The fight scene in Kingdom of Heaven where Balian de Ibelin (BdI) slaughters three heavily armed and armored knights whilst completely unarmed is one of the coolest medieval fight scenes I've seen anywhere.
I've found this scene to be rather simple in nature, yet almost impossible to duplicate with Pathfinder's rules. I challenge you to duplicate this scene using Pathfinder's core rules (no 3.5) without having to resort to house rules or other made up nonsense.
Here is a clip of the scene for reference.
Among other things, I'm curious to see how you might go about simulating "BdI's bashing a knight with an improvised weapon while simultaneously driving him back with a bull rush" part of the video.
Getting this scene to work within the rules was extraordinarily difficult for me. It might be really easy for you. Whatever, I'm bored and want to see what you all might come up with.
Assuming the rounds are not limited to a literal six seconds and take place simultaneously rather than being turn-based, I'll take a crack at it.
Round 1: Balian bullrushes Templar 1, while Mounted Templar misses his ride-by attack and Templar 2 also misses.
So the "bullrush with an improvised weapon" portion is a simple bullrush. That hitting an armored man in the helmet with a stone would not do any physical damage.
The mounted ride-by attack missing Balian is just a low to hit roll. It striking Templar 1 is outside the rules.
Templar 2 also misses.
Round 2: Balian attacks a Templar 1 again. Mounted Templar succeeds with a grazing hit on Balian.
Balian grabs the pottery (move action) and makes an Improved Vital Strike (represented by the three attacks, that is triple damage) which kills Templar 1.
Mounted Templar tries another ride-by attack and hits but rolls low on the damage.
Templar 2 attacks and misses (due to Balian's dodge/Dex bonus).
Round 3: Balian moves and trips Templar 2 while Templar 2 tries to stand, provoking an AoO, and Mounted Templar fails a ride check to control his mount in combat.
Balian makes an unarmed trip attempt against Templar 2 and succeeds.
Templar 2 tries to stand, provoking an AoO from Balian. Balian kills him with an unarmed AoO. Obviously Balian took Improved Unarmed Strike.
Mounted Templar fails to control him mount in combat and continues straight forward.
Round 5: Balian retrieves Templar 2's weapon and moves to face off against Mounted Templar, who has dismounted and moved forward too.
Pretty self explanatory. Moving on to Round 6.
Round 6: Balian reserves his action and disarms (Un)Mounted Templar.
Balian reserves an action to disarm Mounted Templar if he attacks.
Mounted Templar attacks and Balian disarms him and chooses to retain the weapon.
Round 7: Balian makes an attack against Mounted Templar (a trip attempt maybe?). Mounted Templar stands.
The only reason I can find for Balian to make Mounted Templar fall down is a trip attempt. It doesn't make sense visually, but just call it a re-flavor.
Mounted Templar stands.
Round 8: Balian's attack is blocked and Mounted Templar trips Balian.
Mounted Templar blocks Balians attack due to the shield bonus.
Mounted Templar trips Balian.
Round 9: Balian tries to stand and provokes and then reserves an action and then Mounted Templar grapples.
Balian tries to stand and provokes the punch to the face. (Gauntlets allow AoOs.) He then reserves an action to attack Mounted Templar when he attacks.
Mounted Templar grapples which triggers Balian's reserved action, which he uses Sleight of Hand to steal Mounted Templar's dagger.
Round 10: Balian stabs Mounted Templar.
With the dagger he just stole, Balian stabs Mounted Templar and crits, which kills Mounted Templar.
For some reason Balian collapses. Maybe Mounted Templar had a +1 Wounding Gauntlet or something, which caused Balian to drop into the negatives where he stabilizes.
How does that look to anyone?
Maybe he was raging, and the end of his rage caused him to collapse into negatives, where he stabilizes.
He could also have the Diehard feat. That allowed him to stay up a negative HP...and then after the fight he "rested" to get back to positive HP.
Those are both much more elegant than needing magical gauntlets. Die Hard makes the most sense, since Balian is obviously a Fighter and not a Barbarian.
Now we need to stat the four combatants...
We've accounted for 9 of Balian's 13 feats (he needs to be 11th level for Improved Vital Strike).
Power Attack
Improved Bullrush
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Endurance
Die Hard
He also needs a 13 Str, 13 Int and a positive Dex (to have dodged an attack due to Dex). He also needs a good deal of ranks in Sleight of Hand.
cool stuff
orsm. dnd explains life (and movies)!
Don't forget a level or two in adept, with ranks in Profession(Blacksmith) and Craft(weapons)...we need to keep it contextually valid, don't we?
