevance.
_PCs are basically superheroes by level 10, if you want to challenge them and not make the world around them completely irrelevant then yes you have to advance the other inhabitants. Otherwise the players can run roughshod over everything and everyone.World consistency works as long as the PCs are consistent within their world. RPGs are funny in that the Player Characters actually are the center of the universe. They save the world , get the girl, etc. In PF the PC gets to have his cake and eat it too.
If world consistency is the goal ,then PC power needs to be seriously limited. The 20 level progression is not a real world model, it's not even a fantasy world model it's designed for Min/Maxing Munchkinism and cheese and it works if the PCs are the Center of Creation. It fails if they are not.
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Consistency.
I've never seen it as consistent that a scroll of Wish is available in pretty much every major population center. That's a big deal. High clvl Breaks consistency since the divides between a clvl 2 and a clvl 10, are staggering; even with the abstraction argument.
Uh...how is that inconsistent, in-world? There are powerful people, and rich people can hire them to do some ridiculous stuff. How is that inherently inconsistent?
This is why people play E6 or E8. Those systems provide an internal consistency for world dynamics. PF20 does not. This is the way it has always been too, this isn't new or specific to Golarion. Level has always caused problems in class to class power disparity, encounter design, and political relevance.
Um. None of those are problems that have anything to do with the world being consistent (okay, the PCs not being politically prominent at high levels can be...but there are no published high level people in Golarion who want political power and don't have any...so it's not a relevant consistency problem).
_PCs are basically superheroes by level 10, if you want to challenge them and not make the world around them completely irrelevant then yes you have to advance the other inhabitants. Otherwise the players can run roughshod over everything and everyone.
Because superhero stories don't work and aren't popular, and superheroes never have problems. Oh, wait, that's not how that works at all.
World consistency works as long as the PCs are consistent within their world. RPGs are funny in that the Player Characters actually are the center of the universe. They save the world , get the girl, etc. In PF the PC gets to have his cake and eat it too.
Uh...that doesn't violate verisimilitude, which is what I'm talking about, at all. Having a PC who's powerful enough to conquer a country do so isn't a violation of the world working consistently, it is the world working consistently (Razimir did it, after all).
If world consistency is the goal ,then PC power needs to be seriously limited. The 20 level progression is not a real world model, it's not even a fantasy world model it's designed for Min/Maxing Munchkinism and cheese and it works if the PCs are the Center of Creation. It fails if they are not.
Wait...are you arguing that the PCs changing the world violates world consistency? Or think I'm arguing that? Because that's a ridiculous idea and not what I'm arguing at all.
No that's not what I'm saying.
The PF rules and the fictional worlds in which those rules are used and not mutually inclusive.
WISH magic is they very core of inconsistency. Wish allows the fictional reality of any Game World to be altered at any time. If rich and powerful people have ready access to Wish Magic, the world will by definition be inconsistent. people with the means will use Wish Magic to restructure reality to their benefit. Even with all the rules placed on Wish (all of which are PC centric, to keep them from making mass alterations to creation) the typical rich guy will use them for mundanely avaricious goals.
When I say it's politically inconsistent; I'm not talking about the PCs having political power. I'm talking about the PCs avoiding political entanglements. PCs are super heroes, it's a thin line to become Super Villains. When the city guard tells them to Cease and Desist, and they don't there are ramifications. Most smart players in a consistent world realize that they can do whatever they want, because the only real checque on their power is another group of NPC adventurers with PC wealth levels. The reason experienced DMs scale up the city guard, is we've all seen whathappens when the players realize they're unstoppable.
It's inconsistent that beings of PC player power could actually avoid political power. The Rich and Powerful aren't going to want PCs laying about getting MORE potent, that's a direct challenge to their hegemony. The guy who gets rid of the PCs becomes more important, the PCs become a stepping stone to political influence. That's real world thinking sure, but believing that Super Heroes could be just roaming around North America unchecked is a romantic and impractical notion.
On super hero stories, it's their oldest friends who make their toughest foes. Harry Osbourne, Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, Hector Hammond. Super hero stories work because the heroes are CHALLENGED. Batman is arguably more popular than Superman because he can be challenged, where Kal El is in a constant state of restraint. Super Hero stories work best when the hero isn't a god.
