It's in the campaign tab already. Still, if you want to consolidate the whole thing, there's little harm in that, I suppose.
Personally, I think we should think about our long-term goals here. Which cities can we lead our ragtag group of refugees to?
Alternatively, could we capture a patrol so we can get some intel to decide further action?
Short term though, I'd want to get further into the woods before we stop to rest. I dislike being this close to the river for a rest.
Not a discrepancy. What I posted here is one hour's worth of work for a temporary will-only-last-the-night shelter. What I posted in the campaign page takes all day, but gives you a shelter that will stand up to repeated days' use, and only heavy abuse or serious weather events might compromise it.
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@GM Can NPCs take 10 on some of their checks, such as crafting?
Also, can they attempt to forage, without the Survival skill? For example, getting a flat d20 (or +1 from racial wis)?
Some distance wouldn't hurt, though i don't know about moving to another city. Thought we were sort of stranded in the wilderness to try and retake city type thing. Figure out what's going on, like you're saying, see where we can go from there. Maybe a day's travel away then set up a base of operations? Further if you'd like. We only have 2 full days worth of provisions though. I somewhat gave up on the google document, what i was trying to setup was more hassle than it was worth.
After we decide make a camp, honestly, the provisions gained from herding is minuscule and other than having some NPCs with nothing they can do but handling animals there doesn't seem to be a reason to place any there. Most NPCs with a skill in survival can on average return enough provisions for themselves and two others. Optimistically, we would be able to make do with just 12 gatherers (buffered a bit by the animal keepers for possible poor days of foraging). I only count 7 though, if we can get those two hostiles to play along. The way dice work though, even non-trained survivalists could earn enough for them self and one other.
The first day we actually set up a real camp, we'll probably want most of the survivalists getting a camp set up though, but we'll likely have enough provisions for this.
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Again, assuming the hostiles start to play nice and non-trained NPCs can use generic skills, we almost meet our daily provisions (on a normal day of foraging) by devoting the following to it:
Foraging, Good Survival
Jet, CG human aristocrat 2 (hp 7, att/dam +1/1d6, Con +0, Know: local +5, Sense Motive +5, Survival +5)
Kining, LE dwarf expert 2 (hp 9, att/dam +1/1d4, Con +1, Craft: weapons +5, Craft: stonemasonry +5, Know: engineering +5, Prof: merchant +6, Stealth +5, Survival +6)
Netthias, LN dwarf aristocrat 1 (hp 5, att/dam +0/1d6, Con +1, Know: history +4, Sense Motive +5, Survival +5)
Fiosha, NG human aristocrat 1 (hp 4, att/dam +0/1d6, Con +0, Know: nobility +4, Sense Motive +4, Survival +4)
Harvel, NG human expert 1 (hp 4, att/dam +0/1d4, Con +1, Craft: clothes +4, Craft: woodworking +4, Know: geography +4, Prof: actor +4, Stealth +4, Survival +4)
HOSTILE - Farrow, LN human aristocrat 1 (hp 4, att/dam +0/1d6, Con +0, Know: local +4, Sense Motive +4, Survival +4) - HOSTILE
HOSTILE - Clidon, LN human aristocrat 1 (hp 4, att/dam +0/1d6, Con +0, Know: local +4, Sense Motive +4, Survival +4) - HOSTILE
Foraging, +1 from Wisdom
Clem, CE oread warrior 1 (hp 6, att/dam +2/1d6+1, Con +1, Handle Animal +3)
Geerum, NG dwarf commoner 1 (hp 4, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +2, Craft: glass +4, Handle Animal +3, Perception +5)
Ragam Gardaxe, CN dwarf commoner 1 (hp 4, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +2, Craft: leather +4, Handle Animal +3, Perception +5)
Sanna Gardaxe, CG dwarf commoner 1 (hp 4, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +2, Prof: farmer +5, Handle Animal +3, Perception +5)
Gerard Gardaxe, CG dwarf commoner 1 (hp 4, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +2, Prof: farmer +5, Handle Animal +3, Perception +5)
And this is how i initially look at the rest, hopefully the lackluster herding will pull up the slack.