Although, how he managed to pick up at least 11 levels in the short period of training time in the forests is beyond me.
They killed a lot of bandits and wild beast off screen. Oh, and they were ambushed by a hydra once.
|
If you watch the extended version, bailian has been in wars before as an engineer...hence why he knew how to set up the siege weapons at the end. So he would have quite a few levls of expert with skills of blacksmith, craft weapons and armor and knowledge.
I still call hollywood BS on the fight scene...see other agree he was hit with the flail...which in real life really doesn't have a roll low on damage. That sucker hits ya, you die. Not to mention a slew of stupidity on tne templars' part...and the magic piece of pottery. Although, your right, the rock does hit lower on the helm. If it hits the brdige of the nose quite right, it can disorient...but not for as long as that bullrush happened for...barring exceptional string of luck. Hell even the first hit doing it would be luck since your striking rather blindly through a helm.
I still call hollywood BS on the fight scene...see other agree he was hit with the flail...which in real life really doesn't have a roll low on damage. That sucker hits ya, you die. Not to mention a slew of stupidity.. etc.
Which is why it's perfect to model with game rules like D&D. D&D combat is designed around pulp fantasy action. I don't think that fight was all that cheesy. Historically/real-life accurate? Of course, not, but at least they made it look gritty and relatively realistic. Remember, you're playing a game where any mid level character, armor or no, can eat a direct swing with a greatsword and still fight at full capacity.
I still think the pottery part was just fine. It was a BIG THICK piece of pottery. Even when banged on armor it isn't likely to give way that easily. If it was a thin vase, then it would have shattered for sure, but it wasn't. It was nearly an inch thick! It would take several hard swings against an unyielding surface for it to break. The armor, may not have yielded to the blows, but the man in the armor certainly did.
I would also like to point out that he hit the man in the throat, with the edge of the pottery. In all liklyhood he collapsed the man's windpipe.
(I admit that, up to this point, I thought the man hit with the pottery and the man who got curb stomped were one and the same, but now I see the pottery man's corpse in the background leaning against the well as the second guy gets curb stomped. That means there were either four templars, or the one hit on the head with the flail recovered and got curb stomped.)
|
|
I have no issue with this combat in terms of hollywood fights or a fantasy game fight. I do have an issue with this as a REALISTIC fight. This is from the previous thread where ravingdork says this is a realistic fight.
As for the flail and glancing blows...I got to use the flail to break up some pig skulls...there is no glancing blows with this weapon, you either miss or you cause death. And I wasn't even on horseback. If your reacting to it, you got hit...and something should be broken (which is death in a real fight). Now in the movie scene, the flail wsn't swung right since that would have cause the stuntman to...umm die...but if we're looking at this fight from a realism point, we'd have to assuming the flail would have been swung properly.
As for doing stupid things...how is that related to levels? A level 1 archer charging within melee range is just as stupid as a level 11 archer doing the same. Bad tactics is bad tactics pure and simple. The first guys actually stops his swing before getting hit and opens his shield up for crying out loud. That level of stupidity is called main character plot protection.
I guess he coul be a fighter with 4 crafts (armor, weapon, silversmith and blacksmith...he is said to be able to do all four) and knoweldge(engineering)...except that the knoweldge wouldn't be in class. However it is stated that he didn't actually FIGHT in the previous wars...just provided knoweldge so I think expert is the right fit.
|
|
I still think the pottery part was just fine. It was a BIG THICK piece of pottery. Even when banged on armor it isn't likely to give way that easily. If it was a thin vase, then it would have shattered for sure, but it wasn't. It was nearly an inch thick! It would take several hard swings against an unyielding surface for it to break. The armor, may not have yielded to the blows, but the man in the armor certainly did.
I would also like to point out that he hit the man in the throat, with the edge of the pottery. In all liklyhood he collapsed the man's windpipe.
(I admit that, up to this point, I thought the man hit with the pottery and the man who got curb stomped were one and the same, but now I see the pottery man's corpse in the background leaning against the well as the second guy gets curb stomped. That means there were either four templars, or the one hit on the head with the flail recovered and got curb stomped.)
See, I have made those middle eastern pottery for an archeology class. They are made with quite a few impurities compared to something like stoneware. They aren't even as strong as terracotta. A 1 inch thick terracotta WILL shatter against a steel helm...and that stuff was weaker, more prone to fracturing.
And yes he does kill the man with that piece of pottery.
Now that you mention it, yeah that knight who got squarely thudded with the flail gets up again...tha also shouldn't be happening.
As for doing stupid things...how is that related to levels? A level 1 archer charging within melee range is just as stupid as a level 11 archer doing the same. Bad tactics is bad tactics pure and simple. The first guys actually stops his swing before getting hit and opens his shield up for crying out loud. That level of stupidity is called main character plot protection.