I'm not argueing that PCs shouldn't change the world, I'm arguing that to make it fun for the PLAYERS the PCs need to be challenged. Mega Dungeons are popular because all that silly real world romance, finance and political dogma is absent. The PCs just murder an incongruous population of bad bad things and get potent. That's what the vast majority of players want. To get powerful. Not to conquer nations, that'd make them do accounting. Not to make peace between warring factions, then they can't loot the bodies.
What I'm trying to say is your game will work better if the World reacts/caters to the PCs, rather than the PCs fitting into the World.
Otherwise the players will be the Aberations that don't belong.
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Here's the thing, though: The PCs do not necessarily avoid getting powerful. In fact, Kingmaker and Ultimate Campaign are both devoted to the idea of the PCs building kingdoms. And Kingmaker is pretty popular.
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No that's not what I'm saying.
The PF rules and the fictional worlds in which those rules are used and not mutually inclusive.
They can be.
WISH magic is they very core of inconsistency. Wish allows the fictional reality of any Game World to be altered at any time. If rich and powerful people have ready access to Wish Magic, the world will by definition be inconsistent. people with the means will use Wish Magic to restructure reality to their benefit. Even with all the rules placed on Wish (all of which are PC centric, to keep them from making mass alterations to creation) the typical rich guy will use them for mundanely avaricious goals.
Only ones that make more than 27k. Plus the cost of going to one of the few metropolises with 9th level spellcasting. That's...actually pretty rare for a Wish to be able to do. And thus not that setting-breaking.
Unless you mean avaricious goals other than money in which case...what did you mean?
When I say it's politically inconsistent; I'm not talking about the PCs having political power. I'm talking about the PCs avoiding political entanglements. PCs are super heroes, it's a thin line to become Super Villains. When the city guard tells them to Cease and Desist, and they don't there are ramifications. Most smart players in a consistent world realize that they can do whatever they want, because the only real checque on their power is another group of NPC adventurers with PC wealth levels. The reason experienced DMs scale up the city guard, is we've all seen whathappens when the players realize they're unstoppable.
That's completely unnecessary with properly designed demographics and a bit of care. My demographics, for example, result in a city of as little as 6000 people having several 9th-10th level people in the city, and possibly one 11th-12th level one. Sure, you can kill the guards, but the local powers-that-be are likely to be more than a bit upset. And that's a very small city all on its own, never mind a country or an army.
It's inconsistent that beings of PC player power could actually avoid political power. The Rich and Powerful aren't going to want PCs laying about getting MORE potent, that's a direct challenge to their hegemony. The guy who gets rid of the PCs becomes more important, the PCs become a stepping stone to political influence. That's real world thinking sure, but believing that Super Heroes could be just roaming around North America unchecked is a romantic and impractical notion.
That assumes the PCs are in a nation as regimented as the modern day U.S. They're usually somewhere a lot less organized (and settled) than that...and if they are somewhere that orderly (Cheliax leaps to mind) they probably should have to deal with such things, and not doing so is a poor way to properly reflect the setting. But Varisia or the River Kingdoms? Not organized enough to do much about them beyond maybe asking them to get out of town if they're being troublesome. More Wild West than modern day U.S.
On super hero stories, it's their oldest friends who make their toughest foes. Harry Osbourne, Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, Hector Hammond. Super hero stories work because the heroes are CHALLENGED. Batman is arguably more popular than Superman because he can be challenged, where Kal El is in a constant state of restraint. Super Hero stories work best when the hero isn't a god.
And I'm not arguing the heroes shouldn't be challenged, I'm arguing that if they're notably powerful the people who challenge them should be notably powerful as well (as all your examples are), for verisimilitude and fun both. Random city guards are not notably powerful.
I'm not argueing that PCs shouldn't change the world, I'm arguing that to make it fun for the PLAYERS the PCs need to be challenged. Mega Dungeons are popular because all that silly real world romance, finance and political dogma is absent. The PCs just murder an incongruous population of bad bad things and get potent. That's what the vast majority of players want. To get powerful. Not to conquer nations, that'd make them do accounting. Not to make peace between warring factions, then they can't loot the bodies.