Nothing but Handle Animal
Mershan, N human warrior 1 (hp 6, att/dam +2/1d6+1, Con +1, Handle Animal +4)
Andrum, CN human warrior 1 (hp 6, att/dam +2/1d6+1, Con +1, Handle Animal +4)
Negan Kusk, NG human warrior 1 (hp 6, att/dam +2/1d6+1, Con +1, Handle Animal +4)
Lirosa, CG half-elf warrior 1 (hp 6, AC 11, att/dam +2/1d8, Con +1, Handle Animal +4)
Taidel, CG half-elf warrior 1 (hp 6, AC 11, att/dam +2/1d8, Con +1, Handle Animal +4)
Good Scouting (Stealth)
Tanram, N halfling commoner 1 (hp 3, AC 12, att/dam +2/1d3, Con +1, Craft: leatherworking +4, Handle Animal +5, Perception +6)
Toriya, NE gnome warrior 1 (hp 7, AC 11, att/dam +2/1d4, Con +2, Handle Animal +5)
Standing Watch / Support
Phersi, CN half-elf commoner 1 (hp 3, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +1, Craft: shoes +4, Handle Animal +4, Perception +6)
Minshiel, CN elf commoner 1 (hp 2, AC 11, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +0, Craft: armor +5, Handle Animal +4, Perception +6)
Rori, N human commoner 1 (hp 3, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +1, Craft: clothing +4, Handle Animal +4, Perception +4)
Varesha, NE tiefling commoner 1 (hp 3, AC 11, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +1, Craft: paintings +5, Handle Animal +5, Perception +4)
Mako Kusk, CN half-orc commoner 1 (hp 3, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +1, Craft: weapons +4, Handle Animal +4, Perception +4)
Imiraq, N human commoner 1 (hp 3, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +1, Craft: clothing +4, Handle Animal +4, Perception +4)
Mori, CN human commoner 1 (att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +1, Craft: brewer +4, Handle Animal +4, Perception +4)
Healing / Identification of Gear
Rhyna, N human adept 2 (hp 6, att/dam +0/1d4-1, Con +0, Heal +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Spellcraft +5)
Salesi, N human adept 1 (hp 3, att/dam -1/1d4-1, Con +0, Heal +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Spellcraft +4)
Yangvit, NG dwarf adept 1 (hp 4, att/dam -1/1d4-1, Con +1, Heal +5, Knowledge (religion) +4, Spellcraft +4)
Aubrin
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I'm not considering ourselves (or Gareth) in this, and i know a good amount of us are good survivalists so it can be rearranged somewhat. I'm also not considering the first day of making shelters, or a need to repair them, or if we want my son to be crafting weapons, etc.
It's in the campaign tab already. Still, if you want to consolidate the whole thing, there's little harm in that, I suppose.
Yeah, but it's a text dump and a pain to navigate on a phone. I can lay it out relatively easily in the google doc (when I have time and the site is cooperating) so it's easy to spot who has a particular skill and what their bonus is. I'm not claiming special skillz here, but I think I must have a different format in mind - I'm sure Iteb would crank it out in nothing flat if I tried to describe it. It's not a crisis, so I won't confuse everyone, I will just show it to you later.
Questions:
1) What time of day is it? How much time do we have to travel through relatively unknown woods without risking a lot of injuries from our band of refugees? I'm with Jeb - I would rather not be within easy reach of the near side of the river - we don't know what resources they have. Maybe travel an hour, then spend an hour setting up camp before collapsing into bedrolls, if we have them?
2) How are we determining hit points for next level? Average? Roll for it here? Roll twice and take the better?
3) Looking at my potential bonus feats, I'm planning to be pretty one-trick archery, so that narrows things down quite a bit. A survey for the other players - would you suggest I focus on damage or accuracy at this point? I might play with damage potential later, but what's your gut say?
Nice breakdown, Iteb. Looks like it took some work.
NPCs can, as a general rule (that might change, depending on context), take 10 on those tasks.
However, they have a -2 total modifier on any skill they aren't trained in.
Also, until Farrow and Clidon have been made at least indifferent, they won't do anything for you guys at all.
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Alright, so any NPC without a skill in something, has a -2 regardless of race and size. I'll have to look at the layout again with that in mind.
