Why only 2 Skill Ranks?

Anyway, I've said all I wish to say on the topic. The skill ranks are what they are, and that's not going to change in the official rules. If folks want to houserule changes and then play them, I'm VERY interested to hear how that worked out, because that's actual playtest results and very useful to me.

But academic arguments on how things look on paper without having seen them in play, including arguments about theoretical character balance, aren't as useful now that the core rules are no longer in beta.

I've considered the following change to the skill rule:

You get your class skills+(choose any stat) per level.
For the bonus skills, those skill points *must* be spent on skills that are modified by the stat chosen. Any skill points not able to be spent this way are lost.
Human and Favored Class bonuses can be spent on any skill.

However, I'm not sure how well that ends up working, as the skills are broken down like so:

Strength (2 skills)
Dexterity (7 skills)
Constitution (0 skills)
Intelligence (14 skills, plus multiple types of crafting)
Wisdom (5 skills, plus multiple types of profession)
Charisma (6 skills, plus multiple types of perform)

So, fighters with 2+strength will end up getting Swim and Climb maxed out, and can use their other 2-4 points/level anywhere they like. Dexterity-based fighters, though, have a lot more options.

Wizards with a 36 int can have LOTS of int-based skills, but only a couple of non-int skills.

I think this idea has some legs, but I haven't played it to see.

also it makes the rogues (having alot of skill) advantage less awesome.

Rogues have problems of their own kind. D20 system does not treat kindly characters with skills at higher levels, as most of skill challenges are easier to bypass using spells.

That said, actually Rogues achieve quite a lot under this proposal:
- Wizards (and possibly other characters with higher Intelligence score or of human heritage) are no longer getting more skill points just because of their key stat
- Rogues gain double base skill points
- Rogues have large selection of class skills
- two important Rogue abilities (Dexterity and Strength, or Dexterity and Charisma) are quite important for key class skills

Wizard, 10th level, Human, 24 Intelligence (favored class bonus put into hitpoints): 57 skill points (previously: 2 x 10 + 5 x 10 [assuming 20 base Intelligence] + 1 x 10 = 80 skill points, + two free maxed skills from Intelligence boosting item +4)
Rogue, 10th level, Elf, 10 Intelligence (favored class bonus put into hitpoints): 80 skill points.

Regards,
Ruemere

Anyway, I've said all I wish to say on the topic. The skill ranks are what they are, and that's not going to change in the official rules. If folks want to houserule changes and then play them, I'm VERY interested to hear how that worked out, because that's actual playtest results and very useful to me.

But academic arguments on how things look on paper without having seen them in play, including arguments about theoretical character balance, aren't as useful now that the core rules are no longer in beta.

I am most of the way through running Curse of the Crimson Throne, we start Skeletons next session, and I gave my player 2 additional skill points per level and two additional class skills to be picked from Professions, Crafts, Performs, and Knowledges. These choices had to be backed up by character back-story. One example is Mikhail a Chelaxian Rogue who wields the War Razor. One of his choices was Profession Barber. Prior to the events of the AP he made his living as a barber. He also got nick-named the "Devil Barber of Wave Street."

I have found that the extra skill points have not been unbalancing and they gave my players the opportunity to pick skills that were not "useful" but that were still flavorful for the character.

Another example is that a couple of them chose Knowledge(Local), which was not a class skill for them, to represent growing up in Korvosa. If people are really interested I can try to remember to look up what the full suite of choices were and post them.

Graywulfe

northbrb wrote:

one of my issues is i always in-vision every true adventurer being very skillful simply because they are adventurers but i don't in-vision that every adventurer is super smart.

it has always bugged me that if you want a decent number of skills you need to be smart (have a high Int) i have never felt that Int should be the only way to figure skills.

Some RPGs in the 80s had the number of skills you got broken down by ability. For example, a high Dex might net you more Dex related skill points. Honestly, having a high int shouldn't get you jack for Stealth, Acrobatics, etc. But you could easily spend your bonus points on those skills.

Not that I see any good way to apply this to our current situation, I just wanted to point out the correlation.