Your statements about "most players" match about zero of the players I've actually played with. And I'd never even dream of playing in such a game. Which goes back to my first post that you disagreed with, where I said:
"That depends on what style of game you're doing and what level of suspension of disbelief and verisimilitude the GM and players are comfortable with."
You're arguing that 'most players' want a particular style of game, and thus the concerns of other sorts of game aren't relevant. That's both incorrect and arrogant as hell.
Also...even if you care about verisimilitude, there's room for the kind of game you suggest. The Pit of Gormuz is ideally suited to such a game, for example, and doesn't violate the consistency of the setting one bit.
What I'm trying to say is your game will work better if the World reacts/caters to the PCs, rather than the PCs fitting into the World.
Uh...no. That would result in the game being boring as hell, at least for me. The interplay between the PCs and the world around them, and having a legitimate impact on said world is one of the most fun parts of gaming, for both myself and many others.
Otherwise the players will be the Aberations that don't belong.
No. The world has powerful people in it. It reacts to them. That's valid and fun, and doesn't necessitate the PCs being out of place.
We will agree to disagree.
I find Wishcraft enough of a mental challenge that I don't allow it beyond what certain powerful outsiders can do. There are no scrolls and the spell doesn't exist. Also 27k is a pittance for the rich people in Absalom.
Most players want to be powerful. Period. They don't build well rounded characters that would be dynamic components of their societies. They build killers. Maybe I'm playing with the wrong people but Geisha Bards are uber rare in my experience, Blaster Wizards are not.
I like Golarion, I like the mental challenge of fantasy world building. I've just come to recognize that every group of PCs I've ever DMed for are virtual DemiGods by 14th level.
I'm well known in my neck of the woods for Roleplay heavy games with family complications, romances and heavy political intrigue. Most of my players want to kill stuff, and when I don't sake their bloodlust, they will turn on each other; because of politics, romance and finance.
TbH I spend way more of my own money on Fluff books that I may never use than on Crunch books I don't need. My players and most of the players I know well are the opposite. They MinMax and Optimise. Mine just have learned that it's sub-optimal to only excell at killing things.
But every DMs game is different.
Also I don't think your model is bad. It's also not invalid.
I just don't see it being viable without addressing the gross power gains on PC classes between 8th and 15th level. Not without going into hard Railroad mode for the story. It's why so many APs operate on a timer at the end. Without that timer, the players can justifiably raise armies, stockpile crafted items and recruit powerful NPCs (who are weaker than the PCs).
I do believe that most players see themselves as the Good Guy, even if they lack even one identifiably altruistic motivation. It's been reinforced since Gygax put pen to paper and pointed out that "PCs are Special". They aren't like other people. Yet it was Gygax who built a game full of questionable moral scenarios and a leveling up structure that just degrades at a certain point. The math breaks down eventually, so far that's been true in every edition.
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We will agree to disagree.
Perfectly happy to. :)
I find Wishcraft enough of a mental challenge that I don't allow it beyond what certain powerful outsiders can do. There are no scrolls and the spell doesn't exist. Also 27k is a pittance for the rich people in Absalom.
It's not a 'pittance' for anyone. It's not an unreachable amount of money, but it's a lot, even for rich people.
Most players want to be powerful. Period. They don't build well rounded characters that would be dynamic components of their societies. They build killers. Maybe I'm playing with the wrong people but Geisha Bards are uber rare in my experience, Blaster Wizards are not.
That's a slightly different issue from what kind of things they enjoy playing through. I, for example, like my characters to be good at combat, but am perfectly happy in a combat-light game. Wanting characters who are powerful is not the same as wanting a game that
I like Golarion, I like the mental challenge of fantasy world building. I've just come to recognize that every group of PCs I've ever DMed for are virtual DemiGods by 14th level.
I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying there are plenty of other demigods around, too, which is sufficient to make the game keep being interesting.
I'm well known in my neck of the woods for Roleplay heavy games with family complications, romances and heavy political intrigue. Most of my players want to kill stuff, and when I don't sake their bloodlust, they will turn on each other; because of politics, romance and finance.
I, meanwhile, have not found this to be the case. Not usually anyway.