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Hm. So if we had a decent Animal Handler to keep 5 or so animals consistently, he would be feeding a little less than himself and another person per day. With failure leading to loss of animals it'd become far more inconsistent than a day's simple lack of forage for a person. Taking ten, and it'd be decent to have, maybe if the animal handlers are allowed to split up the task so each had 5 or 4 animals and took ten... but the buildup to get the animals isn't worth it.
Whereas, even a person untrained and with the -2 in Survival, the average is they feed themselves and after four days a second person.
Even if we just butchered animals the animal handlers brought in, they'd barely be feeding themselves on average...
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Better off to just shove everyone into foraging besides the few we want to keep in scouting, watching for us, and identifying/healing...
I'll see if I can't put together a way of generating 36provision points/day with what we've got.
It would be nice to be self sustaining.
I've got +6 in Survival (as long as this counts as forest terrain. +5 elsewhere). Should be able to make 4 Provision Points or build shelter for 3 by taking 10.
For sake of planning, I have a +5 on Survival checks.
Just to make sure I understand, can we assume that if a skill is listed for an NPC, they are trained in that skill? Anything not listed is a -2, regardless of their ability scores (if we know them)?
Also for planning watches, include Aerel in those candidates with darkvision. Assuming we don't just leave that to NPCs all the time.
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That's how i understood it, and what i tried to clarify with him-- but i would love to hear that to be the case. It changes a lot if they get default racial scores, or size bonuses to stealth.
We all have good survival, pretty much, and so I'm confident in our ability to provide enough provision points for everyone-- I'm just assuming that we won't always be able to devote our day and am trying to figure out the self-sustaining NPC organization. Guess i'll start to add Gareth to that NPC group.
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Also, not posting in Game-play since I'm still unconscious.
Just to make sure I understand, can we assume that if a skill is listed for an NPC, they are trained in that skill? Anything not listed is a -2, regardless of their ability scores (if we know them)?
As things stand, yes. There is a mechanic by which that can change for some people, but for now, yes. Call it the "refugees who are out of their depth" penalty if you like.
As soon as i see the chance, I'm going to beeline for the opportunity to train some of these commoners in the art of survival.
+1
In trying to answer my own question, it appears that I will get the best damage from Focused Shot (which only applies if I'm within 30' of the target). Rapid Shot seems to average out as the next-best damage output and my best option beyond 30'. Much as I was trying to avoid to be completely prototypical with my feat selection, I think Rapid Shot is probably my best choice for my bonus feat. What are you guys doing - do you have grand schemes for your characters that you are willing to share?
I'm going for a Slashing Grace build. A bit delayed since I took Breadth of Experience at 1st Level, but I'll get there. Then once my Mutagen kicks in I can boost Dex sky high and improve my AC, Attack, Damage, and Initiative all at once. Probably eventually going into the Duelist Prestige Class.
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Focused Shot loses a lot of opportunity later on since it doesn't play nice with multiple attacks. In addition, i think vital strike is better in most cases, anyway, if you're taking a single attack.
For myself, nothing special. Just a glorified crit-fisher. I see a 20? My weapon breaks. I see a hit? They're going to start bleeding... and my weapon breaks. I roll really poorly? My weapon breaks.
Focused Shot loses a lot of opportunity later on since it doesn't play nice with multiple attacks. In addition, i think vital strike is better in most cases, anyway, if you're taking a single attack.
Good points. That's why I like to solicit other player's thoughts. I note that Vital Strike and Focused Shot are not mutually exclusive, of course. When I start getting sneak attack damage that will make me want to get up close and personal for my shots, I may well be taking a move action to get within 30' and dealing multiple d8s and d6s worth of damage plus 5 or more without sacrificing to hit (for deadly aim) and while having a strength modifier of +0. That still leaves a lot of room to grow his damage.
But that's later. Looks like Rapid Shot is the way to go today.
Sorry folks, things have been crazy recently. I'll be updating my character soon. I get Tactician this level, so I'm debating which feat to take. Here's what I'm looking at, and if you have some thoughts, please let me know!
Distracting Charge: passing this out would grant an additional +2 to hit targets that have already been charged this round. We have a lot of melee fighters, so that plays to our strengths.