I agree. Many of the knights' tactics were really stupid. Chock it up to overconfidence I guess (their target was unarmored, unarmed, AND exhausted after all).
See, I have made those middle eastern pottery for an archeology class. They are made with quite a few impurities compared to something like stoneware. They aren't even as strong as terracotta. A 1 inch thick terracotta WILL shatter against a steel helm...and that stuff was weaker, more prone to fracturing.
Good thing he didn't hit him in the helm then. He slammed it into the night's chest once to get him against the well, and then followed up by slamming it into the knight's throat once or twice (which at best was protected by chainmail).
And yes he does kill the man with that piece of pottery.
It certainly appears that way.
Now that you mention it, yeah that knight who got squarely thudded with the flail gets up again...tha also shouldn't be happening.
I agree. That (and the fact that the hero may well have been hit in the head) IS most certainly unrealistic.
|
|
As for the flail and glancing blows...I got to use the flail to break up some pig skulls...there is no glancing blows with this weapon, you either miss or you cause death. And I wasn't even on horseback. If your reacting to it, you got hit...and something should be broken (which is death in a real fight). Now in the movie scene, the flail wsn't swung right since that would have cause the stuntman to...umm die...but if we're looking at this fight from a realism point, we'd have to assuming the flail would have been swung properly.
When a spherical object collides with another spherical object, the angle of incidence is the primary factor in judging how much energy is transferred. Physics says that it is absolutely possible for a spherical flail ball to connect with a spherical skill in such a way that the person hit can get up and still fight.
Besides, how do you think BdI lost all his HP's?
Except that the flail head isn't a sphere. Any one of those pointy bits will transfer enough energy to shatter bone...when the weapon is swung properly (which it wasn't in the movie...for obvious safety reasons).
Except that the flail head isn't a sphere. Any one of those pointy bits will transfer enough energy to shatter bone...when the weapon is swung properly (which it wasn't in the movie...for obvious safety reasons).
Just curious, how IS a flail swung properly anyhow?
|
|
Except that the flail head isn't a sphere. Any one of those pointy bits will transfer enough energy to shatter bone...when the weapon is swung properly (which it wasn't in the movie...for obvious safety reasons).Just curious, how IS a flail swung properly anyhow?
On foot, you swing it in a figure 8 paterrn in front of your body and snap it at the target. On horseback, you use a tear drop shape and snap it at the target. We tried this using cornstarch stage flails for a stage show. The actor that got hit with a PROP ended up having 3 fractures on his arm. Had that hit his head, he would have likely died. Which is why I don't fault KoH for using improper technique. Even with prop flails, it's bloody dangerous.
On foot, you swing it in a figure 8 paterrn in front of your body and snap it at the target. On horseback, you use a tear drop shape and snap it at the target. We tried this using cornstarch stage flails for a stage show. The actor that got hit with a PROP ended up having 3 fractures on his arm. Had that hit his head, he would have likely died. Which is why I don't fault KoH for using improper technique. Even with prop flails, it's bloody dangerous.Except that the flail head isn't a sphere. Any one of those pointy bits will transfer enough energy to shatter bone...when the weapon is swung properly (which it wasn't in the movie...for obvious safety reasons).Just curious, how IS a flail swung properly anyhow?
It sounds like you are talking about a morning star. A flail is a short piece chained to a long piece. I have never seen a real one but have been told it is used similarly to a greatsword. I did have a chain whip,
One obvious feat that should be mentioned, possessed by virtually all Hollywood action heroes: Catch Off Guard. No penalties for improvised weapons is a big deal in a fight like this.
|
I would like to thank Mauril for taking the time to lay this all out. Very cool.
Maybe we can have this as a regular forum feature - Movie Fights.
I would like someone can try to setup the alley brawl between Keith David and Rowdy Roddy Piper in "They Live", lol. I don't think the PF CMB/MD system is robust enough.
|
I had about 10 rounds of combat, give or take a few seconds, and thought Bailan might have the following feats: Power Attack, Imp. Disarm, Imp. Unarmed Strike, Diehard, Caught Off Guard.
Initiative Order: Templar 2 (starts mounted, then dismounts in first round), Bailan, Templar 1 (foot), Templar 3 (mounted till final fight)
Round 1:
Bailan takes 5' step and gets full attacks on Templar 1 with Improvised Weapon (rock), hitting with Power Attack.
Templar 2 meanwhile fails with an Intimidate (demoralize) action and dismounts.
