This is my preference: be delayed so they can go when restored (you shouldn't be able to go earlier than your next spot though). If you missed your turn to act because unconscious for any reason, you can go as soon as awake/positive.
I think it's easier for everyone to act on their initiative as much as possible to reduce confusion. Unless someone specifically mentions they're delaying, in which case they [obviously] know when they're acting.
I'd say if you're unconscious on your turn then you miss it. You can act when you're awake again on your own initiative. If you get woken up before your init comes up, you're just laying there getting your bearings. You don't come from near death into battle readiness instantly.
I'm with Ariella on this.
Delaying and acting the moment you wake up seems both unrealistic and overly complex in terms of the initiative order.
Sounds good.
Regarding the "unrealistic" discussion, we are dealing with a world that has magical healing. It is no more unrealistic for magical healing to exist than it is for the magical healing to make someone fully functional instantly. Actually, the game specifically allows for this.
See "Disabled" under Death and Dying
Specifically it allows:
Disabled (0 Hit Points)
When your current hit point total drops to exactly 0, you are disabled.
You gain the staggered condition and can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can you take full-round actions). You can take move actions without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other strenuous action) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. Unless your activity increased your hit points, you are now at –1 hit points and dying.
Healing that raises your hit points above 0 makes you fully functional again, just as if you'd never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.
You can also become disabled when recovering from dying. In this case, it's a step toward recovery, and you can have fewer than 0 hit points (see Stable Characters and Recovery).
just as if you'd never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.
To me this is the important part. It implies that when you wake up you'd be at the same point in the initiative, exactly as if you'd never taken the damage in the first place.
Yes, it says nothing about changing your initiative. Just like if you were stunned or paralyzed or something and someone cured you on their turn you wouldn't get to act again until your own. I'm sure you can find like 100000000000000000 threads in the rules questions forum confirming what we're saying if you need additional proof.
I don't think he was arguing the rules actually said anything about delaying. I think the discussion started about a proposed house rule, which a majority of us decided wasn't necessary.
The rule he quoted does seem to clear up the ambiguity though.
My view is actually that the rules would allow you to go at any time after being healed since by rule you are fully functional. My idea was that by rule for this campaign, when you are healed, you remain at the init slot you were in before being knocked out, unless you specifically state you wish to act earlier. Essentially you by default delay until what would otherwise be your init slot. Obviously, if you already took your turn in the round and then were knocked unconscious, and then healed before your next turn, this would be moot as you would have already acted.
Thus, this rule will only apply if/when you are unconscious for more than 1 round.
Actually, such a house rule would imply that an unconscious character can actively choose to delay. The delay action is supposed to imply waiting and watching until you choose to act.
The spell does say that you're brought back to full awareness instantly. If it's so important that you go before your allies as soon as you wake up, just ask them to delay.
Changing when a person goes in the initiative order just because they've woken up opens a can of worms. For example, a wizard casts acid arrow or flaming sphere at someone, then falls unconscious. Each round on that wizard's turn, the acid or fire continue to burn its target. After a few rounds, the wizard is revived. With your house rule, he can immediately take his turn. Does the damage get inflicted now, possibly twice before its target has been able to act? Seems unfair. Maybe the damage still happens at the same time, divorced from the wizard's initiative: now we're giving spells their own initiative. Ewwww.
When you fall unconscious, you are still acting. Your action for the round is lie there and bleed (or stabilize). Either way, it's a full round action, so when you wake up, if it was somebody after you in the rotation, you've already "acted" that round, just like if somebody after you in the rotation had dispelled a hold person (though at least with the hold person, I could see someone arguing that they just delay until freed, of course that would mean forfeiting the saving throws each round).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When you fall unconscious, you are still acting. Your action for the round is lie there and bleed
In related news, cranberry juice feels awful inside sinuses.