TbH I spend way more of my own money on Fluff books that I may never use than on Crunch books I don't need. My players and most of the players I know well are the opposite. They MinMax and Optimise. Mine just have learned that it's sub-optimal to only excell at killing things.
And again, that's pretty much the opposite of my experience.
But every DMs game is different.
Definitely true...and actually my original point.
Also I don't think your model is bad. It's also not invalid.
Thanks. :)
I just don't see it being viable without addressing the gross power gains on PC classes between 8th and 15th level. Not without going into hard Railroad mode for the story. It's why so many APs operate on a timer at the end. Without that timer, the players can justifiably raise armies, stockpile crafted items and recruit powerful NPCs (who are weaker than the PCs).
Depends on whether you're doing a sandbox campaign or not. Sandbox campaigns can be a lot of fun. And besides all you really need to make the PCs not waste time is enemies who are at least as powerful as the PCs and know who they are, and a nasty disposition. Any time the PCs spend prepping, so can they.
I do believe that most players see themselves as the Good Guy, even if they lack even one identifiably altruistic motivation. It's been reinforced since Gygax put pen to paper and pointed out that "PCs are Special". They aren't like other people. Yet it was Gygax who built a game full of questionable moral scenarios and a leveling up structure that just degrades at a certain point. The math breaks down eventually, so far that's been true in every edition.
This isn't incompatible with the verisimilitude stuff I'm talking about, though. You don't need to ignore PC focus for verisimilitude, just acknowledge that it's a conceit of the game, not the world, and make references to the PCs being unusual but not entirely unique, and to things happening when they aren't around.
27,000 gd is about the cost of a single large seaworthy merchant vessel.
To the trade princes of major cities that's a pittance. Now by mundanely avaricious, I mean Wishing the Black Death on your major rival and all of his family line. Totally doable within the framework of Wish. That's a pretty petty use too. Tremendously profitable if it works though.
Also I prefer Sandbox campaigns. I'm not fond of Railroady "you gotta do this" things and my longtime players giggle when I do it to them. Yet I'm not a big fan of "Well it's time to beatup gods now" games. I like games that incorporate the people around the PCs. When the power levels get totally out of hand that's impossible without some silly plot contrivances. those level 8 Experts and Aristocrats would actually be insta dead with the stuff that happens in your average 14th level adventure.
Though we may actually getting into my complaints about high level play as opposed to your thread about High level populations. So I'm gonna lay off that thought train.
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27,000 gd is about the cost of a single large seaworthy merchant vessel.
An ongoing investment, that. Unlike a Wish which is over and done immediately.
To the trade princes of major cities that's a pittance.
A reasonable amount if you want something to wish for? Sure. Pocket change? Not so much.
Now by mundanely avaricious, I mean Wishing the Black Death on your major rival and all of his family line. Totally doable within the framework of Wish. That's a pretty petty use too. Tremendously profitable if it works though.
Except that enough Remove Diseases to cure them all is probably cheaper. The same is true of most other, similar, things.
Also I prefer Sandbox campaigns. I'm not fond of Railroady "you gotta do this" things and my longtime players giggle when I do it to them. Yet I'm not a big fan of "Well it's time to beatup gods now" games. I like games that incorporate the people around the PCs. When the power levels get totally out of hand that's impossible without some silly plot contrivances. those level 8 Experts and Aristocrats would actually be insta dead with the stuff that happens in your average 14th level adventure.
Having a few people level as the PCs do is reasonable enough, I mean, the PCs are doing it so it's possible. It's when everyone does it that it breaks suspension of disbelief and starts being a problem.
Though we may actually getting into my complaints about high level play as opposed to your thread about High level populations. So I'm gonna lay off that thought train.
Probably a good call. I'll stop, too.
Oh I agree that having Stanly the Falconer become a level 19 Commoner is too much.
The reason experienced DMs scale up the city guard, is we've all seen whathappens when the players realize they're unstoppable.