Templar 1 takes a 5' step back and Bailan follows using an immediate action from Step Up feat. Templar 1 invites an AoO by going for an item, and Bailan hits, killing Templar 1. The DM forgot there are no healing potions in this setting but still had it in his notes. That's what Templar 1, who was 1st level, was going for. The DM marks this off the page and moves on.
Templar 3 delays his initiative until the "start" of Round 2 (or very end of Round 1).
Round 2:
Templar 3 charges, attacks with his flail but misses (DM descriptive fluff to hit Templar 1 since Templar 1 is already dead). Templar 3 invites no AoO since he has the feat Ride-by-Attack.
Templar 2, using TWF with the sword and shield, attacks twice and hits with the off-hand shield.
Bailan uses a move action to grab an Improvised Weapon (pottery) and dodges Templar 2's AoO. He then attacks and hits with the pottery.
Round 3:
Templar 2 delays his actions until Templar 3 (mounted) can act.
Bailan rolls a Natural 20 with the pottery but does not confirm the critical hit. Still, Templar 2 is down to 2 hit points. Bailan, being a stud, throws the pottery away for flavor.
Templar 3 again charges and hits with the flail. Bailan is not 1st levle and survives.
Round 4:
Templar 2 attacks but misses.
Bailan, with Imp. Unarmed Strike, hits twice. He uses lethal damage on the foot attack, taking out Templar 2.
Templar 3 dismounts but takes no other actions.
Round 5:
Bailan uses a move action to pickup a sword and moves 5' towards Templar 3.
Templar 3 readies an action to attack if Bailan charges, but it does not occur.
Round 6:
Bailan readies his action to use Improved Disarm with Templar 3 attacks.
Templar 3 attacks and is disarmed. A DM homebrew table rolls that the disarm attempt intertwines the weapon, and the next attack with the intertwined weapons will dislodge them. Normally, the disarm doesn't allow you to grab the enemy's weapon unless you are unarmed.
Round 7:
Bailan attacks, critically hitting with the sword-flail. He confirms the critical hit. DM uses a homebrew critical hit table. He rolls that the attack knocks the enemy prone and dazes him until the end of the round.
Templar 3 takes no actions as he is dazed.
Round 8:
Bailan attacks with the sword but misses.
Templar 3 trips Bailan using Improved Trip, knocking Bailan prone. Templar 3 then uses a move action to sheathe his sword (dumb move).
Round 9:
Bailan attempts to get up and is hit by Templar 3's AoO (gauntlets). The damage is lethal and takes Bailan to 0 hit points. He is disabled and chooses to "play dead" rather than use a standard action.
Templar 3 attempts to grapple Bailan and fails, inviting an AoO. Bailan uses Imp. Disarm to take Templar 3's dagger (after getting a DM ruling that this would be allowed). Bailan takes 1 point of damage from the attempt, but he has the Diehard Feat, which allows him to act staggered when at negative hit points.
Round 10:
Bailan attacks with the dagger, rolling a 19 and confirming the critical hit, killing Templar 3. He takes another 1 point of damage and is dropped to "dying." Fortunately, he stabilizes next round and is eventually rescued.
|
|
Maybe we can have this as a regular forum feature - Movie Fights.I would like someone can try to setup the alley brawl between Keith David and Rowdy Roddy Piper in "They Live", lol. I don't think the PF CMB/MD system is robust enough.
They Live is my favorite movie. That fight is a drag out street fight. Anyone up to the challenge?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZpdUUdd3I
|
|
It sounds like you are talking about a morning star. A flail is a short piece chained to a long piece. I have never seen a real one but have been told it is used similarly to a greatsword. I did have a chain whip,On foot, you swing it in a figure 8 paterrn in front of your body and snap it at the target. On horseback, you use a tear drop shape and snap it at the target. We tried this using cornstarch stage flails for a stage show. The actor that got hit with a PROP ended up having 3 fractures on his arm. Had that hit his head, he would have likely died. Which is why I don't fault KoH for using improper technique. Even with prop flails, it's bloody dangerous.Except that the flail head isn't a sphere. Any one of those pointy bits will transfer enough energy to shatter bone...when the weapon is swung properly (which it wasn't in the movie...for obvious safety reasons).Just curious, how IS a flail swung properly anyhow?
No a morning star is on a solid shaft. The short piece attached to a long pole is a farmer's flail, not a weapon of war. However there are "war" versions of the farmer's flail. There are other names for the spiked ball attached to a chain and handle...like a ball and chain...or my personal favorite holy water sprinker. Course that one applies to a morning start in some sources as well. It's kinda the hardest thing when dealing with talking about weapons of the era...absolutely no idea of standization :P .