Delaying is a mechanic already in the rules, and my wizards employ it to disrupt spellcasting fairly frequently. The wizard, who has cast an acid arrow or summoned monster, then delays a brace of magic missile to counter the enemy spellcaster. His new 'initiative' by RAW is just before the person he disrupts. His summoned monster may have the 'original' initiative.
Anyway, I am fine either way. But RAW seems to indicate if you have been unconscious for a full round, you can act immediately upon being awakened. I have no problem with a 'discrete' implementation of initiative turns and say you must wait for your spot rather than a 'continuous' implementation. And yes, I am a math/stats/engineer by trade :-)
Alright guys. I'm off on my trip. I'd be happy with either Doomed Hero or GM Blood running Ariella until I get back.
I volunteer Ari to check for traps...
We are supposed to check for traps. I thought that it was already decided that we were putting the heavily armored troops up front to disarm the traps.
I had not thought about the fact that stabilizing/bleeding is a full round action. If that is the case, then by default you would not be able to go until your next init turn anyway.
Interesting discussion, either way it is supposed to be, we'll be doing it by staying in your initiative. I'll find some way down the road to use it against you. Of course I would do that with either way we decided ;)
I'm still gonna be checking things, just might not have time to post a lot :P
It appears the honor of the GnollBaiters Company is at stake. How about Jokbur and Qui will take advance guard and try to guide us to the cabin so we can secure it.
Once we get into the dungeon I think Qui's default position should be on the ceiling :)
In your average hallway he could hang out above Jokbur, not take penalties from trying to fire past people in front of him, get +1 for attacking from Higher Ground.
When we are holding off bad guys in a doorway, he can hang out above it getting cover from the section of wall above the door and attacking down at anyone who passes underneath him.
I never really thought about how handy a tiny frog-man would be inside a dungeon.
I am thinking of making a combination large backpack/ghillie suit for Qui to ride on my back. Make it the same color scheme as Qui's skin, make it large and deep enough he can have cover and concealment. Many options are out there with a grippli I never considered.
That way when I am lowered by rope into 'the dungeon' Qui is free to jump out and act.
I have a climb speed of 20' and a movement of 30'. I am surprisingly quick.
Remember, my goal is to eliminate the need for armor by taking monk levels. And then to get Combat Expertise with Lore Warden and Butterfly Sting. Then anyone with a 3x or 4x weapon hitting behind me will be doing some massive damage.
Note to self- get Hermann a Naginata or Hooked Lance
and then qui and I will take Sieze the Moment at 9th level.
Even a simple earthbreaker or greataxe would do the job. Or a Pickaxe or Scythe if we are not going eastern with weapons.
High AC + Butterfly Sting makes for a nasty flanker.
I want to be wrong about going back.
I asked about the Knowledge check, because it would help if we knew that wolves like to trip when they bite, as that's likely to be our main weak point: the guy holding the doorway going prone.
Go ahead with Knowledge nature and Arcana for when they come (in game play)
Still working on my maptools skills but that is the best I can do so far.
Woah, wait. No perception check?
I lit up the place like christmas specifically to avoid that.
Perception Quirmydt Dephroug 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (7) + 8 = 15
Perception Hermann von Rabenstrange 1d20 + 0 ⇒ (17) + 0 = 17
Perception Jonas Hearth 1d20 + 0 ⇒ (17) + 0 = 17
It's in the DM's spoiler.
Yep, I spoiler pretty much everything except attack rolls. They are there to see if wanted otherwise less clutter
Gotcha. I missed that. I don't check spoilers that aren't labeled for me.
Well, ouch.
You could withdraw for no AOO and move 40'. Full defense is a standard action, move to stand. That would be your turn and you're exposing yourself to another attack.
I thought that prone lowered your speed to half, but I just looked it up and it doesn't from what I can tell. I'm sure I might be missing something though.
Prone:
"The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity."