Any GM who's having 10th level PCs taken down by regular city guard patrols (arbitrarily upscaled) is a pretty crappy GM IMO. Of course 10th level PCs can ride roughshod over regular troops, typical goblin lairs, etc. That doesn't mean they are all-powerful, though a 20th level PC party might be (leaving aside Baba Yaga, Treerazor and such Epic threats). I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne, so I see a lot of Korvosa demographics. The regular City Guard might be 2nd level, but there are crack squads of 5th-7th level guys too, including PC types, who can be deployed if necessary. If that's not enough, well there are the Hellknights of the Nail if you need to call in plenty of 7th-10th level types, there are the Acadamae mages, the Queen's elite Gray Maidens (Fighter-8) and so on.
Golarion has well established level demographics as per ISWG - lots of level 1-5, plenty of 6-10. 11-15 are rare though, and 16-20 are extremely rare. Overall the level spread is well designed to challenge PCs in the typical 1-15 range of most APs.
I like Golarion, I like the mental challenge of fantasy world building. I've just come to recognize that every group of PCs I've ever DMed for are virtual DemiGods by 14th level.
Sure; that's why most APs close out at 15th, so the players can enjoy being demigods a little while before retirement. If I'm running a sandbox campaign in my own setting I tend to run it 1st-8th or 1st-10th, with NPC demographics to fit.
27,000 gd is about the cost of a single large seaworthy merchant vessel.An ongoing investment, that. Unlike a Wish which is over and done immediately.
To the trade princes of major cities that's a pittance.A reasonable amount if you want something to wish for? Sure. Pocket change? Not so much.
Actually as presented in the Reign of Winter fiction I believe it possibly may be for the highest echelons. Grandmother Morgannan's mansion contains a chandelier made of 1000 fake unicorn horns and winking saying they weren't THAT rich and instead it's made of narwhal tusk. Based on the bestiary entry it would have a value of 1.6 million just with the horns alone.
With the Morgannan's being the 2nd oldest royal line of Irrisen and the Jadwiga status quo of later generations supplanting older ones this would put them into one of the lower wealth levels of the nobility and imply that the current line such as the Elvannas could afford such things.
Pretty much.
We get hung up on PC wealth by level tables. That's there for balance. The other people in the world don't sink ALL of their money into a static bonus booster. There are Aristocrats and Experts with significantly more wealth than PCs. It may not be liquid wealth but it's still there and they can borrow against Land or other Real Property.
PCs are supposed to be kinda poor, so they keep on Adventuring. Any full Caster can retire to craft and get pretty rich. Even a low level Alchemist could go into Buisness and basically blow the Wealth by Level table out of the water. PCs have more wealth than the lower classes, but income disparity is much wider in fantasy worlds than our world (unless you look at countries like Mexico, Russia or India in which billionaires control 99.97% of the wealth).
The reason experienced DMs scale up the city guard, is we've all seen whathappens when the players realize they're unstoppable.
Any GM who's having 10th level PCs taken down by regular city guard patrols (arbitrarily upscaled) is a pretty crappy GM IMO. Of course 10th level PCs can ride roughshod over regular troops, typical goblin lairs, etc. That doesn't mean they are all-powerful, though a 20th level PC party might be (leaving aside Baba Yaga, Treerazor and such Epic threats). I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne, so I see a lot of Korvosa demographics. The regular City Guard might be 2nd level, but there are crack squads of 5th-7th level guys too, including PC types, who can be deployed if necessary. If that's not enough, well there are the Hellknights of the Nail if you need to call in plenty of 7th-10th level types, there are the Acadamae mages, the Queen's elite Gray Maidens (Fighter-8) and so on.
Golarion has well established level demographics as per ISWG - lots of level 1-5, plenty of 6-10. 11-15 are rare though, and 16-20 are extremely rare. Overall the level spread is well designed to challenge PCs in the typical 1-15 range of most APs.
I'm not being arbitrary.
Korvosa is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.That 6-10 range is the sweet spot I think for population. Most of those folks are going to be older thus Experienced.
Having a world that is half clvl 1 is not practical for me in my game. City guards are routinely lvl 3 Warriors. Officers may be Fighters even. "Seasoned Veterans" can be level 5 Warriors, the "Elite" units are In the 7-10 range.
I prefer the Warrior NPC class to fighter just because it's easier to manage and that alone gives the PCs an advantage.
Having PCs steamroll the city watch, King's Guard, temple Guard is a mistake I made when I was a young DM and not one I'm willing to repeat.