Escape Route: Moving through allies does not provoke AoOs. This would give us tactical advantage during fights - set up flanks, get out of bad positions, etc.
Shake It Off: Gain saving throw bonuses. Might be of lesser importance, especially right now, but our Will saves will be poor throughout the life of the game, and anything we can do to bolster that is a good idea.
Stealth Synergy: Take the highest Stealth check for our group, and use that for all of us. I kinda like this option, since our group will probably be gravitating towards heavy armor, and anything we can do to mitigate the clankiness is attractive.
Volley Fire: Another way to shore up our weaknesses. We're strong on melee, and up until recently, light on ranged. This would give us strong bonuses to ranged attacks in the inevitable flying creature encounters.
Precise Strike is not on here, as I don't have a Dex 13+.
We should get some mileage from Stealth Synergy, for sure. How does it work with character-specific bonus and penalties? If I manage an unmodified check of 20 before accounting for armor and that's the best check in the group, does Iteb use my unmodified check but her armor penalty, for example?
The whole group uses the highest d20 roll of any roller, but applies their own modifiers. So if Aerel and Iteb both roll, and Iteb gets a 17 on the die and Aerel an 8, then you both use Iteb's 17 and add your own bonuses, for a total of (17 + 6) = 23 for Aerel and a (17 + 0) = 17 for Iteb.
Ok, it's like getting to reroll your check however many times there are people rolling. Got it.
That's pretty nice. I might prefer Shake It Off, though. As you point out, Will saves are always going to be low. Neither one is a bad option, though.
In the USA, it is Father's Day. Happy Father's Day to any of you that have achieved that distinction and to the men in your life that have earned it, as well.
Peace.
Go ahead and level up now.
Just looked at the second tab on the loot list - didn't want to display for me until I logged in for some reason - and I see someone's done most of what I had in mind. I don't know if my additional thoughts are necessary.
I like that (I think) someone was working on probabilities of achieving a particular result from the survival rolls. Very nice.
I'm thinking that we have some high priorities that might inform the decision of how much food to use today - find a campsite, build long-term shelters at the campsite, and start collecting food.
We could have everyone take a full ration so they are working at their best, a half ration to keep them alive longer but not working at their best, or a combination of the two, including alternating days when someone would get a full portion. That is - every two people get 1.5 provisions a day, trading off who got the full portion. (Accounting nightmare, only suggested for completeness)
Full provisions would only last into the third day, I believe. Would that be long enough for us to have our food-gathering up to speed to maintain future consumption? Seems like there might be a chance of it, but we need to get the shelters, too, to avoid fatigue penalties, so we have to divide our resources to accomplish both tasks. The good news is that once the campsite is found, the shelter-building process is more straightforward, based on the DC.
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I only added the loot from the loot list the GM provided on the previous page. Anything he listed on RP text i think i might have missed. I did hear about the cold-iron stuff, but never added that so you're right about it not being on there for that reason.
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As for food distribution, I'll have to take another look at the group. I didn't know half-serving provisions was on the table. Now that i do, i think it may be best for a full-day of travel (meaning no skill checks for food gathering the first day). Iteb will suggest that everyone (except for Gareth who apparently needs his strength) takes a half-provision the first day and will follow suit herself to show she's willing to follow her own restrictive diet regimen. Will make a post shortly.
Another thought - does anyone have trail rations from their original equipment? That would appear to bolster provisions a bit. Aerel was kitted with five days' rations, so he will forego any of the group's provisions for the moment.
I found the scimitar when I looked again, so I put a note asking if Aerel could claim it and the mw buckler.
Half-provisions while traveling is not a bad idea, if the rules allow it. You guys had done the math and determined that gathering the herds wasn't really cost-effective, if I remember correctly, is that right?
How much time do we need to have, Shisumo, to build long-term shelters?
And last thing for tonight - Aerel is leveled up to second. Nice to be able to do that once in a timely manner and not be the one everyone is waiting for a week later.
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That sheet is for our convenience. Just create a short note on the side that you took it, and take it off. Everyone has the chance to look and put things in, order take things out. Just make a note if it's a high-ticket item so we know where it went-- until we figure out what to do with the rest of the stuff on there.