I'm not sure if this would unbalance things or not(sure it could be abused a little), what if your class got its fixed number of skills like normal which can be used for any skills. But instead of using INT all the time for bonus skill points, you choose what stat you want to use as your bonus every level, but all skills from bonus must be from that ability. STR and CON don't do much or anything for skills but those stats are already very important. You might want to lower class skill points to balance the extra skills from using different bonuses(and maybe use a lower stat to fill certain skills in other abilities).

Classes that start at
2+Int / 1+chosen stat
4+Int / 2+chosen stat
6+Int / 4+chosen stat
8+Int / 6+chosen stat

Maybe get rid of the 1+chosen(move up to 2) and just have 2/4/6. It shouldn't hurt the rogue as he could use his DEX stat for several of his bonus skills as the only class getting 6 class ranks to use anywhere.

I think the RAW is balanced well and generally works for the game. I doubt making the min 4+ Int/level would unbalance classes to the point of overpowered… except with a large party (5+ PCs). I could see it becoming a little much after low levels and not just for wizards. Maybe a free skill trait at first level would work? Get the boost when you really need it and no risk of it snowballing into a problem where wizards, fighters, et all are cramping the skilly-classes style. Besides in large groups the party is going to have everything except some of the knowledges covered by about 5th level , so everyone doesn’t need to be versatile but also has more freedom with their skill point choices, even without a boost.

I’ve been in some campaigns however that worked better due to houseruled extra skill points. We’ve made crafts and professions, or other specific skills that were important to the setting/story class skills for everyone. We’ve also given extra skill points due to a small party (2 or 3 PCs). The thing all these rules had in common is that everyone got the same benefit… more or less, we felt. True if something was already a class skill for you, and now everyone gets it as a class skill, it is a nurf. But you are cool with it because you want the sorcerer to have a decent chance to not drown in the pirate campaign.

These house rules mind you were for 3.5. I both as player and GM experienced the significant difference extra class skills or skill points can make. It was not unmanageable and actually improved the experience from both sides of the screen in those games. But it did make a noticeable, life-or-death even, difference. Adding them to the PF system would not have the same effect, but I suspect it would be noticeable, not necessarily in a bad way though.

really like that idea graywulf kind of adds some flavor to your character creation. similar to the traits in players guide. not that im gonna use it (never really liked skills playing a rogue was far to much for me although the way their set up now its alot more preferable with skills combined and 1 point ranks

Anyway, I've said all I wish to say on the topic. The skill ranks are what they are, and that's not going to change in the official rules. If folks want to houserule changes and then play them, I'm VERY interested to hear how that worked out, because that's actual playtest results and very useful to me.

But academic arguments on how things look on paper without having seen them in play, including arguments about theoretical character balance, aren't as useful now that the core rules are no longer in beta.

I am most of the way through running Curse of the Crimson Throne, we start Skeletons next session, and I gave my player 2 additional skill points per level and two additional class skills to be picked from Professions, Crafts, Performs, and Knowledges. These choices had to be backed up by character back-story. One example is Mikhail a Chelaxian Rogue who wields the War Razor. One of his choices was Profession Barber. Prior to the events of the AP he made his living as a barber. He also got nick-named the "Devil Barber of Wave Street."

I have found that the extra skill points have not been unbalancing and they gave my players the opportunity to pick skills that were not "useful" but that were still flavorful for the character.

Another example is that a couple of them chose Knowledge(Local), which was not a class skill for them, to represent growing up in Korvosa. If people are really interested I can try to remember to look up what the full suite of choices were and post them.

Graywulfe

I gave out 4 free Knowledge local skill point with with people having to chose between: Knowledge : Korvosa (all the city, but no special knowledge of hidden feature of a district; Knowledge: [specific district] (the character know hide-holes, hidden passages, backstreets and people of the district but any roll against the whole city is penalized) and, for the ranger only Knowledge: Korvosan territory (about 30-50 miles around the city).

For me when you are speaking of Knowledge: local it is very specific but you need only a few levels to get a good knowledge of the location. It is the skill you should get for the time spent in the location, more than for the allocation of skill points.