I'm old fashioned though. I like campaigns to start at level 1. I like practical challenges. I like the build up, that's why I volunteer to DM. If everyone wants to jump to "Demi God Mode", I'm not the best DM candidate and PFRPG is not the best system for that. IN my opinion at least.
If players want superheroes, Mutants and Masterminds may be a better system.
Just like if players want to scheme against each other and "go rogue" they are probably better off playing PARANOIA.
And that's ok.
This is an interesting question, yet one that should be answered by individual GMs.
It's like the group that ran in Twilight 2000 campaign with the sole intent of wiping out the whole human population (they secretly kept track of how many people they killed or ran across that were dead - the sourcebooks had exact population figures. Two years in game and they announced they were the last humans alive according to the sourcebooks).
GMs may want more wiggle room. Sure, level 20 individuals should be rare, yet if the party is high level, they tend to run across more of those level 20 individuals in order to keep the campaign challenging.
It's not very realistic, yet it is consistent with fiction / storytelling tropes.
On a tangent -
These are homebrew rules on how NPCs may have more than 1st level of experience.
For most NPCs in my games, I tend to homebrew a "non-adventuring" method of gaining experience, this allows a town to have craftsmen skilled enough to supply people. I can't believe that a person that was a weaponsmith all their life needs to have violent conflict to improve at their job.
The theory is that people gain experience at their jobs should they make a critical success in a week of work. After a time the experience adds up and people improve at their jobs. So people gain, say 250 XP per critical success.
Any levels gained solely by this method limits how the NPC gains their level as follows - hit points are added as if they rolled a "1" (So adventuring PCs would likely avoid this method). Any feats gained should be related o the NPC's job, and skills should be spent on job-related improvements only.
So a first level apprentice might become second level after a few months. A few years later, may become third level. A person is at the top of their game by 6th level. Anything over 10th level is usually not obtained through this method. Of course, this applies to human lifespans. The longer lived races may gain experience more slowly or something. These "rules" are a skeleton idea to justify a 6th level merchant (NPC expert) that never had to fight a life or death battle. It's not perfect, just a justification for the hand-waving.
I'm not too totally worried about population sizes. That's a bridge I cross when it's necessary.
Where level is concerned... context, context, context.
Feudal states where most commoners never get to travel, much less study or get the resources needed to truly expand their skill set strike me as home to individuals with no more than 1-2 levels in an NPC class. In fact, as a rule of thumb, I tend to pretend the cap-off for individuals with an NPC class is level 5. I don't see a point in a Warrior getting a second attack, and I don't want to address situations where the village blacksmith could potentially be good enough to forge full plate armor.
On the flip side, I have a very hard time seeing dwarves, elves, and gnomes taking levels in NPC classes. I tend to assume that the old dwarf weaponsmith, for instance, has levels in Fighter and Wizard. Call it a lack of imagination on my part, but I've always had difficulty imagining creatures who can live for centuries and have access to magic and millennia of lore having to engage in unnecessary menial labor. It just strikes me as a forced attempt to enforce a "medieval life" stereotype.
Members of the elder races generally having levels in heroic classes also keeps me from having to worry about them fending off the younger, far more numerous races out there. :)
My face-to-face group ruled he was eaten by the Tarrasque. I was playing him as being kidnapped as part of a complex ceremony to allow a First World invasion of Golarion. Nope, they decided Tarrasque.
So, they got to fight the Tarrasque. Naturally, I was blamed for it...
The Master Craftsman feat is a nice thing for NPCs.
I don't actually mind if the village smith can make Full Plate. Sometimes How he learned it makes the Smith much more interesting. Especially if he lives in a place where no one has that type of armor.
It's routinely stated that the Commoner NPC class is awful. It's not useless though with a couple of levels on it for modeling bullies, thugs, and really big farm boys in bar fights. Sometimes all you really want is some more HP.
What the heck? My previous post was supposed to be on a different topic. I spent the last half hour wondering what happened to it.
Edit: And I apparently can't post.
I was a little confused by that one.
Having a world that is half clvl 1 is not practical for me in my game. City guards are routinely lvl 3 Warriors. Officers may be Fighters even. "Seasoned Veterans" can be level 5 Warriors, the "Elite" units are In the 7-10 range.