I was working on a sheet to distribute NPCs before. I gave up on that, though that did lead into me playing with probabilities based on survival skill. Also, i didn't even think about trail rations. I'll gladly throw those of her own kit into the pack for 5 days of provisions. If everyone does that, we'll be effectively 25 (30 for gareth's?) provision points stronger.
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I believe everyone (and NPCS) have only one thing they can do during the day, meaning long-term shelters, scavenging, scouting etc. Until the GM drops another tidbit changing the way I'm organizing these things in my head, like half-provisions.
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Also, even though we're most likely going to be traveling all day, could we get the Adepts and Aubrin to each prepare detect magic and have a go at spellcrafting the items we don't know what are?
You can definitely convert your pre-bought rations into Provision Points.
If your plans for long-term viability ate predicated on teaching everyone Survival, I feel I should tell you that, by and large, you have the skill resources now that you will ever have for the life of this subsystem. The general rule of NPCs gaining levels is they don't. You guys, as PCs, can affect that somewhat, but I highly recommend you assume you won't be able to train anyone in Survival soon enough for it to matter.
I assume that Spellcraft checks will be part of the morning rituals at this point.
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I checked and everyone has 5 trail rations except jeb (who i don't see a kit for either). That'll be another 25 provisions to add to the 83 for a total of 108.
The trained survivalists earn 24/day by just themselves on a normal day of hunting and foraging. Those i listed in the second two groups above, with the -2, still come out to 12.5/day between the 10 of them. That alone ideally will take care of the 36/day necessary to keep us afloat. Other NPCs or even ourselves (since again, not considering PCs in getting things self-sufficient) can help bolster this number if we get less than a couple full-days worth of provisions, such as how we'll be low when we first get our camp set up.
At the same time, i wanted at least a couple good scouts, and since the small people don't cut it with their -2, we may want to shift more untrained into survival so they can scout out and about. My new thoughts are below for after our shelters are set up, minus a lot of information to shorten clutter.
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Foraging 5 Good Survivalists, for about 17.5/day
Kining (Survival +6)
Jet (Survival +5)
Netthias (Survival +5)
Farrow (Unfriendly Survival +4)
Clidon (Unfriendly Survival +4)
15 people into foraging, without survival (-2) for about 18.5/day
Clem , Mako Kusk , Mershan , Andrum , Negan Kusk , Lirosa , Taidel , Toriya , Rori , Varesha , Imiraq , Mori , Ragam Gardaxe , Sanna Gardaxe , Gerard Gardaxe
Scouting 2 scouts selected from the foraging group, for the sake of getting a lay of the land.
Fiosha (Survival +4)
Harvel (Stealth +4 Survival +4)
Standing Watch Decent perception, no survival
Phersi (hp 3, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +1, Perception +6)
Minshiel (hp 2, AC 11, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +0, Perception +6)
Geerum (hp 4, att/dam +1/1d4+1, Con +2, Perception +5)
Tanram (hp 3, AC 12, att/dam +2/1d3, Con +1, Perception +6)
Support Team 4 in support, selected for their practicality of understanding magic, where we do not.
Rhyna (adept 2, Spellcraft +5)
Salesi (adept 1, Spellcraft +4)
Yangvit (adept 1, Spellcraft +4)
Aubrin (Cleric 3, Skills?)
Unconsidered
All six of us, including Gareth (who i don't know how to deal with).
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Summary:
Day one, we travel for the full day to make distacne. We'll lose -36 provisions, to 72. We need the strength for travel (and temporary shelter creating again at the end of this day)
Day two, everyone with survival is making more long-term shelter and gets full provisions only, everyone who is not gets half-day provisions. We won't be scouting since we're just setting up, and the hungry foragers will only bring in 12 provision points, meaning a net -12.5 down to 59.5. Will take everyone with survival, and we'll still barely get to 31 (+33 with the tents we have) of the necessary 35 shelter points. Working with averages (as i have been this entire time) even without skill, should Bunko and the support crew join us in this, we should be able to etch out creating shelters on one day.
Day three, assuming we did good with the shelters, everyone goes to standard orders as above. We will help them get provision points back to a more reasonable buffer. At the end of this day, we should also do a more serious discussion about future plans on what to do about Phaendar, assuming all if well in the camp.