I have seen a one square movement allowed: crawling while prone that does not provoke (as a full action). This is a house rule and not RAW. Being a traditionalist, as a DM I do not allow it. Being prone should be dangerous.
Otherwise, this is what is RAW.
Pg. 186 Core-second column
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action.
Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers
who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling
character is considered prone and must take a move action
to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.
My suggestion, use the smite evil and attack from the ground. Although I often save them up, these are desperate enough circumstances and should cancel out the prone bonus pretty well.
Edmund may delay until just before the wolves to provide that last sure shot to take put down the heavily wounded. As Ariella pointed out, we need to put one down, preferrably the middle one.
Ok, Smite from prone it is. Have to use Armor Spikes. I'll go for the one in the middle.
It occurs to me that I should describe why I'm using my back-up weapon instead of one of the big ones...
When I stated I left the spear behind in the cottage I mentally associated it with the greatsword as well. "In character" I'd have it with me but when I posted I (as a player) thought I'd left it behind. I will endeavor to play smart-er going forwards because I'd really hate to get us all killed from being an idiot.
Qui, I was suggesting the hit and five step at the southernmost wolf, so I could shoot at a wolf without a -4 penalty. Neither Ariella or I have precise shot, so we need to creatively maneuvre to give us unengaged targets. With Jonas adjacent to the northern two wolves while prone, it left only a chance at the southernmost this round.
I can't fire at the middle one as it would be -8 total penalty with soft cover and engaged.
Thanks for the crawling thing Jokbur. I knew it did something I just didn't know what to look up.
GM Blood can you number the worgs please?
Edit:So assuming GM Blood will let Qui addend a 5' step to H22 onto his action, we're just waiting on Jockbur to fire at the southernmost wolf and Edmund to act right?
They were numbered at some point, I'll re-do it when I get a chance. Until then, #1 is the northern most one, #2, Southern, #3 middle that is damaged
I did not realize that Herman had moved. I will 5'-move into his slot then if that is acceptable.
Speaking of my movement, I would have moved back only one square because I posted when I thought Jonas was going to crawl backwards and I was trying to communicate that with my "keep with us" statement.
If I move back 1 square, it would look like
.
.
(empty) (Jonas)
(Herma) (Quirm)
Speaking of my movement, I would have moved back only one square because I posted when I thought Jonas was going to crawl backwards and I wanted to keep pace with him, which I was trying to communicate with my "keep with us" statement.
If I move back 1 square, it would look like
.
.
(empty) (Jonas)
(Herma) (Quirm)
fixed.
Were you attacking before 5' stepping?
This is partially my fault, but I think from now on we need to just post one action and stick with it. We should also wait to post in order to avoid all this endless retconning.
If you want to post an action in discussion first so we can all get on the same page, cool, but this is just getting sloppy. I'm having a lot of difficulty keeping what's actually going on straight right now.
Edit:
Initiative - Monster, Hermann, Ariella, Quirmydt, Edmund, Jonas, Jokbur
So the wolves went, tripped Jonas. Hermann stepped back 5'. I yell at you to stop being idiots and grab the door. Qui attacks the middle one (and 5' steps north?), Edmund hits the middle one with a magic missle. Jonas smites it with his shield. Then finally Jockbur fires an arrow at number 2 and misses. Is that correct?
*smites with his armor spikes.
Uhp. Looks like GM Blood is updating as I type...and Qui missed his 5' step. Hermann should finish off 3, I will delay until after Qui and then he can attack #2 and 5' step north. I will throw fire at number 2. Edmund will missle #2 (if he still has spells). Jonas I dunno... Jockbur can shoot at #2 as well. Sound good?
Paizo is very sluggish for me right now and I am struggling with finishing this update. Round 2 should be ready. #3 is very damaged
So Jonas is at -3 now. I forgot my little fireballs only have a 30' range. So I can't do that, I guess I'm going with longbow.
Unless Jonas's AC is different than listed, he didn't get hit last round, only Quirmydt