Curse of the Crimson Throne #1 has Korvosan Guard as War-2; likewise in Magnimar City of Monuments the Magnimar guard are War-2, as are the Sandpoint regular guard in Rise of the Runelords. So that seems to be the Golarion baseline, although the guard in GMG is War-3 and the soldier is War-1.
You can have a world where half the population are 1st level, 25% 2nd level, and have plenty of 2nd level characters to fill positions such as town guard where one might expect above-average prowess. The adventures tend to have mobs of generic townsfolk and such be War-1, which stats out pretty much identical to Com-2; either 1st or 2nd level is useable as a baseline for demographics.
BTW in 3e DMG 40% of the population are unclassed noncombatants, children etc, and these are officially not part of the listed populations at all; not sure what PF's approach to that is.
The Inner Sea World Guide [PZO9226] says on page 253:
"The vast majority of humanity are “standard,” ranging in level from 1st to 5th—most with NPC classes like commoner, expert, or warrior (it’s uncommon for a character with only NPC class levels to be above 5th level). A significant number of a nation’s movers and shakers, along with other leaders, heroes, and notables, are “exceptional,” ranging in level
from 6th to 10th. “Powerful” characters, ranging in level from 11th to 15th, are quite rare—typically only a handful of such powerful characters should exist in most nations, and they should be leaders or specially trained troops most often designed to serve as allies or enemies for use in an adventure. Finally, “legendary” characters of 16th or higher level should be exceptionally rare, and when they appear should only do so as part of a specific campaign—all legendary characters should be supported with significant histories and flavor."
I think one of the reasons you don't really meet many high-level NPCs until you yourself are high level is because because they have better things to do than autograph the sword of Joe Rat-Hacker, 1st-level Fighting-Man. Once you break into level 16+, you become their peer, and get to hang out with the cool kids.
As for "plot-breaker" spells like wish, resurrection, plane-shift, etc. other than outsider powers, I don't really allow these as spells. Oh, the powers are still there, but I make them Incantations so there's a danger to doing them. And since they're not spells, there are no scrolls of Wish win my game - rich guy wants to curse a rival, good luck finding an exceptionally high-level character skilled in Spellcraft willing to risk their neck for your get-rich(er) quick scam.
I actually ran the numbers from the D&D 3.5 DMG settlements section (yay backwards compatibility).
Here's an Average Small Town:
Yes, more people live in big cities and metropolises (which themselves are rare), and yes, there are way more tiny villages and hamlets scattered everywhere (which have small populations), but since the modifiers zero out for small towns, I figure this represents the most "average" population center in such a world, and thus the best "average slice of the D&D/PF fantasy world demographics"
Sorry about the messy formatting, I copy-pasted this off of a table I made. The numbers go "Members; Total; % of population"
"2L1" means there are two level-1 characters of that class.
Pop: 1,000
PC Classes
Class
Barbarian
1L2, 2L1
3
0.3
Bard
1L3, 2L1
3
0.3
Cleric
1L3, 2L1
3
0.3
Druid
1L3, 2L1
3
0.3
Fighter
1L4, 2L2, 4L1
7
0.7000000000000001
Monk
1L2, 2L1
3
0.3
Paladin
1L1
1
0.1
Ranger
1L1
1
0.1
Rogue
1L4, 2L2, 4L1
7
0.7000000000000001
Sorcerer
1L2, 2L1
3
0.3
Wizard
1L2, 2L1
3
0.3
Total Members
37
3.6999999999999997
Take the remaining population after all other characters are generated and divide it up so that
91% are commoners,
5% are warriors,
3% are experts, and the remaining
1% is equally divided between aristocrats and adepts (0.5% each).
NPC Classes
Class
Adept
1L3, 4L1
5
0.5
Aristocrat
1L2, 4L1
5
0.5
Commoner
1L10, 2L5, 4L2, 865L1
872
87.2
Expert
1L7, 2L3, 28L1
31
3.1
Warrior
1L5, 2L3, 47L1
50
5
Total Members
963
96.3
The number may be off slightly. Fudged remainders got dropped off into the commoner pool.