Switching the untrained foragers to animal husbandry roughly doubles their potential food output.
Aerel will continue trying to make inroads with Clidon and Farrow to improve their morale.
What is the plan for the 5/6 PC's if we assign NPC's as described?
Switching the untrained foragers to animal husbandry roughly doubles their potential food output.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
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If animal handlers with +4 go out and get animals to just butcher, they gets an animal 45% of the time, and gaining 2 provision points from it, meaning about 0.9 provision points per day.
If they instead are keeping animals (say, taking ten) they can keep 4 animals at dc 14. This means 4 provisions over 3 days, or 1.33 provisions per day, but we also have to acquire the animals to start with. This is a huge loss and not worth the .08 or so more we get given time to acquire them. If we just so happen to come across some, sure, it's more consistent with take ten.
If they choose, instead, to go out into the wilderness, untrained and -2 though they be, they'll get 1.25 provisions per day. I'm not actually trying to meta the system here, it's was just blaring to me out the gate when i saw that "1 provision point per 3 days" bit, and how difficult they are to get and maintain, that i decided to run the numbers.
Until you drop bring in another new feature i don't have access to yet, or there's a typo in the Herding dc and benefits, untrained foragers are much better off than diverting their skill into animal husbandry.
@Aerel, Until day Four, i assume we're generally helping things get settled, and really try to strategize what to do at the end of day three.
Hey guys, super sorry I didn't check in the last couple days (or week?) My computer died, so I had trouble accessing the site.
As for the relatively lacklustre benefits of handle animal, we might make use of the Retraining Rules to customize some of the militia members? DM permitting, of course.
Skill Ranks
You can retrain skill ranks you have assigned to skills. Retraining skill ranks takes 5 days. When the training period ends, reassign a number of skill ranks up to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), removing them from your existing skill (or skills) and adding them to a different skill (or skills).
If retraining skill ranks means you no longer qualify for a feat or other ability you have, you can’t use that feat or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (Or you can retrain that feat or other ability.)
If we're allowed to make use of the retraining rules at all, it might be interesting, beyond retraining handle animal to survival, to have the commoners or at least the more promising of them, retrain into warrior levels. We've more swords than people who know how to wield them, at this point, and if we're ever going to strike back at the hobgoblins in any capacity, well. The hobgoblin legionnaires are at least warrior 2's, going by their hit points.
All that said, the retraining proccess *is* supposed to cost a small amount of money, so I could see it being off limits while we're out in the woods.
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I don't know if retraining is up for us, in regards to messing with the NPC skills. As you say, even if it were, we'd need to devote the time to train them and figure out how we could make do with the gold costs... I do agree, getting some warriors out of em' wouldn't be a bad idea though. If that were a possibility.
For now, Iteb kind of wants to investigate the troglodytes, thinking they may be an issue.
The retraining rules are not available for NPCs. Which is not to say that you won't have some control over how your refugee followers develop, but it won't be through those rules.
Rather than keep you in suspense, here's what the adventure says about developing your followers:
Over the course of this adventure, the PCs will gain promotions they can assign the NPCs of their choice. A promotion allows an NPC to retrain to another NPC class (most often allowing Commoners to retrain into Adepts, Aristocrats, Experts, or Warriors), or to gain a level in their current class. An NPC cannot retrain into a base class unless a PC specifically selects that character as a companion with options such as the Leadership feat. An NPC cannot be promoted to be higher level than the PCs.
Where and when you gain promotions remains information that I am keeping to myself for now, but it's basically story-based events. I will, however, stipulate that you can completely design the entire statblock for any NPC you assign a promotion to.
I played with the NPC sheet a bit. Don't know that it really gained much, but we can spot who has a skill easier this way. I wanted to try it to see how beneficial it might be.
Figured I should own up to it in case someone didn't like my handiwork.
You can't, but Aerel was suggesting sending scouts ahead of the whole group, if I understood him correctly.
Aye, I was thinking to have a smaller, faster group leading to find potential faster routes and avoid things that would slow us down, like surveyors planning the rail lines in the old west.
Perhaps unnecessary detail, of course.